ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

CN Rail

Job Relocations

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Over the last number of years, in fact in 1988, the Premier wrote to rail workers indicating that he would stand up for them in terms of their jobs being relocated to other locations.

As the Premier knows, CN railway is planning to relocate 150 jobs out of the city of Winnipeg to Edmonton dealing with the rail Traffic Control Centre presently located here in the city of Winnipeg. These are very good jobs in our community. They are very important to our transportation hub objective which was stated in the Speech from the Throne.

I would like to ask the Premier: What is the position of the provincial government to stop this relocation of these jobs in the running trades area and the control area? What action has the provincial government taken?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, the member really raises a very, very serious issue with regard to survival of CN as a supplier of rail services in this country.

We know that CN and CP have been going through some very difficult economic times. They are in, I guess we will call it a phased process of trying to adjust to the reality of the world we live in. They have to create a level of employment consistent with their income. They are making adjustments. New technology is coming. They have to be competitive. They have to organize themselves so they can supply their shipper with value-added services, with cost-effective services.

Mr. Speaker, we have aggressively gone after CN to have a customer service centre here, which will add initially some 240 jobs to the city of Winnipeg, again very high-value jobs and up to 400 in the future. The process of that, yes, there are adjustments and there are adaptations, but that is going on throughout society. The fact that CN and CP lost $2 billion in the last five years in eastern Canada is a serious matter. The federal minister has been very, very straightforward in saying that they must get their costs in order.

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that there are reallocations of staff going on, but we have gone out very aggressively to bring more jobs in the CN sector here to the province of Manitoba. There are over 4,000 jobs in CN in Winnipeg, a very major employer here. We have the second highest employment of any location in Canada, second only to Montreal. We are way, way ahead of Edmonton, and our discussions with CN would indicate that any downsizing adjustment will leave us in a very positive position relative to any of the other locations.

We cannot deny that they must go through an adjustment of their workforce to react to the reality of today, but we have new high-tech jobs in CN coming to Winnipeg because of our aggressive attitude.

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Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the minister indicate that he was opposed to the relocation of these jobs to Edmonton. We are talking about relocation of jobs from Winnipeg to Edmonton, and, yes, we have a call centre, but we want to control trains across Canada from Winnipeg as well as controlling the calls in the centre.

To us it is not an either/or. We have lost jobs; we have had relocation of the real estate branch in CN to Edmonton; we have lost jobs in the legal branch; we have lost communications and signals and other running trades jobs. The issue is relocation. Where are these jobs going to be located? Are we going to control the trains in Winnipeg from Thunder Bay to the west coast or are those jobs going to be relocated to Edmonton?

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), are we opposed to these jobs being relocated by the federal Crown corporation, and what action are we taking to prevent them from being relocated to another community?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, we would love to be able to stand up and say we will fight every initiative of a Crown corporation or a business to adapt themselves to the reality in which we live, but we cannot. We have to allow them to adjust and adapt so that they can survive economically rather than live on the taxpayer, which is a no-no in the future, absolutely. All governments realize we must get our economic house in order, as do companies. They must be able to supply competitive services; they must be able to survive. It is very important to us that CN does survive.

The federal government has said no to the CP offer, they have said no to the merger of CN and CP, and that is probably very good news because that means that they are looking at a way to get CN to survive as an entity, supplying service to shippers across this country.

But, Mr. Speaker, that member absolutely refuses to recognize--he says, we should be worried about 150 jobs. We have brought 240; that is plus 90 jobs, in an industry that is downsizing by 10,000 jobs. I would think he would congratulate us for the fact that we have positive activities happening in Manitoba, in CN Rail, as opposed to negative.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, nobody takes joy in outlining the numbers of jobs we have lost in CN, not through downsizing, but relocation from Winnipeg primarily to Edmonton. This is the issue.

I am extremely disappointed that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) would have a minister, in essence in complicity, with saying that it is more cost-effective to have jobs in Edmonton than in Winnipeg. Are we saying that in CN's changes in their operations, it is more cost-effective to relocate jobs to Edmonton than keeping them in Winnipeg? If that is the case, we totally disagree with the Conservative government. We are asking this Conservative government to stand up for this branch to stay in Winnipeg, to stay in Manitoba because we are a better location for safety, we are a better location for cost-effectiveness, and it makes sense not only for CN but for Manitoba to keep these jobs in our province.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I find it really interesting to have all of these empty words being spoken by the Leader of the Opposition, when he was a part of a government that forced the railways to move traffic out of Manitoba and around Manitoba and forced the railways to downsize more than they ever had in their history in Manitoba because he insisted on raising the diesel locomotive fuel tax to the highest in the country.

