________

After Recess

The committee resumed at 14:51 p.m.

INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TOURISM

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Does the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism have an opening statement?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am considering it, Mr. Chairman. It depends if the opposition member wants to have one too, then we can each do one, or I can read part of it as we proceed on through. But I guess probably in the interests of trying to assist the member--and I want to say, genuinely, congratulations to him on his appointment as critic of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and I look forward to constructive debate. I am sure that he will have some positive suggestions and thoughts that will be helpful. That is the manner in which I look forward to this Estimates discussion.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to present the 1995-96 fiscal year spending Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism to the Committee of Supply of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. Dramatic change in global trends require dramatic change at home, and this includes some refocusing, refining and adjustments within this department.

The broad changes, challenges and opportunities in the world economy have been discussed in various policy documents produced by our government, including the Framework for Economic Growth strategy set out in June of 1993. The framework document challenged all areas of government to re-examine all its activities to ensure they are effective and focused on the identified objectives.

At Manitoba Industry, Trade and Tourism our response has been set out--

Point of Order

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I am just wondering, Mr. Minister, whether you will be supplying a copy of your opening statement rather than waiting for the Hansard copy and, if so, then I will not make extensive notes. If not, then I will make extensive notes.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member for Crescentwood does not have a point of order, but a point of clarification.

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Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I will try to make sure he gets a copy of the speaking notes so that he does not have to rely on Hansard and as soon as we can get them I will get him a copy.

In Manitoba Industry, Trade and Tourism, our response has been to set our own specific visions, strategies and objectives in line with overall government policy. Let me discuss in some detail.

Recognizing that government must be a catalyst to economic growth, we are committed to taking the lead role in creating a dynamic economic environment that stimulates exceptional growth for the benefits of Manitobans.

As leaders, we follow these principles to reinforce our mission: taking the initiative to create and capture opportunities; bringing partners together to work as a team; developing human resources to enhance productivity and foster motivational environment; and earning public trust through integrity.

To achieve our mission and meet the challenge set out in the operating principles, Industry, Trade and Tourism has established five strategic thrusts that all our activities and programs should embrace: encouraging business to take advantage of global markets; promoting Manitoba as a prime location for investment; improving access to capital; meeting infrastructure needs of the new economy; and ensuring the information needs of industry are met.

These, then, are the mandate principles and broad objectives of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, while clearly we strive for improvement and greater achievement each day. The economic indicators are strongly positive for Manitoba as we move into a new fiscal year.

Two achievements stand out. One is that our exports are climbing dramatically to nearly $12 billion in 1994, including shipments to other provinces, and the second is we continue to create new business, investment and jobs to our province, particularly in the vital telecommunications sector.

In 1994 Manitoba total merchandise exports to world markets were valued at over $4.7 billion and rose by 29.1 percent compared to 1993, well above the Canadian national average of 19.7 percent. While our total imports have risen, as well, by nearly 22 percent, much of this change is accounted for by the fact that our industry has been purchasing capital equipment to prepare for future growth.

I think that that is an important point to elaborate on a little bit. I say this particularly to those individuals in our society who were so strongly opposed to the Free Trade Agreement with the United States. I strongly believe that that agreement with the United States, and, further, to sign an agreement with Mexico, and, of course, the opening up of the trade activities with Asia bode extremely well for our province, and the numbers are showing it.

Again, what companies are doing--and I can demonstrate it in certain areas and if the member wants to have me put some specifics in the record, I am prepared to do it--the examples were, in fact, machinery that has been brought in to meet the opportunities that have been created through the Free Trade Agreement. Unemployment continues to be low, with the latest monthly figure at 7.3 percent, second best amongst all the provinces in Canada. Other indicators, including housing starts and business bankruptcies show our province compares well to the national average. The Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism plays an important role in the overall achievements of these results, but there are many factors beyond our province's control. One area in particular where we think they are significant, and that is in the difference in attracting high technology companies, specifically call centres to Manitoba.

In 1994, recognizing a growth pattern in call centres across North America, we set up a special call centre team within the department. Building on and focusing previous efforts in this area, the team has seen considerable success, and tremendous prospects lie ahead. There are now 19 call centres across the province, currently employing over 2,800 people. Within four years we are targeting employment of over 10,000 in this emerging industry.

The Manitoba Call Centre Team has been instrumental in attracting several of these companies to our province, most notably, Faneuil ISG of Boston and AT&T Transtech, together these two call centres have committed to create some 2,200 jobs. Some of the call centres are significant, as much for the applications and technology they are putting to use as the new employment they guarantee.

CN North America is using the latest computer and telecommunications technology to serve their 800 top customers across the continent. They have also committed to hire some 500 staff. GWE is noteworthy as a call centre based in rural Manitoba, Brandon, to be precise, where it has some 140 employees. Air Canada's call centre here is important, as more than half of its 198 employees are bilingual. Again, one of the strengths that this province demonstrates is the capability of people who are bilingual and opportunities that they bring to the whole call centre industry.

Our department, through the team, is among the sponsors of Winnipeg's first call centre conference running from June 19 to 22, 1995. We expect this event to draw more attention to advantages of locating in our province and to sell the concept of call centres to more businesses.

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As I stated earlier, Manitoba's export performance is leading the country and some credit, at least, must go to the unflagging work of the department's Industry Development branch. The branch has assisted businesses move into new markets, especially in Asia-Pacific countries through trade missions and exchange visits. We have seen many successful ventures into Japan, for example, which is our primary Asian market. Construction materials and furniture have won strategic sales, while prefab houses, windows and doors are also being shipped. Close relations between the Canadian embassy and the Japan External Trade Office have certainly assisted in these sales.

We have identified the People's Republic of China, with its vast potential as it moves toward a market economy, as a priority. Aided greatly by the personal visits of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to China, we have seen a record number of incoming missions from the People's Republic to this province. Last fall, the Premier signed an agreement of economic co-operation with the governor of Hunan province. Since then we have continued to develop strong relations and move toward specific contracts through missions focusing on private-sector participation.

Other activities of some potential include continued work in the U.S., or support of the Red River Trade Corridor and the Mid-Continental Trade Corridor. Both of these organizations focus on developing trade links right through the American Midwest to Mexico.

To help direct its focused trade and investment strategy for the province, the department has reconstituted the Manitoba Trading Corporation. This agency helps Manitoba companies to take advantage of emerging global markets and the liberalization of trade. Manitoba trade provided $135,000 in cost-shared support to 91 small- and medium-sized companies to begin or expand export-related ventures through the support of trade show attendance and in designing high-quality marketing materials. The trade show component alone is expected to generate $8 million for these businesses in the next year.

Among other initiatives, Manitoba trade has increased awareness of trade issues and Manitoba's successes through an agreement with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce to insert a trade-oriented publication in the chamber's newsletter. In addition to trade-related activities, the Industry Development Branch has the responsibility to develop several sectors within the province. These sectors provide numerous opportunities for growth. Particularly exciting opportunities exist in apparel, furniture and wood products and advanced materials manufacturing.

The business development branch has had many achievements over the past year including the introduction, in co-operation with Manitoba Rural Development, of the Mobile Business Service centre as a travelling information service for rural Manitoba. It has already visited 25 rural communities and is fully booked months in advance. As well as serving over 24,000 clients through our general single-window, access for business resource centre, business library, and co-operative development services, our consultants provide information and advice on business planning, marketing and financial planning to more than 500 people. The branches also held a series of five workshops on starting a small business since October of 1994 and attracted some 100 new entrepreneurs.

Meanwhile the Business Start program provided 106 loan guarantees in 1994-95 fiscal year totalling $975,000 to help Manitoba entrepreneurs start new businesses. These include 33 women, 24 rural residents. The new companies created some 250 jobs.

I was pleased also to have initiated an advisory panel on business regulations in 1994. A CFIB survey indicated that bureaucratic red tape was the second largest impediment to business development. As such, a private public-sector panel was struck in March of '94 and presented their report back to me in July of 1994 suggesting ways in which red tape could effectively be reduced for business. In November of 1994 I announced that our government would proceed with the majority of the panel's recommendations to enhance opportunities for our small-business community in Manitoba.

The Financial Services Branch has focused on the access to capital issue to ensure businesses that are able to expand and employ more Manitobans can access the needed capital at a fair price. In addition to several specific projects during the year, I would like to mention two important initiatives. Last year, a private-sector task force issued a report entitled Improving Access to Capital for Manitoba. In response to the report's recommendations we are cosponsoring with the chambers of commerce a special Invest Manitoba event through which we aim to match 16 small emerging companies with private equity investors. I am confident this will become an annual event and a valuable service for Manitoba businesses.

Another major recommendation of the report was the creation of a fund to provide higher risk loans under $1 million to Manitoba companies. It has been suggested that pension funds which now hold billions of dollars collected from Manitobans and which invest mainly outside the province would be ideal sources of capital for such a fund. I am confident that this Manitoba capital fund will also become a reality this year, and I urge all Manitoba MLAs to support our efforts to have Manitoba's savings invested here in the province to create jobs and wealth for our children.

Besides the broader teams, such as industry development, business development and financial services, the department's activities include six strategic initiatives which derive from the document I mentioned earlier, Framework for Economic Growth. These initiatives are all areas where Manitoba has some strength and which are in line with global trends. They include health industries, aerospace, information and telecommunications, agrifood, environmental industries, and tourism.

Since 1984 the health industry sector has grown from four companies to 110 in 1994. Revenues should rise above $250 million in this current fiscal year. Major events over the past year include that of Apotex Fermentation expanding its Scurfield Road facility by investing $17.5 million. RH Pharmaceuticals has won U.S. Federal Drug Administration approval to sell its WinRoe product into the American market and has begun a $15-million expansion in St. Boniface that has created and is expected to create 40 new jobs.

A new company will soon begin production of world-leading medical surgical trays in a previously vacant plant in Winnipeg. The $15 million in new expenditures will create 49 jobs initially. Biovail in Steinbach has received FDA approval for its products, which it expects will lead to an increase in revenues to $25 million for pharmaceutical production, mostly for export. The 3M Company in Morden has added a new line of medical tapes which has created 29 jobs and significant subcontracting work for Manitoba's plastics industry.

Finally, the Minister of Health and I will host Manitoba's third Pharmaceutical Fair from June 12-14. This meeting gives senior industry executives and researchers an opportunity to view new products and services and discuss alliances.

The department's aerospace initiative has focused its attention on several areas over the past year: the development of the Winnipeg International Airport as an intermodal cargo centre, a Spaceport Canada Development and working to influence and monitor federal Department of National Defence policy here in Manitoba.

The research phase of the cargo centre venture is proceeding well. Industry, Trade and Tourism has provided funding to the Northern Hemisphere Distribution Alliance to establish the business case for this cargo centre, and we are working closely with this consortium of banks, transport firms and consultants. The project continues to garner strong interest from major cargo handlers and freight forwarders in both Europe and Asia.

The aerospace initiative has also provided ongoing support for the Spaceport Canada Development at Churchill. Our department spearheaded the transfer of the Churchill rocket range from the Canadian Space Agency to Akjuit Aerospace. As well, presentations have been made to satellite developers who might use the range and to potential investors.

In terms of influencing federal DND policies, we have met with both the stakeholders here in Manitoba and the federal politicians to offer specific solutions that will both save Ottawa money and provide benefits for Manitoba.

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The Information and Telecommunications Initiative continues to encourage the formation of associations and strategic alliances in such fields as health telematics, multimedia, geomatics and Internet-related technology.

An exciting opportunity in the high technology information field is the federally sponsored CANARIE or the Canadian Network for the Advancement of Research, Industry and Education. We are working with Manitoba companies to gain access to the $80-million funding program run by CANARIE. This year produced 26 funding proposals from Manitoba, the highest per capita of any province.

Over the next year, the initiative will continue working with the Manitoba and Winnipeg Chambers of Commerce to promote the business advantages of information technology to all sectors. In particular, we will focus on the grain-handling and transportation industries to help make them more competitive through the adoption of the latest in information technology.

Manitoba's processed food and beverage industry saw a gain in overall revenues in 1994 of 13.7 percent over 1993 to $1.66 billion, reflecting a turnaround over several years of a recession and industry rationalization. Agri-food exports rose by nearly 15 percent from 1993, by 55 percent from 1990. The department's agri-food initiative was involved in several capital projects representing $21 million in investment, which are expected to create 77 jobs immediately and as many as 200 within two years.

There has been a keen interest in value-added production in Manitoba on account of our superior agricultural products and competitive business climate. I am expecting a banner year for major food-processing expansions in this province.

Other activities in 1994 include developing and cost-sharing the Manitoba 125 Retail Food Promotion with the Manitoba Food Processors Association. This promotion will raise awareness of Manitoba's bountiful and high-quality food products. The highlight of the last 12 months for the department's Environmental Industries Development Initiative was cohosting a strategic plan forum for the sector with the Economic Innovation and Technology Council in February of 1995. This forum attracted 90 key stakeholders including industry, government and industry associations who took the first steps towards developing a collective industry strategy.

