Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Justice.

Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.

We are on Resolution 4.(2)(c) Provincial Policing.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I know that members on this committee had a late night last night. I raised some questions yesterday, notwithstanding our collective rhetoric yesterday, I was wondering if the minister could report back today.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Just following up on the member's issue which he raised yesterday on behalf of a constituent. I have had, in fact, a little time to look over the file and the progress of this particular set of inquiries. I needed to make sure that there was no reason, or nothing outstanding which would cause me not to be able to meet with your constituent. I find that there is not, so if it would be helpful to you and to him, I am certainly prepared to make the offer today that I will have a meeting with your constituent and attempt to go over the issues with him and attempt to provide the answers to the best of my ability for the questions that he has raised.

* (1450)

Mr. Doer: I could not hear everything with the air conditioner with my age. I know that they have these things. I understand the minister has offered to meet with the constituent and I will facilitate it with her office immediately, rather than if you could have a direct meeting with him, I would really appreciate it. I think he would as well. I appreciate that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, it is not in the Justice budget line. It is in a line from Lotteries I believe.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister justify to the committee how she can say there was $2 million for additional City of Winnipeg policing in the budget given that there is no identification whatsoever in any document that there is $2 million for policing.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the $2 million identified by this government to be given to the City of Winnipeg Police for a targeted grant is in the budget of the government of Manitoba this year, and it is contained in the line from Lotteries.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, is the minister saying that, in budgetary documents available to Manitobans, the $2 million is earmarked for the City of Winnipeg Police Services?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, if the member would like to have further details regarding exactly how that $2 million is listed in the budget document, I would refer him to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), but I have said it is not contained in the budget line of the Department of Justice.

Mr. Mackintosh: I want the minister to confirm with this committee that before the election there was indeed no public representation whatsoever that the government was going to be spending $2 million on additional policing in the city of Winnipeg. If I am wrong, I want the minister to correct me. Is she saying that there was a document produced by this government at the time of the budget indicating the $2 million to go to Winnipeg Police Services? That is all. I am not trying to be cantankerous. I just want to know, and I would like the minister to advise me if there is a document or if she can produce a document that so indicates.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as I have answered in each question, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) is the one who is best able to answer how the $2 million is allocated in the budget line and in the budget line through Lotteries. So his questions are best directed to that minister, but what I can assure him of is this government's commitment to provide the $2 million to the City of Winnipeg Police to provide 40 more officers which will, we believe, assist in the whole public safety initiative for the people of the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister has made statements that the $2 million allocated for additional police officers for the City of Winnipeg is included in the budget. Would the minister advise where in the Estimates lines the amount is.

Mrs. Vodrey: It is contained in a budget line from Lotteries.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is it anywhere in the Estimates of the Department of Justice?

Mrs. Vodrey: No it is not. I can assure him of this, this government's commitment to provide the $2 million to the City of Winnipeg Police to provide 40 more officers, which will, we believe, assist in the whole public safety initiative for the people of the city of Winnipeg.

* (1500)

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the minister cannot purport to say that there is a new allocation of monies for the City of Winnipeg Police Services, made in advance of the election, when there is no evidence to support that. The minister has said that this money was dedicated to this purpose before the election. I want to know, I want to see the evidence. Why is it not in the Minister of Justice's Estimates, if that, indeed, is the case? It is not in here. The minister had time to prepare this. The document was prepared following the budget and the Estimates compilation by the government. She cannot point to any line in her budget where there are additional policing monies for the City of Winnipeg.

Mrs. Vodrey: I have provided for the member an answer to every question he has asked regarding the provision of $2 million to the City of Winnipeg Police Services for 40 more officers. The member seems to be seeking something. I really am finding it very difficult to understand what it is he wants to know. I have told him that the Minister of Finance is the minister to ask. The minister who is responsible for Lotteries, the Minister of Finance, will be able to explain to him exactly the process of this budget allocation.

The important part for the Department of Justice is that $2 million has been allocated in the interest of public safety to provide 40 more police officers to the City of Winnipeg. That is exactly the process that we are undertaking now, and the member seems to be arguing. I do not really know what he is arguing about. However, if he has questions again regarding that line, I would direct him to the Minister of Finance.

Mr. Mackintosh: If I have questions regarding policing in Manitoba, I will direct them to the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice has made statements in this House that the item, the amount of $2 million for the City of Winnipeg Police, was included in the budget, a budget which she said, of course, the opposition voted against, as if to say that somehow the opposition was opposed to additional monies for the City of Winnipeg Police Services when in fact no one knew about it.

I suggest to this committee that the $2 million for the City of Winnipeg Police was taken out of the election slush fund. The minister wants to call it the Lotteries line, or whatever it is. The monies for policing have nothing to do with the Minister of Finance; they have to do with this minister. I asked this minister: Where, in her departmental Estimates, is there an amount for City of Winnipeg policing in the amount of $2 million?

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the member, I do not know--he does not seem to understand. The money is there. I would love to suggest this was my idea, but I must say--however, in consultation with colleagues, I suppose, the consideration raised by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) is that, had he been aware himself of this, he would have voted for the budget. That would have been terrific. That might have been exactly the stimulus that he needed, but what we know on this side of the House is that he voted against it. And the $2 million, provided for the City of Winnipeg Police Services, is contained in this budget that he voted against.

Now, I am more than happy to answer questions relating to policing and am prepared to do that, and, you know, I have no problem as long as we sit here on this particular line of questioning, but as I said to the member, the money was promised by this government, it is in the process of being processed, and I simply can direct him to the Minister of Finance which I have done in answers to every question so far this afternoon.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the minister has reinforced in my mind, at least, that she has misled this Chamber--[interjection]--this is no point of order--that the minister has misled this committee and this Chamber--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I would ask that you rule on the member attributing the motive and saying out, quite freely, the term "misled". It seems to me, Mr. Chair, that that is an unparliamentary comment.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. Johns on the same point of order.

Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, Mr. Chair, I ask that you admonish the minister for interrupting every time I--I should not exaggerate--but interrupt on a regular basis. I chose my words carefully. The word, I am sure you will find, is not unparliamentary. In fact, that word is essential for parliamentary democracy to function, free speech.

Mr. Chairperson: Order please. The honourable member for St. Johns did not have a point of order. He was only speaking to the honourable minister.

The honourable minister did not have a point of order on the issue because the word "misled" is not considered unparliamentary unless it is led by the word "deliberately".

The honourable member for St. Johns, to continue.

* * *

Mr. Mackintosh: As I was saying, Mr. Chair, I am coming to the firm opinion that this minister has misled this Chamber and the people of Manitoba by saying that the $2 million for the City of Winnipeg Police Services was a part of an ongoing program or simply an announcement of decisions made before the election rather than an election promise, and I say that because the minister used that line of defence when we asked why she, or her department, had contacted and asked the chief of police of Winnipeg Police Services to attend a Progressive Conservative Party political election campaign promise announcement. The minister has clearly failed to provide any evidence, whatsoever, that the $2 million had been earmarked before the election and was part of the government's plan for the fiscal year. I ask the minister if she would now advise the committee when the additional police officers will be finished their training and will be deployed.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would not want the member to have unanswered on the record what he has attempted to put forward. First of all, I am puzzled by the fact that he is trying to put something forward, I really do not know what it is, what point he is trying to make.

I can tell him, as I have told the House before, the $2 million was allocated within the budget of the Province of Manitoba, the budget he voted against. That money has been available, earmarked for additional police officers for the City of Winnipeg Police. The amount of money is $2 million. There is nothing about that, Mr. Chair, that should cause him to be concerned or worried or to feel somehow that something has happened that he did not know about.

This has been spoken about. I spoke about it. The Premier spoke about it. He characterized, however, the announcement of the dollar amount, in a very, very political way. It was made very clear at the time that this was an announcement of an expenditure of funds which was already contained in the budget. The people who attended on that day were people who were directly affected by the amount of money that is being set aside.

I really do not know where he is going with that, but I felt it was very important to at least put answers again, the same answers that I have given all afternoon, but answers again on the record.

The member asks when the officers will be finished their training. I am not able to provide him with the exact date. As the member knows, we have asked the City of Winnipeg to provide us with their plan, how exactly the dollars will be used, what their intake process and procedure will be. That is now being examined by the government of Manitoba. Two meetings have occurred with the City of Winnipeg on this matter and I hope that I will be able to provide him with those answers very shortly. I expect to be able to do that certainly within the next couple of weeks.

* (1510)

Mr. Mackintosh: An issue that I raised in Question Period really rests on the listed expected result of this appropriation number of this area of the department, which says, increased emphasis on community-based policing through proactive efforts.