I remember challenging Howard Pawley and saying, this is absolute economic stupidity, you are going to force the railways to stop using the traffic through Manitoba. He said, what are they going to do, are they going to tear up the tracks.

No, they did not tear up the tracks. They bought railways in the States, and they moved all the traffic around Manitoba for years under New Democrats. That destroyed more jobs than any other move that has taken place in recent history in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker, what we are doing is saying to the railroads, if you are going to be more efficient then we want to be a part of your plans for greater efficiency. They centralized nine different customer service locations into one in Manitoba. Even after you compute the jobs that he is talking about, we are net gainers of jobs with CN, 90 additional jobs. That is the bottom line and that is sound economics, not the stupid economics that we have from New Democrats.

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Red River Community College

President's Contract

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

Under Freedom of Information I have received the contract of the president of Red River College which includes a base salary of $90,000 and a $20,000 performance bonus.

At a time when secretaries and staff at Red River College have been clawed back for two years by this government, when over $7 million has been withdrawn from the community college sector by this government, when courses have been reduced and when waiting lists grow, and when there is no money in this province for nurses, social workers or child care workers, how does the minister justify this contract made by his appointed board for a thinly disguised 22 percent increase in the president's salary?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the NDP are consistently following their argument against governance, where indeed we gave greater freedom to the community to lead decision making with respect to the college efforts. So the question is in keeping with the union and their leadership at the colleges, of course, who were so opposed to it.

The government has sanctioned the $90,000 base salary, but none of the government's funds are to be used for any portion of the bonus money that is contained therein within the contract.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I beg the question of where that money is coming from. I would like the minister to explain why this performance bonus is to be paid for precisely the activities for which the president was hired and which are listed in his job description: financial performance and the development of a strategic plan.

Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact that the government provided an increase to community colleges last year in the realm of 3.3 percent, having just looked at the revenues that are coming to community colleges, certainly the revenue base increased at a significantly higher rate than that.

Part of the agreement struck between the board and the president was to take into account that if the college was successful in bringing in additional revenues outside of government, some portion of that would be reflected back to the president and all his efforts. That, therefore, would be the source of funds towards any bonus.

Ms. Friesen: I would like the minister to explain why performance bonuses are even being considered at all. Red River College is supposed to be the beacon for TQM, for total quality management training in Manitoba, and the very thing that Edwards Deming opposes is bonuses for managers in this way.

Why is Red River involved in this kind of thing?

Mr. Manness: I guess Deming is not on the board of governors that we have at the colleges.

An Honourable Member: But Dr. Freedman is.

Mr. Manness: I did not know that.

Let me say that we feel that the base salary of $90,000 plus a bonus is very good measure and support of an individual who is bringing into the 21st Century a college that is going to have to lead the way in many respects in the training of our youth and indeed all those who want to access post-secondary education.

I know the members opposite are opposed to salaries in the colleges that somehow would reflect the importance that they obviously bring to society. Yet I do not see the members standing in any way drawing attention to the very high salaries that exist within the universities. They never stand on that basis. We are talking about the president of the university, one whom we have given governance to, one that we are trying to remove from the coattails totally of government and somebody who is going to try and bring additional revenues from society as a whole.

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CN Rail

Job Relocations

Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. As I listened to the earlier question from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) to the minister, what became clear I think was that the minister, I am sure, does not want, would never want those 150 jobs to leave this province but is suggesting that CN is making an economic decision which is forcing those jobs to leave this city.

My question, Mr. Speaker, because last night as I listened to some of those who were going to be affected--I saw them on Media Reports--they made the argument quite persuasively and cogently that in fact it was not economically wise to shift these jobs to Edmonton. So that begs the question, has the minister sat down with those who are going to be affected, to listen to their arguments, who know the business best, so that he then can make an argument to the CN board, arguing that it is economically wise to retain these jobs in Winnipeg? Has he had that meeting or is he willing to have that meeting with those most directly affected to learn the economic arguments which are the ones that he is relying on here?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the second opposition party really fails to recognise who owns CN. It is the Liberal government, the citizens of Canada, it is a Crown corporation, and I have had discussions with Minister Young on this issue at different meetings, trying to get him to understand that we are a major transportation hub.