Priority issues for the sector include improving access to capital for start-up expansion, linking entrepreneurs with resources through forums and data bases, supporting the development of business networks, consortia and strategic alliances and ensuring a level playing field in terms of environmental regulations for the private sector.

One important change was the EIDI fund which has broadened its scope and criteria to include product development, demonstration projects and special projects such as sector strategic studies. This change encouraged many new ideas to be brought forward with a result that 11 new projects were approved by EIDI funding in the 1994-95 fiscal year.

Manitoba tourism: This sector performance was very strong in 1994 with the U.S. overnight visits rising by 10.2 percent, more than double the national average increase. This represented an estimated $7 million in additional revenue for the tourism industry. This increase also translated into higher occupancy rates in both the city of Winnipeg and rural Manitoba. Other indicators include toll-free number inquiries, which rose by 15 percent in 1994 over 1993. In the first four months of 1995, toll-free inquiries were up by 50 percent. Canadian Tourism Research Institute forecasts Manitoba tourism revenues will rise in 1995 by 5.6 percent with accommodation and restaurant sectors to rise by 4 percent. These indicators all point to another strong year for our province's tourism operators.

After a successful tourism industry forum in 1994, a second such gathering is planned for fall of 1995. It offers a chance for industry organizations, businesses and government to plan a broad province-wide strategy in tourism. In co-operation with Manitoba Celebrate 125, Tourism launched a campaign to encourage Manitobans to invite friends and relatives to visit during this special year. Special commemorative merchandise and events guides are being promoted throughout the province.

Finally, the department will continue its highly successful Visitor Value Program designed to make Americans more aware of the savings available in Manitoba due to the currency exchange rate, sales tax rebates and travel discounts.

The Economic Innovation and Technology Council, the government's lead agency in promoting research and development, has had a busy year that included cosponsoring the Rural Development Forum, with its emphasis on entrepreneurship, and the Aerospace Sector Forum. The council also joined with the national Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and the University of Manitoba to set up a chair in aerospace materials at the University of Manitoba, adding strength to our position as an aerospace research leader. The EITC cosponsored the CKY TV show, The Innovators, which explored countless examples of Manitobans showing off their spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship.

Finally, the department and I have personally been leading efforts to reduce and eventually eliminate internal trade barriers between the provinces. The hard work has paid off, as an agreement on internal trade was signed in July of 1994, and will come into effect July 1 of 1995. This agreement provides a framework based on general trade rules, specific trade rules for 10 industry sectors and a dispute settlement mechanism that allows for private-sector access. Internal trade barriers cost Manitobans over $200 million annually, and because our province so depends on trade with other provinces, we see this agreement as a major step forward.

Despite these agreements, incidents continue to occur in which we must be prepared to strongly support the principles underpinning these interprovincial accords. Again, let me say that I think it is extremely important that we acknowledge all of the other provinces and the territories that came to the table with the spirit of trying to reduce the internal trade barriers and strengthen our country. Again, it is the consumer that loses if governments continue to put in protective mechanisms to prevent people from buying at the lowest, most competitive cost.

The recently publicized case of New Brunswick luring UPS to move jobs from across Canada to that province is a practice whereby we as Canadians and taxpayers all lose. This highlights the need for a strong secretariat to monitor and to police the rules of the Internal Trade Agreement.

I am pleased to report that Winnipeg will be home to this secretariat, and Manitoba will continue serving as provincial co-chair of the committee of ministers during the agreement's first year.

This then provides a brief overview of the key strategies, initiatives and results of my department's program, both reviewing the 1994 and looking ahead to the current fiscal year. We believe we are preparing Manitoba for a diversified, innovative and competitive future, building on our traditional strengths and seizing new opportunities in emerging world markets as they appear, for the benefit and prosperity of all Manitobans.

We will continue to restructure the department and its various roles as we determine, as we deem appropriate and to set out its strategic vision and practical objectives and themes.

Mr. Chairman, in concluding my remarks, I look forward to a positive debate. I want to acknowledge all of those people who have worked so hard within the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism to accomplish the many benefits that this province has received.

I am looking forward to the coming weeks and the coming months of many more announcements that will be made as it relates to not only new business activities that will be started in the Province of Manitoba but expansion of current businesses, and again the expansion of current businesses and the stability which we have been able to give those businesses by the taxation policies of this province without having increased any major taxes for eight years--for eight years, Mr. Chairman.

By the way, one of the members said the campaign is over. Mr. Chairman, since I entered politics the campaign has never been over. So it may be over for him; it is not over for me.

We will continue to work hard to make sure that all Manitobans understand that this government that is in place will continue to put tax policies in place that have the interests of the consumer and the people who need the jobs, Mr. Chairman. That is what it is all about, leaving the money with the taxpayers to spend as they see fit.

I am extremely pleased to be here today introducing the Estimates. I as well look forward to the debate and the positions taken by the members opposite when it comes to the no-deficit legislation that is being prepared by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). [interjection] If that is the case, that is fine. I am not here for that particular reason. I am here to do what is in the interests of the people of Manitoba.

That is why I again want to thank the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, all the staff, for their dedicated work on behalf of the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the ensuing debate.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), have any opening statements?

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Mr. Sale: Yes, I do, Mr. Chairperson. Well, I would like to thank the minister for his opening comments. I simply say to him that in the Estimates in which I have taken part so far the debate has been largely constructive. I think what makes it constructive is that both parties try not to posture and try not to do political grandstanding in regard to the issues and the data.

I look forward to a positive debate, and insofar as possible I will try to learn the strengths and weaknesses of this department. I presume it has both.

I also look forward to being able to get into some of the background issues, which I think are important and on which I want to make a few comments, but before I do, I would also pay tribute to the civil service staff who work hard in all government departments, including this one. I would just say that you know that you are getting older when one of the younger adults with whom your son grew up shows up on the minister's staff. This is a sign of increasing mortality, I am sure. I echo the minister's comments in terms of the hard work of the civil service.

I want to start by simply underlining what I think the minister knows and what all of us in Manitoba know, and that is that there is a massive shift underway in the global economy. There are many things about that that I think in the long run are very dangerous for the survival of humankind. There are other things which are exciting and positive, but it is not a single unidimensional picture.

The shift has great potential in it, I suppose one might say, for humanizing the globe in which we live, as we become less fearful of those who have different cultures, different languages, different approaches to life. Our globe becomes a safer place, and insofar as Manitoba businesses and the department encourage Manitobans to encounter the rest of the world through trade and through education, through exchange, I think this is an extremely positive thing.

I had the privilege over the last five years of teaching organizational behaviour at the University of Manitoba to adults who are completing certificate programs. I taught some 750 Manitobans the fundamentals of organizational behaviour. I became aware, through that process, that we have a very highly motivated, highly skilled workforce that seeks to improve its understanding of how industry works and what strengthens it.

I also became aware, although I already knew this from some other encounters, of what a truly multicultural workforce we have, as well as the strengths that this multiculturalism brings, so I welcome the initiatives of the department to increase Manitobans' comfort with and awareness of different cultures and different approaches to making a living around the world.

I would say, secondly, that this massive shift of which we are all aware has been accompanied in Manitoba's case by a loss in our overall share of the Canadian population; not a large shrinkage, but roughly the equivalent of 60,000 Manitobans. In other words, were we to have today the same share of the population that we had 10 years ago, there would be 60,000 more of us in Manitoba.

We also lost a share of GDP over this period of time, approximately 0.2 percent of Canada's GDP, which does not sound like a lot, but when it is applied to a province of our size, it is around $500 million. Again, were we to have the same share of GDP and the same share of population, we would have a stronger province in terms of people skills, as well as the productivity that went with that.

So, over the past decade, we have lost both employment share and GDP share. In an overall sense, while the last few months, the last year, I suppose, from somewhere in mid-'94 to early '95, we had very strong employment growth which I think all of us take pleasure in, although the government, I think, anymore than any other government, cannot take all the credit for that. I think employment grows, waxes and wanes for a great number of reasons. Government is neither to blame for all the losses nor take credit for all the gains, and I think the minister would concur with that.

But, apart from that past few months, Manitoba's employment situation is also essentially stagnant. We have retained our rank of second-lowest unemployment rate, which, traditionally, is where Manitoba has come for a long time. We trade places for third, historically. Generally, we are second to Saskatchewan, and that has been the pattern for a very long time. So we are still in that pattern, and it is essentially not a bad place to be, but it does not represent any great gains over either this government's period or over the last decade.

I am being as careful as I can, Mr. Chairperson, not to be particularly partisan in my opening remarks. I am saying a decade. Our party formed government for part of that time. The Conservatives or the Filmonites, depending on what the name is, formed government for seven of those 10 years now, or almost eight, I suppose it is now, of those 10 years, and in that period of time, we have had strikingly bad GDP growth, and I will share with the minister because I always like to source documentation and not to simply throw numbers around, so I will share this table, and I guess Hansard might like to have it, too, so they can get the numbers quoted accurately.

But from Statistics Canada - Catalogue No. 11-001E, March 9 and May 15, 1995, we looked at the growth from 1987 to 1994, '94 being the most recent date available, obviously, in gross domestic product at market prices, 1986 market price, so 1986 equals 100, for those who are not sure what market price and constant dollars means.

Manitoba's growth rate over that period of time, average annual growth rate, is 0.6 percent. Canada's average growth rate during that period of time is 1.87 percent, three times as high. The next province above Manitoba's growth rate is Saskatchewan at 0.95 percent, fully 50 percent higher than Manitoba's growth rate.

The bad news is that Manitoba is tenth out of 10. That is not tenth out of 10 by a small margin. It is tenth out of 10 by 0.35 percent below the next worst province which, unfortunately, is our neighbouring province to the west, Saskatchewan.

To compare, Ontario was almost the national average, 1.64; B.C. far ahead at 3.37; Alberta far ahead at 3.32. We were at less than a fifth of that. So our GDP growth rate, in spite of election rhetoric and the minister's comments, according to Stats Can, unless we are going to dismiss Statistics Canada, has been shockingly bad over that period of time.

So I will just give the Chair a copy of this and if the minister would like to get a copy from the Chair, I am sure that that will be easily done.

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Let me just turn to the question of trade. The minister is quite correct when he makes the case that exports to the United States have climbed, but unfortunately in throne speech after throne speech and in remarks such as were just tabled by the minister, the balance of trade is never spoken of. I am sure that the minister's own staff who are responsible for coherent public policy in the area of Industry, Trade and Tourism knows very well that it is virtually meaningless to talk about either just exports or just imports. Neither alone tells you anything about the strength of your economy. You can be exporting till you are blue in the face if your imports are significantly higher and growing faster.

In terms of our balance of trade with the world, in 1988 we had a $42-million positive balance. Essentially given the scale of it, it was a wash. That deteriorated from that point on until 1992, curiously, the year that the Free Trade Agreement and NAFTA began to really have an impact. By 1992 we had recovered from a very bad patch and had got back to essentially a wash again, a negative balance of $19 million.

In the two years following that time our trade balance overall was minus $653 million in 1993 and minus $542 million in 1994. With the rest of the world, though, throughout this period of time we have had a positive trade balance in the half-billion dollar region growing steadily to the point where in 1994 it was $736 million.

Unfortunately, the minister makes I guess the required obeisance in the direction of NAFTA. Trade balance with the United States of America has worsened from 1988 to 1994 more or less steadily. There was a brief improvement in '91 and '92, but overall it has been a steady deterioration. In 1988 the trade balance was minus $537 million with the United States. By 1994, the trade balance was minus $1.279 billion, and, yes, our exports to the United States grew. They grew in a very heartening fashion in 1994. Unfortunately, so did imports. So overall our trade balance worsened by some $140 million with the United States during that period of time.

Now, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism is not responsible for everything that goes wrong in the province or everything that goes right. But I think that it is unhelpful in the extreme when the department on whose credibility rests a lot of judgment of business corporations, when that department uses only one side of any statistic, when it speaks about exports to the exclusion of imports. No one who has any competence whatsoever in this field will pay the slightest attention because they will ask immediately, well, what were the imports? What was the balance? Exports do not tell you anything, so I would challenge the department itself to stop putting out numbers which talk only about exports. By all means, talk about the exports. Talk about the composition of the exports. Give detail about that, but provide the other side, which is the imports and the composition thereof.

Let me comment briefly on employment. I would share with the minister a document that was put out by the economics department of the Royal Bank of Canada, not a flaming socialist organization last time I checked. I think it donated somewhat more to some other parties. The Royal Bank has a newsletter, which is a very good newsletter. It comes out regularly, and it always has interesting stuff in it.