Again, I ask the minister how she can justify that listed expected result with no effort whatsoever on her part to ensure that every cent of the $2 million goes to community-based policing rather than traditional policing.

Mrs. Vodrey: I can tell the member that in terms of the expected results, I have met with the chief for the City of Winnipeg Police Services. I have explained the emphasis that we have as a government that officers should be available, officers should be visible to the public. We would really like those officers to work in two areas of high priority. I have explained those to the committee in the past couple of days. Those areas are auto theft and vandalism and youth crime. However, the availability of officers on the street, we believe, will assist in the area of community-based policing.

I have made sure that the chief was aware of what our government's interests are. However, as I have said to the member from the very beginning, with that in mind, the chief is still the person who will decide on the deployment of officers. We will be looking at the plan that has been sent by the chief, and I am confident that the deployment of officers will be done in a very thoughtful way and one which will really benefit the citizens of the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Mackintosh: I guess I have to acknowledge that the Progressive Conservative Party's announcement in this regard was made, I think, some three days after the NDP released its platform, which included $2 million for additional community-based policing. It was community-based policing, and it was our intention certainly to attach a condition to any monies going to police services in the province. I ask the minister why she did not see fit to offer to cost share and use the carrot of $2 million to obtain not just 40 but more, and perhaps as many as 80 additional police officers.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the NDP's announcement did play catch-up with the plan of this government in terms of putting forward more police officers on the street. He seems to have trouble with that, but that is exactly what happened. Mr. Chair, the member also wants to have--he wanted in his plan to make sure that his party, his opposition party, would in fact direct the placement of officers on the street, but I have had a number of opportunities to speak with the chief of police. The chief has made it clear to me--and I have to say I think it is a very important point--that the deployment of officers is his decision, his responsibility, and when for some reason the deployment has shown itself to be not the correct deployment, it is his decision and his alone, and his responsibility alone which he says is his to accept. Somehow, if he tries to cast that in another direction, even if it is to the member of an opposition party, he feels that that is not appropriate.

So the member and his opposition party may decide that they would like to direct the chief of police to deploy officers in a certain way, but the chief of police has made it clear that that is the responsibility of the chief of police. Now, he very happily enters into discussion. He will, I believe, listen but, ultimately, when it comes down to the safety of the people of the city of Winnipeg it is the chief who really has to take that responsibility that he accepts.

The member then asked in Question Period as well, why did we not try and cost-share this? It is not the first time, again, that the opposition party has tried to step into another elected official's jurisdiction, the jurisdiction of the City of Winnipeg, in this case, or the Winnipeg Police Services and try and direct taxpayers' money. If the people of the city of Winnipeg saw their taxes increase they could look to the opposition party and they would say that the opposition party is responsible for the raising of the taxes of the people of the city of Winnipeg.

He would like to direct, as an opposition party, other jurisdictions of government continually. This government made the decision not to make our offer of police officers contingent on the decision of another level of government or to direct another level of government. We decided that we would simply come right up front, provide the grant, which would lead to the 40 more police officers. We believed that was in the best interest of the people of the city of Winnipeg.

Now, the member might have wanted to hold that up. He might have wanted to hold it up till somehow he could come to some agreement with the City of Winnipeg or, given the fact that he would direct the City of Winnipeg to match the grant, wait to see if in fact they were able to match it, and we still would not have any more police officers on the street, not one.

I believe that the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) and his opposition colleagues have gone the wrong way there. In this case, this government came up, we have made the decision to provide the money. It is not contingent on a matching from the City of Winnipeg. We have not attempted to direct another jurisdiction and we are confident that the chief of police will place the officers where they are most needed.

Mr. Mackintosh: All that diatribe was based on the silliest notion and it is hardly worth even rising to rebut it, but I feel I am called on. For the minister to somehow base her whole argument on the notion that we were going to direct the Chief of Police to do anything is such nonsense it hardly serves the people of this province.

Making monies available is hardly directing, and having conditions on monies available is hardly directing.

Further, to suggest that offering the monies on a cost-sharing basis is hardly directing the city to raise taxes, it is the city's prerogative whether to accept such an offer or not and do what it wishes and make priorities, which may not include raising taxes

Given that the amount is clearly not within the departmental spending Estimates for the Department of Justice, would the minister advise whether this $2 million is to be a permanent feature of her budget?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, what I can confirm is that the grant is intended to be recurring. The placement of that grant, whether in next year's Estimates or budget it will appear in the Department of Justice or continue to appear as it does now in money from Lotteries, I am not able to tell him that. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) may be the one who can answer how that grant will be laid out.

* (1520)

Mr. Mackintosh: Now the minister, after going on the phony assumption of what this side was saying about how the money should be used, has to now explain that, if she is so against directing the City of Winnipeg Police Services to do anything, why is it that throughout the campaign and in the literature the Progressive Conservative Party said that the funds will pay for officers to combat crimes, specifically motor vehicle thefts and youth crime? Is it in fact a condition and a direction, or is it not? How does she expect that those particular crimes can be targeted? Are there certain officers that are going to walk down the street and turn their head when they see a break-and-enter and just look for the car theft? How can the minister justify that kind of announcement?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as I am reading the document, which I believe the member has in front of him and that is where he has been getting his information, it says that the additional officers will be on the street to focus on combatting crimes against people, property and youth violence. That is a focus that we are interested in. That is a focus that has been communicated to the chief. However, from the very beginning, on the day of the announcement and every meeting from that time, we have made it clear that the chief is the one who will determine how to do this.

The member has a very sheltered view somehow of the fact that, if someone is doing only that one thing, then they cannot stop and do anything else. I do not know how he has ever had that experience with a police officer that a police officer will walk away from--[laughter] He is laughing now.

Mr. Chair, I believe the member has misunderstood again. Perhaps he has something more he would like to add, and then perhaps I can answer him.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to return to the matter of the $2 million and the 40 officers. The minister has told us several times that she has, or somebody has, allocated $2 million and 40 officers for the City of Winnipeg. In response to the member for St. Johns' question about the implementation of the community policing program, she said that she did not really know when these police officers would be ready to work.

I wonder if she could give some sort of general time line. I understand that she cannot be specific, but is it going to be the fall, next winter? When will it be, generally speaking?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I know from meetings with the chief that he wants to proceed as quickly as possible. It does take a period of recruitment, and it takes about one year for officers to be fully qualified and on the street.

Ms. McGifford: Does that mean that this policing program will not be in place for another year?

Mrs. Vodrey: The program is one which will require the training of officers and the costs through the training process also of recruitment. So there is a process that has to be satisfied while we are putting those officers on the street. So the program will go into place as quickly as possible, but the member asked how long till new police officers are actually on the street fully qualified. I presume she means fully qualified. Fully qualified is about a year, but costs do not start just then when they go on the street fully qualified. In fact, the costs are there during the training process, recruitment process and so on.

Ms. McGifford: I am sorry, I had understood from earlier information and perhaps I had misunderstood that the police officers or the future police officers had indeed already been recruited and that the training portion of the program had begun.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, perhaps some misunderstanding in that there is an ongoing process of recruitment because there are always a number of officers who leave the force by way of attrition, retirements and so on. So the police service does have a process of ongoing recruitment.

What the 40 new officers will require is additional or stepped-up recruitment in order to meet the 40 new officers. So I am not sure if the member is asking can I today say which members within a recruitment class are members for the attrition group and members for the new group. I am not able to tell her that today.

Ms. McGifford: What I was asking was have these 40 officers, these specific officers, been recruited?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am trying to understand the question as the member has been putting it. Just let me try again.

There has been recruitment. There is ongoing recruitment. There is additional recruitment required for the 40 new officers. Though some officers have been recruited, and I understand there is a training class which has very recently started, I am not able to tell her today which within that class the chief would designate as those officers that he would see as the augmentation or the 40 officers that he might see as the officers being recruited as part of the normal process to fill in areas of attrition.

I do not have the information today. I certainly will be happy to give it to her when I receive it, because one part that we are interested in is we want to make sure that there are, in fact, 40 new officers, not just a loss of 40, and 40 new officers, but the complement remains the same. The complement will increase by 40 officers. I am not able to tell her today which within a recruitment group or class are those 40 officers a part of. The chief will have to inform me when that information is available.

* (1530)

Ms. McGifford: I am sorry that the minister has had such a struggle with my questioning. I am sorry, too, that she appears to be getting impatient with me. I am not trying to be frivolous.

