ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Gasoline Pricing

Information Release

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister.

Madam Speaker, Manitobans over the last number of years have been very concerned about the prices of gasoline in the province. People in rural and northern Manitoba are even more concerned about the prices because often there is a large differential between the prices that people in our urban centres pay, which is considered to be often too high by those people, but even much greater and dramatic increases and price payments required by people living in communities outside of the southern areas of this province.

Madam Speaker, with this in mind, we asked the government to release information about price differentials, and the Ombudsman has stated that he feels that information should be released--and I will table the letter today--yet the government has chosen not to release that.

Would the Premier (Mr. Filmon) now, today, release the data and the information and make public the information that is required and stop the secrecy on gasoline pricing here in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, the opposition and ourselves as the government are quite concerned about the question of large increases in gasoline prices, not only in southern and northern Manitoba or rural and urban Manitoba but right across the country.

This is not an unique problem to Manitoba. It is a significant problem right across Canada. When you look at large markets like Toronto and Montreal where gasoline prices are significantly lower than they are in western Canada, or Atlantic Canada for that matter, we have significant concerns.

I wrote four or five different letters to the federal Minister responsible for Consumer Affairs in an attempt to get a national meeting on this issue with all of my colleagues from across Canada. Consumer ministers from right across the West certainly, and from Atlantic Canada, have supported that move, but unfortunately the federal minister refuses to deal with that issue. He will not call a meeting. He indicated last fall he would call it this spring. So far nothing has happened. We have written to him again looking for further support of that.

So we have significant concerns about those issues, and we hope to resolve that very soon.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister was not even close to the question I asked him and he knows that. I asked the government, the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), to release the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs from the secrecy in that the Ombudsman has stated that he sees no reason--[interjection] If you want to answer the question, have the intestinal fortitude to stand up and answer it. Do not sit there in your seat.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition, to pose a question.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, can the Premier respond to the fact that in 1990 Ed Connery said that he stopped an inquiry into gas prices here in the province of Manitoba and now his own Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is refusing to release information on the difference of gas prices here in Manitoba after the Ombudsman ordered that that information be released to the people of Manitoba?

Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, the gas price on any given day is publicly advertised everywhere across the province in rather large significant numbers. What happens over time with the collection of that data--today it is current and public; tomorrow and the day after and the day after, it changes. So what happens is we have a system in place for collection of that data which is, in itself, confidential, not the number on the specific day but the collection of that data over time.

We have 70 or 80 people we deal with right across the province on a confidential basis, and it is on that basis that they provide us the information, rather than have us send out an inspector to check every price that is on that sign at that particular day. Those dealers that have over time come to understand and say that this issue is not going to be released, they understand that and they are doing it on a confidential basis. Should it be released--the collective information, Madam Speaker--they are reluctant then to provide us any information at all, and we will either have no information or have a significant cost associated with trying to assemble that information over that period of time.

So it is on that basis that the information was declined to be released.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, people in northern and rural Manitoba want to know why there is a massive differential between the prices of gas that people pay in southern communities in this country and northern and rural communities in this province. They want to know. The government has the information. The provincial Ombudsman identified that the cabinet is informed of this information. The provincial Ombudsman stated that this is not confidential; it is not commercial confidential, it is not cabinet confidentiality required and has ordered the government to release the information.

Will the Premier now stop the secrecy and have this information released to the public, as requested and cited by the provincial Ombudsman in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I do not understand what secrecy the Leader of the Opposition is speaking about. The numbers, the prices, are posted publicly every day in letters this high at every service station in Manitoba. Where is the secrecy? It is absolutely ridiculous.

Madam Speaker, you know, it is kind of interesting and appropriate that the questions are being asked today in this House with the former premier, his former leader in attendance, because in the 1986 election campaign, that premier announced that he was going to bring down the prices of gasoline, that he was going to, in fact, ensure that this differential was eliminated--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate."

I would suggest in the case of the Premier, that also includes not getting into the kinds of cheap shots we are seeing once again from this Premier. I would ask you, if he is going to engage in those kinds of comments, at least that he answer the questions under our rules and stop the kind of low-road behaviour we are becoming quite used to from this Premier in this House.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order, I would remind all ministers that, indeed, answers to questions should be brief and should not provoke debate.

