Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs Supplementary Information for the Department Expenditures 2003-2004.

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

Today marks the second anniversary of the September 11, 2001 tragic attack that took place in New York, in Washington, D.C., and in Pennsylvania. On this day two years ago, almost 3000 innocent people were taken from us as a result of a terrible act of aggression and cowardice. One of the innocents was a Manitoban, Christine Egan.

No one will forget the horrible images of planes flying into the World Trade Centre tower, the flaming, charring wing of the Pentagon or the shattered debris on the burning field in Pennsylvania. No one will forget these horrible images, but I am proud to note that we will always remember the heroes of that day, the emergency responders, the police, firefighters, military and ordinary citizens who put their lives at risk to save others whom they had never met. I am proud that, in the immediate wake of the tragedy, Manitoba stood side by side with our neighbours by taking in stranded travellers, giving blood and sending a book of condolences to the American people.

This week in Manitoba we mark Emergency Responders Week, partly to honour the sacrifices of all emergency responders but also to outline that serious dangers are an every day reality for them on their job. At this time, I would like to ask for leave to observe a moment's silence in honour of the sacrifices of those who lost their lives on September 11 and to offer silent thoughts and prayers to the families who grieve for them today.

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Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I want to respond on behalf of this side of the House, on behalf of all Manitobans in respect to the events of that horrible September 11. I do not think ever in history have we seen that kind of horror and tragedy unfold before our eyes as we did that day. While many people believe that the strife around the world can only occur somewhere else, I think we all realized that day how much we all have at stake in terms of peace in this world and caring for our fellow man.

We join with our American neighbours, our friends and our allies to express our condolences. At this time, we join as well to express our friendship and the shared loss that there was around the world to people who suffered and died needlessly that day. It was with great sacrifice and with great pride around the world that everybody saw the police, the firefighters, the military and all of those who responded that day, but it is a reminder that we all must stand together in the name of peace and friendship. I want to join the Government today in respecting and remembering those who lost their lives on September 11.

Mr. Speaker: Please rise for a moment of silence.

Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, one of the most disappointing actions of this Minister of Agriculture and her Premier (Mr. Doer) is her sad attempt to tell Manitobans the Agricultural Policy Framework may provide some cash relief in the short term to the cattle producers of this province. She knows, or she ought to know, that it would not happen soon.

The families out in rural Manitoba, the cattlemen in this province, have been brought to their knees by lack of cash. Has she given up entirely on the cattle business in this province, Mr. Speaker, or is she prepared to step up to the plate and provide some cash advance?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I recognize the cattle industry is a very important industry in this province. I recognize that, with the border closure, there is a cash flow problem. That is why we put in place $100 million of loan authority that will allow producers to borrow $50,000 at low interest rates. In Manitoba they can borrow that money at 3.25 percent and young farmers can buy it at 2.25 percent. In Alberta they are paying 5 percent.

Under the previous administration when they put a loan program to help producers, Mr. Speaker, it was at the prevailing rate and they were lending money to producers that needed cash badly at 6 percent, at the prevailing rate. They have not recognized–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Cummings: It is so obvious that this minister does not understand the problem in rural Manitoba. They are being brought to their knees by lack of cash flow and she wants to play the blame game. Cattle are worth $300 a head more in Alberta. Deal with that problem if you want to do something.

Mr. Speaker, it is a sad day in this province when the Minister of Agriculture stands up and uses the Policy Framework as a way of misleading Manitobans, I would say deliberately misleading Manitobans, into thinking she is doing something.

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Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. All honourable members know that parliamentary language is very important for the smooth function of this House and many, many speakers have ruled "deliberately misleading" as out of order. I would kindly ask the honourable Member for Ste. Rose to please withdraw that comment.

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, when you are consumed with anger and disappointment about what this Government is doing, you choose the wrong words and for that I apologize.

Mr. Speaker: That should be the end of the matter and I would like to thank the honourable member for that. Has the honourable member concluded his question?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, she has not provided a quick cash flow relief to the cattle producers of this province. She has to do something or we will lose many.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, this Government has recognized the issue and this Government has taken steps.

We have put in place $100 million in loaning. I can tell the member that, as of yesterday, 140 people had their loans approved. They are coming in every day. They are filling out their applications and loans are being approved, Mr. Speaker.

As well, we put in $15 million in the slaughter program and the feed assistance program. We have put in $2 million into improving the slaughter capacity in this province. We have $43 million on the table to flow to producers through the APF.

Mr. Speaker, if you total that up, that is about $160 million that we have on the table. It is time we got the federal government to recognize that they have a part in this and they have to recognize this disaster.

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, this minister just demonstrated why she must be publicly called on what she is doing. She said she put $15 million into the feed support program. In fact, she only acknowledged 10. Then she says she has only flowed 2 but she wants to stand up in this House and say she put up 15.

She is misleading the people of this province, Mr. Speaker. The time has come. The cattlemen in my riding met with me in June and they said if ever we need government to be involved in our business it is now. We have never asked for government involvement directly. We have always been free traders. The time is now. Will she step up to the plate or will she continue to mislead the people of this province?

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the Province has stepped up to the plate. You know, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) said that we should put in a low-interest loan program. We put in a low-interest loan program.

If the people opposite wanted to help farmers, they would encourage them to take the loan program and use it as a bridge until the other money started to flow. There is money that is going to flow out of the $600 million from the federal government. There is money that is going to flow through the APF. We have agreement from the federal government that an interim payment will flow. When the federal government will come to sign, that money will start to flow. The federal minister has said in his statement, and this is his statement, not mine, that forms will be available in September and payments are expected to reach producers in early October. That his statement–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, drought has razed many regions of this province including the northern part of my constituency. The drought has compounded the hurt arising from the BSE crisis. As a result, more than 30 municipalities have made application for disaster assistance. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House when this Government will come to the table with a disaster relief program for those affected?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, the municipalities have declared disaster. I want to tell this House that we have met with those municipalities, we have talked about the situation and they have made suggestions on how we can deal with this situation. It is producers, municipalities and the provincial government that are working together to try to resolve this problem. What we need is the federal government at the table. Right now we need another partner at the table with us. We recognize the situation, the drought situation and, as the Premier said yesterday, we are looking at options on how we can address that situation and we will address it. What we need is the federal government to also recognize that this is a national disaster. It is a national disaster that needs national leadership and we have not been able to get the federal government to the table.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, I have received calls from desperate ranchers such as Kris Bigfusson of Lundar, Ross Jermey of Ashern and many more just like them who live in the drought-affected areas. They cannot buy their hay. They cannot pay their taxes. Even worse, they cannot sell their cattle.

Will the Minister of Agriculture tell farm families like the Bigfussons and the Jermeys why she is abandoning them and others? Will she meet with them and explain why she refuses to provide them with a sorely needed cash advance program?

* (13:45)

Ms. Wowchuk: Well, in case the member has not noticed, I have been meeting with producers and I have met with producers right across the province. In case he does not know, the people cannot sell their cattle because the border is closed. That is an issue that is very important and one that we should be focussing all our attention on. The member talks about people not being able to buy hay. That is why we put the loan program in. People told us they needed cash. They needed to be able to make a decision. We have put cash–[interjection]

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Ms. Wowchuk: We have put a loan program at very low interest rates in place to allow people to have a cash flow in order that they can make those decisions on how to buy, where to buy their hay, what to do, how to pay their bills. This is a bridge to help them through until other programs come in.

Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, for days the Premier has been promising a transportation program to help drought-stricken producers who have not got the financial resources to transport critically needed feed for their cattle. Promises do not put hay in the bellies of calves. Will the Minister of Agriculture tell this House why her Government has failed to deliver on the transportation program?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I know what producers are going through. I have met with them. I have talked to them about the situation and that they need cash flow. That is why we put in place $100 million that producers can access so they can make their decisions as to whether to purchase hay, whether to move hay, whether to move their cattle and the program is working. Mr. Speaker, 140 farmers have accessed the program and many more are making their applications. This is a bridge to get us through until other monies flow from the federal government. The federal government has a responsibility here. The federal government has $600 million that they are holding back. That money has to flow and money has to flow through the APF as the federal minister promised us.

Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, the BSE and drought crisis in Manitoba today affects the day-to-day lives of thousands of families in our province. More than 30 municipalities have declared themselves disaster zones, and there are constant concerns growing over the ability of affected families to pay their education taxes in their local communities.

My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. How does her Government expect the people to pay for the education portion of their property taxes when they can barely afford to put food on the table for their children?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): We have put money on the table. We have put money in place to help producers bridge until additional money flows, until the border opens, until animals start to go to slaughter. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, with boxed beef starting to go into the United States, more animals are going to slaughter.

We have addressed the issue. We need the federal government at the table with us, and I would ask the Opposition to think about what role they can play in supporting this Government as we put pressure on the federal government rather than looking for other options. The cash is there. Mr. Speaker, $160 million is a lot of money, and people are using the $100 million despite the fact that the Opposition continues to say that it is not a good program. It is better than programs they ever put in place.

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Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, it is time for this minister to get the money off her table and in the hands of the farmers who need it.

Mr. Speaker, the R.M. of Albert has gone so far as to pass a resolution to withhold the education taxes on assessed farmlands from their local school division because farmers affected by these crises simply cannot afford to pay these property tax bills. Other municipalities may be forced to follow suit.

My question for the Minister of Agriculture is: Is her Government willing to compensate for the lost revenue for the school boards to ensure that the quality of education does not decline and that our children's education is not jeopardized in our province?

Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is really interesting that the Opposition is interested in the property taxes that farmers have to pay when it was their government that raised the portioning of the amount of taxes farmers would pay. It was the NDP government that reduced the portioning for farmers so that they would pay less taxes. It was the NDP government that increased the property tax credits. So they cannot say that they are the ones that care about taxes. It is this Government that reduced the portioning. It is this Government that increased property tax credits to help producers. They raised it to 30 percent. We lowered it to 27 percent and we have put cash on the table. Farmers are taking that cash. They should be encouraging farmers to take that cash.

Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, my question again for the Minister of Agriculture. When will this Government recognize the seriousness of this issue, implement a cash advance program to ensure that the quality of education for our children in these communities is not jeopardized as a result of the incompetence of this Government to deal with this issue for all Manitobans?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Well, again, Mr. Speaker, there is a split in that caucus. Their leader says put in a cash advance or a low-interest loan. We put in a low-interest loan; now they are saying put in a cash advance. You know, they cannot make up their minds what they want.

We have put in a low-interest loan, lower interest than they have ever put in place. I can list you many actions that our Government has taken that show that we care about rural Manitobans, and we are making a difference in rural Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. This is a national crisis. This is a national disaster. We have made available cash for the producers. We have $160 million that is there to help our producers, money in the APF Program, money in the slaughter deficiency program, and money in–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, during the flood of 1997, the Filmon government set up flood recovery information offices to deal with the crisis. Staffed by several departments, these offices provided people in crisis with counselling information and support.

Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House how many times an interdepartmental committee has met, comprised of the departments of Agriculture, Health, Family Services, Education, Emergency Measures to provide support and services to producers dealing with the BSE crisis?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I can tell all members of this House that on May 20, when the first case of BSE was detected, on that day we started with an interdepartmental team that would look at the issue and that team has been working on an ongoing basis.

I can also tell you, Mr. Speaker, that long before BSE came about, we recognized there was need for services in rural Manitoba. That is why we reinstated the farm and rural stress line that that government took away. We brought services in rural Manitoba. I can tell you that the Department of Agriculture throughout the province is working with other departments to ensure services are available for people across the province.

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Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, I find that answer incredible. Neither the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Caldwell) nor the Minister of Education (Mr. Lemieux) could provide answers to the questions posed to them in the last two days.

Can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House: Why, after nearly four months into this crisis, has this Government failed to take the governmental approach to dealing with one of the biggest crises facing Manitoba agriculture in several decades?

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I will repeat my answer. On May 20, when we found out about that one case of BSE that was detected in Alberta, we knew that there was going to be a very difficult situation for Manitoba farmers. On that day we decided to put together an interdepartmental team. That team has been at work and will continue to be at work and has met many times to discuss the various issues that arise because of this terrible situation.

Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, agriculture is essential to Manitoba's social and economic well being. The BSE crisis and the drought have put farm families and this industry in jeopardy. One farm family recently wrote that the Doer government is not only destroying agriculture but also many families.

Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House how many more farm families the Doer government is prepared to destroy before they provide real assistance such as cash advances to struggling producers?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, on May 20, when this first case of BSE was detected, we put together an interdepartmental team to work on this issue and they have been working.

Mr. Speaker, right after the election, I was in Kelowna with the Premier and we talked about BSE and the importance of putting support in for families.

Mr. Speaker, our money is on the table. We have $100 million in cash that is available for producers to use. We have $43 million that will be available to make payments to producers through the APF. We have put in place the slaughter program and the feed assistance program. We have put money in place to enhance the slaughter capacity. All our money is on the table. We are there.

Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): This Government's handling of the BSE crisis has been a disaster. The BSE recovery program came up short. The slaughter program did not work. The feeder program was yanked. The loans program is a failure. There is no plan. There is no hope and soon there will be no livestock producers. When will the Minister of Agriculture recognize that her so-called plans to save our livestock industry are not working and provide producers with a much needed cash advance program?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, this Opposition has a record of changing their minds and just criticizing. They put on the table, in a letter, that they want a loan program or a cash advance. We have put in a loan program. There is a hundred million dollars available. As of today, there are 140 producers who have accessed that money and over $5 million has flowed. This is a cash flow. This is the money that producers need to help them bridge through until such time as the border opens, until there is more slaughtering happening or the federal government decides to flow the money, the $600 million that they have or the money through the APF, where the Province's money share of $42 million is on the table.

Mr. Penner: The Manitoba Cattle Producers Association, the association of municipalities, chambers of commerce, community organizations, farm organizations across this province have asked this minister and have asked this Government to implement a cash advance program. Why will this minister and her Government stubbornly refuse to put a cash advance program in place that will flow money to producers in this province of Manitoba and save the cattle industry?

* (14:00)

Ms. Wowchuk: Producers, municipalities and the Province have been working very hard to come up with solutions for this problem. The federal government must take a share of the burden that producers, municipalities and the Province are carrying right now.

But, Mr. Speaker, what we need is the Opposition to support what we are doing. We are doing what they asked for. The Opposition asked for a low-interest loan. They asked for that. Producers asked for that. Now they have flipped and flopped and they are saying oh, no, a loan program is not good; let us change it to a cash advance.

The money is flowing. Our money, our cash is on the table.

Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Livestock producers do not have any money to feed their families or their cattle. There could be severe starvation of cattle on the farms of Manitoba this winter unless this Government makes some changes to the program and advances money. They cannot pay their utilities or their fuel bills. They have failed the families like the Coulsons and the countless others in this province.

Will the minister now do the right thing and tender her resignation to this Legislative Assembly?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I guess I would ask the member if he is the one who is promoting a deficit in this province, because that is what I see him doing. Although they introduced balanced budget legislation, it is that member who is promoting a deficit in this province. Shame on him, Mr. Speaker. Contrary to what his leader says he is promoting a deficit.

We are working with the producers, with the municipalities, all working together to come to solutions. The cash is on the table. He talks about people needing money to buy clothes and to pay their Hydro bills. They can apply to MACC as many are, and get $50,000 in cash to help them bridge through until such time as the border opens, as animals start to sell or other money comes from the federal government.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, it has become clear after a week of questions that this Minister of Agriculture is unwilling to save the cattle industry for the less than $20 million needed. She is unwilling to save the cattle industry.

Since she refuses to act, and if the border remains closed, what does she expect the cattle producers of Manitoba to do this winter?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Well, Mr. Speaker, we have been working since May 20 on this issue. The most important issue that we can work on is to get the border open, and I was very pleased when there was partial opening of the border and some products started to move. That is what producers want, that is what we need is to get back to a normal situation where animals move across the border.

The member asks for $20 million. We have done far more than that. We have $160 million on the table. We have programs in place that flow cash to producers and producers are taking advantage of the programs. I want to commend the MACC staff for the way they are handling those applications so quickly.

Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): On Tuesday, the Minister of Agriculture stated she would be meeting with her federal counterpart to develop a national cull strategy. Since the minister will not act to save the industry, since she is unwilling to act to save this industry, is the minister now advocating for a mass burial of cattle in Manitoba, or are there other options such as a food aid program that she is going to be bringing forward to her federal counterpart?

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Everyone knows that in the cattle industry there is a certain percentage of cull. About 10 percent of animals are culled every year. Normally these animals go to the United States for slaughter because our slaughter capacity is not large enough in this province. So, Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions. I wrote to the federal minister over a month ago asking him to put a team together, a national team together to look at how we would have a national cull-cow strategy. That issue has not been addressed. We had no response from the federal minister until last week. Last week we finally got a call from the federal minister saying there is a plan, that we are going to have a meeting to talk about cull cows. This is a very serious issue. It has to be addressed on a national basis.

Mr. Goertzen: The minister now has admitted she is presiding over the burial of the industry, so my question now is for the Minister of Conservation. Has the minister's department provided a report on the environmental impact and which land is now being considered, since there are discussions taking place, if the Minister of Agriculture moves forward on a burial program because she refuses to save the cattle industry in Manitoba?

Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Conservation I think it is important for the member to recognize we are dealing with a series of difficulties. I think we are all aware in this House of the difficulties facing the families that are involved. We are also dealing with ramifications, as the minister pointed out, of an industry in which every year there is a cull of approximately 10 percent of the cattle, the breeder cows. That is normally done by shipping the cattle to the U.S. for processing. Clearly, again, that is caught up in this difficulty because of the BSE situation which is preventing the shipment of cattle generally. I might add it is also proving to be a problem for cervids, for other animals such as elk. Our Department of Conservation has been working very closely with the Department of Agriculture to look at options, and I think it has to be recognized–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Industry. Dominion Tanners went into bankruptcy on July 25. Dominion Tanners operated in this province for decades. There were over 50 families that were affected by that bankruptcy. When I met with representatives of the union and workers, I was really disappointed to find out that this Government, a government that claims to be there for the working man, a government that claims to be there for the people, was an absolute farce. This Government was nowhere to be seen.

The question that they posed to me was a very good question. Why would a government get involved with Motor Coach but have absolutely nothing to do with Dominion Tanners when it faces bankruptcy, when dozens of families are told the day before not to bother to come in to work?

Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): There are times when industries go through phases of bankruptcy and there are certain situations–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Ms. Mihychuk: The procedure that the department and the Government uses is to work with every situation which is facing crisis. At times there are plans to restructure, to find additional capital to infuse the company. Sometimes it is a situation where the businesses can no longer be competitive and we try to transition the workers into more long-term and successful opportunities.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister: When was this Government aware of the problems at Dominion Tanners or was it even aware of it? If it was aware, why did this Government not intervene in any fashion whatsoever? Till this date, they still have not met with the workers. Why has this Government given up on the former workers of Dominion Tanners?

Ms. Mihychuk: Any time that a business is reducing in numbers, the Department of Labour is notified. Various procedures are set up for retraining and opportunities for workers to find other employment. If a company is looking for restructuring or for an infusion of capital or if there is a way for us to facilitate its successful continuation, we will do everything we can as we have for other projects in the province from the North to the Interlake to Winnipeg, as members in this House know.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, what this Government is proving is that if a Manitoban, whether it is in the cattle industry, whether it is in the manufacturing industry, is having a problem during the summertime, you are out of luck. This Government enjoys its summers and believes that it does not have to do anything.