Part of my constituency happens to be Osborne Village. In Osborne Village levels of vandalism and petty crime are very high. I have received phone calls from several businesses that are very concerned about their businesses, very concerned about what might happen this summer. They believe that as the weather grows hotter--and we wonder if it really can get much hotter. Anyway, as we enter high summer, the business people in Osborne Village are extremely concerned about their futures as businesses, so I am trying to find out whether there will be additional police officers available to see us through the summer.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am sorry the member feels so sensitive about efforts to answer questions. Let me tell her again. I am prepared to spend a long time on this if that will be helpful to her. I have explained that there is a process of recruitment required for the 40 new officers. It takes approximately a year for those officers to be fully trained and fully qualified and be on the street. If the member is asking if officers will suddenly appear on the street within less than 10 days from now or I guess today--it is the first day of summer--if we are looking at those officers being available for June and July, 40 more, my answer would be, I do not think so because it takes some time to fully train those officers.

However, I have said to the member, I think this is the third time I have said it, when the chief is able to provide me with information as to exactly where those 40 officers are in the recruitment and the training process, I will be more than happy to share it. At this point I do not have that information from the chief.

I certainly understand, however, the concern she is raising on behalf of her constituents. That is why I have made the commitment that when I have that information I will be more than happy to share it. I cannot give to her what the chief has not yet provided to me.

Ms. McGifford: I would like to point out that while today may be June 21 and the first day of summer, the government has had seven years to provide proper protection for the businesses and people in Osborne Village. Those people do not feel that they are being properly looked after.

I would like to also comment on something that the honourable minister said in response to a question from my colleague from St. Johns. That is, I believe she said, have you ever seen a police officer ignore one crime because he or she was assigned specifically to only look after another kind of crime?

People in Osborne Village have told me that they have seen police officers deliberately drive by and ignore drug dealings because these officers are overworked and simply cannot cope with the situation in Osborne Village. So, indeed, apparently the kind of thing that the minister scoffed at is happening in Osborne Village.

Anyway, since this line of questioning seems to be going nowhere, I wanted to ask the minister some questions about recruitment which she may not be able to answer. I am interested in the kind of recruitment and if there will be special efforts made to recruit certain kinds of persons to target certain kinds of persons for certain work.

For example, Osborne Village, as I am sure most of you know, is inundated with young people each summer. It may be advisable to have an officer for example who has had considerable experience dealing with youth. I wonder if this kind of targeting relationship or targeting of officers has been part of the recruitment process--or if you do not know about the recruitment process.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the member says, in this House, some very serious allegations regarding the professional duty of police officers, information that she says she has. What I would advise her is that, if she does have that information, or someone known to her has information, then I think she should provide that to the chief of police of the Winnipeg Police Services. It is a serious allegation, and she has said that she has said professional police officers have walked by certain kinds of criminal acts. My response to that is that I certainly hope she will take the action then that falls to her because she is in possession of information that could be very important to professional police work.

In the area of recruitment, as I said, the process we followed is that two meetings have been held with the chief, and included in one of those was a meeting with representatives of the City of Winnipeg. The government of Manitoba has asked for a plan from the City of Winnipeg. Certainly, in the discussions that I have had with the chief, I am very well aware that the chief works very closely with the community and, I believe, has a track record of having taken into account the needs of the community. I am confident that the recruitment will be a sensitive one.

However, if the member, in terms of our discussions, has issues that I could pass on in further discussions, I am happy to do that. I think that our discussions between the chief and myself are important to pass on the information and comments from citizens from the city of Winnipeg, and I will be more than pleased to do that.

I am not able to give her details of the recruitment. Perhaps, if we are still here in Estimates next week or the week after, we may be able to discuss that. I do not have it available today, but when I am able to--and this is the commitment I have undertaken from the very beginning of the line of questioning--I will be more than happy to share the information with her because this is good news. This is good news for the people of the city of Winnipeg that there will be more officers. It is good news, also, in the area of employment.

Ms. McGifford: I know that the chief of police for the City of Winnipeg has a very fine reputation. What was behind my question was the fact that the business people and other people in Osborne Village are very interested in a community police officer, which may or may not be a possibility. I am uncertain where we are at with that.

They believe it is extremely important to have an officer who can create a relationship with the youth in Osborne Village, an officer who has community development skills and community outreach skills because the people of Osborne Village, especially the businesses in Osborne Village, want to create a healthy relationship with the youth in the village.

* (1540)

Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Chairperson, it was not what I first rose to talk about, but I have to comment on the member for Osborne's (Ms. McGifford) suggestion that police officers would be negligent in their duties and drive by incidents of drug dealing or any other criminal offence because they were tired or overworked. Yes, they are human beings but every day, whether it is through the dispatch centre, individual officers have to decide on priorities.

If an officer is en route to a domestic dispute--and often officers do not know when they are dispatched to a domestic dispute how violent it is--would they be better off stopping on Osborne to deal with two young people selling a bag of grass or are they better off protecting a possible violent incident? Officers all the time have to make those judgement calls, dispatchers, inspectors. We send officers from the Winnipeg Police Services to the Canadian Police College to train them in police management to make those decisions.

There will always be concerns about priorities when someone sees a police officer, maybe for the first time in five days, pull up at a Robin's coffee shop to have his first coffee break, maybe his first meal break in five days and people will say, well, I was waiting three hours for someone to come to take my report of a break and enter to my home. So we have to be careful when putting this type of allegation on the record that it could be interpreted as besmirching the reputation of the members of the Winnipeg Police Services.

When I made my opening remarks in Estimates, I was challenged by the Justice minister to speak positively when I see the department and the minister do positive things. Although her memory may be short, I have in the past, but it may be a couple of small things that I want to bring forward.

First of all, when we started Justice Estimates I had not opened my mail yet, but after Estimates I went back and received a document, Undertakings from Committee of Supply, '94-95 Estimates Process, Manitoba Justice, along with a covering letter. My colleague the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) also commented on this document how impressed he was that we have been in a number of departments of Estimates, and the minister and probably some people on her staff have done a wonderful job at replying to the undertakings for information from last year's Estimates. It could have been more timely rather than the day of these Estimates, but I will not denigrate the positive note by saying that.

Before I go on to the other parts, I also want to put on the record that I do not want to appear to be a whiner, but because of our limited resources I cannot be here as often as I would like. I do not think it is fair, when you are not here, to then walk in here and ask questions that may have already been asked. As I said before, I will be relying on Hansard. After this Estimates process any of the questions that I was not able to pose, I hope I could direct them by way of correspondence to the minister, and those questions would be considered questions from Estimates.

I have to applaud the additional police resources to the Winnipeg Police Services that have been undertaken by this government. Are 40 officers enough? There are never enough. I know right now the overtime in the Winnipeg Police Services is skyrocketing. Very seldom in certain divisions in the Winnipeg Police Services do officers work any less than a 16-hour day. I believe the overtime bill will be horrendous for this year. The 40 officers will be a welcome addition.

I think the reorganization of the Winnipeg Police Services so far has not lived up to some of the expectations that the officers had for facilitating more manpower--I should say, staffing on the streets of Winnipeg. There was great expectation that when reorganization went through in the Winnipeg Police Services there would be more street officers out on the street, but so far that has not happened.

Another important part about staffing in the Police Services is that the officers that are there out on the street stay out on the street. I could remember years ago where an officer could arrest someone for impaired driving, take him into the police station, by the time his partner had finished going through the breathalyzer procedure, the report had been written, the documents had all been completed, and the cruiser car could get back out on the street. Now, it is not unusual to see officers tied up for an entire shift from one arrest.

What may be just as important as the 40 additional officers is, are there ways that the Justice department could facilitate officers staying on the street? Recent changes in federal law which have allowed officers in charge of divisions to put conditions on promise to appear may facilitate the release of many subjects that otherwise would have been taken before hearing officers, but there still will be a great number taken before--well, no longer hearing officers--magistrates.

Could part of that $2 million, if it is in the view of the Winnipeg Police Services or the committee that the minister has talked about working on this hearing officer process, be used for nonuniform or sworn-in police officers and possibly for civilian staff, for sheriff officers, for other resources that would keep police officers on the street where they do more good?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, to my understanding, the $2 million is not available to be used for civilian employees or for employees other than police officers. It is targeted to be for police officers to be available and on the street.

The member asked what other efficiencies can be brought into effect to assist officers, not have them spend so much time perhaps travelling from place to place and so on. He is aware that we are moving from the St. Boniface courthouse to 408 York in terms of the hearing officers--the magistrates now.