We must look after our rail services, our air services and our road services in and through this community. We have responded, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has indicated, very positively by reducing the locomotive diesel fuel tax from 13.6 cents a litre when we came into government to 6.3 cents a litre as of January 1, 1995. So we have reduced it by approximately half. That is a very positive indication to the railway that we want to have their jobs located here.

We also want, desperately, that CN will survive as a unit to supply services to the commodities that are being moved across this country. And that is the central issue and we cannot deny a company to make the appropriate adjustments, but we can try to be sure that in the end result we have a net increase in jobs which, I have indicated earlier to this House, is the situation with CN, and yet that member should surely realize that there are eight other communities across this country very unhappy that they lost jobs as CN centralized them here for cost-efficiency in Winnipeg, referring to the customer service centre.

Mr. Edwards: The minister uses the term "appropriate adjustments." What is clear from his answer and his prior answers is that he is not of the view that this is an inappropriate adjustment economically to move these jobs from Edmonton, so when he spoke to Minister Young I assume that he would not have tried to persuade him on the basis that it was economically wise to keep the jobs here. That is the argument that those who are involved in the business here are making, that it is economically appropriate to retain the jobs here.

My question for the minister: Has he made that economic argument?--which is one that presumably they would respond to. Has he made that economic argument? Mr. Speaker, I learned of it for the first time from those involved last night. Has he made that economic argument to the minister, to the CN board?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, you can clearly see the political difference between this side of the House and that side of the House. They want to walk into every boardroom of every corporation in this country and manipulate the process. That is what they want to do. This government creates an opportunity for business to operate and make the decisions that are necessary to economically survive in a very competitive world.

That member may have some information he would like to bring to this House to indicate the truth of what he is saying, but, Mr. Speaker, I have talked to the man who is in charge, the Honourable Doug Young. That member for St. James knows that in the aircraft industry they are taking jobs out of Winnipeg. Has he talked to that M.P. over there? I do not think he has.

This government does not want to manipulate business. We want business to be able to make decisions that are responsible and right. If he thinks that is wrong, he should talk to Mr. Young and tell him to fire whomever he should fire. Is that the way he would govern?

Mr. Edwards: This is the hypocrisy of the minister. On the one hand he says, oh, it is a federally driven Crown corporation, it is politically driven. Now he is saying, oh, no, we want to stay out of the boardrooms. What is it? Either he wants us to take a role or he does not. We should take a role. We should defend the economic viability of these jobs in Winnipeg. That is the nature of the question. That is still the issue which the minister has not responded to.

My final question for this minister. The minister made the linkage, as did the Premier (Mr. Filmon), to the 240 jobs that have come to this city and has indicated that this provincial government was involved in getting those jobs.

Were these 150 jobs part of those discussions? He seems to be suggesting that there was a trade off, that we got 240, we lost 150. Were these 150 jobs raised as part of that trade off for the 240 jobs in those discussions?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the short answer is no.

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CN Rail

Job Relocations

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see the Liberal Leader is now involved in this debate, since he said just last session that this Chretien government would be different than the Mulroney government in dealing with CN Rail.

Manitoba has lost over 3,000 railway jobs since this government came to office. Now, in a very short time, rail traffic controllers and technicians will be transferred to Edmonton.

In 1991, the Premier said that CN Rail promised him that there would be no further moves of CN personnel from Winnipeg to Edmonton.

I want to ask the Premier, can the Premier explain his failure to become involved in trying to save these rail traffic controller jobs when his support was requested in a letter that was sent to him November 24 to which the Premier failed to get involved at that time, or does he not care about railway jobs in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is because I care about railway jobs that we have the additional jobs in this province, for getting the national call centres for both CN and CP, because of the efforts of this government, unlike the government which the New Democrats ran in the 1980s that kicked out railway jobs in this province year after year by raising our railway diesel locomotive fuel taxes to the highest in the country and created a swing of jobs out of Manitoba that went on for year after year. That is the kind of policy that the New Democrats would support, and those are the kinds of policies we reject.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, I am going to table a document, which is an arbitration case showing that CN Rail is under no obligation to transfer any of these jobs from Winnipeg.

I want to ask the Premier, if this government is serious about keeping railway jobs in Manitoba, why did this government not make a presentation to the parliamentary task force that was in Winnipeg here on December 1, two weeks ago, discussing the Liberal privatization plan for CN Rail? Why did this government not make a presentation at those hearings?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, as part of Team West, we sent a document to the federal minister saying that we want CN to survive as an entity across this country. We want it to be competitive in offering the services--[interjection]

Mr. Speaker, those members over there must realize that is the central issue. Can CN survive? Will it be able to compete with truck, air and CP Rail in terms of supplying services across this country? We have responded as a government, reducing taxes and attracting the call centre, the customer service centre for all of CN, Canada right here to Winnipeg.