This month's asks a very important question. It asks the question: How come Canada until 1989 had more or less an unbroken record of real per capita disposal income increases, and yet, from 1990 to 1994 and a bit, Canada's per capita disposable income has fallen? I do not want to go through all the mathematics of this, but essentially John McCallum, who is the head of their research department and an extremely well-respected economist, who had spent some time here in Manitoba and spent some time at McGill University, points out that the reason is that all of the declining per capita income of the '90s, I am quoting here, can be explained by a reduction in the share of the population that had a job. He goes on to take that apart a little more in the next few pages.

I think this is an area in which again public policy would be far better served if government, instead of defending itself against bad employment numbers and trying to take credit for good ones, did some solid research in the area of employment and published that information openly, so that Manitobans, Manitoba companies, Manitoba politicians could have a better understanding of what is actually happening in the employment area.

As I understand it--and I do not pretend to be an expert in the area of employment--but as I understand it, what has happened is that over the last few years the percentage of the workforce seeking or holding a job has fallen. That is that Canada's workforce is being increasingly characterized by discouraged workers who are no longer counted in the unemployment numbers because they are no longer seeking work; and it is being characterized by increased numbers of young adults, many of whom I used to encounter at the university when I taught there, who have never been successful in becoming technically employed.

(Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

They may have held part-time jobs in restaurants or worked a minimum number of hours a week in a retail outlet of some kind, but they have never gotten into the workforce in a real way, so they are not counted when they are out of it. That is they are not part of the loop of workforce employment and unemployment. They are not in the numbers.

I know the minister is from a rural riding and I know that rural unemployment numbers are significantly better than Winnipeg's unemployment numbers, but I would say that, at least for those of us who canvassed in the city of Winnipeg in the election we just finished, it was very distressing to meet the number that I met of adults over 45 or over 50 who had lost work, had sent out hundreds and hundreds of resumes and essentially had quit. They simply had given up because they could not find anything to do. They were willing to lower their expectations, they were willing to change careers; but they could not find work simply because the jobs were going to people over 25 and under 45. In a sense, I would say why not? If an employer can get a well-trained person with more potential life expectancy in the job, given the wide availability of workers, why would they not hire the younger person?

On the other hand, the same is true. I ran into many, many young people who were either actively planning to leave Manitoba, some in fact were in the process when I talked to them, because they could not find work; or they had never been in the workforce so they were on the fringes. They were working a few hours here and a few hours there and waiting on tables here, but they were not in the workforce.

I was puzzled, as I am sure others in Manitoba have been, by the good unemployment numbers, not because I did not want to see good unemployment numbers, I do, but because they did not make intuitive sense to me in terms of what I was experiencing at the door, in terms of what I have experienced with my own family, my own children. I know how many resumes my son sent out; I know how many interviews he went through. I know he is a competent person with a good degree, but I also know it took him two years after his graduation to find a job that was vaguely related to his skills.

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I finally came across what I think may be part of the answer, and that is in a Globe and Mail article during the election campaign, actually, which pointed out that, had young people rejoined the workforce following the most recent recession at the same rate that they rejoined the workforce following the early 1980s recession, had they simply come back looking for work and been registered as unemployed, we would have a 13 percent unemployment rate in this country, not a 9.4 percent unemployment rate. In other words, the participation in the labour force of young people has fallen very sharply, and that is pointed out in this article.

I guess I would like to challenge us all and challenge this department in particular to move away from the rhetoric, which I think confuses people as much as it misleads them, and move on to a much more transparent and open approach to dealing with what I think is a continuing crisis of unemployment in this province as well as in the country. I would say that it confuses and misleads. The misleading is obvious. When you use partial statistics or when you use statistics which you know to be only telling part of the tale, people are confused because they know this is not the whole story. But it also is very confusing to people to have statistics being pushed at them which are so contrary to their experience.

I do not know a family on my street, and I live on a street of pretty reasonable homes, middle class, upper-middle, middle, somewhere in that region. There is not a family on the street that has not had an employment problem in the last five years with somebody either in that house or a child or a relative who has been laid off, lost their job, could not find work. The problem of unemployment is now a sense I think in the population of universal experience. Virtually everybody feels it. So when they are told that there is only 7.6 percent or 7.8 percent unemployment, they say, maybe, but that does not make sense. It does not make sense; they are correct, because it does not tell the whole story.

So I am looking forward to the discussions, because I am looking to see where we in opposition can play a constructive role in supporting useful development. I am looking for places in which the criticism can be validly made, and I am looking as a new critic and a new member to learn more about this department, so I hope we will have a constructive exchange, Mr. Chairperson. I will for my part try to make it constructive and I look forward to the minister's comments and his tutoring of me as an old hand at this

business.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair.)

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally--

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I was just going to ask if there would be leave to entertain my giving a few opening remarks.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is there leave from the committee to allow the member for Inkster to make some opening remarks? [agreed]

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I first thank the committee members for allowing me to give a few opening remarks. Industry and trade is one of the areas in which I have been assigned to monitor. It is not, unfortunately, an area in which I am going to be able to put in as much time as I would like to. I do hope to ask a number of questions, possibly towards the end when we are on ministerial salary, depending on time and what time allows.

I wanted to pick up from where the member from Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) was leading his discussion towards the end. That is, of course, with the general feelings of desperation that are out there to a certain degree--the whole question of jobs. I believe that still in Manitoba, during the election and prior to the election, for the last couple of years, jobs really has been the No. 1 issue for people. When I look at jobs, I talk to individuals and they will say, you know, 10, 15 years ago, we thought we could get a job and that would be our career-type job. People felt fairly secure with that. You could go get a job, possibly with, let us say, Flyer or other companies and anticipate that you would be able to work there 20, 25 years or whatever it might be, retire and be given the golden handshake and the golden watch too, I guess, and retire and continue on in your senior years.

Today, that is not quite the case. I think the mindset has changed quite dramatically today from what it was 20 years ago. Young people today look at it in the sense that there are going to be job transfers, training, retraining. In fact, I have heard the number of six, that a person can anticipate having to take on six different types of work in one career. I think that in itself says a lot in terms of how quickly things change within the economy.

A lot can be said about statistics. I was really listening when the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) was making reference to what could be the unemployment rate. What is important is that we try to bring forward all of the facts to the table.

One of the facts that I find is really never talked about to any great extent is the whole hidden economy. The hidden economy is something that is growing, at least I believe is growing and growing quite significantly. I have seen documentaries in the past, and you can see quite a considerable amount of seepage into that hidden economy. I believe there needs to be more of a discussion on that hidden economy and what governments, both provincial and national, can do to prevent the hidden economy from growing.

I am very sensitive to the number of individuals that are unemployed. I would argue that during that last recession--and some might even say we are not out of that last recession, that if you were unemployed it was not a recession, but, in fact, it was a depression. The emotional and financial and family weight that is put on when someone goes through an unemployment scenario is phenomenal, and what it does for a person's self-esteem can never be underestimated. One has to give the benefit of the doubt for individuals that need some form of training or retraining or assistance in terms of trying to get back on their feet and back into the workforce. Yes, there is a role and there will always be a role for government to play.

During the election I actually had a tour of a few facilities, and one of the things that I found interesting about these three in particular that I went to was that they had indicated that, you know, we could actually hire someone today if in fact we had an individual that had the skills. I did a quick tally of how many jobs they were referring to, and I figured it would be between 20 to 30 jobs between those three companies that they were actually talking about. I said, why is it then that if it is just a question of skills why do you not hire or fill those 30 spots and train those individuals? One of the individuals responded to me and said, look, it does not pay for us to train someone. It is in our best interest to actually wait until we can finally hire someone that has the skill. This way our bottom line will be that much greater, of course, the bottom line being that of profit, and profit is not a bad word. You know, it is essential that profit be there.

What I thought about was, well, here are 30, and I would anticipate that there are many businesses out there throughout the province that are in the same situation, that if in fact the workforce was better prepared in certain areas there could be jobs made available. If we do not respond jointly through government and private sector to meeting the demands of the jobs that are out there, then in many cases those jobs will go unfilled. The bottom line when we unfill a job is that it does nothing to assist our gross national product. That loses out on taxes. After all, I too like many others read the signs that the Conservatives put out in terms of save health care, education, and I think there was a third one to it--family services--there was a third one anyway. Create a job was the message, and I think that is a message which all three political parties would concur that the best way--oh, the deficit, the deficit was the third one.

Yes, the best way to provide social programs and to fight the deficit is to in fact get the economy in better shape, and one of the ways to get the economy in better shape is to respond to what the needs are. One of those needs is to provide training for jobs that are going to be there in the future. I do not believe government has really addressed that need to the extent that it could have.

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The other issue that I believe is necessary, again after the election I met with another company, and this company had indicated that it is a question of capital resources. Try and get some sort of social--not social assistance, well, at times, some might perceive it as social assistance through a bank. Try and get a loan, a private loan for a company for capital or expansion of any sorts. It can be extremely difficult. It is a bit confusing in a sense if you look at it.

Banks have done relatively well, billions of dollars of revenue in times in which the economy has not done that well, and I think the banks have to realize more that those profits are going to be there, but you also have a responsibility to ensure that capital dollars are getting into the hands of individuals that do have ideas that can work. There is a broader role for banks to play than just receiving a profit, and that is to ensure that capital dollars are in fact being made available.

Likewise with the government. The leader of the Liberal Party has quite often made reference to the millions of dollars that leave this province every year through pension programs and the like, to go to Toronto and Vancouver, where there are stock exchanges that create jobs primarily in the province of Ontario, in the province of British Columbia. These are the millions of dollars that leave the province, the millions of dollars that banks have through capital resources that we need to ensure that our businesses, our entrepreneurs in the province of Manitoba are given access to. By giving access to these capital dollars, once again we will be creating jobs, and through creating jobs, we will be able to address all of the other issues that are out there in that much more of a concrete way.

With those very few words, Madam Chairperson, again I appreciate the opportunity to give--Mr. Chair, Madam Chair, I guess I am used to Madam Speaker already--Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the opportunity to give a few opening remarks as I hope to ask a few questions later on in the Estimates.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I would like to thank the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for those comments.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister introduce this staff present.

Mr. Downey: I have Mr. Stephen Kupfer, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for Financial Services; Mr. Jack Dalgleish, and Mr. Jonathan Lyon, who is a special assistant in the minister's office. Jack Dalgleish is in Financial and Administration Services of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on line 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support.

Mr. Sale: I am not sure what it is, Mr. Chairperson, whether it is information or clarification. I suppose it is clarification. I do not know either of the gentlemen, so I do not know which is which.

Mr. Downey: This is Stephen Kupfer to my left and Jack Dalgleish to my left and Jonathon Lyon to my left.

Mr. Sale: That one I know. And Jonathan Lyon, with respect, is not to your left.

Mr. Downey: He is as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on line 1.(b) Executive Support.

Item (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $613,000 on page 97 of the Estimates book and on page 13 of the yellow supplement book.

Mr. Sale: Just so that we can proceed in as orderly a fashion as possible, I just let the minister know that I am working, or let the chair know and through him the minister, that I am working through the supplementary information and I am starting on page 2 of that. This being Executive Support, I have a number of broad questions which I hope the minister will allow during this initial piece of the Estimates. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Chairperson?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Just, if we might clarify, you can indeed run by the pages that you mention in the yellow book, but we have to run by the lines in the blue book.

Mr. Sale: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have the Estimates book here and I understand that. I simply wanted, for convenience of staff and the minister, to let them know that I would be working through some of the overall stuff and that the first questions come from page 2.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Agreed.

Mr. Sale: There is a comment in the first paragraph under historical background, that the restructuring of the department has taken place over some years. I think the particular line is that in 1992-93 the department was reorganized to address internal challenges through a more innovative delayered structure.

Those are great words. As I said in my introductory remarks, I had the opportunity to teach organizational behaviour, so it is wonderful to hear about innovative and delayered structures, that they actually exist somewhere.

What I am asking is, what was the nature of that reorganization in brief, and not in a long sense? First, what was the nature? Secondly, following that reorganization, there was a reduction in SY for two years. Now the department has returned virtually exactly to its previous levels. I am taking that reference from the SY chart at the, I believe it is at the back of the report, page 66 of the report.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, the flattening of the department was to probably expose some more equal senior people within the department to the different disciplines which they worked in so that we refer to them as managing partners rather than directors or that type of terminology. It basically was to give a profile to the different staff within the department who were working directly with certain industries. The increase was as a result of the Call Centre Team addition which I referred to in my opening comments.

Mr. Sale: To the minister, you say that the increase is due to the Call Centre Team. Is the entire increase due to that one initiative?

Mr. Downey: The main part of it is. I will check further to make sure. If there are any additions I will bring it to the member's attention.

Mr. Sale: In that same initial paragraph the term "internal challenges" is used. What were the internal challenges that were being faced at that time and how are those challenges now?