In my opening remarks I also spoke about a video link which will be established between 408 York and the Public Safety Building in an effort to avoid a set of travel time which would then take police not only from their division and then down to the Public Safety Building. This will then avoid the movement over to 408 York under certain circumstances.

When we get to the Courts Division, I will be more than happy to elaborate on that. I do not have the exact date available at the moment.

Mr. Kowalski: This question might be better asked in Court Services also. If so, please direct me.

I understand that one of the problems with video bail hearings has been the legal acceptance of a signature at the two different locations that has been signed at the same time and being the same signature. Has that matter been dealt with in facilitating this video link between 408 York and the Public Safety Building?

* (1550)

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that there has not been a problem with the bail video link. An issuance in connection with a search warrant, yes, there have been some questions, but the bail video link has not been a difficulty.

Mr. Kowalski: This may be dealt with better in Corrections, but I am also told that there are problems with the Remand Centre closing down for admissions at certain periods of time for lunch breaks, during shift changes and that, tying up police officers. I am sure that members of the public would prefer that police officers got back on the street if they could be turned over quickly and expediently to whether it be sheriff officers or staff at the Remand Centre. Right now, I understood that there are delays because of the Remand Centre being shut down during certain periods of times for admissions.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would not want to leave that on the record without some answer. So I will say, at this point, I am not aware of that difficulty. However, it would be best examined again under Corrections, and if the member would like to raise it on the Corrections line when Corrections Division is here, I would be happy to talk about it then.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I have just a few questions, more so out of curiosity. I am trying to get a bit of an understanding, I guess more so of protocol, that sort of thing. The relationship between the chief of police, if you will, and the minister versus, let us say, the chief of police and City Hall, how is that worked through? If the minister could just somewhat elaborate on that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, between the chief of the Winnipeg Police Services and City Hall, City Hall is the employer, but between the chief of the Winnipeg Police Services and myself as minister, the chief is independent. The chief and the police in general often work very closely--the reality is they work very closely with the Department of Justice, and guidance and advice are sought and given, but there is an independence.

Now with the RCMP, the relationship is different because we have a contract relationship with that policing service, so there is a difference in the relationship between the RCMP and the Minister of Justice and the relationship of the chief of the Winnipeg Police Services and the Minister of Justice.

Mr. Lamoureux: There are contract arrangements with the RCMP, and that thereby gives some sort of influence in terms of what things they would do if it is deemed that it is necessary or that employer-employee relationship is established.

With the Department of Urban Affairs, there are block grants that are given to the City of Winnipeg. Is there a certain percentage of that that would be designated to go towards the City of Winnipeg police force?

What I am curious in knowing is if the minister wants to be able to meet with the chief of police, no doubt there might be some moral obligation because she is the Minister of Justice, but could in fact the chief of police say, no, I am too busy today or the mayor has summoned me for two o'clock? She is the one that signs my cheque, that type of thing. I am just trying to get just a better understanding of just how that works actually.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, in terms of the RCMP, the relationship is, as I said, a contractual one, but they are still employees of the federal government. In that contractual relationship, it does allow me as Minister of Justice to provide direction in general terms and to provide a statement of priorities, objectives and goals to the RCMP. I do not have the same relationship with the City of Winnipeg Police Services.

I want to be careful not to speak about another department. Urban Affairs comes into Estimates after Justice, so I think they can answer probably better for how their funds are allocated. I believe I am correct in that they have a general block grant. They may also have some targeted grants. I think policing comes from the general grants, but I have to say that I am not sure. So it really would be unfair of me to put that on the record and assume that I was correct. I really should leave that to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer)

In terms of asking the chief of police, City of Winnipeg, to attend meetings, yes, I often extend invitations to him, have invited him to attend certain announcements which would be of interest, and he does not always attend. He is not always able to. Often he will send a designate or another representative of the Winnipeg Police Services. I think back when we had the Street Peace announcement and a designate attended. I think of the No Need to Argue announcement, and the chief attended because there was a direct interest. The Winnipeg Police Services in No Need to Argue was directly supporting the program with their officers. In Street Peace, they were going to run the phone line from their youth unit. So, when the invitation was extended to include them, they decided to attend, the chief not always able to attend.

In terms of meeting in my office, it is, again, we will ask the chief to come or the chief can write me a letter and say he wants to have a meeting or the chief can phone and say it would be important for him to have a meeting. It is a two-way relationship there where the reality is that the police do need lawyers, particularly in the area of Charter issues, and so the true working relationship is generally a fairly close one. But there is not with the City of Winnipeg police the same contractual arrangement as there is with the RCMP. The City of Winnipeg police are employees of the City of Winnipeg.

* (1600)

Mr. Lamoureux: One of the reasons why I asked that is government comes up with what I believe is a good idea in terms of trying to get more community police officers into the different communities, and with City Hall every year it seems that they go through a budgetary process in which we are going to have to lay off Fire Department employees, police employees and so forth.

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

It just seems that, when I heard about the announcement of the 40 new police officers, what would prevent the City of Winnipeg saying, well, gee, now that we have got an additional commitment of 40 new police officers from the province, we can actually cut back on recruiting? Is there some sort of the check that is put into place to prevent that sort of thing happening?

What I see, and I know the minister and the New Democratic critic got into an exchange in terms of an idea, and whoever's idea it was actually, it was a good idea. I would not want to see this good idea being watered down if the City of Winnipeg ultimately decides, well, we can save money here now, roughly about $2 million, because the province is kicking in $2 million.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, that is a good point and there is certainly a check that we put on that. We have asked for the complement of the City of Winnipeg police to be increased by 40 so that the complement which they are currently at simply cannot be reduced by the City of Winnipeg and then we would fill in that 40. We have asked, in fact, for the complement now to reflect the additional 40 officers. In my meetings with the chief around this issue, I have said that we will be looking for the full complement and 40 to make sure that this effort and these extra dollars are not a way for the city to find their way out of certain obligations. This is an additional grant which is given to the City of Winnipeg, and it has increased the complement. The chief has agreed and understood, as has, I understand, his employer.

Mr. Lamoureux: Has the minister ever given any consideration about, or some form of an invitation--I do not even know if it is something that is possible or feasible, and that is why maybe she has and then she has ruled it out, I do not know--with respect to inviting the chief of police to be able to participate in some capacity, obviously not at these Estimates but in future Estimates? Does she see that there is any real role for something of that nature, or would it be too precedent setting that it would not be worthwhile in getting involved in?

I would think that there might be some benefits; for example, crime, as all parties know, is a major issue. People want to talk about it. I know I could probably ask endless questions in any given day regarding the issue of crime. Is this something in which it is at all feasible, or is just not ever going to happen really? [interjection] You would not see it?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand the reason the member is asking in that I am sure there are some very interesting questions that would be interesting to talk about with the chief. It is really my view that it would not be appropriate to bring the chief into the Legislature to the Estimates of the budget of this government. Each elected level has their own mechanism for dealing with the accountability and the issues. Having said that, Estimates is probably not the place to bring the chief in.

However, as I said to the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), where there are issues or concerns or questions which members want to put forward, I am more than happy to raise them for discussion with the chief because we are elected members here, and there are issues which I am sure he would want to know about too when they are raised. I know he makes an effort to do that. That would be one way that we might be able to get his input, is to have questions raised. I am more than happy to bring the information back.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I know that I would find it extremely informative to listen to some sort of a discussion on the whole concept of community policing. When we talk about community policing, are we talking about the smaller, the broader-size communities?

I recall, I do not know, I guess it would be about two years ago, where they were--I do not recall the report, but there were stories making reference to the super regional police offices. I believe one was possibly being hinted somewhere around Logan or McPhillips, for example. Then there is the more traditional type of community police office, whether it is the one in The Maples or the one that used to be on Selkirk and in other areas of the city. Ultimately what I would argue for would be the more smaller communities, but even that would be open to some form of discussion.

For example, I serve an area--we all serve areas of 7,500 homes. Within my 7,500 homes, if you will, approximately 7,500, there are a couple of industrial parks and so forth. Does it make sense, is it feasible, to have two or three community offices based in an area of that size, or are we talking about having community-based policing one office in every 14,000, or are we looking at what type of demographics to determine the number of community police offices?

I guess those sorts of discussions--because we have entered at least in part into that fray when we say, look, we want you to top off; we would like to see 40 more police officers. If I just look at the number of 40 additional community police officers, we do not know if that is two in one office, meaning 20 offices, we do not know if that is one constable going in one office into the communities. I could ultimately argue, look, it would be wonderful to have one in Meadows West, in Garden Grove, Andrew Mynarski or the Mynarski area, the Shaughnessy Park area, Tyndall Park area, all of which make up the riding which I represent.