I would like to table for that member's information a graph that shows very clearly how successful Winnipeg is in maintaining jobs in CN here in Winnipeg.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, CN is going to make some $250 million profit this year, yet they are continuing to cut jobs in the province of Manitoba.

It is better for this government to go down swinging than to be asleep in the stands like they have been on this issue since they came to office.

Will the Premier indicate, the last time he met with CN Rail senior management, what plans CN has for Manitoba employment, since we now learn that as many as 800 more jobs are due to be lost in Manitoba? Has this government seen any success with the $4.5 million in fuel tax rebate that they gave to the railways to operate in this province? How many jobs have been saved--

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question.

Mr. Filmon: We have two call centres, both the national call centre for CN and for CP in this province.

Crime Rate

Prevention Programs

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

We have confirmed that robberies in Winnipeg are up 26 percent this year so far. Unfortunately, one-half of them are muggings. We now have an all-time record of over 11,000 victims of break-and-enters, and, of course, the car theft epidemic continues--all on top of the worst crime levels in Canada last year. Manitobans are asking that some comprehensive crime prevention strategy, something effective, be extracted from this minister in the remaining months of her term.

My question to the minister is: Would she do something effective and comprehensive to reduce crime and start by meeting with the chief of police in Winnipeg to get officers back into our communities, onto the neighbourhood streets--

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member continues to refer to statistics, but he has not told this House where those statistics come from. He just simply throws out numbers.

I would be very happy to hear from him exactly where those statistics have come from, what year and how he collected them.

But the important question is the question of crime prevention and also how we are dealing with crime in the province of Manitoba. This government has put forward a very comprehensive plan in dealing with criminal activity. Yes, it deals with prevention issues and it deals with intervention issues. It also deals with consequences. It also deals with legislation.

So we have a comprehensive plan which we are working on, but the member also knows that this requires community involvement as well. It requires the community to also participate. The community has indicated their willingness to do so.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the statistics are from the City of Winnipeg Police who are also alarmed at the dramatic rise in armed robberies by youth.

Youth Crime Rate

Prevention Programs

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister tell Manitobans whatever happened to her provincial council on youth crime, her youth advisory council, her expanded mandate for youth justice committees, her wilderness camps and hundreds of recommendations from the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased that the member references the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence that this government sponsored last December.

From that, recommendations were received which communities have been able to look at and take advantage of, which schools have looked at and also which government has looked at. I expect to be able to announce further details around the prevention councils.

I am very happy, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member missed it, to say that the wilderness camp has been operative for several months in this province as have our two more rigorous confinement youth institutions, our intensive custody unit which is in Brandon.

We have expanded the mandate of youth justice committees where those committees have asked to have their mandate expanded. We also have increased the number of youth justice committees as communities organize and decide that they would like to participate in the youth justice committees.

As I said, we have a very comprehensive strategy. We are acting on that strategy with the community.

Judicial System

Youth Night Court

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): There are no wilderness camps in Manitoba, and I am glad to see the minister in this House did not mislead members by talking about boot camps, because there are none in this province.

Considering the recent high-profile case, where a youth who stole a car on Christmas Eve, killing a person, did not get sentenced until Thanksgiving, that is 10 months later, Mr. Speaker, would the minister confirm that despite her announcement, there is still no start-up date or agreement with the judiciary for the youth night court in which she advised the House what impact this court, if it ever gets running, might have on the backlogs in the Youth Court?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As the member knows, certainly our institutions, particularly those for youth, have moved towards rigorous confinement. I have announced the details of that rigorous confinement. There is no question that in Manitoba, when young people enter our institutions, they enter an institution of extremely rigorous confinement and consequences. It is not a holiday.

In the matter of the night court announcement which came forward in the throne speech, the details of that announcement will be brought forward very shortly. The night court announcement deals very specifically with youth because we recognize that young people must attend court. We would like to expand the number of opportunities for youth to attend court. We would also like to see that they do not have to miss school in order to attend court and that their parents are provided the opportunity, encouraged to attend with their young person through the justice system. We want parents back involved in the justice system.

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Asbestos Handling Guidelines

Implementation

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I have a letter from the chairperson of the minister's advisory council on Workplace Safety and Health dated November 2 and attached to the guidelines for working with asbestos and asbestos operations and maintenance program, it was passed unanimously by the minister's advisory council. There was an expectation that there would be an implementation schedule by November 11.