Mr. Downey: Again, in my comments as it related to the flattening of the department it was to try and make sure that the different areas within the department could as quickly reflect on a two-way system to senior decision makers within both government and contact with companies, probably to speed up the process, again which a flattened decision-making process can in fact in theory I believe bring to causing some action to happen rather than to tie it up in a stacked decision-making process. Basically, the process was to try and speed up some decision making.

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Mr. Sale: I look at the org chart and it does not strike me as a particularly flat chart. It has, for example, between any one managing partner and the minister, three bureaucrats, albeit reasonably senior bureaucrats. I recall working for a couple of different departments of government and there were never more than three bureaucrats between department directors and ministers in those old charts, which presumably the minister implies are not particularly flat.

Mr. Downey: I did not get the question. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Sale: In reviewing the organizational chart, Mr. Chairman, I do not view this as a particularly flat chart. I used to be an assistant deputy minister in Education. I had departmental directors who reported to me; I reported to a deputy; the deputy reported to the minister. It is exactly the same number of layers in a department which was much larger, Education, than is this department, so I do not see it as particularly flat. Maybe the minister can shed some more light on that.

Mr. Downey: With respect I cannot say too much more about it. It is basically to try to, as I said, speed up decision making. I guess it is a matter of trying to make sure that at as senior level as possible they can be exposed to people that they are doing business with. Again it is seen, I believe, within the system that this may be a little bit more reflective of what each section is doing as it relates to the strategic plan, which I again referred to in my opening comments.

Mr. Sale: Perhaps there were other changes made which were more--well, I do not want to use the pejorative term. Perhaps there were other changes made which had a major impact on the way in which the department does its business and that in fact flattening is not particularly descriptive. Were there some other changes that happened at that time that the minister has found helpful in shortening the chain of bureaucracy, or shortening the time of getting things done?

Mr. Downey: Not that I can specifically think of at this particular time.

Mr. Sale: Well, with respect, then maybe we should rewrite that first paragraph so that it describes more clearly what was done, because I was having trouble figuring what it meant and I am not any closer to understanding that now than I was.

If we could move on to the role and mission--the mission of the department is a nice, tight statement, having helped organizations create mission statements. It is a good, tight one; I like it. The problem I have with it is the reference that I made in my opening comments that the GDP growth of this province over the past decade has been .6 percent per year, fully .35 percent below the next worst province, which is our sister province of Saskatchewan, and less than one-third of the average annual growth rate of Canada over that period of time. The chart is referenced I think correctly, and I am certainly not in a position to contradict StatsCan numbers, so I wonder if the minister could comment on the degree to which the mission statement has been achieved.

(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Downey: Setting out a role and mission statement is one which, I think, over the long-term is basically reflective of what the overall strategy of the department is, to accomplish certain goals. Although the member is making reference to Statistics Canada numbers, I think in evidence which is coming forward, not necessarily on a page of statistics, but evidence that is coming forward from people who are in business, from people who are in the job of creating jobs and activities, we could refer to the call centre industry, we can refer to the garment industry, we can refer to the transportation industry and name several industries that have continually come forward and said that they have an increased demand for people within their industries.

How do you tie the mission and the role statement directly to the GDP? I quite frankly cannot see that direct connection as it relates to what we are debating here at this particular time.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the linkage is obvious. The mission statement uses the phrase "stimulates exceptional growth for the benefit of Manitobans", and the best broad indicator of economic growth is per capita GDP or real income growth, but in any statistics or, rather, any economic report that I am familiar with, growth is always measured in reference to the GDP of the entity being measured. Sometimes it is expressed as per capita, sometimes expressed in terms of real disposable incomes, a variety of ways of expressing it, but somewhere in that equation is always the gross domestic product of the province. Again, I am not trying to take cheap shots here. I am starting to say the starting point of my understanding of our current situation is that our growth is very, very low in comparison to that of the rest of the country, and I would like to dig into why that might be.

So I would ask the minister to respond to the question in terms of the economic growth of Manitoba and the mission statement of the department.

Mr. Downey: Again, Mr. Chairman, I guess one of the things that I will make some reference to is, the policies of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, as it ties into the overall government activity, have been in a major shift over the past, since we have been in office, to reduce the dependency on organizations that have been basically costing the government money, that they have not been as dependent on whether we talk Manitoba Mineral Resources or whether we talk Crown corporations that have not performed as well as what we said to the private sector, which I have to say right now are, I think, in the position and are advancing along the path which fits into the mission statement.

Let me again use another example, I think, which is important. The mineral sector in the province of Manitoba, having gone through very difficult times of both low prices and, up until the time at which we were elected, policies that were not conducive to encouraging resource exploration and development, we have seen over the past few years major changes in the economic generation that is coming from those particular industries.

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The manufacturing sector--now again, to use some examples, the furniture and the window sector, the manufacturing of furniture and the window manufacturing industries, building products have been extremely positive on an expansion-area mode.

I do not have the specific numbers with me, but I know that in the last year prior to--not this year's agricultural production but the year previous to that, we had seen dramatic losses in the farm community with the losses of crops in the Red River Valley. Of course, the major producer of our wealth is the agricultural sector, which, I am sure, the member would have to agree with.

Again, yes, the GDP and the output of this province is the measure which is used, not the only measure but is one which I think is something that we are all driving towards. That is why I think the mission statement that we are following will in fact accomplish a goal of tremendous growth, tying it into the overall policies of making sure that the taxes are not one of the uncompetitive disadvantages that businesses have in this province.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I hope the minister will put on the record any alternative information which he has about GDP because I think it is vital to know where we start. I urge him to use a time series so that we are not picking numbers from year to year which of course bump up and down.

I want to just respond briefly. I do not want to get off in a debate about Crown corps, mining sector or sectoral industry, Mr. Chairperson, but I would simply say that McKenzie Seed was a very profitable corporation, well managed in the public sector. It has been sold. It is uncertain what its future will be. I hope the protections that were built into the sale agreement are fulfilled. I will be asking some questions about that in due course.

To talk as though all Crowns produce losses and the private sector produces only earnings is to fly in the face of the Winnipeg Jets, for example, which is a private-sector corporation which has produced magnificent losses and Manitoba Hydro which is a Crown corporation that has produced magnificent earnings. So there are badly managed Crowns and there are well-managed Crowns, and there are badly managed private-sector firms and there are well-managed private-sector firms. The track record of Crowns in Manitoba is not a bad record at all.

The mining sector the minister made reference to, the minister of course knows the history. The North was largely opened up in terms of the modern North at least in the late '60s and early '70s, and the government at that time was not a Conservative government. I do not particularly want to take credit for the opening of the North any more than I am sure the minister wants to give it, but I would simply say that the mining sector is above all, of all of the industries we know of, a cyclical industry.

The price of nickel, the price of copper, the price of zinc, the price of all of the different more minor minerals that are mined in Manitoba from time to time goes up and down and the viability of our mining sector accordingly goes up and down. Deposits are found and deposits are exhausted, and so if any sector is cyclical it is the mining industry. Right now we are probably close to the top of a mining industry cycle. We may go a little higher but we are probably close to the top, and resource prices will probably start to go down in the next few years. That will not be this government's fault any more than the previous cycles were any government's fault. So I think comments on the mining sector should be put in the perspective of the nature of that industry.

Could the minister comment on the initiatives taken during the year immediately past which succeeded in capturing some opportunities? I am looking particularly at the operating principles, the first principle, to take initiatives to create and capture opportunities. Could you just comment on some specific initiatives and specific opportunities which were taken and captured?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I just will further add some numbers that I have from the Conference Board of Canada which may be helpful to the member. The new forecast from the Conference Board rates Manitoba's overall economic growth as the strongest among the prairie provinces and the fifth best in Canada. I think it might be helpful to indicate to him that there are some pretty positive indicators out there that we think are worthy of bringing forward.

The member refers to new activities and new initiatives as it relates to activities. I referred to some of them in my opening comments. I can talk about some specific ones as it relates to the health care industry or to the pharmaceutical industry more specifically. I can make reference to the call centre successes which are fairly impressive. Again, we have some activities that we talk about in the manufacturing sector, particularly in the furniture industry. We can go across the board I think and talk of many areas.

Then, for example, I think an area which I can make reference to is in the manufacturing sector as it relates to farm machinery and the numbers that are coming out of some of the areas of that type of industry. The manufacturing that the Franklin industries are carrying out with their new equipment brought in to produce truck cabs for Western Star are, again, new industries. I think the value of work that is brought to Canada that would have been done in the United States on an annual basis is something--I am just going from memory here--in the neighbourhood of $45 million annually of work that is being done here in Manitoba that would, if they had not have upgraded their systems to the capacity which they have done and entertained the sales opportunity for the truck industry, would have still been done in the United States.

There are any number of areas which we can talk about.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for those comments.

What I would be asking for is, and just so you have some notice, I would like a brief, and it can be tabular or it can be point form. I am certainly not asking for a great deal of detail, but if you could indicate the initiatives taken in the past fiscal year. Obviously, if there are current ones that you want to share with us that would be good, too.

I would like to have a list of the initiatives with some estimate of potential impact, whether the impact is measured in terms of employment numbers or in terms of, as the minister just cited, $45 million worth of work that will be done here instead of in the States. That is certainly a very positive thing. Those are good jobs. I am familiar with the project. We would appreciate having a list of those initiatives with some sense of what the department thinks the impact is going to be or has been.

Mr. Downey: I will just make a brief comment. I will just go from recollection again, but I can get the specific numbers. I know we were asked for it during the election campaign, a list of projects which we were involved in with direct government involvement. We provided that. I think the numbers are in the range of 4,000 jobs created. I will get the details of that, because it was provided.

A very reasonable amount of millions of dollars were in fact invested by the province through a loan program. The leverage, which was in the hundreds of millions of dollars of investment in the province, is actually what was carried out. So we are fairly pleased with the programs that are in place.

It was not the government that did it necessarily. We, as I said, helped create the environment for them to do it. This is not meant to be any discredit to the member who got leave to make some comments at an opening statement. Again, I felt that the Liberal Party, in their comments, were not doing a service to themselves and to some of the industries which were looking for support.

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In fact, if some of the members would have been honest with themselves, I was being lobbied by one of the individuals to help support an industry in his riding for which the project qualified. It helped, in a major way, new jobs and stabilize an industry here in Winnipeg that without the help probably would have expanded and moved elsewhere. I guess I was a little disappointed that an individual who was lobbying me for support for a program in his own riding did not stand up and say, well, I think we should temper what we are doing, saying we are going to throw all these programs out without really analyzing what in fact they were doing for the province of Manitoba.

That was not in the official opposition's party; that was in the party that no longer has status in the House. It was unfortunate because it did not do anything, I think, to help support jobs in ridings which are important to them and to us. So again, it is easy to stand up and criticize, but before you have all the information I think it is unfair.

I think the one that has really been dramatic in the creation of jobs is the whole area of call centre activities. We have seen tremendous growth in jobs in that area and I think with a minimal amount of dollars invested.

Again, I say this very openly and honestly, the garment industry, which was doomed by the way in many people's minds not to succeed after the Free Trade Agreement was signed and NAFTA, quite frankly they took a hold of it, and they have quite honestly demonstrated how well they can do in the whole global marketplace. Today, granted there have to be some training programs put in place to make sure people are qualified and equipped in that industry, but there are tremendous opportunities in the garment sector, and I take my hat off to them.

The people who own the garment industry, or who are producing garments and goods in that sector, have demonstrated to the naysayers that they in fact can do it, and there are many jobs in that sector which are available. Again, training and retraining of people for those jobs, I think, is important, and there are programs being worked on with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism to equip people to fit into those areas of work.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I agree with the minister and his comments, particularly in regard to the garment industry. It is not an industry I know a lot about, but I have had the same comments and certainly shared the same view as a layperson that free trade was going to be very difficult for them. It was in fact very difficult, but they made exceptional adaptation with some help, but not a lot of help, from government.

I would also say in response to the minister's comments concerning the views of the Liberal Party during the election that in large measure I concur with his comments. The NDP party has always viewed Canada as an economy that needed a partnership, that was a mixed public-private economy, that by its nature needed strong government, strong entrepreneurial spirit, strong labour and that we would prosper in that kind of a balanced environment. By the way, I think that the business writing in the world press that talks about business says that, too. That is the formula for success that Germany traded on, the European countries have traded on for years, that Japan trades on, that is strong and balanced roles for all the partners and appropriate programs from each. So I think that is certainly something that I would concur with.

I hope this government is committed to maintaining a strong role as a partner in that process and does not take the kind of neoconservative view, which is at least on the election platform coming out of Ontario in which Newt Gingrich north is poised to move into Queen's Park.

Mr. Downey: You are not going to question the decision of the people of Ontario, are you?

Mr. Sale: I would never question the decision of any people in terms of whom they elect. I think simply people elect with great hopes and may despair at their leisure sometimes.