It is shameful that this Government has done absolutely nothing in terms of retraining programs, approached the workers and provided any assistance for an industry that is relied on for many jobs, many contributions, Mr. Speaker. This Government does not even have the courtesy to meet with the workers, does not even have the courtesy to provide alternatives, does not even have the courtesy to pick up the phone, do some consultation, find out what it is that this Government might be able to do in terms of assisting in retraining and so forth. I find especially that it is a New Democratic government, and it appals me that they would neglect–

* (14:10)

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Labour and Immigration): I am not sure how to respond to that; I am not sure if it was a question, Mr. Speaker, other than to indicate that the Department of Labour takes very seriously its responsibilities in terms of workplace adjustment.

I would suggest that if the member is concerned about Dominion Tanners, I would be more than pleased to meet with the member in terms of any of the concerns of the employees. In fact, I would be more than willing to set up a meeting at any time with the department. The labour adjustment process can be very successful.

We take very seriously the situation facing any Manitoban in any area of Manitoba in hardship in the farm sector, in the industrial sector. It is not one plant against another or one sector against another. We are a government for all Manitobans.

Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Consumers' Association of Canada released the largest ever independent examination of auto insurance rates across Canada. Could the Minister responsible for MPI please update us to their findings?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I think it is great that the member chose this issue for her first question in the House. It is my understanding that the Consumers Association of Canada had results that are consistent with other studies and reports on auto insurance in Canada. It is my understanding that they found that auto insurance rates for comparable benefits were the lowest among those jurisdictions with public insurance schemes, then of those schemes I understand that Manitoba had the lowest rates. In fact, I understand that of all the cities canvassed, Winnipeg had the lowest rates in Canada.

Other studies, I look here at the Calgary Herald of August 28, screaming headlines: Alberta auto insurance priciest in West: study. It goes on to say: Rates twice as high as Manitoba. Indeed, public auto insurance and MPI is an important part of the Manitoba–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, twice this week I have stood and asked the Minister of Family Services to take a leadership role and to implement a plan within his department to assist the farm families, and his answers have been hollow and flippant. So I once again ask the Minister of Family Services: Now, after 115 days of crisis, will he instruct his department to formulate a plan to help Manitobans?

Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I again thank the Member for Minnedosa for her question. The member is a new member to this Chamber. She may have missed it this summer, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier and I were at the Great Canadian Beef Barbecue Rally in Brandon. I toured an American legislator, an American senator, throughout western Manitoba to eat Manitoba beef, to experience Canadian beef, to take the message back to his colleagues in the United States that Canadian beef, Manitoba beef is world-class, to bring his colleagues in America who, at the end of the day, are the only ones who can make this decision, to take back to his colleagues in the United States that Canadian beef, Manitoba beef is first-rate and the beef produced in western Manitoba is the best in the world.

Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, during the flood of the century, departments' specific strategies were formed to meet those needs of the families affected. After 115 days, what is the Minister of Family Services plan and who in the department has he given the leadership role to support the 12 000 families in crisis?

Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member may have missed some of the events of this past summer as a new member, but she certainly should not have missed the events of yesterday where this Government put $1.5 million of new money into day care centres in Carberry, a centre from the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed); in Neepawa, a centre from the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings); in Hamiota, five new centres in rural Manitoba for children, $1.5 million in new money, meeting a 5000-seat target that this Government set out for itself a year ago.

We are investing in rural Manitoba. We equalized Hydro rates in the last session. We believe in rural Manitoba. We continue to believe in rural Manitoba and will work hard each and every day in support of rural Manitoba.

Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, the Government is failing these families. He talks about the day cares. I think if you provide the cash advance for the families, they will be able to take the education and the training they need so they can be the workers within these facilities which I understand is also an issue that needs to be addressed. The Family Services Minister is failing these families by not reacting to these needs.

Common sense would imply that a crisis as large as the BSE and drought should require immediate attention. Will the minister today direct his department to get involved, to meet and provide support to the 12 000 families affected by this crisis?

Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I indicated during the course of Estimates this morning, with the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) and other members, that there has been an extensive program that is in place. It has been co-ordinated by all departments to provide assistance to families. If the member would check the Hansard reference, there are some references with respect to the services that are being provided and continue to be provided.

In addition, I might add that we re-put in place the rural and farm stress line as a result of it being removed by the previous government to have a focal point that dealt with particular issues that affect rural families. If the member were to look and check Hansard, she would see that there is some significant reference to the resources that have been put in place. At the same time, we do not want to–

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to rise and speak about a significant day in the history of J.R. Simplot, the city and rural municipalities of Portage la Prairie, and the province of Manitoba.

In June of 2003 Simplot Canada opened the doors on a new potato processing plant in Portage la Prairie and yesterday, September 10, marked the official opening of that plant.

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The Simplot potato processing plant in Portage la Prairie has made Manitoba home to the most efficient state-of-the-art plant of its kind in the world. Manitoba is now the largest potato processor and largest French fry producer in Canada. Farmers in communities like Portage, Treherne, Winkler, Carberry and Holland have helped us to become the second-largest growers of potatoes in the country, and they are significant suppliers of top-quality product to Simplot.

Initially, there will be 200 jobs at this plant, with that number growing to over 300 jobs within 10 years. Combined with the local spending and spin-off benefits this project has already created, the plant promises to be a tremendous asset to farmers in the area and to the rural economy of the area as well.

Mr. Speaker, the Simplot plant is a project that is economically desirable for the company, the city and the province. The plant's new waste water treatment facility is state of the art and will protect our waterways. It is an example of how communities can collaborate to bring economic development into the communities while protecting the environment.

Mr. Speaker, Simplot is another example of an international company that recognizes the opportunities and believes in the future of this province. Simplot has shown that they believe in the strength and capabilities of our workforce and in the producers we have here.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank everyone who has worked so hard to make this plant a reality. Co-operation is necessary in a project of this size. The Joint Management Committee was seamless at making sure small problems did not become big problems, and they deserve special thanks today.

Most importantly, I think that the citizens of Portage la Prairie and surrounding communities should be acknowledged today. It is their hard work that will ensure the future success of not only this plant but of plants in all rural communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): The Manitoba bison producers, Mr. Ken Overby and Mark Tronrud of Teulon, have told us that the Manitoba bison industry has been suffering for the past three years. Many producers thought that the market had bottomed out in 2001 with 400-pound bison calves selling for $100 or 25 cents a pound, but in 2002 these same 400-pound animals sold for lower than $50 or 12.5 cents per pound. Recovery was happening in 2003, before May 20.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Overby and Mr. Tronrud also stated by the end of July 2003, the only income from that same animal was to be recovered through the BSE recovery program. That is, Manitoba bison producers were being offered nothing, zero dollars, for delivery of finished bison to Alberta.

The BSE feed assistance program gave producers time to explore other options. That program has now ended. That extension of the BSE feed assistance program is critical of the bison industry. The bison cow-calf sector has no outlet for its 2003 calves, the bison producers who have developed a direct marketing of meat to consumers competing for available slaughter space and grappling with an abundance of cheap meat in the marketplace.

In the short term, an infusion to the bison producers is critical for the following reasons: 1) the finishing sector has no options in marketing their finished animals; 2) the bison cow-calf sector has no outlet for the 2003 calves; and 3) the devastating drought that worsens the crisis.

I ask the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk): What is your plan to protect this important industry?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to tell of a very special event which occurred in the Interlake over the August long weekend.

The community of Matheson Island celebrated its 100th birthday with a wide array of events ranging from a variety concert in the newly expanded community centre to the magical closing ceremonies program, which included, Mr. Speaker, the Spirit Sands pow-wow performance.

I would like to commend all the organizers and volunteers who contributed toward the success of this worthy event. Special acknowledgment is owed to Pastor and Mrs. Neill Von Gunten for the monumental effort they put into the creation of the 600-plus page history book of the area entitled From Paddles to Propellers.

As well as outlining a number of family histories, the book also describes the cultural and economic development of the area in a series of thoughtful and well-researched chapters. It is a fitting tribute to the people, both past and present, who make this community unique in our province.

The beauty of the surrounding area on the shore of the great inland sea known as Lake Winnipeg and the hospitality of the people truly make Matheson Island a joy to visit.

In closing, I want to congratulate the inhabitants on a very successful first 100 years and feel confident in saying that the next century will be just as fruitful.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, today is the anniversary of the September 11 attacks that have touched the lives of millions of people in the United States, Canada and around the world.

In the face of such tragedy, many people took on heroic roles; however, firefighters were the one group that received some well-deserved credit for the importance of their continued contribution to today's society.

Over a year ago, the Manitoba government introduced and passed legislation that addressed some of the long-term risks associated with the profession of firefighting. They made it easier for firefighters to file claims for compensation when they contracted certain diseases such as bladder or kidney cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma or leukemia. These are diseases that have been found to have a connection to the dangers of firefighting.

Now the fact that the Government chose to move this way is commendable; however, they made an important error when introducing this legislation. They chose to exclude the volunteer firefighters. As the wife of a volunteer firefighter, I know only too well about the feeling when the alarm goes off in the middle of the night and my husband is out the door, putting himself at risk for the assistance of others in need. I know that he and the others like him are putting themselves into danger, but I also know that firefighting is a noble endeavour and that he is serving his community.

We need to recognize the value of our volunteer firefighters and their contributions by providing compensation, access to all of them, equal to that of full-time firefighters. The risks are the same. The Government's assistance to our volunteer firefighters needs to be the same as well.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw your attention to an exciting endeavour near Selkirk which I had the pleasure of participating in this past July and August.

Throughout the summer, a team of archaeologists, graduate students and volunteers participated in a public archaeology dig on the grounds of the Selkirk Healing Centre, unearthing objects that tell fascinating stories about Manitoba.

Archaeology is an important tool for public education. It allows us to see into the past and gives us a better understanding of history and pre-history, especially the history of Aboriginal peoples in Manitoba.