I would also like to caution the honourable member for Thompson that points of order should be explicit to the rules, and I would suggest that he exercise caution in the choice of his words when reflecting on another member.

Brandon General Hospital

Breast Screening Unit

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Health, Madam Speaker.

A week before the last provincial election there was a formal ribbon-cutting, official opening of a new breast-screening unit for cancer detection at the Brandon General Hospital, which provided a great photo opportunity for the Minister of Health.

After the opening, it was discovered that the unit was not functional, but then assurances were given that it would be operational by June. Now we are at the end of June, Madam Speaker, and have learned that the unit is empty and that no staff have been hired.

My question to the minister is, will the minister confirm that the unit is not operational and will not be for some time to come, and does he plan another official opening when it is ready to go?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, at the time of the event referred to by the honourable member, I note that he was also on the invitation list and responded to that invitation in the same way that I did, in the same way that the mayor of the city of Brandon did and the others who were there.

The Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation is in charge of the setting up of this program, which we are very pleased is coming. I share the honourable member's concerns sometimes about when, but I am advised that on July 17 the service will be available to Manitoba women, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that the equipment brought in for the official opening and demonstrated to the public was not the correct equipment and that the new mammography unit and the new film processing unit to be used in this program have still not yet been obtained by the hospital?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, Madam Speaker, I will confirm that.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Can the minister tell this House, Madam Speaker, how much money has been wasted by a premature official opening with premature construction of this breast-screening unit for the official opening, then tearing it down and having to rebuild it again?

How much money was wasted to help re-elect the Filmon government?

Mr. McCrae: I do not think I can accept that any money was wasted, Madam Speaker.

Dr. Schacter, the director of the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, explained on the day the honourable member refers to that it is important for the foundation to make Manitoba women aware of the new service which will be available for all women between the ages of 50 and 70 years of age to allow for an expanded capacity for us to engage in mammography screening, so I do not think any money has been wasted. I can pass the question along to the foundation and attempt to find out for the honourable member.

The ceremony that was held I believe was necessary, and Dr. Schacter gave that answer that day for the general public. We want the people to know the service is there because we believe we can save as many as 50 lives a year, Madam Speaker.

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Bell of Batoche

Theft

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice.

Yesterday the Minister of Justice told the House that the recovery of the bell of Batoche and legal process relating to the matter was not her responsibility or the responsibility of her department but was Ontario's problem.

Strangely, we understand that on or about June 13, the Crown attorney's department at Peterborough faxed or corresponded with the minister's department, seeking the issuance of search warrants by Manitoba.

My question to the minister is, would she explain why she has now chosen to have a policy that no legal action will be taken by her department, by Manitoba, for goods in this province, in Manitoba, obtained by crime? Does this mean that Manitoba is now to be a sanctuary for stolen vehicles or for bells and medals from Ontario or Timbuktu?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, how incredibly ridiculous--how incredibly ridiculous.

Madam Speaker, the information that I gave in this House yesterday is that the issue has been turned over to the Attorney General of Ontario's department to look at. I understand that they are looking at it in co-operation with the Solicitor General of Ontario, and the case is proceeding, the investigation is proceeding.

No, I will not confirm any details of the investigation in this House.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister then explain to Manitobans how she can justify sending a matter outside of this province relating to evidence about stolen goods or goods obtained by a crime in Manitoba? Is this the haven for stolen vehicles, Madam Speaker?

Mrs. Vodrey: I still am always amazed at the member for St. Johns and the issues that he tries to create, the kinds of information that he tries to bring forward.

Madam Speaker, he knows full well how cases are conducted, where the alleged incident actually took place, what in fact happens with any evidence which is here and how it is subsumed within the case which is now being conducted, the investigation which is being conducted within the province of Ontario.

Madam Speaker, I will not confirm any further details. I have made that clear.

Mr. Mackintosh: I ask the Minister of Justice, following on a question posed to her on Wednesday and which was not answered yesterday, whether she has received and reviewed a letter dated May 21, 1992, signed by the former president of the Manitoba Metis Federation and addressed to a Professor Bradford Morse and whether she is aware of any inquiry or investigation following that. In particular, on behalf of the people of Manitoba, is she prepared to formally ask the former president of the MMF to make a full and complete explanation to Manitobans as to what he knew or continues to know regarding the Ontario break-and-enter and the whereabouts of the bell of Batoche?