I do not necessarily have the type of information that might be beneficial in making or advocating what would be the ideal size. Suffice it to say, I do believe an area that comprises of 7,500 homes, if you like, could quite easily justify having some form of a community police office and would advocate that. At least in part, this is what I believe the minister--because we do currently have community police offices, and there is a fairly substantial commitment to community policing from this government.

My attempt is to try to get a bit better of an understanding in terms of where the government believes community police offices and the number of community police offices--and when I say a number, I am not looking for the minister to say, geez, I want 30 new community police offices. I believe--or the government says, well, look, here is a community; maybe it is comprised of this in terms of its components, and that is where we believe a community police office should be going type thing, to try to give that more direction.

* (1610)

Then I am better able to talk to individuals, whether it is Mike O'Shaughnessy, John Prystanski, Amaro Silva or Harry Lazarenko--I believe I have covered the north-end, inner-city councillors--in terms of saying, hey, here is what the province feels the general direction that we should be taking is; here are the arguments that are being presented and justified. Then I can hear what their counterarguments are.

I do believe very firmly in community police offices. I would sincerely like to be able to facilitate a community office in my area. I have seen many of the benefits of the community office being located in The Maples. Whomever gets the credit for establishing it there, I applaud their efforts.

I do believe that the provincial government and this minister can play a leading role in ensuring that there is a community-based policing throughout, in particular, the city of Winnipeg. If she is successful in getting this across, she will assume the credit for it. I think there are a lot of individuals that would like to be able to participate in the idea. I would indicate that I am one of those individuals that would like very much so to be involved in this issue because, much like health care and education, I believe crime is a very high area of interest within my area. I know that the constituents that I represent would like to see me more involved in getting something into the community.

I hear the government is serious about trying to bring community police offices and anything that is possible in terms of expediting or assisting the minister because, as the minister herself makes reference, she is not necessarily the employer. There are members of council, no doubt, in whom she would get along quite well and being very successful in expressing her opinions. There might be some councillors whom I might be able to have some influence with and likewise within the New Democratic caucus. If we do carry through on this good idea--because all political parties have acknowledged the benefits of this--I think that the minister will be successful in implementing what was a campaign promise. I think that would be most beneficial for all the citizens that we serve.

So I appreciate her concerns with respect to having the chief of the police come before the Estimates, but maybe there is something that is more informal in nature in which we can gain additional information, especially if the minister is receiving opposition. If the minister is receiving opposition to the implementation of community-based policing, I am definitely interested in knowing that and what opposition she is receiving so I can then carry my arguments and articulate on what my constituents feel are very important to those people that are creating the opposition. Until valid arguments are given to me that are contrary to my beliefs of the importance of the community-based policing, I will advocate very strongly that the police department and City Hall--and maybe in Urban Affairs, if I get the opportunity, I will ask that question--we use whatever mechanisms we can to get the police back into the community.

Mrs. Vodrey: The member has provided some very interesting ideas to think about and has certainly expressed his view and support for a type of policing that, he is right, seems to not have 100 percent acceptance in all quarters. I appreciate hearing his view and his support on that.

I have some caution, however, that we cannot reach into city council and try to control and direct them. That is a point that I have been making over the course of the afternoon. There may be ways in which he has relationships with councillors that he can make his individual point of view known to them on behalf of his community, as a member of the community, which I think is very helpful, but I think we as a province would not have the ability to attempt to control those councillors at the city level.

He has spoken a lot about community policing. I think he knows this, that the ideas of community policing vary. They vary depending upon which police service we are talking about, what the geographical area is, where in fact it is being put into place. It has to be responsive to the community. What community policing looks like in one area and what it means to one individual may have really an entirely different meaning to another individual.

But I am told and remember that the commissioner of the RCMP in an annual report wrote about some ideas about community policing, and since the member is interested, I will be happy to forward him that report. Those ideas and comments by the commissioner of the RCMP, really the most senior police officer that I deal with, you know, federally, the commissioner, I think it might offer some additional information and some interesting points of view that he may find, in his general discussions, would be helpful. I will undertake to send him a copy of that annual report. Hopefully, he will find it interesting.

Also, there have been, over the years, some grants to Citizens for Crime Awareness in Winnipeg. Those grants, which have taken place over a number of years I gather, periodically, have been given for expansion into all policing districts. It is a broad-based community organization that administers programs such as Neighbourhood Watch from the City of Winnipeg police. I know the member is aware of it, and other members of his caucus are aware of that, and so I just mention it as another opportunity for the community to become involved and perhaps have some influence.

* (1620)

Mr. Mackintosh: I have been listening to the remarks of the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and I commend him for his embracing the concept of community-based policing, particularly for Winnipeg. In my constituency, for example, we suffer from a relatively high crime rate. Yet, we do not have community-based policing in the immediate area and we rely on community-based offices some distance from our neighbourhoods.

I took particular interest in the concept of community-based policing and then circulated a petition in the area, which was heartily endorsed, and that petition was presented to the City of Winnipeg and to the chief of police. I hope that will go into the decision making of the Winnipeg Police Services as it moves towards community-based policing.

I want to caution the member for Inkster that when he is remarking on the position of this government, despite the objectives that are listed in the Supplementary Estimates to the effect that the department is dedicated to increased emphasis on community-based policing through proactive efforts and, as well, has as an Expected Result to enhance community-based policing programs, we have yet to identify an initiative by the government which promotes community-based as opposed to traditional policing.

The member for Inkster said that well, if there was any opposition to the minister's work on community-based policing, we would be pleased to help. There was no promise by this minister for community-based policing. There was no conditional grant given to the City of Winnipeg requiring that before the money be accepted, there be community-based officers rather than traditional officers. So I want to raise that with the member for Inkster.

Our concern has been the lack of dedication by this government and this minister in particular, through whether financial incentives or otherwise, to ensure community-based policing throughout the province.

I also have a concern that the monies being advanced to the city of Winnipeg may, and I am hopeful, be used at least in part for community-based policing initiatives because I know the City of Winnipeg and chief of police right now are in the process of developing a community-based policing plan for the city. That, I think, is largely due to the efforts of the particular chief of police in the city, by the way, a chief of police that I have the highest regard for, who has done wonderful things for the city in very difficult times.

It is not enough to simply rely on the intentions or the plans of a particular chief of police at one moment in time. The chief of police has indicated that he will not be in that office for very much longer, and I am concerned that the monies that are going to the City of Winnipeg not be used for traditional policing whatsoever, so I leave those comments on the record. I hope the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) will review those comments.

Mrs. Vodrey: One difficulty, I think, the member for St. Johns has is in understanding that I am the Minister of Justice for the Province of Manitoba, and the initiatives which he sees identified within my Estimates deal with initiatives across this province. The member has really confined his comments only to the City of Winnipeg and has somehow used that as his measure, so I would like to just take a few moments, Mr. Chair, to remind him that as the provincial Minister of Justice, I have initiatives across this province.

I know he comes from the city, so it may be easy for him or for his party to not be so aware of what is happening in other parts of Manitoba. I can tell him that in communities policed by the RCMP, there are in excess of 100 community consultative groups; those include groups of many different people, seniors, youth, aboriginal groups, visible minorities. These community consultative groups have the opportunity to talk about the kind of policing that they would like, what kind of participation they would like, and I know we talked about these in Estimates last year as well.

I can tell the member that Justice officials have attended meetings with community officials during the year to help them regarding their decisions of the kinds of policing service that they desire, by way of example, Lynn Lake. Justice officials went to this community to assist the community in resolving their policing concerns and also to Ste. Anne, where we also made the same effort to assist the officials in resolving police concerns.

Now the member very frequently speaks about our aboriginal policies as well. So I would like to remind him that policies relating to community-based policing, a police service in which the community has had an influence in determining the type of police service that they want extends also to our aboriginal communities. Now this has been absent in his remarks so far, so I am glad to put it on the table now and to talk with him just a little bit about our approach to aboriginal policing. Mr. Chair, we are going to--

Point of Order

Mr. Mackintosh: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we completed ministerial opening statements a long time ago. The minister is off on her own. She is talking about rural and northern and aboriginal policing, which are items that I intend to get to, but for her just to go off and go on through the Estimates like she is wandering down a path, I do not think is the appropriate way to go through the Estimates. We like to go topic by topic, and it usually is in answer to questions posed by the opposition.