The dig is close to St. Peter's rectory which was built in 1865 by an Anglican missionary. The rectory remains on the site designated a provincial heritage building. It was subsequently used as a hospital and school so that artifacts from the last 200 years were the first recovered.

The dig has also revealed three levels of Aboriginal occupation going back approximately a thousand years. Artifacts identified at the site included arrowheads and stone knives, skeletal fish remains, modified bird, beaver and bison bones, ceramic shards, and flint sidescrapers. Buttons and bobby pins have also been found. Each of these findings provides a wealth of information about the way Manitobans lived in the past, and the lead archaeologist has called the site incredible.

In addition to professional archaeologists, 87 volunteers, including me, participated in this dig, making it a wonderful public education opportunity. Archaeological digs such as this yield insights into Manitoba's history and reveal our province's rich heritage. They are a key to the promotion of a proud and vibrant population.

The healing site dig is being sponsored by the Manitoba Archaeological Society and is partly funded by a provincial Heritage Grant. I want to thank the Minister of Culture and Heritage for this grant and especially for taking time to visit the site.

I would like to extend my sincere appreciation to the staff of the Selkirk Healing Centre for their hospitality, their interest and their participation in this dig. They were incredibly supportive and helpful in a variety of ways. It is hoped that there will be a grant forthcoming next year so that this site can be explored further.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the honourable member have leave to continue? [Agreed]

Mr. Martindale: It is hoped there will be a grant forthcoming next year so that this site can be explored further and that even more Manitobans can participate in this exciting adventure.

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The Acting Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As has been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. This floor is now open for questions.

Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I have several questions, but I would like to start off with on Boundary Trails. Of course, first of all, I need to say a few good things about the Boundary Trails, the health facility that we have there and we are very proud of it. It is an excellent facility and, obviously, being utilized by not only the community, but also from other areas of the province. Certainly, we welcome that.

My question to the minister, and I did talk to him about that briefly this morning, but just for the record. There are two positions that I know the group who are running the facility are somewhat concerned about: that is the pastoral position, the funding for that, and also the palliative care.

I am just wondering if the minister realized this would be through the Central Manitoba RHA, but whether he has had some discussions on that. Just to add to that, I know that there are other areas in the province who do have opportunity for funding for those positions, but I am just wondering where the minister is at specific to Boundary Trails.

Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question. We did have a brief discussion this morning. Palliative care is one of the areas that we have put some priority on with respect to the department and have funded co-ordinators in each region with respect to palliative care. I will check into a little more detail in terms of the funding with respect to Central.

With respect to pastoral and spiritual care, it has been a commitment of the Government, and I think a recognition of all health care providers, that it is an important component of the health care continuum. To that end I have recently written to all the CEOs of the regions indicating that, in fact, we recognize it as an important component. There are various proposals before government from a number of RHAs with respect to the funding in this area. We are having ongoing discussions. I will endeavour to get back to the member on the specifics of that.

Mr. Dyck: I appreciate the answer. Just to add to that, I think there has, certainly through studies, been a correlation between the spiritual help that those who are in care can benefit by as well, not only the physical care, so I am pleased to hear that you are looking at that. I guess I would just urge the minister and through his department that the sooner we could get some assistance in that area, the better it would be for us.

The other question I have is regarding Tabor Home. Of course, this is a personal care home in Morden. I know that previous to the election in '99 we had made a commitment that we would be expanding that facility. Just to give a little background, I know I have presented this to the minister previously, but Morden, Winkler, that area is a retirement area, although the demographics would indicate certainly that there are lot of young people as well. But with that we do have challenges and stresses put on to the personal care facilities, so I know that a part of the reason, and this was following I guess 2000-2001, part of the reason was that the community, although we thought they were ready for the expanded facility, they needed to do the acquisition of some property. Consequently, that is in place.

I would ask the minister what the plans are for capital expansion, and not only expansion, I believe the department has come up through their studies and found out that, basically, it is a 55-year-old facility and does need to be replaced. I would just like to know where you are specific to Tabor Home.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, two points–rather three points. Firstly, I do not think it has changed significantly in terms of actual development since our last discussion Estimates in this regard. Secondly, we did have an extensive discussion as I recall, the last Estimates or the Estimates before, with regard to supportive housing as well. Thirdly, we have not finalized our capital plan yet so I do not have the specifics for the member. We will have more specifics when the capital plan is finalized.

Mr. Dyck: I guess I would just follow that up with a question, and that is, does the minister, through his department–do they believe that there is an urgent need to look at that facility and to do something about it? I mean, as I have indicated, the demographics and, again, the waiting list is long. We do have a large retirement segment out there and so we do need to find spots for them.

What is happening right now is, I think as we speak today–I do not have the numbers, but I know that many of them need to remain at Boundary Trails until they can find a spot. I think you would agree that that is not the best place for them to be when, in fact, they should be in a personal care home. Also, it is much more costly if they are within the health facility.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I would agree with that proposition. We are reviewing the capital requirements in the region with the region and it is not finalized at this point. We are aware of the issues related to both population demographics and needs in the area.

Mr. Dyck: Would the minister be able to indicate when that capital plan will be finalized?

Mr. Chomiak: I cannot give the member a date at this point. I am hoping to be in a position to do so this fall.

Mr. Dyck: The other area I would like to just ask a question on is regarding Manitou. Right now, they do have a doctor out there, but basically one doctor, and I know that if there is any–I should not use the word respite care for him, but he needs to have a break as well. So I know that the other doctors come in from Morden, Winkler area and do give him a break. I am just wondering, what is the long-term plan for Manitou? How do you see that? I know the combination right now is one of care, hospital personal care, everything in it, so where do you see it going?

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, in general, we have and we will try to maintain the practices. We are finding, across the entire system, as we evolve the system, that larger practices seem to be the norm and seem to be the recommendation in terms of retention of physicians.

If there is anything that we have learned over the past decade–and what physicians have told us– it is that it is very difficult to deal in single or marginal practices where they cannot have access to respite, they cannot have access advanced education, they cannot have assistance, et cetera. The challenge, I think, is to maintain the medical practices and to enlarge medical practices to provide assistance in those communities that only have one or two doctor practices. That has been the intent and the goal.

The specific issue of Manitou, I will have to get back to the member, specifically, on Manitou.

Mr. Dyck: I do appreciate that. I know that the community is asking long term what the plan is.I know also that this past summer, their doctor needed to go on holidays and so someone else did fill in. But it is an ongoing problem, so I appreciate that.

I will turn it over to my colleague, the Member for Charleswood.

Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I lost my mike.

In the board minutes of the central region, there is one statement related to supportive housing. I will just read the statement and ask for the minister's position on this.

Ms. Roth pointed out that the Government direction is not to have more personal care home beds. However, the region is faced with waiting lists.

Could the minister please give us his position on whether or not he has decided that we do not need any more personal care home beds, that there is a halt put on any more development in that area and then how these waiting lists are to be managed?

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, there is not a government halt on personal care home beds. That has never been government policy. We continue to examine the role and function across the province. There are areas of the province where there is additional capacity required. There are areas of the province where a need has been identified for supportive housing. There are areas of the province where it appears that there is adequate on a per capita basis, perhaps excessive, capacity. But there has been no directive with respect to no personal care home beds from the Government.

Mr. Dyck: I would just like to elaborate on that. It is absolutely accurate. Gail Roth is the CEO, as you are aware of, of Salem personal care home in the city of Winkler. She is struggling with the same challenges of what you do with people who have been panelled, are waiting to get into a personal care home, so what do you do?

So this is a real situation. I know in attending their annual meeting, this was a concern that was brought forward. Again, I come back and, I guess, would indicate that Morden-Winkler, one of the fastest growing rural communities in Manitoba, is experiencing this on an ongoing basis. We do need to supply and provide the needed facilities for them.

I guess I would just urge the minister to move on this, whether it be Tabor in Morden or the city of Winkler. Right now, I would say that Tabor in Morden is the one that needs to really be looked at, which would help to resolve some of that problem that we are experiencing at Salem.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I thank the member for that advice.

Mrs. Driedger: In reading out the statement that is written in the board minutes of the Central Manitoba Regional Health Authority. The minister has indicated that that is not his policy, not to have more personal care home beds, despite the fact that the statement says Ms. Roth pointed out that the Government direction is not to have more personal care home beds.

Is he then indicating that this statement is incorrect?

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, in fact, from the Central region, one of their top priorities to Government in their submission has been the need for personal care home beds and/or supportive housing.

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Mr. Dyck: I guess I just need to follow up on that. Again coming back to these minutes, I hear some conflicting remarks here. I am not sure, can I go back and indicate to them that certainly we are aggressively looking at expanding the beds that will be available for personal care or has there been a freeze put on it, as the minutes would indicate in our region?

Mr. Chomiak: No, there is no freeze on.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, just a couple of questions on Pharmacare right now, in the 2002 Budget, Pharmacare deductible was increased by $1 to $5 per month. Can the minister tell us if he has since increased that deductible?

Mr. Chomiak: There have been two increases to the Pharmacare deductible in July 1, 2002, and July 1, 2003, and both of those increases were outlined and indicated in the Budget.

Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister referencing they were outlined in the 2002 Budget?

Mr. Chomiak: They were outlined in the 2002 and the 2003 Budget, if memory serves me correctly.

Mrs. Driedger: Sorry. I am not trying to be nitpicky here. As I was not the critic at that point in time I was not aware. Is the minister saying that the deductible increased in the 2002 Budget and then again there was another incremental increase in the 2003 Budget?

Mr. Chomiak: That is correct.

Mrs. Driedger: The information I have is it was raised a dollar to $5 in 2002, per month. Can the minister just tell me what the raise was for 2003?

Mr. Chomiak: It is actually a formula. The amount that the member is referencing is our calculation of an average impact increase on the deductible. It actually was pursuant to the income rated formula that was put in place in the mid-nineties. I will get that. Because it deals with decimal numbers and I do not want to get it inaccurate, I will get a note to the member on that.