I will table that correspondence for the House, Madam Speaker.

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I am pleased the member will table it. He often references documents or statistics or information which he fails to table in this House. However--[interjection] It is true.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker, and I will not read Citation 417 again, because I am sure members will recall I read it earlier in Question Period, but the minister has no business in her answer questioning the information brought to this House by the member for St. Johns, particularly when the member just tabled the letter he is referring to.

The minister should withdraw that comment and should answer the question, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable minister, to quickly complete a response.

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I said, I am glad he did table it this time.

As I have said, all information, all details of the case, all matters relating to this issue have all been forwarded to the Attorney General of Ontario who is currently investigating the matter. I will not discuss any details of the case.

The member for St. Johns always wants to bring forward--before any charges have ever been laid in any matter, he would like to bring it forward. Well, Madam Speaker, many people are, in fact, innocent.

There is an investigation. I have managed to confirm that. I will not give any further details regarding that, in the interest of fairness.

Bell of Batoche

Theft

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs.

Yesterday the minister refused to answer questions posed to him regarding the bell of Batoche. Today, I ask him once again, would he tell Manitobans where and at what function and when did he see the bell that he spoke to reporters and myself about on Wednesday?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Speaker, the Attorney General has answered the question with respect to investigation, and I leave it in the hands of proper authorities.

Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, once again, I ask the minister to tell Manitobans who are the proper authorities in Manitoba to receive information about the conduct of this government and this minister, where, at what function and when did he see the bell he told reporters and myself about on Wednesday?

Point of Order

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): In the interests of information, Madam Speaker, and in the interests of the reasonable functioning of this House and in Question Period, I have not raised this issue previously, but under Citation 409.(10): "A question ought not to refer to a statement made outside the House by a Minister."

Madam Speaker, his questions are clearly out of order. They have been out of order, and I ask you to rule them out of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I believe if the government House leader were to listen to the questions that were posed yesterday and today as well, the question is most definitely in order. It asks the minister in regards to where he saw the bell, what function and what date, and whether or not the minister has made comments outside of this House to that effect is not relevant to the question of whether the question itself is in order.

The question, I would suggest, Madam Speaker, is most definitely in order, and we would appreciate an answer from the minister on that very important question.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The point of order by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is indeed cited in Beauchesne 409.(10), and indeed I will determine that he did have a point of order.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Let me rephrase my question. I ask the minister if he would now tell Manitobans where, at what function and when did he see the bell that, in his view, may or may not have been the bell of Batoche.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as the Attorney General has indicated, there is an investigation underway, and I will certainly abide by any process and co-operate with any official who approaches me for that information. I have never been approached for that.

Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, I ask the minister, in light of the investigation that is ongoing by the people of Manitoba, and asking that he follow the democratic process, I ask again, where did he see the bell? Was it at Grand Marais? When was it? Was it in June of '94? What was the function? Would he tell Manitobans now?

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have said before, there is a process underway and I will deal with any official who approaches me for information, as, I have indicated to the member, I have done on other occasions on other matters. I do take the law very seriously and I have, on occasion, as I have said, where information has come to my attention, where I believed it to be necessary for a criminal investigation, gone to the RCMP and made a statement. So certainly I take my responsibility seriously.

North Winnipeg YM-YWCA

Funding

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, today is a sad day for seniors, youth, children and adults and all users of the North Y community centre, since this is the last day that the health, fitness and recreation programs will be operating. I think that if our three levels of government put $111 million into a new arena and allow this facility to close permanently, then our priorities are badly mixed up.

On May 25 I asked the Premier if he would see if there was something that the provincial government could do to provide funding to keep the facility open.

I would like to ask the Premier, what has he done since May 25 to see if his government or government departments can be helpful in reopening this very valuable community facility?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I would make the point that the maintenance of NHL hockey in Manitoba results in $6 million of taxation revenue each and every year to the provincial Treasury that allows us to be able to invest in education, in health, in family services and all sorts of community activities. That is something his party is trying to cut out, which would be unfortunate for Manitobans to lose that $6 million of tax revenue that allows us to pay for health, education and family services and so many issues.