So I would ask the Chair if he would ask the minister how long she intends to go on this, or is she prepared to answer questions from the opposition instead?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The rules and procedures of the Chamber indicate that speeches in Committee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. I believe the honourable Minister of Justice was responsive to a question from the honourable member for St. Johns with regard to what initiatives were being introduced by the government on community justice, community policing, and I believe that all members are aware of the issue. I do not believe there is any point of order here, and I would invite the Madam Minister of Justice to continue.

* * *

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the member has made a point about wanting to know about community involvement in policing and community-based policing. His discussion has focused only on the city of Winnipeg, and then he made the broad statement that there are no initiatives by this government. So my answer is to respond to him to remind him that my initiatives deal with not only the city of Winnipeg, where I believe we are working very hard with the City of Winnipeg with additional police officers, but, in addition to that, I have responsibility for the province.

So I have been discussing with him what is happening in rural and northern Manitoba. I know he has members from in and around that area. I thought it would be helpful to him because he has expressed interest in aboriginal issues and because aboriginal policing has been a major initiative of this government to move into the First Nations policing policy and because the movement of the First Nations policing policy requires community consultation. That is the first step. So that is why it is extremely relevant, when he speaks about community involvement, that we in fact do remind him about our efforts in the area of aboriginal policing. Where I left off, Mr. Chair, was to say that we are going to 62 aboriginal communities across this province in order to develop with those communities a policing service that is responsive to each community's needs.

In my earlier comments to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), I was saying to him that community-based policing, community policing, is going to look different depending upon what community you live in. It is not just like a cookie-cutter approach where it will look the same everywhere. It looks different because the communities had the opportunity to determine what their police service should look like.

That is why I think it is important to talk about the fact that we also have extended this whole issue of community policing and community influence in policing into the aboriginal community, as well.

I hope that answers his question regarding initiatives across this province.

* (1630)

Mr. Mackintosh: The government has dedicated additional monies for the City of Winnipeg police and, as well, for the RCMP. I am wondering if there have been any discussions with or requests from the municipal police forces in Manitoba as to their needs and whether they have resource difficulties, as well.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, though we have not at the moment had any specific approaches from other municipal police services, I can tell him that during the course of the election, there was a commitment to do an annual review of police staffing in rural Manitoba and to review the staffing levels on an annual basis with the RCMP, the City of Brandon and rural municipalities with separate police forces.

Mr. Mackintosh: I do know that the City of Brandon has some concerns about the staffing levels in that police department. I know Chief Scott has passed onto me concerns about the need for more community-based policing in that community, but that was contingent on some financial assistance, so I urge the minister to outreach with the other municipal forces to ensure that the needs of those communities are being met.

I wonder if the minister would explain to the committee the communication centre grant, I believe it was, that was announced a number of months ago for the RCMP and if she could just explain what difference in service results from the funding.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the commitment that this government made to the RCMP was a commitment for the telecommunications side, a commitment of $3.5 million. That $3.5 million will be provided over a three-year period for the development of the new telecommunications centre.

With the commitment of the provincial government, the RCMP is now able to go to the federal government, and the federal government, with the confirmation of the provincial government, will be approving, we hope and believe, their portion very quickly and very soon, but it was important that the province make a commitment also.

The improvements will be a 24-hour response to calls from a single dispatch centre. Also, I think the biggest area is that this was seen to be a very important initiative by the RCMP, particularly for the health and safety of officers. They have qualified it or have put it together under that category of issues that they wanted to have addressed by the province.

We accepted that and understood it, and so we believe that it will provide a benefit for the RCMP officers.

Mr. Mackintosh: So I take it then that the increase in the Provincial Policing line of approximately $1.5 million is dedicated to the telecommunications centre. Does it include, as well, some dedication to additional officers?

* (1640)

Mrs. Vodrey: The amount of money is accounted for by the increase in 16 positions this year, that is $887,600. Also, $287,300, an increase for contractual commitments under the 20-year policing agreement and the contractual increases for Manitoba's share of recruitment costs, pension cost increases, unemployment insurance cost increases, increased usage of guards and matrons and increased accommodation costs. The $147,000 increase is for the replacement of 38 calibre revolvers and a provision was made for the replacement of 38 calibre revolvers, and it is to be phased in over a three-year period.

What is not reflected here is the dollars flowing to the telecommunications centre because it is not expected that the dollars will flow in this fiscal year, though the commitment has been made and the dollars will flow over the three-year period.

Mr. Mackintosh: When you look at the allocations here, we note $50.4 million for provincial policing, which would be RCMP, I take it. Does that include municipal policing as well on that budget line?

Mrs. Vodrey: No, it does not.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering if the minister could identify what line municipal police funding is on.

Mrs. Vodrey: I think if I have understood the member's question accurately, he is asking where would the budget for the policing of municipal police services be reflected in my budget.

It would not be reflected there. It would be reflected in the budget of the municipalities which are the employers. There are municipalities that have agreements directly with the federal government, as well, and those would be reflected in their budgets. Hopefully, I have answered the member's question for that one.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, this is instructive for me. So the minister is saying that there is no direct funding of municipal policing by the provincial government.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, to my knowledge and understanding, the municipal police services the member is speaking about are funded through the municipal tax share grant which flows from Rural Development.

Mr. Mackintosh: When you look at the budget for provincial policing overall, there is roughly a fifty-to-one ratio of RCMP to First Nations policing funding, which I think highlights the need for greater support for aboriginal community policing in Manitoba.

I am wondering if the minister can advise, first of all, what kind of agreement is now in place between the government and DOTC for policing services in those DOTC communities.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to correct the first part of the member's comments and then ask him if he would repeat the question about the DOPS.

He has alluded to what appears to be in the budget line a fifty-to-one ratio of funding RCMP to First Nations, and what I just want to tell him is included in Provincial Policing, that RCMP line, there is policing of aboriginal communities, so that all policing of aboriginal communities is not contained in that $1-million line.

However, as I have been commenting on in earlier answers, we are visiting 62 aboriginal communities in an effort to change that, to change that indirect to a much more direct policing, but that requires us to follow the terms of the First Nations policing policy through consultation, the development of the kinds of police service that that particular community wants. So we are moving in that direction, but the numbers, I think, cannot be used to say 50 million RCMP and only one million or 1.5 First Nations.

He had a specific question about the DOPS, and I am sorry, I was not able to hear it.

* (1650)

Mr. Mackintosh: The ratio was not to compare aboriginal to nonaboriginal policing. I was comparing RCMP policing to aboriginal or First Nations policing. In other words, RCMP is at 50 and First Nations is at one. I recognize that the RCMP is policing aboriginal communities.

Regarding the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council and the police service there, my question was, what agreement is now in place between the government of Manitoba and the DOTC for policing services?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we have at the moment a long-term agreement. It is a five-year agreement for policing the six DOTC communities under the First Nations policing policy.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister talks about consultations taking place with 62 First Nations communities. Is the government going to each community individually, or are negotiations taking place under the umbrella of the AMC?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chairman, we are going to each community. The process involves going to each community, some of them a number of times.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I am wondering what the government is bringing with it as it goes to those communities? What is the formula for funding, for example, that the government is proposing to each community? Is it consistent by community?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, under the terms of the First Nations policing policy, the funding formula is set. The funding formula is 52 percent payable by the federal government; 48 percent payable by the provincial government.

Mr. Mackintosh: So I take it then that the consultations and negotiations are all within the framework of that First Nations policing arrangement that the Solicitor General of Canada is a signatory to?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, they are being negotiated under the framework agreement set out, and the Solicitor General of Canada is a signatory to the agreement.

However, I am told that where communities want to make additions, or want to provide resources for some special accommodations, that is certainly looked at, but it is the framework of the First Nations policing policy that is looked at all across the province.

Mr. Mackintosh: How many First Nations communities currently now have their own policing service other than the DOTC communities? Perhaps if the minister could list those.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the DOTC communities are the only ones that have their police force, the DOPS police force. There is not another aboriginal stand-alone police force across the province.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister envision separate police forces in each aboriginal community if that is what the communities wish, or is the government suggesting, because I accept that the First Nations will have to make that decision, but suggesting that they band together and have, for example, regional or tribal council police forces?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the process that we have been following is not to impose any particular model on any of the communities. Some of the communities have chosen to meet as tribal councils, others as individual bands. We have been open in our discussion to the communities looking at what their particular needs are and how they would like to accomplish them.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee if there are any aboriginal or First Nations communities which have start-up dates in place now for self-policing or community policing?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I cannot provide the member with a start-up date for the further police agreements. I just can tell him that there are a number of communities who have completed the consultation process and are in the negotiation process now.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has the government reached out and advised all of the First Nations communities of this opportunity? In other words, is it being proactive in ensuring that the band councils or the tribal councils are aware of the government's position within the framework agreement?