Mrs. Driedger: One other question not related to Pharmacare deductible and then I am going to turn it over to my colleague from Portage la Prairie. Just when we were talking about personal care homes, the tower at Misericordia that had once been in the plans for the development of a personal care centre, is that now put on hold, on a back burner, totally rejected? Where is that issue at?

Mr. Chomiak: That is still subject to discussions.

Mrs. Driedger: Is there any priority to look at that, considering the age of the Misericordia Health Centre? Some of the parts of that building are quite depressing and, at one point, I do not know if it is still true, there were some concerns about fire code, whether or not we were actually meeting fire code. With all the elderly people in there I have some concern about it.

If he says it is still being deliberated, is there any sense of priority for it?

Mr. Chomiak: I think that is a valid point made by the member and a valid concern.

With some of the relocation occurring as a result of the movement of total cardiac surgery from Health Sciences Centre to St. Boniface Hospital and some of the movement such as orthopedics from St. Boniface Hospital to Concordia Hospital, there is going to be some movement within the Winnipeg system. We are just looking at the reconfiguration as to how to best manage that. There will be some developments in those areas because some of it is a ripple effect and an effect around the entire system. We are in the process of doing that right now.

Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): I would like to ask the minister, in regard to the vested interest that Health has in the development of skills for persons to be employed in the health care field, the previous administration through the Health Department made the decision to support nurses' training with health dollars and specifically the licensed practical nursing program. I would like an update as to whether or not the minister is continuing to support that particular position to making health care dollars available for the development of skills for health care workers.

Mr. Chomiak: Again, I will get the specific numbers back to the member. We have not only continued the LPN program, but we have enhanced the LPN program, offering it in a variety of sites, particularly to Assiniboine and in some very diverse locales, and we are going to continue that process. One of the other issues, we have also put in some additional resources for, the word is "articulation" between LPNs and the RN program, and additional resources are provided in that regard. Finally, we have continued to work with the MALPN with respect to targeting LPNs into full utilization of their skills. I will get numbers back to the member in that regard.

Mr. Faurschou: I do want to be very specific in my question. I just want to make certain that the minister, and through the Department of Health which he is responsible for, is going to continue and plans to continue the support for this type of access to training throughout rural Manitoba.

Mr. Chomiak: Yes, no doubt.

Mr. Faurschou: There is at the present time specific courses to LPN training that are available through Assiniboine College that have been exclusive to the Aboriginal communities of our province. Is there any involvement support-wise from the department to those training programs?

Mr. Chomiak: Is the member asking whether or not we financially support? We support it through COPSE which in turn provides funding to the community college and so it is indirect in that regard. But most of the nurse training programs are funded through post-secondary education as opposed to Health for the most part. In terms of the specifics, I will have to get back to the member on that.

Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's response, and it is important that he have access to that information. The follow-up question I have to that is one of grave concern to not only myself but to others who have observed the LPN training program which is exclusive to First Nations peoples, that has been offered out of Portage La Prairie, Southport location, over the past, I believe it is about 17 months because there was an element of upgrading that required individuals in order to get their skills to par with the entry examination on mathematics, English and other courses. There was in excess of 30 persons that entered into that some 17 months ago, and currently there are only 3, I repeat 3, individuals who are still within the program and we are still a month away from graduation of that particular program.

It would be very important to see whether or not, if we are investing as a province through COPSE, this success rate that is not in keeping with the demands on our tax dollars if a total program is run, and we only now have three potential graduates. In addition to that, there is a significant waiting list not only at Red River for the RN diploma program, but also at Assiniboine College for the LPN program, and to make a program exclusive to First Nations persons and to have all the investment that goes into an offering of this type of a course and to have that level of success rate, I think the minister should be gravely concerned.

Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you, Madam Chairperson. Of course, our biggest deficiency in terms of providing resources to the people of Manitoba is in First Nations communities. It is First Nations who have not had the access to the programs or the training and who suffer from the poorest health conditions of anywhere in the western world in some cases. It is incumbent upon us to direct resources to First Nations in order to allow them to come even close to the standards that a lot of us have been able to achieve across other parts of Manitoba.

Mr. Faurschou: Well, no one is denying the needs and no one is denying the importance that one should have access to programming regardless of geographic or related race, but it is vitally important for the success rate to have persons prepared for the demands of this type of training. Obviously, the Government has failed miserably in preparing individuals for this type of training program. To have only three persons remaining in the program out of more than thirty, and I hesitate and I believe it was around 38 individuals started out on this some 17 months ago and we only have three left. Obviously, there is a significant deficiency in the programs in preparing individuals for the rigours of the training program.

Having said that, I do want to ask the minister in regard to the seamless transition from health care aid through to LPN through to RN diploma to RN baccalaureate that was promised by the Premier more than three years ago, what is the status of that?

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Mr. Chomiak: I am just going to ask that we bring another official here to deal with some of the specific questions in this area, so either the member can pose the questions and I will answer later, or if the member wants to be available in a little while, I can get back to some of the specifics in terms of the articulation of the programs.

Mr. Faurschou: Just to conclude this line of questioning, it is also a concern which has been expressed in past opportunities by myself about the individuals that reside in the rural that have packed their bags to come to Winnipeg or to Brandon for the RN training programs, that the bags are already packed and once graduation does come around those bags, as I say, are packed and they can go anywhere to apply their new-found expertise, whereby rural residents, if they have the opportunity to train in the rural, will in significant numbers apply their new expertise right at home.

While you mentioned earlier that there is still an ongoing effort, I am looking to have a little more specific as to the commitment to see the RN training program at locales in and about rural Manitoba as now LPN is available.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we are in active discussions with at least one region with respect to offering the RN program in rural Manitoba subject to discussions with various groups and organizations. There is at least one active proposal on the table as we speak.

Mrs. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, in my opening comments I had indicated and passed on compliments to our public health officials for their handling of a lot of these public health issues that have come upon us, with the fears of SARS, concerns over water issues and West Nile virus, and indicate again that the challenges that they have faced have been immense this year, and I am sure the stresses have been there along with them.

I would like to ask the minister his views on the need for a rapid response system to public health crises in Canada and where Manitoba might be positioned in terms of getting what we might refer to as the centre of disease control or something like that.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I thank the member for those comments, and I will endeavour, in fact I will ensure that they are passed on. I think it will be appreciated by officials.

With respect to the issue of CDC North, the Naylor report, all the Health ministers attended a conference in Halifax a week ago and we were given a précis of the Naylor report which is a series of recommendations with respect to dealing with public health issues across the country. We were not given the actual report because the report we were told would not be finalized for a week or 10 days and then would be presented to the federal Minister of Health.

In short, Naylor recommended the establishment of a chief medical officer of health in Canada. He also asked for expanded lab capacity across the country and an agency,probably an arm's-length agency from Government, that would be similar to but not necessarily like the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta. He roughly left it at that. And he asked for enhanced lab capacity.

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It was then left for all of us to speculate and, indeed, all of the jurisdictions to participate in suggesting that the various locations and locales that we have should be considered as the CDC of the North. It just seems obvious to Manitoba, since we have the only level 4 virology lab and we have the expertise and the potential here, that this logically should be the site of a CDC of the North. We have made our position very clear to both the federal Minister of Health and the Prime Minister. So that is the summation. We are obviously in support, now, having said that, I have said publicly that SARS was a wake-up call for the entire public health care system because what went on in Ontario was a learning experience that all of us have learned from. It is very clear to me, and I have said publicly that we need a far better co-ordination at the national level with respect to matters of public health, particularly virulent or highly infectious diseases, and that we need far better co-ordination. So we are very supportive of a national approach. We are obviously pushing for Manitoba to be the–not only has Manitoba got the virology lab here that is in conjunction with the animal veterinary lab, but we have demonstrated leadership capacity in our Public Health Department for protocols and for national standards with respect to public health.

The long and the short of it is we need a national strategy. Manitoba is supportive of the national strategy. We think that perhaps we would be the best situated to be in fact the locale for that. But then when you get to the federal-provincial table there are various competing jurisdictions with various competing agendas concerning how it should be allocated.

Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate hearing those comments from the minister along with the commitment from him to press for something like this in Manitoba. I think it does make sense if it was here.

I would like to now move into another subject, on eating disorders. I am sure the minister has been hearing from people involved in and those that have concerns with this issue. They are also indicating that there are 11 000 Manitoba women affected by this issue, which is really quite staggering. It is probably one of those areas that has not been out in the open and discussed in any great detail and maybe has never had the attention brought to it. More recently I know we started. I had a particular interest in it, and I know, prior to 1999, I had spent some time talking to people in psych health trying to see if there was a way to move this area forward. I had been doing that with the blessings of the Minister of Health at the time, who asked me to go ahead and start to begin some talks on it.

I was glad to see some of the things that this minister put in place to deal with it. Can the minister verify if there are indeed 11 000 Manitoba women affected by this and what priority he has given to strengthening the service around eating disorders?

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the member for those comments. In fact, we did have occasion to open the eating disorder clinic through MATC and have had ongoing work, both with the organizations and with various individuals in this regard. I also undertook to commit to two individuals involved that we would provide additional resources to deal with this area.

We provided funding to Klinic Community Health Centre Teen Talk to develop and present a workshop on body image and self-esteem to schools throughout the year. The Mental Health Education Resource Centre that has been put in place has an extensive collection of information in this regard.

We also have worked with child and adolescent and adult mental health programs, trying to deal with a process for dealing with eating and eating disorders, counselling, et cetera. I think the two fundamental issues in this area are, firstly, how one deals with these matters post-age 18, if I can put it, as an adult, and the second issue is whether or not the community-based program that we have, in effect, is reaching out and provides enough resources and services to a broad spectrum of individuals.

We have also hired a staff person responsible for child and adolescent mental health. Early intervention on eating disorders is the top priority of that individual that has been hired to try to bring this together.