Since May 25, I believe the date was that the question was asked, I have ensured that a representative of our government has attended the various meetings that have taken place. I have had communication with the YM-YWCA who have asked that we not act, shall we say, in an individual sense with respect to the north Winnipeg Y but look at global issues.

The conclusion of the most recent community meeting, I believe, was that a facilities review and a program review be done and that three levels of government be asked to participate in the cost of that study to see just exactly what it is that is required for long-term viability and maintenance of the YM-YWCA in north Winnipeg. I believe it has been indicated informally, because it has not yet been in a formal proposal to government, that we would be willing to participate in such an effort and share in some of the costs.

It remains as that. We are continuing to participate with the meetings and to see whether or not there is a role for us to play and a responsibility for us to undertake in maintaining the operations of the YM-YWCA.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the Premier for that answer.

Will the Premier and his government designate the North Y facility as a priority for the provincial government for federal infrastructure renewal funding, since federal member of Parliament Mr. Pagtakhan tells me that the city and the province must designate their priorities to receive federal infrastructure renewal funding?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I find this a curious question because all of the money under the Infrastructure Program has been allocated, and this is for quite some time. The application deadline has expired quite some time ago.

Under all of these circumstances, if the federal government were to put additional money on the table and extend the Infrastructure Agreement with new money, then Mr. Pagtakhan could make that kind of commitment, but he cannot go making commitments on behalf of money that has already been allocated.

Mr. Martindale: Will the Premier or the Minister of Urban Affairs assure the House that the three government departments that currently fund programs in the North Y will work together to ensure that their funding continues and that the rental money that they provide to the facility will be increased to realistic levels?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, I can assure the member for Burrows that if any type of proposal comes forth, that it will warrant consideration of the magnitude and its implications.

Hecla Island Resort

Future Status

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for Natural Resources.

We are fortunate in Manitoba in the sense that we have first-class resort facilities, one, of course, being the Hecla Island resort. In a recent report from the Crown Corporations Council, and I quote directly from it, Madam Speaker, the council recommended that the resort be sold. If a buyer cannot be found, consideration should be given to the closing of the resort or converting it to an alternative use.

I am wondering if the minister can indicate what course the province plans to pursue with this particular resort.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I think all members are aware of the ongoing bleeding that is taking place at the resort in terms of having to subsidize the operation out there. We have been looking at various options in terms of seeing whether we can cut the losses and still provide the jobs and the privileges of the resort out there.

This is an ongoing process, and, ultimately, I think we are reviewing, and if we come up with something that is going to allow us to operate the facility without the losses that have been occurring for many, many years, then we would do that.

Management

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the minister can indicate, does the government believe that there is a problem with the management of this particular resort, given that there are other private resorts that are in fact quite successful?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, we have a board that basically is responsible for the decisions and for the management out there. I think they are a very capable group that are looking at it, and I cannot pass judgment on the management. I think there are other things that enter into the picture, but certainly I am not going to start second-guessing the board that is operating it right now.

Advertising

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) consider advertising the resort more aggressively, both inside and outside the province, by concentrating some of the existing advertising expenditures on the resort?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I do not know if the member for Inkster has been watching the television or some of the commercials that have been going on. There has been quite an extensive commercialization or advertising taking place related to Hecla resort. I encourage members to go out there and enjoy it.

Winnipeg Arena

Design

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Yesterday the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) confirmed that the government had received a briefing this week from the Dominion Hunt and Spirit of Manitoba consortium in regard to the proposed arena.

I wonder if the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) would be prepared to confirm that as of today they will be signing off the design of the new arena prior to any public review of the planned construction, the various facilities in the arena and so forth, and while very serious users of the current arena have asked very important questions about the inadequacies of this design and have received to date no answers whatsoever. Will it be signed off today as this construction timetable calls for by this government?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): No, Madam Speaker, I will not confirm that.

In terms of the other aspects of the member's question when he calls into question the nature of the kind of facility that might be built here in Winnipeg, while the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) refers to Scott Taylor, I think that has been part of the unfortunate dealing of this whole issue is that again instead of listening to answers that are provided to them here in this House, they take all of their information from editorial comments in various newspapers.

The kind of facility that would be built here in Manitoba, if one is going to be built, Madam Speaker, would be a state-of-the-art facility. It would meet all of the concerns that have been raised by the individual referred to by the member for Crescentwood and some of the issues that he has raised during the Estimates process.

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Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can the minister tell Manitobans just who is going to sign off this agreement, given that there is no legal entity as yet in place to own the new arena and the construction time line tells us that it must be signed off very shortly? Just who is going to put their name on the document that says this is an adequate building on behalf of this government? When is that going to happen?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have indicated on many occasions in this House that if and when a facility is entered into, it will be a facility that is jointly owned by the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba. We would be entering into an agreement with the Spirit of Manitoba in terms of the building of that facility. One component of that will potentially be entering into an agreement with Dominion Hunt to be the lead contractor on the building of that facility. Those are the natures of the agreements that might be entered into.

Winnipeg Jets

Operating Losses

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Finance confirm for this House today that the Corporate, Finance and Comptrollers Division of the City of Winnipeg now believes that the losses for the Winnipeg Jets for the next two seasons will approximate $28 million for each of the two seasons, more than the endowment fund will provide before the new arena is even open? Will he confirm that the estimates are now $28 million a year for each of the next two years?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Once again, Madam Speaker, no, I will not confirm that.

As the member for Crescentwood and the members opposite know, if agreements are concluded no later than August 15, the operations of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club will become the responsibility of the private sector. Governments will be responsible for the building of the facility and leasing that back to the Spirit of Manitoba, but the responsibility for funding any future losses effective at the closing of the transaction would in fact become the responsibility of the private sector and not the responsibility of the Province of Manitoba or the City of Winnipeg.

Health Sciences Centre

Budget Reduction

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, we are very concerned on this side of the House about the comments made by the officials from the Health Sciences Centre concerning the cuts that have been forced upon the Health Sciences Centre and the fact that the Health Sciences Centre is telling departments that they no longer have to provide the same level or quality of service any longer as a result of the cuts.

I wonder if the minister might comment, given that this government has directed the hospitals to cut substantial sums of money from their budgets, what effect this cut, after tens of millions of dollars of cuts previously to the hospitals, will have on the quality of care that has deteriorated seriously in the last several years as a result of government cuts.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member is incorrect in suggesting that this government has given directions respecting the budgets of Manitoba hospitals for 1996-97. We are just completing the process for 1995-96 and getting budgets set for the various hospitals.

The question the honourable member asks relates to questions he asked yesterday which I answered yesterday. The Health Sciences Centre is working from an unknown revenue for 1996-97.

As the honourable member and I and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) discussed during the process of the Estimates, there is no question but that the federal government's contributions to health care, education and social services generally are declining and declining, unfortunately, more than we would like to see happen.

However, that is happening. The Health Sciences Centre knows it. I cannot be responsible for certain unfortunate comments made yesterday by a representative of the Health Sciences Centre. I disagree with some of those comments, and the quality of care for patients remains the priority of the government of Manitoba.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister saying that they are not responsible for advising the Health Sciences Centre to make major cuts in their budget for '96-97 and that they are not responsible for the highest waiting list for cardiac surgery in the country, they are not responsible for the deteriorating quality of care?

Is the minister saying that it is not his responsibility that all of this is happening in our health care sector and that they are going to go on with business as usual, and we are going to let our hospital services deteriorate even more, Madam Speaker? Is that what the minister is saying?

Mr. McCrae: I am not saying that at all, Madam Speaker, quite the reverse. I am saying that I and my colleagues are responsible for spending in health care at the highest level anywhere in this country, and we are pleased to be able to say that, but that does not mean to say that challenges do not remain, thanks to the lethargic reaction of federal governments to the problems they have faced for a number of years and only now are deciding to do something about it.

It creates a very, very significant challenge for us as a government and for hospitals throughout this country. I read today in the newspaper, for example, that the only children's hospital in Newfoundland is closing, as well as two other hospitals. That is just added to the growing list of what is going on in other areas of this country.

By starting when we did on health care renewal in Manitoba and by making very, very careful decisions and by moving early on in the process, Health Sciences Centre is attempting to do that. We are trying to keep patient care the No. 1 priority and make the disruptions in the health care system--keep them to the barest minimum.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister: Is the minister saying, therefore, that the Health Sciences Centre officials who made this comment are going off on their own and are doing their own thing and are cutting the quality of care, and it has not been under the direction of this government?

Is the minister saying that they are doing this on their own without any direction or recognition from this government? Is that what the minister is saying today?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the Health Sciences Centre, like other institutions across this country and in Manitoba--we are not exempt from this--are looking at the difficult challenges that are being placed upon us by the federal Liberal government in Ottawa. That is what is happening. We have not directed anything for 1996-97.

But, as I say, for this fiscal year, our Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) in November of last year, the earliest date that this has ever been done, advised the hospitals of what they could expect by way of budget allocations for hospitals. That gave the hospitals more time to utilize the staff in the hospitals, to seek advice and opinion from the people who work in the hospitals. It is exactly what Health Sciences Centre is doing. The honourable member, I am sure, would agree with that approach, although he seems to want to make some other point here in Question Period today.

The fact is the staff of the hospital are a good source of information. They are the people who are providing, day in, day out, patient care. [interjection]

Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Kildonan says they have no choice. Well, the honourable member, is he suggesting that at 34 percent of budget here in Manitoba, the highest level anywhere in the country, a far greater percentage of budget than anything his colleagues in the NDP ever provided for health care in Manitoba, is he saying that is not sufficient?

Freshwater Institute

Downsizing

Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, the federal government has downsized and reduced employment opportunities in this province in many areas. It has come to our attention that the Freshwater Institute at the University of Manitoba is going to be downsized very dramatically. There are some, I believe, 56 employees working there now. My information leads me to believe that they are going to be downsized to about 16 employees.

I wonder whether the Minister of Natural Resources can tell us of any actions or meetings that he is contemplating with the federal government in order to try and convince them that this institute be retained in Manitoba not only as a service to Manitobans and Canadians but recognized worldwide as being an essential part of ensuring our fresh-water and ecosystems be maintained.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, unfortunately I have to confirm the fact that this is what is going to be happening at the Freshwater Institute. I also have to confirm that within my Department of Natural Resources, virtually every element of cost-sharing that we had with the federal government has been totally deleted--more bad messages to come, I believe.

We have raised some concerns, realizing that priorities have to be set. My colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) indicated the concerns we have in that area. But certainly I think that there should have been some dialogue with us in terms of seeing whether we could take and prioritize some of these issues that are going to be very important instead of taking the steps backward.

I will continue to press for that kind of dialogue to take place with my counterparts at the federal level to see whether we can take and get some prioritized good projects still to keep on operating.

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Workforce 2000

Canada Safeway

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education.

Under the Workforce 2000 payroll tax refund for last year, the largest number of employees trained was at Canada Safeway where over 4,000 employees were trained for training costs of $155,000, yet employee representatives are unaware of any new training this past year on that scale.

I want to ask the Minister of Education, is it possible under Workforce 2000 guidelines that a company could use public monies for their existing and regular training programs?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, under Workforce 2000, as I believe the member knows, the way the program works is the proposals are submitted and proposals are examined for appropriateness, for maximum effectiveness, for retraining, for the ability to teach new skills, new technologies and to better improve the employees' opportunities to receive generic transferable skills or to advance in the workplace. Those proposals are all gone through with very strict criteria by the--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education, to complete her response.

Mrs. McIntosh: I was fortunate earlier this week to attend one Workforce 2000 graduation at Boeing Canada, a marvellous event in which the people who were being retrained or upgraded spoke in glowing terms of the opportunities that have now been made available to them. Those kinds of opportunities are the kinds of criteria that are approved for people in the workplace.

Post-Secondary Education

Funding

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): While I am on my feet, two questions were taken as notice. May I provide the responses for those?

There was a question asked earlier this week on our position regarding post-secondary education vis-à-vis comparisons with other places in Canada. I would just like to indicate to the House that in terms of per capita education expenditures in Canada, Manitoba ranks fifth--these are the most recent Statistics Canada things--education expenditures per capita of the labour force, Manitoba ranked fourth; education expenditures as a percentage of the gross domestic product, Manitoba ranked fifth; education expenditures as a percentage of personal income, Manitoba ranked fourth. As well, Madam Speaker, most significant if you take the per pupil expenditures which indicates how much we actually provide for students, Manitoba spends the third highest amount per student or $11,854 per pupil compared to $10,000 for the rest of Canada.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.