Mrs. Vodrey: We are certainly satisfied that all the communities know. I can tell you, in terms of being proactive, I got off the plane in February, 1994 on I think it was a Friday morning, it could have been a Thursday. By Sunday evening we had our representatives in the air flying to the communities across this province to start the process of consultation and negotiations.

We moved very quickly when we received the commitment from the federal government that they were wanting to proceed under this particular framework, and I indicated on behalf of our province that we were wanting to proceed under this framework. As soon as I got that assurance, which was given to me on a trip to Ottawa, we came home and we were immediately started in the process.

* (1700)

I think the member understands how it has to go. There has to be a process, first of all, with community consultations. Some communities have taken longer than others. Some have wanted to have a longer process. They have wanted to speak about whether or not they want a stand-alone police service. Some communities may not want the stand-alone police service. They may want the RCMP to continue or their projections may be that they want the RCMP to continue for a certain number of years, and then eventually phase in their own police officers.

Others can decide on a mixed kind of a police service, so we have tried very hard to look with communities at what they want now but understand too there are projections down the road. Here is where they are now, and they may wish to develop into another kind of police service, and we have to make sure everyone knows exactly where they are going in the process.

Mr. Mackintosh: I find it amusing for the minister now to be making it appear that it was the federal government that was responsible for the late signing on of Manitoba to the framework agreement when I think Manitoba was either the second last or the last province to sign on.

My next question follows from one of the recommendations in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report which expressed concerns about a lack of or a need for supports for the DOTC in particular with regard to training. I am wondering if the government is making any commitment to the First Nations communities to assist in training constables and assist in the setting up of the administration of policing.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I think it is important to say first of all there was a requirement on behalf of this government to see that the federal government did intend to move ahead with the First Nations policing policy. At that time the new federal government had been in office, I believe it was under six months if it was mid-February and they were elected at the end of October.

We needed to have an indication, a direct indication from them and from the Solicitor General now of the federal government that he intended to proceed, and he intended to proceed under these funding arrangements or were they to be changed under these kinds of requirements or were they to be changed. Manitoba decided that it was important that I as minister go and meet with that federal minister and get those assurances so that Manitoba and the people of Manitoba understood what it was that we were agreeing to. I made the announcement as soon as I returned home.

I also would like to clarify--I believe the member has left on the record somehow Manitoba was the last one to sign on here. In fact, that is just not true, but I am assuming he was uninformed there.

He asked about the training and how training is delivered. Training is delivered in several ways. First of all, there is actual on-site training where officers--and this is what is happening in the DOPS by the way--actually work directly with RCMP officers. Part of the training is just in the form of actual work within the community and being able to work alongside of a trained officer. There is also training which occurs through D Division Headquarters, and then there is also the opportunity for members to attend at Depot in Regina.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am not sure if I missed it, but is there any financial commitment that is specified to the First Nations communities to assist in the training?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the amount of dollars that has been allocated for training, refreshing and upgrading was $4,000 in the interim agreement, $24,000 for a full year. Now, of that amount, which is through the agreement, the province is responsible for 48 percent, the federal government is responsible for 52 percent.

Mr. Mackintosh: An issue that we canvassed in the last go-round in Estimates based on another AJI recommendation was the establishment of a special investigations unit when there are serious complaints alleged against a police department. This recommendation was proposed to ensure that police departments do not investigate themselves for such serious allegations.

The lack of the government moving on this initiative was denounced by the judge in the LERA hearing emanating from Brandon this last year. I know the minister reported last Estimates go-around that she was expecting a report by the end of last summer from within her department. I am wondering what the status of that issue is now.

* (1710)

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as the member knows, at the moment what we have available to us is LERA. I wonder if the member could just clarify how he understood or what he understood about a report last year, if he could give me a little bit more detail of his understanding of what that report was and covered.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I hope there is such a report. It was on page 2836 June 1, 1994, where the minister said that at the moment, the deputy minister has instructed the ADM of Prosecutions to look at how we might manage this in the future. He has asked for a full report and in that report, it would include the role of the investigators, who provides the advice to the investigators, the discharge of the prosecution, the assessment of appeals. When this report is received, it could lead to a special unit, or it could lead to prosecutors from other provinces or from other parts of our province. So at the moment, we are actively looking at the issue, and I expect that I will be able to see that report by the end of the summer.

Mrs. Vodrey: I thank the member for clarifying, because to our understanding, what that report was talking about did not have anything to do with the policing but rather how best to lay criminal charges against police when there were police involved in an incident. It did not have to do with the discipline process.

Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, well, I am sorry, I was not clear on that. The special investigations unit recommendation was to ensure that any serious allegation on the part of the police be investigated by some body other than the police organization which is the subject of the complaint, the investigation of which may or may not lead to criminal charges.

So I am wondering what the status of the internal report is and if we can expect a special investigations unit regime, if you call it that, to be established in the province.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I can tell the member that the deputy attorney general tells me he has not yet received a full report. He has received some elements of a report. It is not considered complete. The issues have, however, in the preliminary report, been a reporting of discussions. There have been discussions with chiefs of police, with counterparts across the country. It is a complex matter, a sensitive matter, one that we really have to think carefully about and our thinking is not fully complete at this time.

However, until we have completed our thinking and until we believe that we have a plan which may add to the system that we have now, we have urged police, who have their own members under investigation, to have another police service do that investigation, and that is generally the practice to my knowledge.

Mr. Mackintosh: The last couple of weeks we heard concerns expressed by representatives of police departments that some individuals were using the 911 number for nonemergency matters. I am wondering if the minister has considered this complaint and considered whether some public information program is warranted?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we have not yet done any specific thinking about it, partly because it involves a number of ministries. It is operated by civilians. The minister of telecommunications is involved, and obviously the Department of Justice would be aware then when police are responding.

The member raises a good point about an information campaign perhaps, or a way to make sure that people understand the importance of using 911 for genuine emergencies. I have, I guess, read the same articles that he has, as well, and had some of the same concerns. It seems, if that reporting is accurate, that people have used the 911 for other than emergency reasons, so I thank him for the, and I am certainly prepared to look at it and think about it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Shall the item pass? The item under consideration is item 2.(c) Provincial Policing $52,299,200. The item is passed accordingly.

The next item is item 2.(d) Law Enforcement Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee what the one SY is under Managerial? Who is that or what is the position description title?

* (1720)

Mrs. Vodrey: That one SY is the Director of Enforcement Services, Mr. Bob Chamberlain who is at the table.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister tell the committee what the three SYs under Professional/Technical are?

Mrs. Vodrey: The three Professional/Technical individuals are the police support service officer, the commissioner of LERA and the chief firearms officer.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Tyrrell, I understand, was involved in this Crime Prevention Council and youth crime, whatever. I am wondering if there is a mandate now available for that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as the member mentioned, Mr. Gill Tyrrell has accepted the position as a volunteer to chair the provincial council on crime. We began with an idea of how we saw that provincial council on crime working. However, as I said in earlier Estimates, he made visits to youth justice committees and communities across this province and came back with their views of how the provincial council on crime may work the best.

We are in the process of finalizing both the mandate and also individuals who may now sit on that provincial council. As I said earlier, we wanted to make sure that the council would in fact be composed of the kinds of individuals who had the expertise that the community wanted.

Just to add a little bit, the chairperson met with 39 youth justice communities throughout Manitoba--justice communities, I beg your pardon--to identify the mandate and also to begin to identify candidates to sit on the council.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee whether there is now a fee for enrolling in the training program for special constables?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the training programs for special constables are, by and large, run by the employing organization. It might be an organization such as Eaton's or The Bay, so they are responsible for their own training program for special constables. They would determine if there is a fee or not.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the department developing a training program for special constables internally?

Mrs. Vodrey: No, we are not at this time. Special constables operate obviously in an environment where their direct employer will determine what their specific needs are in their area. We have not developed a specific training program and are not at the moment.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the government have plans to develop a training program for special constables?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, not at the moment. I am wondering if the member has a particular issue he would like to raise with me around that, but no, not at the moment.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has the government budgeted within this section any monies to develop or implement a training program for special constables?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I see that the member is referring to an area in the Expected Results. I would just like to explain how that works, in that, the Winnipeg Police Services will assist employers who wish to employ special constables in the development of a program. We certainly are also prepared to assist in the development, either assist the Winnipeg Police Services or the employer. I remember last year that we spent some time speaking about how this worked and also how we could be of help.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister explain whether there is a crime prevention fund within the government under this section?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the Crime Prevention Fund and grants from that fund are listed under the appropriation 2.(d).