Mrs. Driedger: Are the numbers of 11 000 Manitoba women affected by this in the ballpark of what we actually know to be true?

Mr. Chomiak: I think the extrapolation of that data, I have seen those particular numbers. I do know that on the continuum of eating disorders, it is a broader spectrum than the average person actually realizes, and it crosses a broader spectrum of individuals. I will just check our own statistics in this regard.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate: Will he be getting back to me with those numbers? Is that what he intends to do?

Mr. Chomiak: I will get back to the member with those numbers. I want to assure the member that we have undertaken to put additional attention and resources into this area to address the issues that we talked about. We have had some success in terms of the Klinic, and we have to have enhanced programming to recognize some of the difficulties in this area. At the same time, it is like a whole series of issues that we have identified in the entire mental health spectrum that require additional attention and resources.

Mrs. Driedger: Is there a vision here in Manitoba to create a program here like the Bridgepoint eating disorder treatment centre in Saskatchewan?

Mr. Chomiak: We have had officials look at the Bridgepoint centre in Saskatchewan. We are looking at the various options and literature because there are different programs in western Canada and in eastern Canada. This is one of those areas where there is no definitive data that can suggest one way or another in terms of treatment. There is a spectrum of treatment that has various success and failure rates. We have examined the various options including Bridgepoint in Saskatchewan.

Mrs. Driedger: Given that the minister has, on several occasions, applauded the strides that were made by our government in early 1990 in the provision of mental health services, can the minister tell us what he feels are the most pressing areas facing mental health care in Manitoba today?

Mr. Chomiak: There are specific issues and there are broad, general, overall issues. The issue of stigmatization remains a huge challenge to be dealt with in terms of mental health. Clearly, the issue of housing has been identified as one of the No. 1 priorities amongst all organizations, both in the mental health field and the community in general. Co-ordination of services and access to services remain a challenge.

There are specific issues with respect to health. Most notably, how do we deal with issues of psychogeriatric patients around the province and, in particular, the psychogeriatric patients at Selkirk Mental Health Centre that are living in quite substandard, not appropriate, conditions? The emerging trends of early dementia and brain-acquired injury that have now impacted us in ways that I do not think were foreseen even a decade ago. That, in addition to the fact that early intervention at all levels clearly can go a long way to resolving these issues. The overall vision statement and plan that we put out continues to be the guiding factor in our mental health development program, but some of those points that I made earlier are particularly pressing issues that face us.

Mrs. Driedger: What are the minister's plans for the Selkirk Mental Health facility? I think he has indicated that it is a very antiquated old building. He has indicated on a number of occasions that he would like to have a new one. Where is that in the spectrum of capital projects?

Mr. Chomiak: It is in our capital plan. We intend to redevelop it. The exact sequencing and the exact development are still being worked on. Suffice to say that the two largest time-expired kind of facilities, the Health Sciences Centre and the Brandon General Hospital, are both relatively time-expired as major institutions. Regions have been redeveloped, and Selkirk is in that same category of requiring re–development.

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Mrs. Driedger: Has the minister given any consideration to creating the position of a mental health advocate?

Mr. Chomiak: I noted the suggestion of a mental health advocate was made. There has been some consideration to that particular role and responsibility. At this point I think, in a policy sense, we are not and I do not believe we will be in a position to announce a mental health advocate. I think our activities in the mental health field have been directed toward a whole series of other measures and activities. While I have considered it over a period of time, I do not think it is in the immediate term.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate to us why some patients might be having a hard time accessing a psychiatrist?

There is a woman out in the core area of Winnipeg right now, has moved here from Ontario. She has a number of fairly serious mental health issues. She is a schizophrenic as well and needs a medication change. Because she is new to Manitoba she has not been able to find a psychiatrist, and I understand is suicidal as well. She cannot get a psychiatrist here, according to this community health advocate who has brought this woman's issue to my attention.

Do we have a shortage of psychiatrists here? This woman has been in emergencies. If they do not have room in hospital, she has been sent into the community. The community does not always have the resources they need for her. I guess I am seeking the minister's help to see what we can do for this lady.

Mr. Chomiak: This is always a very particularly difficult issue. If the member could get the facts to my staff, we will do a follow-up. Offhand, we do have the clinic at Health Sciences Centre and we do have possibilities in our PACT program that do tend to deal with more acute cases.

Having said that, I do know how difficult it is in the system for some individuals in a variety of circumstances to access it. If the member could give me the name and circumstances I will have our staff follow-up on that particular individual.

Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minister for that undertaking and I will do that. Further to that, do we have a shortage of psychiatrists? Is that one of the areas there is a problem in?

Mr. Chomiak: There is always difficulty in terms of psychiatry. I suppose one can never have enough, probably. It is not an area that has been identified acutely as an area that we are actively requiring recruitment in, as in some other specialities. Having said that, I think the rate of psychiatrists in Manitoba has been relatively stable over the last few years.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me what is happening with the Salvation Army mental health programs that I understand are being now given over to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Will the locations change, the staffing change? How is that being managed?

Mr. Chomiak: There are several programs that are offered by Sally Ann. There is a mobile crisis centre, mobile crisis teams. There is also the stabilization unit.

The plan is to not have any loss of jobs or positions and in fact to enhance and expand the program by moulding it into the program at the WRHA. It is our intention not to lose any jobs or positions. In fact, it is our intention to expand some of the stabilization beds that we have in the system.

Mrs. Driedger: On to another topic of urinary incontinence in women and the TVT surgical procedure. Is there any commitment in this province to look at this procedure as a gold standard for treating women with urinary incontinence, or is there going to be a maintenance of the other more invasive type of surgery? It has been treated in Alberta where I understand they performed a clinical and economic evaluation of TVT and they found that it is appropriate for 60 percent of women with urinary incontinence. As it can be done as a day surgery, the costs of it are less than what the old surgery costs would be, O.R. time is less, recovery time is less. Alberta apparently is following Britain, Sweden, France and several other countries in setting TVT as the gold standard for stress incontinence.

What Jan Currie at the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority has said basically was confirming that the relatively restrictive criteria and restrictive numbers from last year would stay in place for this year unless a review took place. Is there going to be a review? If the review is complimentary, will this become a gold standard in Manitoba and will it be then offered to more women?

* (15:30)

Mr. Chomiak: Of course, there are several programs offered in Manitoba that are gold standard. They are not offered in Alberta, I might add. Most notably, one just looks at our palliative care program, for example, our Pharmacare program, that are gold standard exceptional to Alberta.

The member is referencing, I think, an article by Linda West on the editorial page with respect to the TVT tape. I can indicate that it is being reviewed by the WRHA and the Women's Health team. It is a new technology that we are reviewing in regard to its long-term benefits. There will be movement in this area. We are presently looking at each individual case on a case-by-case basis.

The Acting Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Is it the will of the committee to recess for five minutes? No recess.

Mrs. Driedger: I would like to find out where the Deloitte & Touche report is. That report had been done for $700,000, the external review. What aspects of that report are being acted upon and how aggressively are some of those recommendations being dealt with?

Mr. Chomiak: The Deloitte & Touche review which was put in place by the WRHA and participating facilities is under review and is still being developed with participant groups and identification of projects and initiatives. I might add that the focus of the review is aimed at achieving best practices and it is still under discussion with respect to prioritizing and implementation.

Mrs. Driedger: The report identified unnecessarily long hospital stays. Has the minister found a way to address that issue?

Mr. Chomiak: It identified a whole series of initiatives across the entire health care system with respect to practice in comparison in benchmark standards both in Winnipeg and in other jurisdictions. It is clearly in the interests of all Manitobans that we try to identify best practices as soon as possible. Hence, there has been more activity towards day surgeries, et cetera. The actual implementation is still under discussion.

Mrs. Driedger: A closure of obstetrics at Victoria was recommended. The minister is on record as saying that this will not be done. Is that still his position?

Mr. Chomiak: There are numerous recommendations, dozens and dozens of recommendations contained in Deloitte & Touche. I am looking for the direction and some of the advice with respect to the regions and separate facilities with respect to prioritization of implementation. It has been our policy that we wish to maintain a community option outside of the tertiary care option with respect to obstetrics.

Mrs. Driedger: The report also called for the layoff of some health care staff, including about 180 nursing staff or nursing division staff. Before the minister does get a little sensitive about that, that is nurses and health care aides. Is the minister following through on that particular recommendation or are they finding another way around that?

Mr. Chomiak: The report targeted a whole series of areas where there was a need for additional staff and a whole series of areas where they talked about a need for where there were standards and levels of staff that were beyond other standards. We think that we can accommodate within the system, a reconfigured system, depending upon what recommendations come back from the implementation groups and organizations.

Mrs. Driedger: Although the report, this was not a rejigging of staff, actually had indicated a layoff because, I believe, if I recall correctly, they felt that the system could do without that many staff. I appreciate there are vacancies and so these people could obviously then apply to other jobs. It was actually getting rid of 180 positions within the nursing division. Is he indicating that that is a valid recommendation or is he not in support of it?

Mr. Chomiak: This is a report that was recommendations made to the WRHA and those recommendations have not been made to Manitoba Health. Let me point out to the member that as we go through the part-time, full-time exercise that we are engaged in, there will be various different configurations that are going to occur across the system. In a system that has significant vacancies, I think that we can accommodate those changes within the system.

Mrs. Driedger: A study came out recently which I think was an incredible wake-up call in health care. It identifies that up to 12 000 people may die every year because as many as 80 percent of hospitals across Canada are not doing enough to prevent patients from getting hospital infections, and that was a study that was put out by Queen's University researchers. They basically said we need to make our hospitals safer than they are and our hospitals are not safe enough. They are indicating that we can have a quarter million people in this country that actually experience hospital-acquired infections and that 8000 to 12 000 people could die. Extrapolating that into Manitoba could certainly be hundreds.

Can I ask the minister what his department is doing to further look into this to find out where we sit in terms of Manitoba's position and whether or not any Manitoba hospitals were involved in this particular study?