Just for the record, the request I made, so that it is clear, would the minister table a list of the initiatives taken during the past--and I will leave him to choose the period of time--along with the employment levels at the point the initiative was taken, the either expected gains or the actual gains depending on the period of time that we are talking about and the estimated gains on which the initiatives were taken?

If I could just clarify this a little further, in some cases I know in the grants, loans or other partnership agreements, under whichever program they take place, there are specific expected performance levels, Repap and others. So in the case of those, those would be the expected performance levels.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I will do my best to get as much information as it relates to programs that the government was directly involved in which can, in fact, be tabled where there is not any confidential information that I am not able to table. I will attempt to give him the best story possible.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that.

Moving on into the area of human resource development, you have as an operating principle, developing human resources to enhance productivity, foster motivational environment--I know that goes farther than bringing in somebody to psych up hairdressers.

Could you tell us what you have done in terms of human resource development again in a broad way, enrollment levels, graduates, employment rates? Are these programs certificate programs, diploma programs, or are they one-off special programs that have no certification?

Mr. Downey: I think, Mr. Chairman, the attempt here is to make sure that all the people who work within the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism are fully aware and motivated to maximize their potential and the potential of the programs available to them to enhance the business activities that are carried out in the province of Manitoba.

There is a strategy that is being developed to do that. I have to say, I think, from what I am seeing and hearing, there is room for encouragement. I am encouraged by what has been brought forward. It has to be a team approach, not only within the department but within government.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that. I was clearly misunderstanding the principle. Is the principle then aimed at your own internal staff and not aimed at programs for the broader community? It seemed that the other three principles were--well, no, I suppose the first two principles were aimed at outside groups. This is an internal operating principle?

Mr. Downey: Yes.

Mr. Sale: Thank you. I misunderstood the intention here. I thought it was an education function of which I had not been aware.

My next question is in regard to the strategic thrust area. Manitoba is a prime location for investment. I wonder if the minister could provide us with a list of the private-sector investments, by sector, over the last let us say two or three years, that is the normal industrial sectors and the capital investment and other forms of investment that have been made.

Mr. Downey: Again, I am not sure where it would be available broken down sector by sector, Mr. Chairman. I think the only thing that could be done, and I think it is available to the member, as well as any public statement that would be made by a company that is investing per se in Manitoba, so I would not commit to give him something that I am not able to achieve or acquire.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Again, I would do my best to try and identify private investment whether it would be, for example, the investment that was made in Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting in the community of which the member sitting next to him has been the recipient of in a very positive way. There was both public investment but also a major investment by HBM&S in the magnitude of $180 million which we probably have heard publicly. Those are the kinds of expressions.

As far as nonannounced or other private investment, I cannot assure him that I could get that.

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Mr. Sale: With respect to the minister's comments, I certainly do not want him to try to do something that cannot be done, but it is my understanding that Statistics Canada collects this information on a sectoral basis. The difficulty with the Stats Can numbers is that they are usually long in coming.

So I am wondering if the minister has access to more current information than the published Stats Can data and if the minister would be able to share those data on a sectoral basis with the committee.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, to the best of our knowledge I can give a number that we expect to have some 2,000 company visits to the province looking at investment and/or expansion. To break it down any smaller, I cannot do it.

He is aware of the fact that we are looking at a record investment intention in the province this year of well over $4 billion, which again I think is extremely exciting for us to see that kind of investment potential and capital in the province of Manitoba, basically, if not leading one of the leaders in Canada, outstripping other provinces. I think it augers well.

Let me just look at some of the actual things that are taking place out there when we look at the investments that are taking place in Louisiana-Pacific, again a major $90-million investment, not of government money but private-sector money creating some 400 jobs. Those are the kinds of investment activities that are real.

I have made mention of some of the expansionary plans which are taking place. Palliser Furniture is another one in which we are seeing major investments taking place. We are seeing the window investment activities that are taking place, window manufacturings that are taking place. We have had at least two major expansions, one in the city of Winnipeg and another one in Steinbach. Those are major capital investment intentions.

If there is a public system of finding out what the investment actually is that is taking place that is more updated and helpful, I would like to provide that information.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that response.

I will just share with the minister, with the committee, again, what I am trying to do here is to get an overall sense of the shape of what is happening in our economy. We know that the overall shape of western economies, Canadian economies, is changing rapidly and in a very significant way. One of the clues to the degree to which we are adapting is the pattern of capital investment in terms of what sectors are leading, what sectors are trailing. Strategy for sound public policy would be to be investing in and focusing on leading strategies and perhaps paying somewhat less attention to declining areas. I am sure the department has some sense of that.

One of the key areas of being able to figure out whether it is working or not is what is happening in capital investment intentions. That is why I am asking for those questions. It is framed in the context that at least the data that I have suggests that we have not done well in GDP growth in the past period of time. I hope that the Conference Board estimates the minister shares with the committee, which I am aware of too, are correct. There is nothing negative in that. I just know that forecasts are interesting but they are forecasts. Long-term trends tell us more about whether we have been making the adaptation we need to make. I am not feeling very confident on the basis of the long-term trends.

Mr. Downey: Again, I can give him my own synopsis, but I will try and get some more detailed information as it relates to where the investments are taking place. The transportation sector is one in which there has been some major investment taking place and some positive results, when we look at the whole transportation sector. The farm machinery industry is one which is leading the way and again is seeing some major capital investment and positive results. In the agri-food sector we are seeing some very positive investments taking place and intentions for further investment as we see particularly the Asian markets opening up to different eating habits. I referred to the garment industry which is both needing people and is seeing major capital investment taking place. The whole telecommunications sector and electronics field is one which is very positive, and the computer sciences, that whole sector, again, tremendous advancements. Tourism, the actual numbers of positive tourism activities taking place in the province, particularly from the United States and from foreign travellers, again, seeing tremendous positive results.

There is one that has been brought to my attention from my colleague from the riding of Emerson (Mr. Penner) which I think is important to put on the record, the whole expansion plans and development of Friesen Printers in Altona. This is not just taking place in urban centres. It is taking place throughout the province with probably up to 80 new jobs and several millions of dollars worth of investment.

What it is doing is manufacturing a broad section of investor confidence. The mining sector alone last year saw an investment of $45 million in the exploration activity, a record number of dollars and intentions to proceed, hopefully, to three operating gold properties creating tremendous numbers of jobs and needing capital investment.

I will try to quantify in the different sectors what is taking place so the member can, in fact, get a reading. That is where I have to be quite encouraged and, I say, openly excited. I think what we have seen in Manitoba with this government's policies over the last eight years is not continually going after the taxpayers but sizing down the size of government and living within our means. Providing the essential services that are expected to be provided has given us a strong base of which, again, and I will be a little partisan, the people on April 25 decided they liked the direction we were going.

So we can look at Stats Canada numbers, we can look at all of the refined systems that are used by the academics to come to debate with, but I say, genuinely, the general public out there are extremely positive.

The agricultural sector, again, I make that as a statement. We have seen some very, very positive activities taking place. Last year's canola crop, for example, was a real boost to the economy, two major crushing plants in the province that have been working at full-out capability. In general terms, I feel a strong basis.

Let us use one other industry of which we have two plants. The member made reference to Repap, again, seeing some strong growth. The pulp prices in themselves came back adding confidence to those resource industries. The takeover of the Pine Falls Abitibi paper company by Pine Falls paper company, which the government supported, added stability to that whole community. A $30-million loan that was approved to proceed to support those jobs in that community may not be totally drawn upon before the work they have to do. So again, there is a general economic recovery remembering that in our earlier years, of which we were in government to 1990, went through probably one of the worst recessions since the 1930s.

So again, I am encouraged by what has taken place and will try to quantify it to help the member with his positive way to think about Manitoba.

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Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that response.

He has partly answered this next question, and perhaps he could just add the information on this next question to what he just promised to provide if he were able to do so, and that is the expected level of investment this year. I think he already gave me a figure on that.

My question under that is: Does this expected new investment include the $111 million for the new arena?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, the number was $4.1-billion investment intention. I honestly cannot give him that answer. I do not believe so, but, again, it may be part of the numbers. If it was, it would only back us off to $4 billion instead of $4.1 billion, so we are still in a record situation in my estimation.

Mr. Sale: That was not a question of whether it would change the record or not. It was a question of whether the investment intention included public- and private-sector spending or whether it is purely private sector, and I gather that it is public and private.

Mr. Downey: Yes, it is public and private investment.

Mr. Sale: Would the minister supply the breakdown between public and private? I do not know if there are other categories, usually there are. In most of the statistics, the mining sector, the business sector, the various sectors are indicated.

Mr. Downey: We will do our best to provide that information.

Mr. Sale: Could I just clarify for the record the question of the planned investment in a new arena. Are any of the funds that are expected to flow from the province for this project located within any of the Estimates of this department?

Mr. Downey: Not that we are aware of, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Sale: But decisions are being made as we speak, right?

Mr. Downey: No, Mr. Chairman, the budgetary numbers which are here are for the purposes for which they are spelled out in the Estimates book.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairman, I take the minister's answer, but the minister has a department that has in it a number of different sources of funding, not simply the appropriations, but there are channels and avenues that the minister and the government can access.

My question is meant to be quite specific: Are there any dollars over which you have responsibility as minister in this department and under the various acts for which you have responsibility, are there any dollars there of which you are currently aware that are planned to go to the arena?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I think probably that question would be more appropriately asked of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) as it relates to the overall project which is being talked about.

Again, there may be some areas of which, in any overall financial plan, if there were any areas of funds available in that decision, I do not want to put something on the record that is not accurate, and as I said, to my knowledge, no, there is not.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, would the minister, in general terms, comment on the next strategic thrust, which is the access to capital question?

I just say, in background of this, there is a large debate that goes on. The Liberal Party has often been on one side of this debate and others have been on another side. There are frequently assertions made that business does not have access to capital, adequate access to capital. In particular, often small business and medium-size businesses are referenced as having particular problems in terms of access to capital. On the other hand, I know that the Crocus Fund and various other venture capital funds have very significant surpluses of capital and a lack of decent opportunities in which to invest it. At least that is their perception.

I know that the Steinbach Credit Union has for years and years and years carried a very, very large overnight cash balance with its depositor. I believe it uses the Royal Bank as its overnight depositor. The credit union movement in Manitoba as a whole has a very substantial net unallocated capital balance in its overall sheet.

So can the minister comment in a general way about whether there really is a shortage of capital or is there a shortage of solid investment opportunities?

Mr. Downey: I think there can be a fairly broad ranging debate in this whole area. It will be helpful to put some things on the table. I guess it depends on where you are coming from, and one of the things that was identified as it related to the Capital Task Force, which we had established last year, which I want to acknowledge publicly, was the excellent work that they carried out. Some areas particularly that were identified that have difficulty in obtaining capital were businesses that were probably looking for a million dollars or less. You get into the major projects of which you are in the probably two to three to higher capital ranges are still difficult but not as difficult as what it was identified there.

I guess I am from the school which traditionally would have thought that is what the banking industry was in business for or the credit union industry was there to provide the kind of capital investment to proceed. As times have changed, we have seen maybe less activity, although the banks will not tell you that. This comment I am putting on the record is not in any way derogatory toward the banking industry, but I am listening to people who are out there who are looking for investment capital.

So we have through the task force identified certain areas. I do not believe it is a lack of people or businesses looking for investment capital. I think it is a matter of making sure the instruments are tuned to making sure they cover those areas, and I again talk about the million-dollar-or-less industry that is looking for money that is probably having the most difficult time.

The member refers to Crocus. I think that is an instrument that has been put in place. It is administered by a board of directors of which they have management hired. I would hope that there is an aggressive move out there for them to find, identify people who in fact can use their resources.

One of the principles behind the Crocus Fund, if I can remember the debate and the discussion and the development of it--I was not this minister at that particular time--was in fact to support employees of companies to buy a company from the owner who may be retiring or looking for an opportunity to sell. That, if I am recalling correctly, was the initial thrust behind it. Again, I cannot give an any more up-to-date report than that.

I say this on the record, I am a little disappointed that maybe there have not been more monies invested by the Crocus Fund. Again, I am not being overly critical. I just have to ask the question as to why they have not been able to identify opportunities, because I certainly know of one or two companies that would like to sell their business. Their employees probably would like to buy. Maybe we need a more aggressive marketing program from the Crocus board and from the management.

As it relates to some of the small business, we have the Business Start program, which is guaranteed loans up to $10,000 that has created several hundreds of jobs; and the Small Business Expansion Fund and again instruments which would help the very small businesses which are looking for investment capital.

Again, it is an area which we all have to continue to work on. I think the fact that we are now trying to develop a capital fund and encourage the pension funds, of which the monies are raised in Manitoba--on the record of saying this previously and I will say it again. Where the monies are earned and generated in Manitoba from public-sector jobs, whether it is working for government, whether it is the teachers fund or whatever, I would hope the managers and directors of those funds would see fit to--and we are in positive discussion with them--allow that capital to be used in Manitoba.