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the Crime Prevention Fund comprised of $60,000 which is listed under Crime Prevention Grants?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Mackintosh: I take it that the Crime Prevention Fund is made up of general revenues.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, this allocation comes from general revenues.

* (1730)

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have a list of the grants that were allocated in '94-95 under this appropriation?

Mrs. Vodrey: The awards for '94-95 were Crime Prevention Awards, Street Peace, the Option Start program of the Fort Garry School Division, the Combat Auto Theft Program, a program called Big Mouth, a drug awareness program, Glenboro Citizens on Patrol, the Baldur Crime Watch program and The Pas Citizens on Patrol.

Mr. Mackintosh: I wonder if the minister could table that list with the corresponding grants for each project.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I will be pleased to prepare that for the member. I will have to give it to him tomorrow. The information that I am referring to is on a page with other details.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister describe what the Big Mouth project is? That sounds interesting.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, this crime prevention program called Big Mouth is one which happens at the request of a community. It is where the community requests, in consultation with the police service, the RCMP police, that they go online via computer. It is an auto-dial system. It allows police then to advise residents of alert. For example, if there is a missing child in a particular area, it allows people on the system to virtually auto-dial and have that alert sent out simultaneously, so it is a method of providing information.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have a contact person or a description of this program? I am sure she does if there has been a grant advanced because it sounds very interesting. I have never heard of this before.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the best contact would be the RCMP informetrics officer. We understand that the individual, whom I was prepared to give the name, has just changed to another position so the position is really the way, I think, to make contact.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the government have any criteria as to what kinds of projects are funded under this appropriation?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, we do have some criteria. I am prepared to read it into the record. This fund itself, however, is--the community receives notification of it through chiefs of police, through police services. We have tried to make sure that the community is aware of the fact that this fund is available.

The criteria which are used as a guideline in evaluating proposals are, first of all, the proponent of the grant should not be a government department or agency or a major police force within the province, where we are simply substituting crime prevention funds for funds that really should be appropriately coming from within their existing budgets.

The projects should be as broad based as possible and should have a great deal of grassroots community involvement.

The proposal should address a community need. That is a need, for instance, if there have been a number of break-ins in a particular neighbourhood and the funds are required to establish a program to deal with that.

The grant is generally a one-time grant. The crime prevention fund does not provide core funding and the proposal does not request funds that are normally provided from an established program elsewhere in government. If funds were coming from a program elsewhere they cannot shift over to the crime prevention fund.

Really one of the most important criteria of all of the criteria I have spoken about is that the idea should come from the community and that is one very important way we can involve the community in the process.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is there any ongoing review of the Law Enforcement Review legislation or the procedures of LERA?

* (1740)

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mrs. Vodrey: There is not a formal review going on at this time, however, the deputy minister has asked---the report that I referred to earlier regarding strategies to prosecute police--that the role of LERA be considered in that strategy paper which we expect to have more holistically than we have now.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have any statistics regarding the growth of the number of security guards over the last, say, four years?

Mrs. Vodrey: I do not have it available now; however, we can look to provide that to the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: Other than the basic standards, if you could call it that, in The Private Investigators and Security Guards Act, has the government developed any standards for security guards and private investigators in the province or is it in the process of doing that?

Mrs. Vodrey: We are, I am informed, in the process of looking at whether there is a requirement to develop standards. Sorry, the member who asked the question and I had a very late evening last night as we were reviewing a bill. Anyway, we are in the process of looking to see whether there is a requirement for standards.

One of the areas that we are particularly interested in is in the area of equipment and also in the area of training.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee what the requirements are for security guards regarding carrying of any weapons?

Mrs. Vodrey: I would ask the honourable member if I could provide that information to him. There are a few errors that I just want to make sure. His term is weapons, and I just want to make sure in looking at the broad range that I can give him an accurate answer, so I will get back to him with the answer.

Mr. Mackintosh: Who is the contact person regarding the crime prevention grant program?

Mrs. Vodrey: The contact person would be Mr. Bob Chamberlain.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is Mr. Chamberlain also the recommended contact about any further questions regarding the security guards act and this application?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, Mr. Chamberlain would be happy to be that contact person.

Mr. Chairperson: 2.(d) Law Enforcement Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $553,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $183,900--pass; (3) Grants $60,000--pass.

(e) Victims Assistance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $505,300.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would just like to introduce Jocelyn Prohaska, the provincial co-ordinator of Victims Assistance, to the committee.

Mr. Mackintosh: In the Expected Results it states: "Implement the Rural Victims Assistance Program in three rural locations (Brandon, The Pas and Thompson)."

I am trying to understand what that program is as opposed to the Victims Assistance Program in the seven Manitoba communities.

* (1750)

Mrs. Vodrey: The Rural Victims Assistance Program is a specialized service. It assists women who have been victims of domestic abuse and also children who have been victims of abuse where charges have been laid. It is a specialized service.

The RCMP program is a much more general victim service, and they do work such as make sure they can tell people where their case is going through the process. They do not deal with women in the specific way, women who have been victims of domestic abuse or children who have been victims of child abuse.

Mr. Mackintosh: I take it this is different than the Women's Advocacy Program office extensions?

Mrs. Vodrey: The rural program is an expansion of the Women's Advocacy Program. That is an expansion into the rural area.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, now we are confusing it, I think. Until now, I had assumed that the Women's Advocacy Program offices at Brandon, The Pas and Thompson were called just that, and now I understand that in fact they are called the Rural Victims Assistance Program. Is that right?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the proper name for the program is the Women's Advocacy/Child Witness Support Program, but we refer to it as the rural program because the other name is such a long name.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have the travel budgets for the offices at The Pas and Thompson?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there is not a designated travel budget for each of those rural program offices because the individuals generally work within those cities, Brandon, Thompson and The Pas, and they do not have a designated travel budget for travelling out. The travel budget or the travel dollars were dollars used by the supervisor from the Women's Advocacy Program in Winnipeg to travel to those communities where the program has been expanded into and to be able to provide training and implementation assistance in those three expansion centres.

Mr. Mackintosh: I understand the Victims Assistance Program was at the very last moment continued by this government despite its protestations in Question Period and in the Estimates process last year. It is my understanding that the program funding has been extended for two years. Is that accurate?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, in order to be clear, I wonder if the member could just tell us which of those victims programs, since the name seems to have been used interchangeably, that he is referring to at the moment.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I am referring to the victims assistance program, the RCMP program, as she calls it, in the seven Manitoba communities of Portage, Virden, Dauphin, The Pas, Flin Flon, Thompson, Selkirk.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the official extension was for a period of one year. However, we understand that because some of the programs had surplus dollars, their actual funding from the first round really kept them going into '95 and then they had a year extension from that time.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the government now committed to the ongoing funding of these Victims Assistance units?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, what I said when I announced that there would be an extension of the funding for one year for these programs was to continue the programs while at the same time we were doing an ongoing study, a really comprehensive study, across the province of what was the required service for victims across the province.

When I have that information then government will consider what service really will be the most appropriate, because there had been a number of issues raised about how far reaching some of the service was, what exactly was the work that they could do and did do, and so what we are trying to do now is to look across the province and say what is required. So that is the stage we are at now.

Mr. Mackintosh: When does the government expect to be in a position to conclude what kind of Victims Assistance Programs should be available to Manitobans in the long run?

Mrs. Vodrey: We are expecting that our study will extend well into 1996. I cannot give the member an exact end point. I would also tell him that I am told now that the RCMP are also doing their own study, and they are also looking at how they might fund or what other funding sources would be available for their centres. They understand that we are doing a victim strategy, but they are also contributing in their own way and also separate from us as well, and so I will be very interested in hearing what they have to say based on their study.

I would say again to the member that it was certainly I think important that we have a look at what the needs of victims are across the province and exactly what service is being offered and by whom, because it becomes important that if someone is offering counselling, then they are in fact trained to counsel. If someone is offering information, that is a different story. Information can be offered by volunteers, but we have to make sure that in any of the services which are being offered, we have people in place who really are qualified to do the work.

I raised a number of issues last year in Estimates around this issue as well: What was the original purpose of this program, what in fact had it perhaps grown into, and what in fact was expected of it by the community. I think this is all part of what we have to look at in terms of our victim strategy, and that is what we intend to do and look forward to it being completed at some point in 1996. I am not able to give the termination date.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair and will return at 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday).