* (2000)

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Committee can come to order.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, I am wondering if the minister can indicate how much he would have at hand with respect to demographics of the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Is the staff outside? If the staff is outside, they can come in, by the way.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, as I was asking, I am interesting in knowing if the minister has some more recent information, as opposed to the 1991 Census, with respect to the population in Winnipeg.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): To the best of my knowledge it is approximately just over 600,000--612,000.

Mr. Lamoureux: I believe the last census put it at something like 638,000 or something of that nature. We do not have anything more precise than that right at hand?

Mr. Reimer: The last figures that I have before me were for 1993, and at that time there were 628,900 people.

Mr. Lamoureux: Does the department deal with projections for the city in terms of what they would anticipate population will be at over the next number of years?

Mr. Reimer: We are just in the process of getting those figures. Maybe we can hold off on that for a few moments while we find those figures and we can come back to that.

Mr. Lamoureux: Actually, there are a number of questions that I have in this area. One of the things that I am hoping to be able to get a better understanding of is the satellite communities and the type of growth that they have been experiencing compared, let us say, to the city of Winnipeg and what sort of projections the Department of Urban Affairs would have with respect to them.

I was actually at a public meeting that happened to be dealing with boundary redistribution of the school divisions and I heard this rather unique phrase. I do not want to take credit for the phrase. It was something to the effect of a "rurbanite" where we get a lot of individuals that used to live in the city of Winnipeg that moved out into the satellite communities to gain a bit of an experience of the rural community and yet still be able to commute back and forth in a rather reasonable amount of time to the inner city, if you like, or to the shopping centres and the many different venues that the city of Winnipeg has to offer. What I am hoping to be able to do is to get some numbers from the minister with respect to some of those satellite communities.

The population of Manitoba is somewhere in around 1.1 million people. I was under the impression that the city made up somewhere close to 65 percent of the population of the province. I would imagine then when those stats come out they are really talking about metropolitan Winnipeg, if you will, quite possibly. What I am interested in is trying to figure out what sort of numbers within the city of Winnipeg. I will take it 628,000, those would all be within, let us say, the city of Winnipeg property tax base. I am equally interested in those satellite communities, communities just outside the city of Winnipeg.

I do not know if maybe he has some sort of a map that includes those communities or what he would classify as a satellite community to the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Reimer: Just to further clarify for the member for Inkster, I do have some figures that are out of the Capital Region Strategy in which there is talk of population in the area of growth. What they are indicating here in this pamphlet is that Winnipeg's population is expected to increase by about 5 percent between 1991 and the year 2011. In the regional growth, which is just outside Winnipeg, they are looking at a population growth of about 1.5 percent per year.

We have to be a little cognizant and recognize that when we are talking about populations and we are talking about percentages of population, when we talk of 5 percent of a population base of over 600,000, we are talking fairly significant numbers. When we talk about 1.5 percent in the regions outside of Winnipeg, you can see that there is growth of people in both areas. It is one thing to compare a low figure of 5 percent in, say, 630,000 people and 1.5 percent when you are talking about some of the regions around Winnipeg where you may have upwards in some areas of 1,200 people and 4,000 people.

The statistics can be interpreted in various ways when you look at the percentage applied to them.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am somewhat surprised in terms of the 1.5 percent increase. I would have anticipated that it would have been considerably higher than that.

The minister makes reference--this is the Capital Region Strategy. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that. Could the minister provide me a copy of that particular document?

Mr. Reimer: We will make sure we get a copy to the member in the next day or two.

* (2010)

Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you. I would appreciate that.

I wanted to move on in terms of the rivers. I made reference in my brief opening remarks to the Assiniboine and the Red River. I meant to get some sort of indication in terms of what this government or the Department of Urban Affairs is looking at.

I know a number of years back the NDP administration had set up a fund, or they were hoping to create a fund, for riverbank improvement. I think it even targeted something like a hundred million dollars towards this potential fund, or at least it was a commitment from the government.

When I was with the Institute of Urban Studies, I had done a report on what I believe was called the Mewasin project out in Saskatoon. There they had a long-term plan for the Saskatchewan River, and it included things like walkways, other forms of entertainment, parks and so forth. I am wondering what sorts of long-term plans the department has with respect to our rivers, walkways, this sort of thing, cleaning up the river, if there are block monies that are being given to the city that are conditional to river improvement or bank improvement, that sort of thing.

Mr. Reimer: The member for Inkster is right in his assumption that one of the great attributes of Winnipeg is the fact that we do have the convergence of the Red and Assiniboine rivers which is of natural beauty in a sense of the character of this city of Winnipeg. This was recognized many years ago by previous administrations within the city and within the province of the quality and the esthetic contribution that this can make not only in this area but anywhere along the riverbanks here in Winnipeg.

This is one of the reasons, when The Forks was developed, that there was a very conscientious attitude and look toward the riverbanks as a place of leisure type of activity, the walkways themselves, the whole greening of the area, if you want to call it, and the emphasis on making it a very family-oriented and a community area of gathering which The Forks has been, and the fact that the riverbanks and the walkways along there add such significance to the lifestyles of Winnipeg for their recreation and for just pure enjoyment of what we have to offer.

Recognizing that, as the member for Inkster has seen from the south end of this building how we have tied into the riverbank along the Assiniboine River where you can walk now right from the Legislature quite easily right down to The Forks and back, and you can go even around the corner and eventually right to Juba Park and the Alexander Docks with the walkway.

Recognizing that in the Winnipeg Development Agreement, which I alluded to earlier, there has been provision put in there for the continual improvements and beautification of the walkways on the riverways, and the provincial government is committed to expenditures of approximately $2 million for this project for the beautification of the walk.

The member is aware that the Winnipeg Development Agreement is a tripartite agreement between the federal government, provincial government and the City of Winnipeg for $75 million over the next five years in which there is participation of $25 million per level of government in various areas of improvement for the city of Winnipeg, so it is quite a significant amount. It is recognizing that there is a quality of life that people expect and the whole presentation of the esthetic qualities of not only the riverbanks but of the walkways involved too.

Mr. Lamoureux: I think that quite often we underestimate the value of our rivers. I think that there was a fact sheet that I was provided, just to give you some sort of an idea of the appreciation, and it makes reference to The Forks site, if you will, in 1991 where it said virtually all adult Winnipeg residents, some 97 percent, had heard of The Forks, and almost 81 percent had visited the site in 1991 alone. I think that they are a phenomenal resource. It is the natural beauty of the rivers and the banks that tend to draw people to them, and I think what I would like to see is more of a long-term plan for the rivers.

I appreciate the efforts and work from all three different levels of government that have gone into the development of The Forks as we know it today and the extension of the walkways. I think it is equally important that government develop some sort of a long-term--in co-operation obviously with the city. In fact, many would argue and possibly quite correctly that the city should be playing the lead role, but the province does need to be at the table in the development of our riverbanks in particular. I am interested in knowing, within the Department of Urban Affairs, do they have any sort of a plan other than, let us say, The Forks to acquire or to ensure that there is more access to the public to the riverbanks?

I look in particular around the zoo, by Assiniboine Park, for example, where there are trails that go by there and the addition or extension of current trails that are there. Does the Department of Urban Affairs have these sorts of discussions with city officials, and if so, what sort of plans do they envision?

Mr. Reimer: The member is right in his analysis of the fact that the waterways here in Winnipeg are playing and will continue to play a very significant role in any type of development for the esthetic qualities and the appearance of the city, mainly because of the fact that we do have the Red and the Assiniboine rivers which come together, but we also have small little rivers, for example, the Seine River which actually runs through my constituency to an extent.

There has been quite a movement in the last four or five years which started with a study by the Save Our Seine group in which they wanted to look at the Seine River and see what type of help they could give in trying to clean the river up, try to recognize where the flow patterns are, where the problems are with the obstructions of the Seine River.

A small grant was obtained through the Department of Natural Resources for the initial study of it. What has happened with that small grant that was obtained through the department to the Save Our Seine group, it has grown into quite an organization of very conscientious and very concerned citizens in trying to promote the Seine River, trying to clean up the Seine River. I am not sure exactly how far it has been cleaned up, but I think it has been cleaned up right through from perimeter to perimeter regarding the amount of effort that has been put in there. That is a good example of people that are recognizing the qualities and the great beauty we have of the rivers that are running through Winnipeg.

* (2020)

The member mentions the Assiniboine River. It is another river that will demand more concentration because of the fact of the residential area that runs through it. I guess it is like anything, the more there is an awareness of the qualities there, the more attention that will be put through people's groups and interest groups and to a degree funding toward improvement on it.

These are very, very strong qualities of character for the city of Winnipeg. I think more and more people are recognizing the value of them and their beauty for the enjoyment of these wonderful summers we have here in Winnipeg, and the winters too, because in wintertime they are put into use particularly around The Forks.

I think the member has been down there during the wintertime. They have skating on the river, they have carnivals on the river, the Festival du Voyageur ties into The Forks, there are the celebrations that we have had down there with New Year's Eve. It has become quite a centre of exactly what it is meant for, a gathering of people. The Forks is a meeting place, and it has become quite a meeting place.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the minister accurately points out the Seine River, and maybe what I should be doing is just talking in terms of the waterways in Winnipeg in trying to get an understanding of whether or not there is some form of a long-term development of our waterways in the province.

I would assume the department does have discussions with the city on this particular topic. Has there ever been any sort of a discussion in which there would be some form of a joint committee to review our waterways and to maybe come up with some sort of a policy with respect to the long-term usage of all of our waterways?

Mr. Reimer: It should be pointed out that the lead government, if you want to call it, in the approach to the waterways through here in Winnipeg, like the Red and the Assiniboine and the other rivers that I alluded to, like the Seine River and, I guess, to an extent some of the other ones, they are mainly initiated and implemented by the City of Winnipeg as to the direction and any type of studies on their usage. So the City of Winnipeg plays the lead role in any type of evaluation as to the use or the direction or the implementation of any type of plans around them.

Mr. Lamoureux: I would acknowledge that, too. In fact, earlier I did just that, so no doubt the city would have the leading role to play, but equally--and again I am trying to recollect from a number of years back where I believe it was a joint project out in Saskatoon with different levels of government, and I believe it was called the Meewasin project or something of that nature. The question is, does the provincial government here, the Department of Urban Affairs believe movement in that direction would be a positive thing to try to get people with vested interests? Obviously, in the development of our rivers, we would have to have the province playing some form of a role, and the best way to start that off, of course, is to be sitting at the table helping to contribute to what our rivers could be providing for the citizenry into the future.

(Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I will let the minister respond to that before I move on to the next line of questioning that I had, but again I would emphasize that I am interested in the long-term proposals. Maybe the city has approached the minister or the department in some capacity, or something of this nature. Does the minister himself want to see a long-term proposal for our waterways?

Mr. Reimer: I guess that, with any type of initiative regarding the riverfront and the riverbank improvement, we are willing to sit down and talk to the City of Winnipeg and offer suggestions.

I believe it was back in 1990 there were discussions initiated by the then-Minister Ducharme regarding the city of Winnipeg and how we could participate in the improvement and the knowledge and the direction that should be taken regarding the river and the riverbank creation and its attractiveness. The ball was never carried by the city. The overture was made by the then-Minister Ducharme, and it just seemed to die a natural death in a sense that there did not seem to be that type of interest shown by the City of Winnipeg at that time.

It is not that the area is not worthy of discussion. It is just that the city has indicated their jurisdictional position of being the lead government on it, so that the initiatives that they would come forth with, I imagine it is like anything, we will sit down and talk with them.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, yes, it would be nice if possibly City Hall would take more of an interest if in fact they have not done it to the degree in terms of wanting to be able to participate or get the province to participate. I think maybe it is because we do have other projects where you do have the different levels of government participating. Maybe there has been an emphasis on that and maybe not as much emphasis as some of us would have liked to have seen with respect to the overall plan for our waterways.

I made reference to zonings, that sort of thing, land usage. In Winnipeg we have a 24-hour airport, for example. I know there is a great deal of concern both from the air industry and the communities that are just off the side or fairly close to the landing and departure runways. I am wondering if the minister can give some sort of an indication in terms of what, if anything, the province feels it can be doing to address some of those demands that are out there.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I believe what the member for Inkster is referring to is the airport vicinity development plan and the WINNPORT project that has been brought forth by I guess the Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay) and also the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), because it does have the ability to look at Winnipeg as mentioned because it is one of the few, or I should say, I guess, it is maybe one of the very few that is 24-hour operation.

Under the Winnipeg Development Agreement, under the WDA, under the strategic and sectorial investments section of the Winnipeg Development Agreement under the through transportation there was $5 million to fund projects that support and enhance Winnipeg's historical role in the transportation industry and maximize its economic development opportunities. The projects could support implementation of the airport multimodal cargo hub initiative and the development of an airport area plan to facilitate the Northern Hemisphere Distribution Alliance project. So there is a recognition of the importance. Through the WDA there are monies earmarked for looking at future development.

* (2030)

It does form a very integral part of Winnipeg and Manitoba and the opportunities that can arise from it as it is being developed.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I am interested in knowing what sort of restrictions on zoning or building of any sort that the province through the Department of Urban Affairs or maybe even in other capacities or other departments, like I made reference to the Department of Highways, but what are the types of restrictions that are in fact out there? Building over waterways, I know there was some discussion years back in terms of the possibility of a bill that would prevent the construction over waterways. What sorts of limitations are there for construction currently that the province imposes on the city? In particular, I am concerned about the airport.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the member must recognize that a lot of the zoning and the application of zoning is within the City of Winnipeg jurisdiction.

In regard to the airport development, there are certain restrictions that fall into the character of concern within the province, and in the development of it, there is a concern that that is addressed. In general, the zoning and the application of zoning are within the jurisdiction of what the city feels that they want to address.

Mr. Lamoureux: For example, is there anything then that would, let us say, stop the city if it wanted to have residential development continue west and north of the airport? Is there anything that prevents the city from, let us say, building a walkway over the Red River or the Assiniboine River. Is there anything that the province has some restrictions on in terms of potential development in the city of Winnipeg?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are concerns regarding, as the member mentioned, residential development that goes into certain areas within close proximity to the airport, and they would fall under the Plan Winnipeg policies. The concerns would be addressed through that and also through the special airport zoning that is in place in regard to what can or cannot be developed in the proximity of the airport itself. The special airport zoning: there is airport zoning that is in place which will designate and restrict certain types of development in and around the airport--part of Plan Winnipeg policies and special airport zoning. They would come into effect of any type of development that is within the purview of the airport.

Mr. Lamoureux: I want to move on in terms of urban revitalization, which was another area that I wanted to talk to the minister about. In pockets throughout the city of Winnipeg, virtually you will find that there are a number of things that could likely be done to improve a neighbourhood's appearance. For example, I made reference in my opening remarks to the community of Weston, and the reason for that is that I spent a few years in Weston and was quite involved with the local residents' association and was quite impressed in terms of how the residents' association was able to attempt to get their community revitalized.

There were a couple of programs back then, for example, the housing co-op start program. There was an in-fill housing program. There was the revitalization agreement between the Department of Urban Affairs and the City of Winnipeg in certain sectors of Winnipeg. All of these were able to provide for many of the individuals that lived in the community that wanted to improve the appearance, if you like, of the community. They could actually get involved and participate in and actually see things being done.

I guess I would want to start off with respect to the revitalization boards. If the minister could just indicate how many revitalization boards were established over the last decade type thing. I was fortunate enough that shortly after getting elected there was the Burrows-Shaughnessy Revitalization Board. How many revitalization boards are there today that are still active, and when is the department looking at bringing in additional revitalization mechanisms?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the Winnipeg Development Agreement that is in place right now between the three levels of government, as I pointed out, is a five-year agreement with $25 million from each level. It creates quite an opportunity in various venues to help the community in very diverse ways. It is there to create employment. It is there to assist people to find jobs. It is there to create a healthy and a safe environmentally sound community. It works in various components.

The principles behind it are that it is city-wide. So there are various areas within the city, not only in the so-called core area that can be eligible, but other areas within the city, as the member has alluded to regarding his constituency of Inkster. Being city-wide, there is the availability of funding that can fall into the neighbourhood improvement area where there is $7 million which has been allocated. It is predominately really to revitalize older predominately residential neighbourhoods. It will target declining neighbourhoods and stable environments also with pockets of deterioration and emphasize citizen involvement.

* (2040)

I believe what the member was referring to was regarding the pockets of help that could be available. It also addresses the need for housing, which I think he alluded to, to expand the availability of housing for people having difficulty in accessing adequate shelter. It also provides for the homeownership opportunities for low-income families and assistance to community groups to provide housing for high-need groups.

It has its overtures to all aspects of the various neighbourhoods so that it is not only for a downtown revitalization but it is also for the fact that other areas of the city can take advantage of it.

In looking at the labour force development there is availability for job access. There is availability for career access under the WDA. There is also the availability for pilot projects and demonstration projects which are joint development of pilot projects between employees, unions, schools, community agencies with the idea and the focus on preventative and self-help measures that predominate the development of partnerships; for example, career education initiatives in inner-city schools and possibly even school-business partnerships.

The Winnipeg Development Agreement gives us a broad spectrum of opportunities to look within the community and look within the people and look within the--do an asset assessment valuation of what is available and use that as a catalyst to build upon. The funding that is available for it is for use for various projects like this.

I would think that there is an opportunity, since it is city wide, that even the member for Inkster, if there are projects in his area that he might be thinking, could maybe tie in here. It is a good opportunity to follow up on it through the various levels of government.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, if I understood correctly, under the Winnipeg Development Agreement there is a component known as the neighbourhood improvement program which would be, in essence, the capital revitalization of communities of approximately $7 million over a five-year time span. Are there any other revitalization programs? I am thinking more specifically of programs such as the Burrows-Shaughnessy, the Weston revitalization program, some of the more inner-city revitalization programs.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, there is a program that has been pointed out to me. It is the Manitoba/Winnipeg Community Revitalization Program. This is a 50-50 cost-sharing initiative that was developed between the city and the province in 1985. It is designed to improve the living conditions in Winnipeg's older residential neighbourhoods. The committee of residents for the group is involved in planning the revitalization of their neighbourhood. It is delivered by the city's community planning division and monitored by this department, the Department of Urban Affairs. The areas designated to receive the funding are identified in the city's annual capital estimates. The neighbourhood requires approval by the province prior to the final approval by the City Council.

Between 1985 and 1991, the province committed just about $6 million, $5.9 million, as its 50 percent share toward the revitalization of five areas: Weston was one; Spence-Memorial was another one; Transcona Centre; Burrows-Shaughnessy, which the member has alluded to, I believe; and Fort Rouge, which is at its Phase 1 stage. The site offices for the Weston, the Spence-Memorial, the Transcona Centre and the Burrows-Shaughnessy projects have been closed, and final reports have been prepared by the city.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

The Fort Rouge community revitalization strategy was approved by the province on April 15, 1994; the Elmwood community revitalization strategy was approved by the community at the annual general meeting on May 12, 1994. The annual general meeting for the Glenwood project was held on March 21, 1995, and the east Norwood area will be held on May 31, 1995, or I guess it has just been held, to review the community strategy there.

The Norwood-East and the Glenwood projects have received initial funding and have yet to establish a site. Negotiations are being conducted to lease space in the St. Boniface-St. Vital community centre on St. Mary's Road.

I should point out that I have a list of the various projects and their costings, and they are from Fort Rouge, as mentioned, Elmwood, east Norwood, Glenwood--yes, those are the areas.

Mr. Lamoureux: What is the annual commitment that the government makes? This is actually the program that I was wanting to get into. What sort of an annual commitment has been going on average to this particular program?

Mr. Reimer: The amount of money that has been committed since 1985 has varied. It has varied from a low of $500,000 to a high of a million dollars a year in these various things. There is an ongoing commitment of a very strong and conscientious government to the funding of these projects, and it shows by the results that I believe were even mentioned in one of the local papers just a while ago in regard to one of the areas.

They said that in Elmwood, close to the member for Concordia's (Mr. Doer) area, I believe, and the Radisson area also--[interjection] That is right, there was a recognition of the value by--the people in the area were saying how it was money that was well spent, and the community was well aware of the payback and the community involvement in making the project viable.

Mr. Lamoureux: Actually, I am somewhat familiar in terms of just how much the community members actually take an interest. I actually served on the Weston revitalization board for maybe just under a couple of years or somewhere around that period of time. It is in fact a very good experience for individuals that live in the community to be able to participate in the development of the community.

You will find or at least I have found that individuals that participate in the community revitalization boards remain very much interested in the follow-up in many of the different projects. I remain committed to the community in terms of its development well into the future, and this is one of the reasons why I am a supporter of this particular program, because I acknowledge that there is a need for us to go into communities and assist in revitalizing in different forms.

* (2050)

The minister made reference or we talked briefly about the neighbourhood improvement program, and I am wondering if he can give some sort of an indication on how dollars or these capital dollars would be disbursed, the process.

Mr. Reimer: This is a good example of community involvement in these resident revitalization programs, because the community has the opportunity for input. They have the ability to be part of the decision making. Although the administration of it is by the city of Winnipeg, I should point out, there is a sense of consultation with the community in their project and their revitalization of what they seem to bring forth.

With the consultation with the city, as 50 percent partners we pay our share that is brought forth on the recommendation by the city. This city in essence is bringing it forth from their participation and their consultation with the people in the community. It is truly a grassroots type of endeavour of revitalization and a betterment for their community in their particular area and their endeavour of what they feel is important.

Mr. Lamoureux: Maybe the minister can give examples of how some of that money has been allocated. To what type of projects?

Mr. Reimer: As for examples that the member is asking for, there are various ones. I guess what comes to mind first is that there are the recreation facilities that the communities are mainly involved with and which they want to see betterment of; the community centres themselves, the community facilities, I should say, in their particular area, the betterment of them in their priorities; also street improvements, some street improvements in certain areas that they feel are warranted; children's playgrounds, the improvement of children's playgrounds and the structures involved with that, something for the community as a sense of gathering.

At times, even housing is looked at in a certain way for improvement. These are all centred around, as the member can recognize, the community and what the community feels as a priority for their particular area of enjoyment, for the quality of life in their particular area. Those are some of the examples.

Mr. Lamoureux: Under the community revitalization board, of course, it is the community members that make up the board; the board then determines what its priorities are going to be for building within the community, whether it is a play structure, a housing program or many of the things that the minister has just made reference to. Here it is the administration that actually ultimately determines and then they consult with members of the community, or is there an application process? For example, if a particular community wants to build a community club, they would go to the neighbourhood improvement program and ask for an application, or are there some criteria because it is in fact a revitalization program? What we are talking about is a replacement of community clubs or upgrading community clubs or play structures, this sort of thing. Could the minister maybe just comment on that?

Mr. Reimer: It should be pointed out that the direction of emphasis and the priority is placed by the community. It is by the people that are within the community themselves, their analysis of what they feel is important for that particular area and their quality of life or their quality of recreation or what they feel is important in that area.

It is then brought up to the City of Winnipeg, which is the administrator and the powers-to-be in regard to the viability of it and the analysis of it, and then the consultation is between mainly the city and the community as to what they feel is the best to work.

The residents elect representatives to the community executive, and then those people there work with the city as the contact. So the City of Winnipeg would have contacts, in a certain area, of people that the community would elect to be their spokespersons regarding the various projects.

It truly is a grassroots affair in a sense of where the direction and where the emphasis comes, and it comes from the community.

Mr. Lamoureux: I just want a bit of clarification. If there is a community that is out there that wants to be able to participate, they would then elect a resident of that community to sit on what sort of a board? I appreciate that the minister is saying that, yes, this grassroots, it is community driven, similar to possibly the revitalization board, but I am just not necessarily making the connection in terms of how these communities are, in fact, defined with respect then to have a resident elected from that community to represent the community. It is not quite clicking.

Mr. Reimer: I should point out that the areas that are designated to receive the funding are first identified in the city's annual capital estimates. Once that particular area has been identified, it requires approval by the province as an area of concern, and once the area has been identified, the city will then make overtures within that particular area to look for people to come forth with ideas.

It would look for these people to be involved with the program, that they are designating a certain area for this type of program. From there that is where you would get the people involved elected by the community at large to represent them. That starts the process of identification. That starts the process of consultation. It sets in motion an analysis program of what needs are recognized and where the emphasis should be placed for the expenditures of funding.

Mr. Lamoureux: Does the minister have a list of the designated communities that the city has developed?

* (2100)

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, the areas that have been identified as mentioned since 1985 have been Fort Rouge, Elmwood, east Norwood and Glenwood. The total commitment on those four areas is just over $10 million, $10.5 million. As mentioned, our share would be half of that.

This is an ongoing type of project. We have not been made aware of any new identifications that the city has come forth with, but then these come through as budgetary submissions on their part. Whether there are new ones in the works or additional ones, we have not been made aware of any as to date.

Mr. Lamoureux: If there was a community that was out there that was not on this list, then the way to get on that list would be to approach City Hall and say, hey, look. we as a community want to be able to have funds to revitalize or bring in programs that will help revitalize our community. The way to go is through City Hall, get listed, and then if the province deems that particular community is acceptable in terms of revitalization dollars, it then would say, no problem. The dollars, or at least the possibility of dollars, would then flow.

Mr. Reimer: The member is right in his assumption. The best way to approach it if there is a certain area or community that is looking at accessing the program is to make their overtures to the local councillor, and at that time the process becomes apparent.

Mr. Lamoureux: Does the department do anything with respect to maybe areas in which there is a need for revitalization and maybe there have not been those overtures that have been made in terms of seeking revitalization dollars?

Mr. Reimer: The emphasis and the direction of the program are really driven by the City of Winnipeg. We, more or less, take the responsibility of involvement once the project has been identified, and then we become partners with the city at that time. The initiative is not driven by Urban Affairs. It is more or less driven by the City of Winnipeg and the community groups themselves. We get involved as a 50-50 partner once the areas have been identified by the city. It is a City of Winnipeg initiative really.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I can appreciate the fact that the city again should be playing the lead role on this whole issue. I do believe that, as a department, there is that role and the department does play that in terms of making dollars available to ensure there is a certain amount of revitalization that is ongoing, if you like. That is absolutely critical.

I am wondering if the department can give some sort of indication of the housing stock or commercial stock. Do they have some sort of, let us say, a time period, like this percentage of the housing stock would have been built roughly in this time period, commercial development, so they can see into the future what the future demands are going to be in terms of area revitalization? Does the department venture into that sort of whether it is called investigation or trying to keep on top of urban needs into the future?

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Reimer: As pointed out, a lot of the emphasis is regarding the City of Winnipeg and their analysis of the situation. This is, again, because the City of Winnipeg has the availability and the staffing to do an evaluation as to their neighbourhoods and where they feel there should be an emphasis. We rely on them to bring forth their projects, because they have the ability to do a proper analysis of their housing stock and their community re-evaluation and evaluations. Our Department of Urban Affairs is not in a position to do that type of in-depth analysis, whereas the City of Winnipeg can do that through their department. It is a reliance on the City of Winnipeg to bring forth the projects or the areas that they would like some action taken towards.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I would wonder then if the government of the day would actually seek advice from the Department of Urban Affairs when it wants to introduce a program that will have an impact. For example, we had the home repair program that was instituted. One would think they would have some sort of an idea of housing conditions and things of that nature.

* (2110)

I guess what I am looking at is some sort of idea whether or not the Department of Urban Affairs has some forecasting capabilities in terms of what the future demands are going to be on the Department of Urban Affairs or the province in terms of contributions into the future on ensuring a certain quality of housing stock, commercial stock. Obviously, that same principle, it is not just the City of Winnipeg ultimately, but the same sorts of questions could be asked of the minister of municipal affairs in terms of trying to find out just how much potentially is out there.

Mr. Chairperson, 10 or 15 years from now, for example, are we going to have to come up with fairly significant programs because there was not enough revitalization in certain quadrants, whether it is the province or the City of Winnipeg, whereas if we did provide additional incentives for people to revitalize the communities the future costs could in fact be saved?

This is what I am looking for: it is to get some sort of an idea whether or not the Department of Urban Affairs is aware of the overall or general condition of housing stock and the type of dollars that are going towards revitalization into the future.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, what the member is asking about, I guess, is a bit of an overlap between the two departments, the Department of Housing and the Department of Urban Affairs, in a sense. To try to differentiate the two towards the Department of Urban Affairs is sort of like juggling jello. You cannot get your hand on it because it moves around on you.

In essence there is no forecasting mechanism within the Department of Urban Affairs to foretell where the trends are in housing and which way the market dictates. We can look at the housing over the last 50, 60 years or so. We can look back to some of the housing that came in the market after the Second World War where we had little bungalows and little 600- and 700-square-foot homes. At that time they were the homes that everybody wanted. There were thousands of those homes built.

As you go through the trending of society, you have to bring in the other variables of housing stock, the so-called baby boomers, the families, the social values of how many children, the awareness that you are into an aging population now regarding housing and the emphasis that is going that way. There are a lot of variables that have to be brought into fact when you look at the housing and the housing stock.

Then again, as mentioned, through the two departments that I represent, Housing and Urban Affairs, there is a bit of an overlap between the two. As for the forecast for housing, we in the Department of Urban Affairs do not have the ability to do that type of forecasting. I do not even know whether the City of Winnipeg has the ability to do forecasting as to what type of housing or what types of accommodation needs are going to be needed in the future or at the turn of the century. It is kind of crystal-ball gazing, and I guess we are not in that department yet.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I am sure that the minister would at least concur in part that, if you drive around the city of Winnipeg, you will see, in particular in some areas, where the housing stock is actually fairly dilapidated. You could see significant dollars in the future having to be invested in some of these areas in order to upgrade. Ultimately, good, successful revitalization programs could prevent things or minimize premature suburban sprawl, if you like, seeing different areas becoming that much more high in terms of transients and so forth.

I appreciate what it is that the minister is saying and will accept it just at that, that there are limited resources from within the department, but I would anticipate that, or at least would like to emphasize, I do believe that the department has a responsibility in ensuring that some form of forecasting of urban needs such as housing and commercial stock, the aging of it, the condition of it overall, because ultimately it will have some form of an impact, maybe not in next year's budget but in years that will come, especially if we do not address the issue in the short term.

I wanted to move on to a couple of other issues before we start passing the department. I made reference to the whole concept of land banking and once again, just like I am sure I could virtually bring this up in the Housing Estimates as much as I could within the Department of Urban Affairs, there was a policy in government to get involved in land banking and I am wondering if the minister could indicate whether or not this is the opportune time to ask with respect to land banking, and if it is not, maybe he in his other capacity as Minister of Housing, in case we do not get to Housing, could provide me some information in terms of the current status of land banking in the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Reimer: I just wanted to point out to the member for Inkster, under the Winnipeg Development Agreement there is quite an amount of money that has been put aside for redevelopment, if you want to call it, and community development. For example, the north Main strategic development alone is $10 million of allocation of funds for that type of redevelopment.

The aboriginal community's facility is over $2.5 million dollars. The neighbourhood improvement, as we were just talking about for neighbourhood revitalization and neighbourhood infrastructure, is $7 million. We talked briefly about housing, which is about $1.5 million, and then when we get down to, again, the downtown revitalization area, just for that area alone we are looking at $4 million.

We have briefly mentioned the riverbank development. We are looking at $3.5 million in there. Heritage buildings, which we alluded to, for the building preservation and district cultural landscape preservation, we are looking at over $6.25 million. There is a significant amount of money that is being earmarked for that revitalization and that character that we want to put back into the city.

We have also, in 1994, I should point out that we gave the legislation which was enabling the city to give tax credits for home renovations of a structural kind. We have given the authority to the city to make these types of decisions, and they have been reluctant to do these things. The province has been quite proactive whenever the city has come forth in wanting to bring forth a program or an area of concern, but, as I mentioned, the legislation that would give tax credits for home renovations, they have not moved on it and we have given them the authority to do that.

We have been quite proactive in any type of initiative that we have taken with the City of Winnipeg. While I was just talking about the City of Winnipeg, the member, before we broke for supper, was asking me about the percentage of funding that was given to the City of Winnipeg as a percentage with other cities. I will just give him these figures here. The level of support from the provincial government--and these are other various major Canadian cities--as a percentage of provincial revenue to the City of Winnipeg, Winnipeg gets 17.5 percent; Regina from the province gets 7.5 percent; Saskatoon gets 8.6 percent; Edmonton gets 6.5 percent; and Calgary gets 6 percent. I do not have the figure, I was not able to pull out the figure for Toronto--the member for Inkster asked about Toronto--I do not have that figure.

When he looks at the comparison of, say, Winnipeg to Edmonton, for Winnipeg, 17.5 percent of their revenue comes from the Province of Manitoba compared to Edmonton, which gets 6.5 percent, so we are very generous in our support of the City of Winnipeg as a percentage of the revenue that they receive. Too often you hear the comment made that we are the lowest, but these are the figures as of 1994.

* (2120)

Mr. Lamoureux: I did ask the question with respect to land banks, but what I will do, I am going to defer those questions with the land bank. What I am interested in is knowing the current status of the land banks. I am familiar with the only other deal, MHRC-Qualico deal.

If in fact there is other land that has been purchased, if the minister can sometime over the next couple of weeks, sometime in the not-too-distant future, over the next few weeks type of thing--I am in no urgent need for it, to get it back to me.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

I am also interested, in particular, with respect to the MHRC-Qualico. I would even appreciate the opportunity to have a copy of the deal. I know I was given a copy of the Ladco deal by Minister Ducharme at the time.

Unfortunately, I have to defer some comments with respect to BFI. The minister made reference to fees. I do not necessarily believe at this stage in the game that there is a need for a second or third landfill site to service the city of Winnipeg. I do not think that that has been established as of yet. It seems that the real reason or one of the primary reasons why another landfill site is being looked at is because of the City of Winnipeg's tipping fees, if you like. If that is in fact the case, it would be somewhat sad to see another facility being built because obviously no one wants to have a landfill site put in their backyard. So, if we can justify that there is need for a third landfill site, then, fine, let us go for a third landfill site and look in terms of where would be the best location. I have not been convinced that that is in fact the case.

Anyhow, now that that is on the record, I did want to ask a few more questions with respect to the budget itself. Before I do that, I want to just clarify what the minister just told me. That surprised me to a certain degree, when he says 6 percent. Are we talking about the overall expenditures or revenues to the City of Winnipeg? The Province of Manitoba only makes up 17.5 percent, and the percentages that he just gave are the Province of Alberta's contribution; for example, to Edmonton. The City of Edmonton is 6.5 percent. Am I interpreting what he said correctly?

Mr. Reimer: This is a great opportunity for the member for Inkster to call in an old chit from the University of Winnipeg because this was taken from the Institute of Urban Studies, University of Winnipeg. It is a book called Budgeting and the Prairie City: A Commentary. The authors are Peter Diamant and Shelly Cory.

So the figures that I quoted are from--[interjection] I can give you the exact revenues if you want them.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Table it.

Mr. Reimer: Table it? Okay.

Mr. Doer: You have to table it.

Mr. Reimer: No, I do not. I just said where I got it from.

Point of Order

Mr. Doer: I believe that the rules state that if a minister refers to a document, they must table copies for all other parties, which he just did. So I thank him for that copy, and we could wait till tomorrow to get it. I think he has given us assurances that he will provide that. [interjection] Thank you, and we would like a copy of that as well, please.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of order. If he will refer to Rule 29.1: Where in a debate a member quotes from a private letter, any other member may require the member who quoted from the letter to table said letter.

* * *

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, not even wanting to question your ruling, but I would appreciate just a photocopy of that particular page because I am definitely interested in the actual revenues being given to those cities.

There are a couple of lines that I indicated that I wanted to get a brief comment on. The one is the Lotteries Funded Programs, or the Unconditional Grant to the City of Winnipeg, $5 million. Is that with respect to VLT revenues?

I am also interested in the Dutch elm disease. It is an issue which seems to come up on an annual basis. Is this something of an ongoing $700,000 into the future, or is it kind of a year-by-year decision whether or not to put money into the program?

Mr. Reimer: For the last two years there has been a level of funding that has been at the $700,000 mark for Dutch elm disease. It covers various aspects of the monitoring of the disease. To date, it has been fairly successful because I recall that the level of the disease has been maintained here in the city. Because of the program, there has only been approximately about a 2 percent tree loss. The program has been quite successful at holding the level of the disease at a controllable aspect, so we are quite satisfied with its success.

Mr. Lamoureux: And then the question with respect to the Lotteries?

Mr. Reimer: I am sorry, what was the question on Lotteries?

Mr. Lamoureux: On page 141 of the main Estimates, the Lotteries Funded Appropriations, I am just curious, does that come from--I understand that that is just expenditures from Lotteries--but would that come from the VLTs?

Mr. Reimer: The monies that are allocated in that line come from Lotteries. I do not believe they are earmarked specifically out of--yes, that comes straight from Lotteries, and it is given unconditionally.

Mr. Lamoureux: If the minister, and he can get it back to me, I am interested in knowing how much of that money would be coming from the one-armed bandits, as the Leader of the New Democratic Party puts it, the VLT machines. If the minister can, and, again, he does not have to get it back to me immediately, but I would appreciate it sometime in the not-too-distant future, and we are quite prepared to pass the Estimates.

Mr. Reimer: The member is asking for a specific percentage of the $5 million which comes out of VLTs. I can relay that message or try to get that information through the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), whether there is a breakdown.

An Honourable Member: You cannot get any information. We tried.

Mr. Reimer: No? Well, I will take it as a challenge to try to find it. We will try to see what we can come up with for the member for Inkster.

* (2130)

Mr. Chairperson: Item 1. Administration (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $176,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $ 43,700--pass.

Item 2. Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg (a) Unconditional Current Programs Grant $19,987,500--pass; (b) Unconditional Transit Operating Grant $16,672,500--pass; (c) General Support Grant $8,000,000--pass; (d) Dutch Elm Disease Control Program $700,000--pass.

Resolution 20.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $45,360,000 for Urban Affairs, Financial Assistance for the City of Winnipeg for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 3. Urban Affairs Program Support (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $515,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $221,800--pass; (c) Capital Region Sustainable Development Strategy $30,000--pass.

Resolution 20.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $767,700 for Urban Affairs, Urban Affairs Program Support, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 4. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg $16,000,000--pass; (b) Urban Initiatives $1,000,000--pass.

Resolution 20.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $17,000,000 for Urban Affairs, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 5. Lotteries Funded Programs (a) Unconditional Grant to the City of Winnipeg $5,000,000--pass.

Resolution 20.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,000,000 for Urban Affairs, Lotteries Funded Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

We now revert to the Minister's Salary.

Item 1. Administration (a) Minister's Salary $11,400--pass.

Resolution 20.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $231,800 for Urban Affairs, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

This concludes the Department of Urban Affairs.