I want to ask the minister why he is holding up this program. Why, when it was passed in October by his advisory council, is it waiting on his desk? What is the holdup, and when are we going to see this program implemented?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): I can tell the member for Radisson, the matter is not on my desk at the current time.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister then to answer the question. The committee has done its work. He has admonished this committee and been critical of them. They have done their job. What is the holdup, and when are we going to see the program implemented in schools so that people working in schools, teachers, other staff and students, are going to be protected from exposure to asbestos?

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, first of all, that matter is being reviewed by my staff in the Workplace Safety and Health department, their branch, for their comment, which I certainly appreciate.

But I have to tell the honourable member, she comes here today and implies that somehow children and people in schools are at risk. I can tell her that my department has been working for a number of years with school divisions on the asbestos issues.

I can assure her I think reasonably today that her premise that there is great risk there today, that people are at an imminent risk, is not true, like so many of the things that she brings to this House.

Ms. Cerilli: We have raised this issue before, and we know that there is asbestos in schools where it has not been identified. We need a maintenance program. Custodial staff need to be trained. Other provinces have this.

I want to ask the minister, when can we expect that we are going to have these guidelines implemented? His own department has worked for a year with the committee to prepare them; it was passed--

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, the Workplace Safety and Health Branch has been working with schools even long before this administration came into power to deal with asbestos issues in schools.

I remember, if my memory serves me correctly, I know the member came here once before with this issue and a particular issue of asbestos in which her information was less than accurate with respect to a school division.

I will tell her that the purpose of the protocol came as a result of the experience that we have learned or garnered over the last number of years in dealing with this issue in schools, and we expect to have it in place shortly, but that does not mean that we have not been working in this area on a continual basis, going back for many years, even prior to this administration.

Environmental Protection

Recycling Plants

Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment.

The ongoing cleanup at Prime Motor Oils raises the question of what we are doing to prevent further environmental catastrophes.

Perhaps the worst disaster in Winnipeg in recent years was the still that blew up at Solvit a few years ago. As these recycling solvent stills are becoming more common, what is the minister's department doing to ensure that we prevent further disasters?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, that is a very leading question. I am sure I will not have enough time to respond in all of the areas that we have become involved in, but I think the member would have to acknowledge that as The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act has been implemented in conjunction with the regulations under the The Environment Act, we have seen an extreme growth in the amount of confidence that we have in regulatory and process requirements that we put on all of our waste generators and handlers.

The very fact that we have more recycling, and that we have more control by manifest and by control of all movement through the trucking regulations of these materials, gives us a much better handle on where the materials are and how they are being handled.

There are about 4,000 generators of this material across the province, and we have undertaken in the last number of years to make sure we have licensing and manifest requirements on each of those operations.

Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, given that the Fire Commissioner's report has expressed concerns that there are still many stills operating without approval, and there are no guidelines for the use of these stills which the minister's department can enforce, when can we expect some guidelines for the operation of the solvent distillation devices so that we can protect Manitobans from a further environmental disaster?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose the member meant it this way, but the inflection of her question certainly would appear to be that she thinks there are some impending disasters out there but which we are not in fact dealing with.

Number one, where materials of flammable and combustible nature are being handled, unless someone is doing it in a clandestine or inappropriate manner and hiding it in some way from the Department of Environment, they are required and expected to manage them and are inspected to make sure that they are within the guidelines of both Workplace Safety and Health and the Department of Environment. In fact, that is one of the things where we have done a considerable amount of work in the last number of years to make sure that those two departments particularly co-ordinate their efforts so that there is no possibility of some inspection requirements falling between the cracks.

Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, the minister has used the number, 4,000 licensed generators. I would be interested in knowing from the minister: How many of these generators in fact have on-site recovery facilities and how many of these are licensed?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, what I said was, there are 4,000 operators out there, a very small percentage of which who might have stills. I did not imply that there were 4,000 stills out there. What I am indicating is that there are 4,000 different sites, including something as simple as perhaps an automobile recycling location that might well have some of the materials that we are wanting to keep an eye on and control their movement.

Now we have undertaken the licensing process across the province under Sections 8 and 10 of The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act to gain information and to require all of them to be brought under our regulations.

Economic Growth

Employment Creation

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance on jobs.

We are all interested in jobs. As I said before, back by popular demand.