Again, I think it is important that we have to access all pools of capital to help use as a tool for the development of this province. I think the job that we all can play is to ask you as members of the Legislature any influence that you may have to encourage that to take place. I feel it is an area that people generate and earn their money. It is like the principles of the credit union. They were earning money within a smaller community in Manitoba, and what they saw as a need was to set up a system where that money did not have to flow to eastern Canada through the banking system to be invested but could, in fact, be kept in a system within their community to be reinvested in that community and safely invested.

It is a matter of making sure that people are I think putting their money into systems where they know there are proper instruments there to protect them.

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Another area that we--it does not fall within this direct jurisdiction, but I think it is a positive sign, and that is within the Rural Development section. We have a Grow Bond Program which--

Mr. Sale: I have heard about that program.

Mr. Downey: --can be further debated.

Mr. Sale: A couple of ads on TV I have seen from time to time.

Mr. Downey: Oh, yes. Did you like the ads, Tim?

The bottom line is, there are other instruments for other activities throughout Manitoba that can be used.

Again, I am going to be emphasizing, and the department is going to be emphasizing, a considerable amount of time and energy to make sure that we do have the capital funds in place to satisfy the growth opportunities that we feel are there. We feel there are tremendous growth opportunities. The tools have to be put in place, and, as well, the labour component has to be a major part of it. They will help the success of the businesses develop and expand.

Mr. Sale: We will probably get into a little more discussion of this in the particular line. I am simply trying to get an overall grasp of the department at this point.

I would just comment that much of what the minister says cannot be denied, that this is what we ought to be doing. But my sense, from a little bit of knowledge in the financial community, is that virtually all of the communities in Manitoba are net exporters of capital. I do not think that the business managers of the credit unions and banks want to do that; it is not to their career interest to have to do so. The fact that that pattern is virtually Manitoba-wide, that we are net exporters of capital from not just Winnipeg, but from many of the surrounding communities, most of the surrounding communities, and certainly in southern Manitoba, net exporters, suggest to me that there is a different problem. The problem is not a shortage of capital.

The problem is either that the opportunities are not well formed or the business plans are not well articulated or something like that is the problem. It is not a capital problem. Governments--and I do not mean that this is the only government that has done this--are forever talking about the need for venture capital and capital funds. I do not sense that is a particularly big need, but I would appreciate it if the minister could table with the committee any number that might indicate the capital shortfall that you think exists, which would justify the creation of a venture capital or another capital fund on the part of the province or the public sector. If you could give us a sense of what you think that gap is, I would appreciate that.

Mr. Downey: Being the co-operative minister that I am, I will proceed to make sure that I give all the information available, and the first reference that I will use is the task force report that was carried out for us last year.

Again, identifying the most immediate need: It was the $1-million-and-less capital fund. So I think he will find that report interesting. I am sure that any member of the task force report would be more than pleased to talk to him and maybe help him in his understanding. But that has been identified as a major concern and need.

Mr. Sale: Thank you for that response. I am showing some of my lack of knowledge here in that I have not seen that report. So if it is a public report, perhaps we could find a way of getting it, and I would have a chance to look at it. I am very interested in that issue.

Finally, in terms of this opening page, the last comment, meeting infrastructure needs of the new economy. Could you broadly identify what you mean by the infrastructure needs? Sometimes in your documentation it means human resources; sometimes it means hardwiring. What do you mean by infrastructure when you use the term?

Mr. Downey: I think it is a matter of making sure that when one is developing a transportation system or wants to develop a trucking industry or a transportation industry, you have to make sure the roads and the infrastructure are there to make sure that the traffic can get in and out of the system. The same applies for call centre activities. If there is a network, whether we are talking Internet or whether we are talking distance education, whether we are talking people doing business in outlying areas, faxes, private lines, there was an $800 million expansion expense from telephone systems to put private lines and fibre optics. That is what I am talking about.

As well, there is another major component which I should talk about and that is the need for investment in research, R and D, which we are as a country far lower than our competitors in the world. It is hard to encourage people to invest in R and D. I do believe there is--and with TRLabs there is one instrument which we are using, again working with the private sector to make sure we are able to go out into the world market place.

That is where we are. We are truly in the global market place. We have to have the infrastructure whether, as I said, transportation, whether it is knowledge, whether it is information to move and access in and out of the system very readily. Again, R and D is an area that fits right into this category as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I agree with the minister's comments. I assume that the minister's staff have a strategic plan in the department. Is there a strategic plan in your department, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Downey: We are always working on strategic plans and they have been very successful, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Sale: Having again some experience in helping organizations do that it is not always positive, it is very difficult. What I am wondering is whether in that strategic plan you have identified the key infrastructure areas. I am assuming there is a strategy here, I hope there is, that says that as Manitoba attempts to meet the kind of challenges of the "new economy" there are key infrastructure investments, and we have a government strategic plan, in effect, to deal with that infrastructure question, though they are not all within your department obviously. Is there such a plan? Could you briefly outline what it consists of?

Mr. Downey: It would take me a considerable amount of time, Mr. Chairman, but I could give a basic overall--as we have pointed out there are six strategic areas which the department has identified. What in fact are our strengths? Again I can talk in the agri-food sector for a minute, to make sure that when the development of an activity takes place some of the things that have to be done in the developmental stage, and that is to make sure that we have, whether it is a rail system for movement of product or a road system for movement of product. That is the hard side of that equation. When it looks at the development of a new product, we have a food testing lab in Portage la Prairie which is a supporting mechanism. Again, tied into the whole activity of any development--and the member should be well aware of it, coming from the university--is the backup of university and the technology that the people have to be trained--community colleges, the same idea, to make sure there are people there to carry out the activities.

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When I talk about tourism, we have a federal-provincial tourism agreement that has been in place to make sure that there is infrastructure in place to satisfy or to try to satisfy incoming traffic. There is no point of going into the international marketplace or into the marketplace advertising Manitoba is a good place to come to tour, and then the people when they get here find there is no infrastructure or nothing to satisfy their appetite. Whether they are going into a fishing experience or whether it is one of the arts experiences, you have to make sure the product is here. Again, building on that is extremely important. We generally would hope that when it comes to the private sector, the private investors would do that. There has had to be some encouragement in that particular area.

In the whole area of aerospace and a little bit about the activities as it relates to Akjuit and the spaceport, again there is a need to make sure we have the services available to satisfy that initiative. One of the services we need to make sure we have is CN Rail providing a service to the Port of Churchill, a very important ingredient for that to happen. I would say as well the whole area of--again I referred to it in my opening comments--the aerospace chair at the University of Manitoba on materials--I am not sure of the exact terminology, I have to go back to my comments--but it is the ability of materials to withstand the stress and the pressures and the flexes that take place within the aerospace industry, again, a major investment. Those are the kinds of things that we are following up on.

Again, with the telephone system, it is a major integral part of providing Call Centre activities and communication linkages, fibre optics for either education and/or commercial communication activities is extremely important. That again, I made the reference to the private line system that has been invested in in rural Manitoba, so that our farm community could tie into the modern technologies of what is out there. Again, it is a major, important part of a strategy to make sure that we are moving into the next century with modern technology and we are not in any way hampered by not using modern equipment that is available.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, my colleague from Flin Flon would like to pursue a couple of questions around the issue of the bayline. He is not able to be with us another day, so if the minister would agree to some questions around his last response in regard to the importance of the bayline, I would very much appreciate it.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): I am basically responding perhaps in some of the questions to the earlier ministerial statement that you made at the beginning. I am sorry, I am a bit of a rookie, so I am floating all over the place, and I hope you will bear with me.

I am glad that the honourable member for Crescentwood asked me to talk a little bit about the CN line. If we are talking about a strategic initiative up north such as the Akjuit spaceport, then of course we will need the CN line and VIA Rail.

I would also like to go back just for a minute, Mr. Minister, on Repap. You mentioned Repap as a success story; however, that is not quite what I am getting from some of the workers who are being laid off or feel they are being laid off.

Again, that harkens back to what you said earlier, the member for Crescentwood, about maybe we are only seeing one side of the picture sometimes and not both. I have been talking to some of the workers from Repap. They are telling me that they have worked there for 25 years and now are in the process of being laid off. That concerns me greatly.

I was very happy to note that earlier on you said there was a Mobile Business information centre for rural Manitoba. I cannot help thinking would it not be great if we also had a mobile mammography unit for rural Manitoba, because I am sure that rural women are as important as rural businesses.

Above all, Mr. Minister, I wonder if you could comment a little bit on tourism, which I think has real potential in the North. Again, it is tied to that negative factor that the roads are not there. If the roads were there, or better roads--the roads are there but we need better roads--and if we had perhaps sort of a sense of vision where we could connect Flin Flon by road to, let us say, Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids and have a northern round road, then I think indeed American tourists would come up north. I am just wondering I guess in a sense why some of the departments are not talking to one another, because this obviously deals in this case with the Department of Highways and Transportation and the other case with the Department of Health. I would just like your comment Mr. Minister.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure what a mobile mammography service has to do with the department which we are debating, and I would not be able to respond to it, but respecting the committee and the other members here, I think we are all very strongly supportive of making sure that all the health care capabilities are there for all the people of Manitoba, particularly when it comes to the identification and prevention and cure of cancer. If the member is trying to say that in some way we are negligent, I disagree with him.

Back to being a rookie, I am a rookie too. I learn something every day in this business, but I would hope we could stick to the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. I do not accept that we are not doing what we can in a maximum way to make sure all the health care needs of all the people in the province are being looked after.

More directly relating to the question as it relates to tourism, tourism is certainly no stranger to the North. I have to give a lot of credit to the private operators who have for years, whether it is fly-in fishing camps, whether it is tours to look at the great northern lights that we have in the North or whether it is any activity throughout the province--we have been strong supporters of tourism, and our policies I believe over the last year have shown it.

Again, my opening comments--and I will not repeat them--have clearly indicated we have seen strong growth. We are leading Canada as it relates to tourism coming in from the United States.

If the member is suggesting that we should be putting in new roads specifically for tourism, I think he is being a little bit unfair. I think we have to, when we look at developing any region, it is a matter of using a multiple of industries that will help support that investment. That is why we have seen the policies of this government encourage new development in the mining sector. Again, $40-some million in investment in finding new mine potential is important. That is why we eliminated any tax on investment in capital in new mines until the mine is in a profitable position. That is why we, in fact, brought in a policy where 150 percent of exploration expenses can be written off against other income of a mining company. So it is a matter of a multiple use of an infrastructure system.

Tourism is a major one. It is a major industry for the province, a billion dollars to Manitoba, 22,000 people are employed in the industry. We are challenging the industry to double by the year 2000, to create a tremendous number of jobs. The world is travelling, and they want to travel, and I say there is an opportunity to entertain the international marketplace in a greater way. We hope to further expand our U.S. travel. It is not that we do not have a very positive tourism industry out there today. It is a matter of how do we continue to build on what we have.

Again, as far as expecting taxpayers to put in major infrastructure in roads specifically identified for tourism, I think, would be, yes, nice to have, but keeping the ones that we have upgraded and maintained, making sure there is an airport system in place that will take people into some of the remote areas, I think is crucial. But on developing new roads, and I know the road the member is referring to, if there can be identified new mineral resources, forestry products and tourism to again be a multiple use of it, I think is extremely important. I do not know if the member would disagree or not. It is his call, but a multiple use of a road can further justify it rather than just a single use.

Mr. Jennissen: Just to clarify that, I guess all I am saying is that the potential is there. The North has the fish and the forests and the water, and it seems to be a prime location for tourism, but I still do not believe people are going to drive those roads to come north. I know a lot of Americans will not.

To get back on tourism again, I noticed the minister pointing out that a lot of American tourists come to this part of the world, and I am glad that American Airlines gives us some fairly reasonable freights for us to go back to Chicago, but for me to fly to Flin Flon is still $622.80. And that cannot be very conducive to tourism.

Mr. Downey: The member is fully aware that it is not within the jurisdiction of this government to control the rates at which you are charged to fly internally and/or externally.

I would also like to comment that the information he brings to the table I will have further investigated as it relates to Repap. I have no indication that there will be any layoffs at Repap, and if he has some more substantive information that he is either prepared to table or provide me with names of individuals whom I should talk to, I would like them, because in fact we have the opposite information, that the industry is in fact more of a positive situation, and we are looking for some expansion of job opportunities.

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Mr. Jennissen: I would be very glad to give you the name of one particular person who has worked for Repap, I believe 25 or 23 years, and he is very worried about his job. As he understood it, Repap was supposed to go into a Phase 2 and creating 1,000 jobs, and that has not happened, and he is concerned about his job.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for responding to my colleague's questions at this point, although they may be slightly out of order in terms of the appropriation, but I think they were sufficiently broad to qualify under Executive Support.