Mr. Chomiak: I believe, and I stand to be corrected, that some centres did participate in this study. I will confirm that. I have also directed the WRHA to undertake a review of both the study and our practices to ensure that we are taking advantage of the recommendations in that study.

Mrs. Driedger: I just want to indicate to the minister that there is a man right now, and his office has been made aware of it, a man who is in Grace Hospital. He has been there with a hospital-acquired infection for, it is now over ten months. Each time, as they are testing him to see whether or not he could end up going to Deer Lodge–there is a requirement for five separate weeks of being free of the infection, he ends up two or three weeks free and then gets it again. Here we have a situation where he is in strict isolation because of the particular illness, which is very costly to the system, very challenging for the wife to have to be in there gowning up all the time. This gentleman was quite sick, and this is very, very hard on the family.

I believe the minister's office might have been speaking to the WRHA and there was a commitment to look into this particular case a little bit further. I do appreciate that. I have some real concerns that this man has had this for so, so very long, and it concerns me because of the many challenges it creates for the family. I appreciate that the minister is certainly addressing this issue as he is.

Mr. Chomiak: We will get back to the member on this specific case. I am familiar with it, and it is particularly difficult. I will leave it at that.

Mrs. Driedger: With hospital-acquired infections, there was also an instance in the T-3 nursery at Women's Hospital where the nurses were quite concerned about some of the things that were happening there. There was a closure of a nursery. I guess what they were doing is moving to rooming-in, so they closed the nursery. What ended up happening after they closed the nursery is that as the moms were busy and out and about or in the shower or there was something going on, the babies, in their bassinets, were left at the nursing station, apparently not far enough apart, according to infection control standards. The nurses were very, very concerned about the infection problems that could be posed to the children. Also, the children were not being kept four feet away from trash and linen receptacles. Some of these problems have since been resolved there, but they had been told that the reason the nursery closed, the T-3 nursery, was because of the $7-million anticipated deficit that the Health Sciences Centre is facing.

It created a lot of concerns regarding patient safety, whether it was mom safety or baby safety, but particularly baby safety. Infection control was just part of it. I understand that some of that has been resolved because of the advocacy of the nurses on the ward who then got the attention of management and that babies are no longer left at the desk although, apparently, the moms are having to take the babies into the shower with them, which creates a whole other, I think, concern if a mom cannot be watching that baby all the time or know exactly what is going on, on the other side of the curtain.

Those kinds of things are happening out there in terms of infection control with these babies being so vulnerable. This is a high-risk ward. This is not a normal nursery; it is more high risk. I did have some infection control concerns.

Is the minister aware of whether all of those problems on that nursery have been dealt with at this point?

* (15:40)

Mr. Chomiak: I will get back to the member on those specifics.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me whether or not our environmental health inspectors are under the Environment Department or under Manitoba Health?

Mr. Chomiak: Environment.

Mrs. Driedger: Have there been any discussions in his Government as to whether or not it might be more appropriate to have health inspectors under the Department of Health versus Environment, considering the number of things that are starting to happen out there related to public health, water issues, perhaps food issues? Have there been any discussions started as to whether or not it might be more appropriate for those health inspectors to come under his watch?

Mr. Chomiak: Yes, there has been discussion in this regard. I anticipate that there will be when we bring down the new Public Health Act. I think things will be clearer at that point.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me where physician profiles might be at in terms of their development and introduction?

Mr. Chomiak: I believe we are receiving a report from the committee very shortly with respect to developments in this regard. The multi-stakeholder group that is looking at physician profiles with direction to us.

Mrs. Driedger: I would like to talk a little bit about health care mistakes or medical errors however it is being labelled. I ask the minister what kind of discussions have been happening in his department and nationally, I guess, because there has been some national discussion around this issue on how to address this issue. It is certainly, I think, becoming more serious. It has always been a serious issue. I think people are certainly maybe starting to pay much more attention to addressing it. I wonder if the minister could just fill us in on where this might all be at.

Mr. Chomiak: In fact, the item came up at the Health ministers' conference in Halifax last week and there was a resolve by all jurisdictions to follow the recommendations of the committee that had made recommendations a year ago, of whom one of the co-chairs was Dr. John Wade, former deputy minister in Manitoba, now still at the university and still active in a number of areas.

The federal government committed $10 million to a patient safety centre that is supposed to be enacted before the end of the year. Manitoba has made a claim for consideration that the patient safety centre ought to be located here in Manitoba, for a number of reasons: Firstly because of the recommendations arising out of the Thomas-Sinclair report and some of the developments that have taken place in Manitoba, most notably the series of co-ordinated conferences that we have put in place amongst all of the medical and professional groups to enhance patient safety. We have brought in some of the world-renowned authorities in this regard in order to put in place some of this data and some of the development that is occurring. Probably the two lead jurisdictions in this area have been Alberta and Manitoba with respect to follow-up.

The third or fourth round of our conferences is taking place in October where we are bringing together all the groups again for a major conference and initiative on patient safety. I can get the proceedings to the member of the preceding conferences if the member is interested, because there has been significant progress made in this area.

At the national level, we are all committed as all health ministers to achieve by the end of the year a national patient safety centre. The federal government has committed $10 million. All of the provinces have basically signed on to move forward in this area. It is an on-going agenda item at the federal-provincial conference level.

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Mrs. Driedger: I would appreciate receiving the information the minister offered, but I have to ask the minister: Is he aware of the number of things he has offered me and is he fully intending to pass those on?

Mr. Chomiak: Yes.

Mrs. Driedger: In terms of health-care mistakes, just from the Manitoba perspective, are there any, I guess, issues in that area that really stand out here as compared to other provinces, or have those kinds of discussions not really even taken place?

Mr. Chomiak: If memory serves me correctly, we are doing a national review and study of medical error across the country to get a Canadian standard. We have always used the American statistics and the American standards. Having said that, the Sinclair inquiry talked about critical incident reports and refining the process in Manitoba, which we followed through, particularly with the largest region, the WRHA. We put a priority on it with the regions.

We have also employed now at the WRHA a patient safety representative who does critical incident follow-ups immediately now on those cases that are identified in line with the Sinclair report. In other words, family and all participants are involved. On the one hand, it means that these issues are now becoming quite public, where in the past they were not. That is good. So we are just in the stages of that. We are collecting internal data. There is a national data study that is going on in order to try to set a Canadian standard for what the Canadian equivalent is. We have always extrapolated American figures.

Mrs. Driedger: I think that is very prudent to be looking at Canadian statistics. I understand that medical error is said to be the eighth leading cause of death in the United States. So it would be interesting to see where Canada fits in all of this.

Is the minister considering bringing in legislation forcing doctors to report their errors to their superiors and more importantly to their patients? Apparently, Québec has such legislation, and Saskatchewan is working on it. Is the minister aware of those. Does he have any thoughts in leaning in that direction or not?

Mr. Chomiak: I am not certain at this juncture, given that we are trying to develop a culture, at this point, a non-blaming culture. That has been what all of the conferences and all of the literature and all of the advice has indicated. For that reason alone I do not think we would bring in legislation.

The other related factor is I would be quite surprised if Québec legislation and Sas–katchewan legislation vis-à-vis the liability insurance positions that have faced physicians and the serious difficulty that those jurisdictions may have with some of the liability carriers should that legislation be brought in. That would be a very interesting development. So I will leave it at that.

Mrs. Driedger: I would like to move on to another topic of health access centres. This concept has been articulated a number of years back. The WRHA has made some strategic plan around the development of health access centres. At the time they devised it, conceptualized it in their regional health plan, they had also had certain communities targeted and then fiscal years put in place as to when that access centre would be built.

It looks like we are sitting around four years behind schedule from the time they first looked at it and the time frames they put in place. According to their regional health plan, the River East community area access centre was to be in place in the year 2000-2001, and then others followed, with Charleswood being last in 2005-2006.

Obviously, if we are four years behind in the first one, can the minister give us an indication as to what has caused the delay in their vision for and their strategic planning for making this happen in the time frames they recommended?

Mr. Chomiak: Those specific plans were quite visionary, although some would say it was back to the future in terms of developments and visionary documents that came out in 1972. But having said that, there was a visionary plan for the provision of, I believe, 12 access centres around the city of Winnipeg and a time frame, et cetera.

The changing nature of the system as well as the introduction of significant movement in primary health care and a need to move in primary health care I think has impacted and affected some of the prioritizations with respect to the access centres as well as some of the changing developments that have occurred across the system. So I am quite familiar with the initial vision and the initial plan. I am also quite familiar with some of the complexities of putting in place even the most advanced centre, which was the River East access centre and the various issues involved in bringing that particular centre on line.

Having access and primary access around the city of Winnipeg is still a goal and concept. The development of access centres is still a goal, but amongst a whole series of priorities it is on a different timing scenario.

As well, we have changed somewhat the concept, for example the expansion to include Child and Family Services within the access centres themselves and housing into the access centres. The division itself has developed and changed over the years.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister give any indication today as to how different that schedule is? Are we not now looking at 10 or 12, as it was initially designed? Have they actually decided against even doing some of these? Is this a real radical change that has been put in place from what was originally put forward?

* (16:00)

Mr. Chomiak: No. The vision still remains. The implementation and the timing have changed.

Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me if there is a new schedule of when the various community access centres will be built?

Mr. Chomiak: The original schedule and the sequencing has not changed but the concept in terms of the vision has broadened to include not just "one centre" but accessing a variety of facilities and functions. So that has changed and that will continue to change and evolve with respect to the access centres.

Mrs. Driedger: By adding the Family Services and Housing component into it, has that complicated it more and therefore led to the delay in making this happen? I am not necessarily saying I am critical of that being added into it, but it certainly adds to the complexity, and if there are about 200 people working in each one, I can see where all of a sudden this does become much more complicated and perhaps harder to roll out. Has that led to some of the delay?

Mr. Chomiak: With respect to the River East centre, it certainly made it more complex, but it is also flexible enough so that it may not occur at every access centre, that co-locating all of the services will occur necessarily at every access centre. There were particular issues with respect to access to office space and facilities in that particular region that brought that together, although there was a principle and a concept as well. But that may not be the case in all of the access centres that are being developed.

The Acting Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Is it the will of the committee to take a 15-minute recess?

Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Are we ready for the resolutions? Yes, we will begin our resolutions.

Resolution 21.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $21,754,500 for Health, Health Accountability, Policy and Planning, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,795,500 for Health, Health Workforce, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,563,800 for Health, Regional Programs and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $61,592,400 for Health, Provincial Health Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

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Resolution 21.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,794,082,900 for Health, Health Services Insurance Fund, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,486,400 for Health, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $84,373,900 for Health.

Mrs. Driedger: Perhaps I maybe was premature in sending the staff away, although with the pre-warning I guess. There were a couple of questions about outstanding capital debt of hospitals and personal care homes for the year ending 2003.

Mr. Chomiak: Outstanding debt on projects in progress is $67.9 million and on completed projects is $640.4 million.

Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister repeat those numbers?

Mr. Chomiak: On projects in progress it $67.9 million and on completed projects it is $640.4 million.

Mrs. Driedger: Sorry, I did not hear that last part. There was a bit of noise here.

Mr. Chairperson: Could the honourable minister repeat those numbers again?

Mrs. Driedger: No, just the last one.

Mr. Chomiak: The last number was $640.4 million.

Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 21.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $84,373,900 for Health, Capital Funding, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

Resolution 21.9: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,993,300 for Health, Amortization and Other Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2004.

The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 21.1.(a) The Minister's Salary, contained in Resolution 21.1.

At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. The floor is open for questions.

Mrs. Driedger: With all of the unprecedented spending in health care, one has to wonder why patient outcomes have not substantially improved and why access to care is not markedly better. In fact, you will hear front-line workers indicating that they feel access to care is very compromised. Some even say it is in crisis.

Once people get into the system they do very well. Outcomes are also better in other jurisdictions that spend much less than us. I wonder if the minister could make a comment to these statements.

Mr. Chomiak: I can only look to the outside sources that have reviewed the developments in Manitoba from an objective sense. In the PURC Indicators report that was done last fall there was an 84, 85, 86% approval rating for health care in Manitoba.

I also note that members opposite made much of the Maclean's review of health care regions last year. This year the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority was rated No. 3 in the country on a whole wide variety of performance measures. It was duly noted as number three in the country. I note that members have not made notation of that particular issue.

I think that on all indicators or any national standards, be they CIHI or the PURC standards, Manitoba is as good or better than other jurisdictions. In some areas we are the gold standard.

It is interesting that the country and the place that was touted by members opposite as having the best health care system in the world and that we ought to emulate, namely, France, is in crisis right now, facing a huge hospital-based crisis. It just shows how the ebb and flow of health care can change from issue to issue and from time to time.

Suffice it to say that all of the indicators we have seen, both nationally and objectively by third parties, indicate that Manitoba is proceeding in the right direction. In fact the heads of most of the–well, I will leave it at that.

Mrs. Driedger: The minister indicated we had been touting to emulate France's health care system. That is not an accurate reflection of the comments that had been made. The comments that had been made were to look at France and see what we can learn from it. It had been rated by the World Health Organization as the No. 1 health care system in the world. So obviously it earned that rating for some reasons.

In France, there is no wait for care. People can access care immediately, access doctors immediately. Certainly we felt there was something to be learned by opening our ideas to what is happening in other countries. We never did say emulate, copy it exactly. We said learn from it. Learn from other European countries, other countries in the world and not just always fearmonger about the American health care system.

The minister referenced CIHI. CIHI certainly indicates that Manitoba is still the No. 1 health care spender in Canada. In fact, we are well above the Canadian average in spending. It is disconcerting to see that almost a billion dollars of new money into health care has not got rid of this crisis in access to care.

Does the minister really believe that his spending in health care is sustainable over the long period of time?

* (16:30)

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the spending by the people of Manitoba with respect to the rebuilding of their health care system in the last four years and into the future has resulted in some of the positive ratings that I have talked about. If one looks at CIHI statistics, some of the best CIHI statistics of any jurisdiction, per capita doctors, per capita nurses, per capita health care providers, amongst the highest in the country and in excess of most jurisdictions.

Health results on any factor in Manitoba cases are generally as good or better than any indicators and some of the most recent stats, and the people of Manitoba I think recognized in the last four years, recognized the investments and the rebuilding that have been done in health care and look to us to continue along the same lines in the future, being prudent with our expenditures at the same time, reinvesting in health care to continue the strides that have been made.

Mrs. Driedger: Well, with the dramatic infusion of money into health care, can the minister tell us why waiting lists for diagnostic tests in most cases are longer now than they were four years ago?

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we have tackled a whole series of areas and a whole series of initiatives, and I have noted this on many occasions during the course of Estimates debate, that the biggest problem facing us when we came into office was the human infrastructure problem, the fact that nurse training, doctor training, lab tech training, sonographer training, radiation therapist training had all been reduced or eliminated by the previous regime.

As we have moved along and developed in those areas, we have seen corresponding reductions and improvements in those lists. We have already had a discussion regarding that.

Mrs. Driedger: With the dramatic infusion of almost a billion dollars of money into health care, can the minister tell us why patients are still in ER hallways?

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it has been recognized across the country in a La Presse report that looked and analyzed situations around the world–they looked at Sweden, they looked at England, they looked at France and they looked at one jurisdiction in the entire world to deal with the hallway situation, and they picked Manitoba.

I can get the member a copy of the article and the series of articles that indicated that Manitoba had done the best job of anywhere in the country. By any standard, in fact, we had done the best job of anywhere in the country.

I think that was recognized by the people of Manitoba, that there had been significant progress made. We can go over this with the member opposite. I could table documentation that would clearly show dramatic reduction of 80 percent with respect to that issue. I think it has been recognized, not just by evaluators but by Manitobans in general.

Mrs. Driedger: Well, with the dramatic infusion of money into health care, why does the minister feel he has to manipulate numbers to make his track record look better?

We certainly hear that nurses have been told how to count patients in hallways and which patients not to count. The numbers of vacancies in the nursing workforce, those numbers have been manipulated when the minister has presented that information.

Can the minister tell me that if he is out there touting his great success in ER hallways, how much of an impact has his fudging of numbers had to do on the fame he is getting on this issue?

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we have been through this before, and I suppose we are going to continue through it for some time, but I want the member to recognize (a) that we use the same counting method that the members adopted when the member was a legislative assistant to the Minister of Health. I actually asked that the same system be put in place, and by virtue of that we have been shown to have an 80% reduction and have done the best job. In fact, seminars and presentations have been made by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority nationally with respect to what we have done.

Perhaps the best way to look at it is to take an independent third party review. I suggest the member look at both the CIHI report, the La Presse done by Montréal La Presse. There is nothing in it for La Presse to try to manipulate any kind of numbers. They said that Manitoba had done the best job of anywhere in the country and pointed to Manitoba for Québec and other jurisdictions to follow.

So I only tell the member, the member and I have disagreed on this for some time, and I suspect we will disagree in the future. Objective third parties say otherwise.

Mrs. Driedger: Well, I will point out to the minister that the third parties out there are using the data he puts out there, and the data he puts out there is incorrect. The numbers are not the same. Surgical patients and psych patients are not counted in that data, and that is even indicated on the WRHA Web site related to those numbers. You are not comparing apples to apples. It is apples to oranges.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. A recorded vote has been requested in another section of the Committee of Supply. I am therefore recessing this section of the Committee of Supply in order for members to proceed to the Chamber for a formal vote.

Mr. Chairperson: We will resume with our committee work right now, and we will continue with Resolution 21.1.

Mrs. Driedger: Certainly, I have put on the record before, and I will put on the record again that I would like to indicate to the minister that I very much appreciate the responsibility of his job, his workload, trying to juggle all of the competing interests in that area. It is an extremely, exceptionally heavy portfolio, a very contentious portfolio. There are many stakeholders involved in it, and it takes a mammoth effort for anybody to, I think, do this particular job. It is very complex, and I appreciate the efforts that any Minister of Health makes to address the very complicated issues that arise in this particular area.

I do feel, however, that good intentions alone will not make the kind of necessary changes that are needed in this area. I worry about the sustainability of the kind of funding that is being put into health care. I recognize certainly that there is a need for a certain amount of funds, and there was a need for a certain amount of increased funds, and I do not disagree with that, but certainly I think it needs to be done within a context of a bigger strategic plan so that one does not just go from crisis to crisis in managing the issues around this. I think that is just going to lead to continuing, escalating costs beyond what eventually we are not going to be able to afford.

So I would like to indicate that I find that, with the minister's lack of accountability in Estimates, with the minister's lack of accountability and commitment to keep his election promises, with his mismanagement of several health care issues–diagnostic waiting lists, nursing shortage, frozen food, hallway medicine, rural hospitals, just to name some of the very, very obvious ones–because of his negligent management of the cardiac surgery program which has seen 11 patients die waiting for surgery, therefore I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler)

THAT, due to the recognition by Manitobans that the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has failed to accomplish all of this, the Minister of Health's salary budget, line 21.1.(a), be reduced to $1.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable Member for Charleswood that line 21.1(a), Minister's Salary be reduced to $1. I find the motion to be in order and debate may proceed. Is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion?

Some Honourable Members: Yes.

Some Honourable Members: No.

Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour, please say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it.

An Honourable Member: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Chairperson: A formal vote has been requested by two members. This section of the committee will now recess to allow members to proceed to the Chamber for formal vote.

Mr. Chairperson: Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

I will read the resolution.

Resolution 21.1: RESOLVED that it be granted to Her Majesty the sum of money not exceedin