Mr. Speaker, we are always being admonished by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Finance that we should look at the long run and not just month to month in terms of job creation, but if you look at the rate of job creation since this government was elected in 1988, you can see from Stats Canada data from 1988 up to 1994, including this year, Manitoba's rate of job growth has been well below the Canadian average. In fact, as of this year compared to '88, there has been absolutely no job creation whatsoever. There has been no growth. It is absolutely zero.

So my question to the Minister of Finance, why has Manitoba's rate of job growth overall been below the national average since this government assumed office?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question. I hope, unlike some previous questions on economic growth, that the chart that the member is referring is being interpreted correctly and read correctly.

I want to remind the honourable member of job growth in Manitoba that is occurring in 1994. To date, in the last three months, and that is over a longer term, there are 15,000 more jobs in Manitoba today. In terms of our manufacturing sector, we are at 64,000 jobs, the largest job growth in all of Canada this year, right here in Manitoba in the manufacturing sector.

In terms of exports, Manitoba is leading Canada in terms of export growth, more than double the national average in terms of export growth. Those are jobs right here in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker.

If you look at the telecommunication sector and the job creation, we had some discussion earlier about CN, CP and Manitoba, there are thousands of jobs being created in the telecommunications sector. I would be pleased to go on and on, and when we talk about overall economic growth, the Premier was able to table a document the other day in responding to the Speech from the Throne, setting the record straight in terms of how Manitoba compares in economic growth as compared across Canada.

Whatever indicator you use, if you use the Conference Board of Canada, three out of the last five years Manitoba has led the nation, exceeding the Canadian average. If you use Stats Canada, two out of the last four years we have led the Canadian average. If you use the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, Mr. Speaker, three out of the last four years we have led the Canadian average.

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Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, in 1994, the job growth rate in Manitoba was only one-quarter of the Canadian average. My question for the minister is, has the minister studied the data and observed the job growth between 1981 and 1988 during the previous NDP administration that, except for one year, Manitoba exceeded the national average? Yet, when we left office, we had 33,000 more jobs in place than when we were first elected.

So will the minister concede that his economic policies have resulted in Manitoba's job creation performance being below the national average?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, I can only repeat, I hope that the member has accurate information and that he is interpreting it accurately because, in terms of the previous information that the NDP brought forward on economic growth, they read the charts wrong and their information was totally incorrect.

I have already outlined in terms of economic growth what the Conference Board says about Manitoba, what Statistics Canada is saying about Manitoba, what the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics is saying about Manitoba in terms of how we are performing relative to every other province.

I should point out, because the members like to quote Statistics Canada, that from 1983 to 1989, the Statistics Canada growth estimates show that Manitoba only exceeded the national average once under the NDP, one time of their six and a half years of government.

Under our government, it has been two out of the last four years by Stats Canada, three out of the last five under the Conference Board. When we talk about job growth, I do not hear the member for Brandon East stand up and talk about Manitoba in 1993 having the third largest growth in all of Canada. I do not hear the member for Brandon East talking about Manitoba having the third lowest unemployment rate.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about jobs, and the evidence is quite clear. When we left office, we put 33,000 jobs in place. You guys have zero, big zilch, nothing. You are no better than you were in 1988.

My last question. How can the people of this province have any confidence in this government's economic policies when the forecast for next year is that Manitoba's job growth rate will again be below the national average?

I said in 1994 it was .5 percent for Manitoba, Canada was 2.0 percent, for only one-quarter of the Canadian average. Why are we below the Canadian average now, and we were above--

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have already outlined for the member for Brandon East that in the last three months alone, there are 15,000 more jobs in Manitoba.

I think the point I want to make most of all is, I have had the opportunity over the last several weeks to meet with all kinds of organizations as we are preparing the 1995-96 budget. I have met with the chambers of commerce. I met with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. I am meeting with all kinds of organizations having public meetings, as well, throughout Manitoba. I can tell you, within the business sector and the private sector and individual Manitobans, there is an awful lot of confidence because of what this government has done to create the positive economic climate for them by controlling taxes, by reducing taxes, by increasing the threshold on the payroll tax, all of those things.

What I encourage those members to do, because I know they do not do it very often, get out and talk to Manitobans, the ones who will create the jobs, the ones who have optimism in Manitoba, the ones who speak positively about the economic climate and the opportunities they have in their individual businesses.

There are more private sector jobs today here in Manitoba because of the positive aspects of things that we have brought to government. I encourage those members to get out and listen to some Manitobans for a change. They could learn a lot by doing that.

Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.