I need to ask for clarification, Mr. Chairperson. I want to spend some time on the airport authority transfer question. You may have staff that you want to have here at that point. Under what appropriation would you like to discuss the airport authority issue? It probably would also tie into northern hemisphere at the same time.

Mr. Downey: I think I do not have anybody that is available right now. I would try to deal with the questions and if I am not able to I will take them as notice, but I have a little bit of an understanding of what is taking place. Again, we are not overly directly involved, I think would be the best way to answer the question in an overall context. It is the federal government that is very much involved as it relates to the airport authority. We are certainly conscious in a general sense of what is going on, but as far as any details as to negotiations and specifics like that, I cannot get him that information. If he gives me notice I may be able to find the information he is looking for.

Mr. Sale: To clarify, the honourable House leader was asking about time. I am learning this department and I do not have a sense of time at this point. For the minister, I am sorry, perhaps I should have but I do not. I am not intending to draw things out for the sake of it, I am trying to learn as much as I can and I am finding it hard to estimate time.

I would rather deal with the airport authority under one of the appropriations; I am concerned about the strategy we are following. I am particularly concerned about the extremely onerous and I think absolutely inappropriate strictures that the federal government is placing on this process. I would like to get some of this on the record and if there is someone that the government would like to have here to help clarify, I am not asking to ask the questions at this point, I am merely trying to find out where I should ask them.

An Honourable Member: Under Aerospace.

Mr. Sale: Aerospace? Then that is 10.3.(c).

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee then to move to 3.?

Mr. Sale: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairperson. For clarification, I am not asking to move now. I was simply trying to clarify where that would best fit. I am sorry for that confusion. Secondly, we are just about ready to pass the executive area, but I have a couple of questions about your senior staff. In the organizational chart Mr. Bessey is shown along with Mr. Silver and Mr. Anderson on a line above the deputy minister, Mr. Sutherland. Is the chart still accurate in terms of those persons?

Mr. Downey: Yes.

Mr. Sale: Are all of those staff that are listed above the deputy then holding the rank of deputy? Are they paid at deputy level? What ranks and classifications are they in?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, the two on the left, Mr. Anderson and Mr. Blackwood, would be in the range of senior officers. Mr. Silver does not get paid at all and Mr. Bessey would be in the deputy range.

Mr. Sale: What SO level? SO1?

Mr. Downey: It is SO1, I believe, for Mr. Anderson and Mr. Blackwood.

Mr. Sale: For both?

Mr. Downey: Yes, I believe so.

Mr. Sale: I am sure the minister is correct in that but if there is a change there, that is fine. I am simply trying to discover what their rank is. I am sure they all earn their money many times over, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairperson, could the minister clarify whether Mr. Bessey reports directly to the minister as indicated in the chart, or does he report through the deputy?

Mr. Downey: Directly to the minister.

Mr. Sale: Could the minister describe the various roles that Mr. Bessey carries out on behalf of the government in an overall sense?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, we could talk, probably, about the job of the Economic Development Board secretary and the role in which that is carried out. That is basically a small unit of people who are available to the Economic Development Board of Cabinet as it relates to specific initiatives, i.e., the discussions and negotiations of major initiatives like the agreement with Faneuil, the Faneuil deal that was carried out. In general terms it is a matter of high profile businesses which will have a major positive initiative to the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Sale: Would the minister table with the committee the formal roles that Mr. Bessey carries? For example, I believe he represents the province on the Crocus Fund. I believe he is currently responsible for monitoring or taking part in, I am not sure which it is, the discussions with MEC. I think he sits on a number of other boards, virtually, ex officio on behalf of the province.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I will not have any problem in identifying the roles which Mr. Bessey has been carrying out. However, I should inform the committee that Mr. Bessey is leaving the employ of government within a short period of time and has stepped down from some of those capacities. I would have to check my records as it relates to the membership on the Crocus board. So what he has been doing and what he is going to be doing are two different things.

Mr. Sale: Thank you for that information. I do not know whether he is leaving government entirely. Is he leaving the province's employment? Is that the intention?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether it is my place to tell members what Mr. Bessey's intentions are, but he is leaving the employ of government. If he wants to check with Mr. Bessey, I will give him his phone number. I know what he is going to do, but it is not my place to tell people.

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Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I take the minister's comment as absolutely appropriate.

This is just a minor point of clarification. On page 57 in the Supplementary Information Estimates book the term "Economic Development Branch" is used, and I cannot find the term "branch" anyplace else. What is the entity referred to as the Economic Development Branch? Is it just a typo? Is it the board?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, it was just a place for a word, and we had to find a word to put in there. That is the reason why we used branch.

Mr. Sale: So is the entity the Economic Development Board? Is that what we are referring to?

Mr. Downey: Yes, it is.

Mr. Sale: Okay. Just for my own clarification so that I am not looking for something that is not there.

On the organizational chart the term "Managing Partner" is used. Does this actually mean anything or is it a buzzword for something that we find more typically in chartered accountant firms and investment firms? What is the point here?

Mr. Downey: Well, without doing a lot of research, it means that those people who are in those positions get a pay cheque every month. That is one thing it means.

No, I think it is a matter of trying to make sure that the terminology that is there is to try and have them in a position, when they are interfacing with potential businesses, companies, that they are seen as people in a relatively senior role with decision-making capabilities. As limited as it is, it is still a matter of giving a presence to that title that carries some major responsibility with it; on an economic-development front, a little different than what has traditionally been used, whether it was assistant deputy ministers, directors--directors of what? The managing partner of the aerospace industry, to me, means that that individual is very much integrated and part of the whole activities that are carried on. That is the meaning behind it, as I interpret it.

Mr. Sale: I think it is a good defence. I am not sure it actually means anything. I guess the term "managing partner" to me means someone who has signing authority, that has the capacity to commit resources in a substantial way. In the private sector, when one deals with a managing partner, you are dealing with somebody who has the ability to come to the table, make a commitment, perhaps not to bet the firm, but at least to represent the area that that person is managing and commit the resources of that area. If that is what it conveys then I think that is a useful term. If it means that this person can, without wandering up through the bureaucracy and getting Treasury Board's approval, make things happen, then I think it is a useful term.

An Honourable Member: Is there such a thing anywhere?

Mr. Sale: Well, if you have a special operating authority, in some cases, yes. If these were SOEs or SOAs, depending on your terminology, and really are that kind of an organization, then I think the terminology is appropriate. Okay?

An Honourable Member: Okay. Carry on.

Mr. Sale: All right. Thank you. So that is the second question. Is there then an intention to create any of these as special operating authorities or special operating entities within the current Manitoba understanding of those kinds of organizations?

Mr. Downey: Again, at this particular time the answer would be, I would probably be open to consideration if somebody could make a case for it as far as actively going out and aggressively doing it. At this point I would say, no, but I am open. I say that genuinely. We are seeing a major change and shift in global trading patterns.

We are seeing shifts and major changes within industry in Manitoba and our job, quite frankly, is to be a customer-provider of service and interface with those industries. If we could do it a better way and if it could be shown that I could do it a better way with the department, I am very open to that kind of a discussion and would have to proceed through a process, as you have indicated, Treasury Board, structure of government has to give certain approvals.

I am open to it. I know some of the people who work within the system may come forward with ideas of how they could better provide services, so to sit here and say, no, I am not--to be quite honest, we are in a very changing world and a fast changing world out there and to say, we are going to fix for the next period of time, this is the way business is done in the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, I think I would be less than responsible.

Flexibility, customer service--if you heard during the election campaign, the Premier made a commitment of which I think we all have to be very cognizant and that is that we are going to provide a more customer-friendly government. That is what it is all about. We take taxpayers money to provide service, to maximize the use of that money. To say that forever and a day we have a fixed structure, I think, would be less than honest with the public.

I think we have to be prepared to present ourselves as flexible and effective. For sure we have the former president of the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce as part of our caucus, who, I am sure, after having observed and seen the way in which activities take place will have some positive contribution to make in helping us structure to satisfy the business community.

I know from past comments coming from different organizations like the chamber, there are ways which we can improve. I am open to those kinds of suggestions, and I would be less than honest--I do not have an immediate fixed plan right in front of me today that I am going to make specific changes--but again, open to it. Maybe the member may, from his capacity, convince me that I should have changed to a special operating agency or to do something, privatize in some way that would be helpful to the industry.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Minister, I am certainly not advocating privatization of this particular department, but I will say in the spirit of, I think for me at least, a very useful discussion--although it may be boring for those who know the area better, I am finding this very helpful. Having been an assistant deputy minister it used to drive me bonkers to not be able to spend $50 of a $1.1 billion budget for which I was legally responsible. It was absolutely nuts, and I would say to you that it was your colleague, the former Minister of Education, currently the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach), who seemed to not understand that micromanagement does not work, that if you want to manage something, you have got to manage the big things, not the little things.

Government is still bedevilled, this government is still bedevilled with micromanagement, and what I am hearing at least is that this department, however effective it may be, is still in fact being managed in a traditional way, though some of its terminology may be new, that the various sectors still have to get very senior-level approval for virtually all initiatives that are taken. That may be appropriate. Maybe you want to defend that, but I certainly did not find micromanagement to be either efficient or helpful in the public sector.

My dream was one day to be able to have a cheap airfare to Toronto so I could save the people of Manitoba 400 or 500 bucks on a trip to a meeting that I had to attend, but I could never get approval to go until about four days before. So I never could get a cheap fare, because I had to get approval to attend meetings on which I was actually the provincial delegate. Now that is nonsense. At least what I have heard from the bureaucracy over the last few years is there has not been a lot of change in that area yet. I hope there will be some time soon.

Mr. Downey: Well, I do not know whether the member is looking for a comment or not. It is a matter of, when you are in the business of providing public service, one always has to be accountable and openly accountable for the way in which monies are spent. The micromanagement which the member is talking about, quite often the politicians get picked up and criticized for the smaller expenditures because people generally understand that wasting money at any size is not appropriate. Of course, I have heard many times, if you look after the pennies, the dollars will look after themselves--

Mr. Sale: Which is a fallacy.

Mr. Downey: Well, the member disagrees. Some people say you should look after them all. Again it is a matter of management style. In certain areas, quite frankly, I do not disagree. There are certain areas that more flexibility could be in fact brought to the table.

I would add one further thing, quite frankly, and this has nothing to do with the debate we are in specifically, but a little of my own philosophy on the table as it relates to this committee process. I think that there may be an opportunity to debate with government ministers policy issues, and the details of expenditure, which departmental staff are responsible for, probably should be the ones that are directly answering to the committee, but that is not the way the tradition of the committee has worked. The minister sits here and answers the question and the information is forwarded through.

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I am just putting my own personal thought out, being a rookie in this business, as I said. Mr. Chairperson, I do apologize to the committee for deviating a little bit.

Mr. Sale: I know that having sat on the staff side, you alternate between joy and cringing at the various answers that are given. I remember one particular minister on our side of the House who used to send staff into paroxysms of activity overnight in order to find some way of justifying what had been given, so I am well familiar with that.

I want to ask about two entities at the bottom of the org chart not reflected on this chart, MDC and MTC, the Manitoba Trading Corporation. In the throne speech a couple of years ago the minister may remember the throne speech saying my ministers advised me that the Manitoba Trading Corporation will be activated and refocused with a new mandate to connect Manitoba businesses with emerging export opportunities, and later on in the Estimates there is a line for an appropriation of I think $500,000 to put some more oomph into this corporation. There is a debit which I do not understand, and I will ask under the particular line, of $200,000.

If the minister could briefly comment on his relationship to the MTC, indicate who the senior staff person is, responsible for it, and what the intentions are here.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, the chairman of both is Mr. Stephen Kupfer who is sitting at the table with me. Let me give a credit to the member for Crescentwood. I am pleased that he is seeing fit to go back and read the throne speeches of the past and he has been paying attention to what has been going on. I am encouraged by that, but I have to say that is why it was important that we got another mandate, because we had to deliver a lot of those things that were talked about in those throne speeches.

We are now in the final developmental stages and the direction which they are going to go. I talked a lot about trade and development. Those will be the instruments that will be used to further enhance the development of trade of Manitoba companies and the major initiative in the trading field. I say that that was a vision at that time. It is now coming closer to a reality. Mr. Kupfer is very actively involved in it and going through a process of putting it in place to be activated to do the things that we envisaged it doing, that is, enhancing trade, helping companies trade from Manitoba as we continue to expand and grow into the great global economy and opportunities that are before us.

Mr. Sale: That was a wonderful answer, and we will all live happily ever after. Is this the entity that is referred to as giving a focused identity, focused single identity to Manitoba's role in this area? Is that the intention, that you are going to bring the activities of the department under this thing?

Mr. Downey: That is correct.

Mr. Sale: Is there, then, any intention to, because the trading corporation is, maybe it is not an SOE, but it is close--it is virtually a separate corporation from government. It does have a corporate identity, I think--is the intention to transfer staff and resources from the current department to MTC and build a special operating agency of that type?

Mr. Downey: Those are all in current discussion at this particular time but no final decision has been made.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. It is somewhat at odds with what he said earlier in regard to special operating authority or special operating entity expansion plans. This sounds, and I am not prejudging the usefulness of it, but this sounds rather like the idea is that if you put a framework in place called the Manitoba Trading Corporation and you give it a corporate identity and significant resources, all of which may be a very good thing, you would then, logically, it would seem to me, particularly since Mr. Kupfer is the staff person responsible for this, logically, admin and finance, perhaps not, but at least the business services and strategic initiatives might well then become the subentities through which MTC does its work and might logically, therefore, be special operating authority as a whole entity. Is this on the table, Mr. Chairperson, as a plan?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, as I said, there is no final decision made on it. We are in discussion as it relates to that. As I said a few minutes ago, and I do not see it as being contrary to what I said, we are in a developmental stage of this program, of this instrument which we believe will enhance trade for Manitoba. As having a final and fixed stamp as to what it should be, it has not been decided. I have to say though, I am very open to how best we can establish it and put it in position to best satisfy the needs of the customers, which are the taxpayers and those people who are out there promoting Manitoba and their businesses.

Mr. Sale: I will ask some more questions on this in the particular appropriation under which I think MTC comes in the Estimates. Could the minister indicate what is happening with MDC? My recollection is that it is being either wound up or partially wound up. Could he unpack that a bit for us?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, basically what the Manitoba Development Corporation is used for is the instrument in which government holds---

Mr. Sale: --shares like Repap?

Mr. Downey: No, that is not the case. What it does is any departmental activity that is carried out, for example, again that is the instrument to basically look after the Manitoba Industrial Opportunities loan programs, the program which we supported, the Pine Falls Paper Company. That is the instrument we used to be part of those actions.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Minister, I think that has been the traditional role, and it is one that I think began in the Schreyer years that has been used for that kind of purpose by a variety of governments. My recollection was that some major changes were being made to MDC. Am I incorrect in that regard?

Mr. Downey: Say it again, please?

Mr. Sale: My understanding was that major changes are being made to MDC in terms of its role or scope, that it was being partially wound down or closed or transferred or something.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, as the member is aware, there is new legislation that is being proposed. What it is doing is changing the make-up of the board. The traditional role of MDC was the board was able to go out and make loans outside of government. That is no longer the case. The role which it will play is what I have indicated. It will look after and administer the activities of government as they participate, whether it is the Manitoba Industrial Opportunities Program, but they do not have the capability of going out making loans on their own. The loans are carried out and approved through EDB or I, T and T within government.

Mr. Sale: I have the Order-in-Council that makes the new appointments here, and I congratulate Mr. Kupfer in his new role as chairman and director.

An Honourable Member: His salary did not go up.

Mr. Sale: Yes, I think probably it is "other duties as assigned" is how this one comes.

Will MDC be showing on its books this year any winding-up costs or writing off of existing past loans or activities? Will this change the accounting practices and will there be any one-time losses associated?

Mr. Downey: No.

Mr. Sale: The Executive Salaries and Benefits line has gone up by essentially $101,000. I am wondering if that is just one staff person's salary, and if so, who it is?

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Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, it was when the employment took place of the deputy minister.

Mr. Sale: I am puzzled. There has always been a deputy minister in I, T and T. This sounds like another deputy minister.

Mr. Downey: No, it is the deputy minister. It was the creation of the acting deputy minister that was added--assistant deputy minister, I am sorry, who carries out that role.

Mr. Sale: Just a comment broadly that this department has a lot of management and relatively smaller numbers of staff. The term the armed forces uses is teeth to tail. This has a fair amount of tail, I think, and I wonder if the minister would comment on the number of senior staff in the department and the number of professional staff versus the overall staff totals.

Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I took it as an observation more than I did a question.

Mr. Sale: I will just observe for the record that there are 19 managers and a minister. There are 60 administrative support staff managing a total of 106 professional and technical staff. That seems to me to be not the essence of a flat organization as was commented on earlier, so I will just simply put that on the record.

We are now on page 6, Schedule 4. I just have some questions on some of the grants before we move to the first subappropriation.

I wonder if the minister could comment on the reasons for the very large changes year over year in five of these grants, the Centres of Excellence grant is down 20 percent, the Surface Transportation Technology has quintupled, the Manitoba Business Development Fund is down a half million dollars, the Canada-Manitoba Partnership is cut in half, roughly, and ARCOR, I guess, maybe those are winding up charges that are different, that are being gradually absorbed here. It is down more than 20 percent. So could the minister comment on those five major changes in the grants?

Mr. Downey: Could the member give us the five again, please?

Mr. Sale: Centres of Excellence, Surface Transportation, Manitoba Business Development Fund, Canada-Manitoba Partnership Agreement and Aging and Rehabilitation Products Development Centre--I would just like some explanation of the fairly significant changes in the grant levels in each of those.

Mr. Downey: Manitoba Centres of Excellence is a program in which we participate with the federal government. The federal government--it is in several phases and it is winding up, although I understand there will be a new additional phase brought forward. It is a joint program, and it was federal decision that has caused this to actually take place or to trigger.

Surface Transportation is the five-year agreement, again with the federal government, of which resources were not spent over the earlier part of it and have now been identified at the latter part of the agreement.

That was the Business Development Fund--one of those dastardly cuts that Treasury Board helped us make.

Mr. Sale: I am sorry, could the minister repeat the Manitoba Business Development Fund?

Mr. Downey: It was a decision made as it related to discussions with Treasury Board as to being able to meet a target, and that was the reason for that decision. The Canada-Manitoba agreement is the tourism industry agreement which is in a wind-down position, and the Aging and Rehabilitation Products Centre, ARCOR, which it is known as, again was a budgetary decision as it related to what would be possibly needed. Subsequent to this, of course, the decision has been taken by the board of directors to totally wind down the ARCOR business.

Mr. Sale: I am not sure whether it is appropriate to ask these questions now. Could the Chair clarify, is this appropriation part of some other appropriation? Is this an automatic pass? Could you clarify the procedural question here?

Mr. Downey: I think we could get into the actual Estimates line by line, and we can pick this up as we get through it. It would be more appropriate to ask the detailed questions at that time. It will appear again as we go through the Estimates book, and to be quite fair to the member, if we miss it, then it always can be picked up in the Minister's Salary. You have all ways of catching me.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Did the honourable member for Crescentwood have any more at this point?

Mr. Sale: I am prepared to move into 10.1(1), this is the one we are in now. I know that it has taken a long time to get there, but I am prepared to move into that, if I just check my notes here. Perhaps the minister could just answer a couple of more questions here, and then I am prepared to pass on 1.(b).

Who is actually carrying the responsibility for ARCOR at the present time in the winding-up stages?

Mr. Downey: Basically, the former chairman of the board is being put into the capacity of administering the wind-down of ARCOR.

Mr. Sale: This line will show up again under another subappropriation, so I will ask a couple of other questions about it then.

We have clarified--no, I am sorry, we have not clarified it. Who is actually responsible in the department for the airport authority process? I know you have a representative on the interim board. What staff area?

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Mr. Downey: The Managing Partner of Aerospace Industries, Dennis Cleve, sits on the NHDA board.

Mr. Sale: The third, just a broad procedural question. Mr. Eldridge, I believe, is still responsible for interprovincial trade and trade relations?

Mr. Downey: That is correct.

Mr. Sale: Thank you.

Mr. Downey: No, no.

Mr. Sale: No, no?

Mr. Downey: You said, interprovincial trade?

Mr. Sale: Yes.

Mr. Downey: No, I am sorry, it is Alan Barber who works within the department. Jim Eldridge is intergovernmental affairs.

Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that. I thought Mr. Eldridge also carried the trade responsibility. So it is again Mr.--

Mr. Downey: Alan Barber, Research and Economic Services.

Mr. Sale: We are almost at the end of the day, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Barber, then will he be present for the Estimates' line under which he is responsible? No? Yes?

Mr. Downey: He could be, but I cannot guarantee it, because he is doing a considerable amount of travelling as it relates to the interprovincial. I do not want to make a commitment that cannot be lived up to, but, again, I, as the co-chair, will be able to pull the information forward.

Mr. Sale: Just to let the minister know that I want to ask some fairly detailed questions about the interprovincial trade discussions around the MUSH sector, so-called. Lots of mushy questions. I am not sure when we will get into that, it may be tomorrow, it may be on Monday, but I have just given the minister notice that I do want to ask questions in that area.

I have no other questions for 10.1.(a).

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member for Crescentwood.

Mr. Lamoureux: Inkster. It is okay, Mr. Chairperson. We kind of look alike. That is fine.

Actually I have a number of questions that I would like to kind of follow up on. The first one, dealing with a couple of the points that I brought up, one of course was the whole question of capital and access to capital. The member for Crescentwood infers in his statements in questioning that he had posed to the minister that his being the critic through the party does not necessarily perceive this need for extra capital dollars being made available.

I was pleased to hear the remarks from the minister to a certain degree in the sense that he does acknowledge that there is a need that is out there for businesses to have access to capital. You know, I have had some of the discussion that the minister has made reference to when he said, for example, we have large civil service groups, whether it is MTS or the nurses, and they all contribute to rather large pensions. A lot of that money, if not all of it, quite possibly, leaves the province.

I remember having a discussion with members of MTS in particular with respect to those dollars leaving the province. Quite often these dollars leave the province because it is maybe, they venture into an area through financial managers, if you will, that say, look, we can get a better rate of return, lower risk, that sort of thing, and this is one of the reasons why the capital dollars leave the province.

I have had a number of different discussions, and the leader of the Liberal Party has had numerous discussions with different business people, entrepreneurs, and these entrepreneurs have indicated that it is very difficult to gain access to capital.

I am wondering if the minister can give more of an indication if he as the minister or the department receives complaints at all or what they are doing just to find out the severity of the problem. Does the minister believe that in fact it is not necessarily a significant problem that has to be addressed by this government?

Mr. Downey: I appreciate the member's comments. I do consider it as a significant problem. We considered it significant enough that we set up a task force of private-sector individuals to deal with it.

Again, the member is aware of the task force report which has been tabled. It is available to him and, again, I want to indicate that we are taking action as it relates to the recommendations that flow from that capital markets task force organization and group. So, yes, we take it seriously. We believe that it is an impediment to future business expansion in Manitoba. The full access to available capital has been identified. We are dealing with it. Hopefully, over the next short period of time, we are able to see some successes as it relates to the development of a capital fund for the types and sizes of business which we talked about earlier.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, prior to the session getting underway, I had toured a pasta plant. In this pasta plant the owner had indicated to me how wonderful it would be if she could gain access to capital in order to purchase the fairly expensive machinery, but she was being somewhat frustrated in the sense that the bank was not necessarily as accommodating.

What would the minister indicate to someone in that sort of a situation that she should do? Is there something which the department, through different programs, can ensure that possibly this individual and her business can assist in terms of preparing maybe a better proposal if that is what needs to be done or to ensure that the banking institutions are providing opportunities for entrepreneurs such as this particular lady?

Mr. Downey: In the most generous way possible I will tell the member--and I am not being overly political or do not mean to be harsh or cruel to the Liberal Party. If the Liberal leader would have gotten the mandate to govern this province there would not have been any reason for that individual to come to talk to that government. Because the election went the way it did on April 25 we still have programs and support and people involved in business development that we would more than welcome that individual to come forward and discuss with us the opportunities of either raising capital or the availability of capital through a program within government.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, actually I would challenge the Deputy Premier with the comments that he made in the sense that I would argue quite the opposite. The Liberal Party in the last election talked about ensuring that there were going to be capital dollars made available for individuals that want and have a good idea, compared to the current administration over the last seven years.

I listened as the New Democratic and the Filmon representative commented on this whole bidding war--well, you know the Liberals were not prepared to give money to businesses. If the Deputy Premier or the Filmon candidate would like to debate the issue of which party had a better policy platform, I do not make any qualms whatsoever in the sense that I am prepared to defend and ultimately argue that many of the businesses that are out there and policies that were directed from the party, the government should actually be looking to. Some of those policies such as training dollars--and there are many jobs. Even the Deputy Premier made reference to those jobs in terms of the garment industry. If in fact there were training dollars being invested in people as opposed to possibly a bidding war between different provinces in order to try to lure a so-called Tupperware where the dollars go and so does the company, maybe the long-term outlook of the local economy would be in a lot better shape.

The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) had very valid points when he talked about the GDP and the impact or what that says in itself. It is very easy for us to say, here is $2 million or $3 million to a company in order to bring in--

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.