PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Proposed Resolutions

Res. 17--Social Assistance and Job Creation

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that

WHEREAS there is an unacceptable number of employable social assistance recipients across the province of Manitoba, with over 15,000 in the city of Winnipeg alone; and

WHEREAS there are over 26,000 social assistance recipients on provincial social assistance, some of whom are employable; and

WHEREAS the cost to individuals in lost earnings, loss of dignity and pride, and the cost to society in the loss of productivity and tax revenue is incalculable; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has closed Human Resource Opportunity Centres and has reduced funding for training programs such as New Careers and Access programs; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has given grants to businesses under the Workforce 2000 program totalling $30 million with little accountability and no job creation component.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba recommend that the provincial government give consideration to creating work for welfare recipients in areas such as environmental cleanup, retrofitting of houses for energy conservation, infill and rehabilitation housing programs, and infrastructure renewal, particularly streets, back lanes and sewer renewal and construction in the city of Winnipeg.

Motion presented.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this resolution is just as timely today as it was when I submitted it for the resolutions' draw at the beginning of this session in May. In fact, my numbers of the number of people who are unemployed were on the low side, deliberately, so I would not be caught out with my facts wrong.

Just to give an update, in the first WHEREAS I said there were 15,000 people on social assistance in the city of Winnipeg. In fact, there are over 16,000 on the city system. That is not persons; it is cases. So there are many more persons who are on the city rolls.

It is important to make a distinction here between those who are employable and unemployable. The City of Winnipeg is responsible in its jurisdiction for employable social assistance recipients. The province is responsible for those who are unemployable and single parents. So in the provincial system it would be true to say that some are employable and some are not.

I have the most recent numbers for those who are on the provincial system. I would like to thank the director of Income Security and the assistant deputy minister for Income Security who on a monthly basis send me statistics. Just today I received the figures for the benefit month of August, I believe. There are 26,249 cases. In fact that means thousands more individuals.

So we know that the problem of unemployment is an extremely serious problem in Winnipeg and Manitoba, although it is much more serious in Winnipeg than in Manitoba because 89 percent of employable social assistance recipients live in the city of Winnipeg. Part of this is due to the pressure that rural municipalities and small towns put on their clients, in many cases forcing them to move to the city of Winnipeg, or even assisting them to move to the city of Winnipeg.

When people on rural municipality assistance request moving costs to move to the city of Winnipeg, R.M. councillors are only too happy to give them their moving costs to move to the city of Winnipeg so that they are not on their local rolls.

As I point out in my resolution, the cost to individuals in lost earnings, the loss of dignity and pride and the cost to society in terms of the loss of productivity and tax revenue, is incalculable. These are very important aspects. All of them.

We know that the vast majority of people do not want to be on social assistance. The vast majority of people want to be in the paid workforce. In fact, a minority of people on social assistance in Manitoba are employable because there are such a large number of people who are disabled and unable to work or whose circumstances may prevent them from working.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is very interesting to look at the statistics of who those people are who are unemployed and what their personal circumstances are. For example, we have repeatedly talked about single parents. I know that the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) also likes to talk about single parents.

If you look at their rates of unemployment and how many of them are on social assistance and particularly how many live below the poverty line--I remember in recent memory it was about 56 percent of single parents were below the poverty line. Now it is well over 70 percent, but it really depends on the age of their children.

For example, the number who are below the poverty line and are on social assistance with children below the age of six is much much higher than the rate for single parents who have children over the age of six. The crucial difference, of course, is that when the children are over the age of six the children are in school. As a result it is much easier for that parent to get into the paid workforce.

Of course, the other thing that makes it much easier for these individuals to get into the paid workforce is if they have subsidized child care. So I think that, if you were to compare single parents with subsidized child care and parents who do not, you would probably find that a higher percentage of those with subsidized child care are in the paid workforce than those who are not.

I have also pointed out that the cost is incalculable of the loss of dignity and pride. I have many of these individuals in my constituency; I talk to them on a regular basis, and I know that people do not want to be on social assistance and that it is demeaning for many of them to be on assistance.

Just today I was talking to the parent of an individual who has MS and is living at home and I presume receiving a partial subsidy. This individual volunteers for a number of organizations, including a school division, and was volunteering in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and spending a regular part of the week volunteering in this department folding letters and stuffing envelopes. It was good for this individual, just as it is good collectively for people on social assistance to volunteer, whether it is for government or nonprofit organizations or churches to be doing this. But when she asked if she could get bus fare, she was told no. I think that is a shame. I think giving bus fare to people who volunteer in government would be a very minor expense but very important to people's self-worth, dignity and even ability to continue volunteering.

In the next WHEREAS, I pointed out that the current provincial government has closed Human Resources Opportunity Centres, including one in Dauphin and one in Selkirk. They have reduced funding for training programs such as New Careers and Access programs.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is very interesting to be here over the cycle of a government. In the case of the current government in the Thirty-fifth Session, we are here for six sessions. At the beginning we heard a lot of criticism from the government about job training programs and job creation under the Howard Pawley NDP government. It was in most of their Throne Speech Debate and their Budget Debate. This government was extremely critical of government attempts at job creation and their line was that government job creation does not work, that the private sector is the engine of growth, and they had all these shibboleths and expressions by way of criticism of the NDP record.

We listened to that for at least four and a half years. Then all of a sudden we were in a pre-election year and we know, of course, that the government was doing a lot of polling. And what did their polling tell them? Their polling told them that unemployment was a No. 1 issue and people wanted government-sponsored job-training programs. So for the year leading up to the election we heard more and more about what the Conservative government was allegedly doing in terms of job creation and job training, such as handing out $30 million to private companies for employee training, money which went to car dealerships and golf courses and many questionable sources with no measurable outcomes whatsoever.

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Of course, when the election rolled around it was in their campaign literature that they believed in job training and they were doing a great job in job training and creating employment because they knew that they had to talk about that to get elected. Most of the people on the other side here are laissez faire Conservatives, they really do not believe in that sort of option unless they absolutely have to because the polls are telling them that it is important to do so. In fact, they discontinued a number of programs that trained people for jobs during the four and a half years of the Thirty-fifth Legislature. I have given just two examples. Meanwhile, at the same time, of course they had the Tory version of job creation which was Workforce 2000 and training people who already had jobs but in the private sector, many of them companies and individuals who had donated money to the Conservative Party of Manitoba.

So in my THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED I have recommended that the provincial government give consideration to creating work for welfare recipients and I have given a number of examples. In the area of environmental cleanup, we know that there are many things that could be done by way of environmental cleanup. Speaking of the environment, there are already excellent programs, particularly at the level of the City of Winnipeg. I have their report here. In fact, one of my constituents is in this report. I plan to get him a copy and send it to him because there are pictures here of people who have been part of the City of Winnipeg employment programs.

An Honourable Member: You should table that.

Mr. Martindale: Well, if I had an extra copy I would table it. It is called Working. It was written by the city's Social--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Just for a point of clarification for the honourable member--I have stopped your time, your time is still going to carry on--when you had read the resolution into the record, I might have misunderstood you, but the number that is on the resolution is 26,000. I notice there was a penned in number on your resolution of 26,949. I think I understood you to say 26,949. If the member was attempting to amend his resolution, he has to amend it at a previous time. He cannot just hand it in with that figure on it. So the 26,000 is the figure that will stand on this resolution.

The honourable member for Burrows to continue, and I apologize for that.

Point of Order

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I could make this a point of order, I did not intend and will not be amending the resolution. I was going to use that as speaking notes. I forgot that I had to hand it in.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable member for that.

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Mr. Martindale: In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was quoting from correspondence from the Assistant Deputy Minister of Family Services and the actual figure is 26,269 cases of people on provincial social assistance. I am using not my numbers but the government's numbers here, an astonishing number of people on provincial social assistance.

Continuing with my description of this city's Social Services' document called Working, they describe many of their programs. One of the reasons why we have concerns about the provincial government taking over the city's Social Services is that I think they probably have more job creation and training programs than the province does. If I am wrong, I stand corrected. They have many excellent programs, and one of them is the Dutch Elm Disease Control Program--and the provincial government made a grant towards that--whereby people on social assistance have been hired in this excellent program. At the end of the program many of them got jobs with the City of Winnipeg and with private companies, for example, nurseries and tree pruning companies. I remember one year they hired heads of households of large families, families with many children, and the cost of subsidizing this was actually cheaper than the cost of social assistance for those families.

That was only one example. Of course, there is the Winnipeg infrastructure. There is the demonstration employment project. There is community home services, many excellent programs that the city's Social Services runs that this minister is familiar with. We think there are many things that people on social services who are employable could be doing. Other examples are retrofitting of houses for energy conservation. The carpenters union of Manitoba has submitted proposals whereby people could be doing this. As we know, many energy conservation programs are very cost effective because they pay back the cost of the program in terms of savings very quickly and infrastructure renewal, we think that there are many more things that can be done under infrastructure renewal.

We think that the kind of money that would have been committed or that was committed by this government to a questionable project like the arena could be redirected towards sewers and streets and sidewalks, that that would have been much more beneficial to the citizens of Winnipeg and the individuals who are employed than putting $37 million or $60 million of provincial money towards a questionable project like the arena.

So I encourage this government to take seriously this resolution and to come forward with many more job creation programs than they are doing now. Thank you.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to, at the outset, thank my honourable friend for bringing this resolution to the floor of the Legislature for some debate. I think when we look at the intent and the first three WHEREASes of this resolution, I heartily agree and I will just repeat and put into the record the substance of the first WHEREAS, where it says, there are an unacceptable number of employable social assistance recipients across the province of Manitoba, with over 15,000 in the city of Winnipeg alone. I do not disagree with that comment or that WHEREAS, the intent of it.

We believe on this side of the House, in government, that indeed we have to do something to address the inordinately high number of unemployable social assistance recipients across the province of Manitoba and indeed in the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is exactly what we have been trying to do and will continue to do. I would think that my honourable friend might be very pleasantly surprised with some of the new initiatives and some of the new thrusts that our government will be taking and has indeed undertaken over the last period of time to try to ensure that those who have the ability to work do indeed have the opportunity to seek employment through some of the very positive initiatives that have been undertaken.

I noticed in my honourable friend's comments around some of the city programs or initiatives that have been undertaken that indeed there are some very good programs in place that do provide the opportunity for some work experience for those who are on our social assistance rolls, one of them of course being the Dutch elm disease program that we heartily supported and endorsed and in fact cost-share with the City of Winnipeg because we believe that is a good program. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have no intention of cancelling that kind of program.

I think it is important that we do not reinvent the wheel. If, in fact, there is something that is working, benefiting the community and also providing the work opportunity for those who need that experience, we want to ensure that those kinds of things, those kinds of projects are continued.

One of the other programs that we support and endorse wholeheartedly is the Community Home Service project that is run by the City of of Winnipeg. Indeed, they thought it was such a valuable program that they implemented or instituted it on their own and came to us, as a province, and showed us that there were many positive outcomes as a result of that program, so two years ago, through the budget process, we enhanced and doubled that program and put provincial resources into it. Because it had a proven track record, we asked the federal government to come on board and possibly provide some additional support. They refused to get involved in the project, but we, on our own as a province, doubled the size of the program that the City of Winnipeg was running.

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We believe that it is an excellent program, that it has indeed created an opportunity for those that are living in their own homes and need support; namely, many seniors in our community have had the benefit of work done around their homes to help them to stay in their homes and contribute to their community, so we believe there has been a win-win on both sides. It is a program that we wholeheartedly support, and we would want to see some form of program like that continue into the future.

When we look at bringing the welfare program together under the provincial government, this is not an exercise in trying to create more hassle and more problems, more aggravation for those that are on social allowances, but it is indeed a desire on our behalf to streamline and reduce the overlap and duplication that does exist between the two levels of government delivering the same sort of program, and indeed ensure that the dollars that are needed for those that are most in need in our community go to those people directly in the form of the ability to create a work experience or an opportunity.

What we do not want to do is continue to have two bureaucracies, two sets of offices, two different computer systems that are dealing with social allowance recipients. We think this is an excellent way to test a new way of delivering service so that the overlap and the duplication that presently exists is set aside and that our priority goes to trying to ensure that those who need our assistance and want to enter the workforce and be productive members of society do have that opportunity.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, another program that we participated in was the last infrastructure program for street renewal in the city of Winnipeg. It was a three-level-of-government initiative: federal, provincial and city. One of the criteria that we wanted inserted in that infrastructure program was the opportunity to hire social allowance recipients to do some of the work that was required, and we were very successful. I think the report that did come out from the City of Winnipeg did indicate that indeed there were those that were on social allowance that had families that were the benefactors, indeed, of jobs through the infrastructure program.

Some of the other initiatives that we have undertaken as a government are very positive in respect to trying to find the opportunity for those that have been on social allowance for a period of time, provide that opportunity for them to gain some work experience. The Rural Jobs Project, for instance, where we, again, it is a partnership between the municipalities and towns, cities in rural Manitoba and the provincial government, I have to say with some disappointment: the first year we announced the program, which was in the last budget year, we did have participation from the federal government in the program; this past year they have withdrawn their support and their funding for the Rural Jobs Project.

We felt that it was important enough for us to continue funding the Rural Jobs Project. It has moved a little more slowly than we would have liked or anticipated, but in fact the municipalities and we are co-operating. In rural Manitoba, a lot of the municipalities, the City of Brandon, the City of Thompson have indeed hired social allowance recipients to do work in their municipalities. We have contributed half of the salary cost to those jobs.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have also participated in opportunities with the private sector in rural Manitoba where we have provided a wage subsidy of $2 an hour for anyone in the private sector that hired a social allowance recipient to do work. We are prepared and committed to continue that kind of a process because we believe that there are many out there, given the opportunity, who want to participate in a meaningful way to their community and to our society.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Speaker, in the Chair)

Mr. Acting Speaker, Taking Charge! is another initiative that we have undertaken. I would like to spend a few moments just bringing members of the Legislature up to speed on what has taken place. There was an announcement made last September, and we are now a year away from that announcement and there has been a lot that has happened.

What we put in place was a community board that looked at finding community solutions and working in partnership with government to ensure that single parents whom we have labelled as unemployable in the past--[interjection] Well, I hear some chirping from the other side of the House. What I do want to say very clearly is that we as a government believe that single parents are as employable as any other member of our society and that many of them do want the opportunity to work and the opportunity to contribute in a very positive manner to the quality of life of themselves, their families and their children.

Mr. Acting Speaker, we want to be a part of finding some of the solutions in a way to help single parents out of poverty and into successful jobs and opportunities for the future, and that is exactly what Taking Charge! is all about.

Mr. Acting Speaker, we have now a community board of nine people in place that has hired an executive director and is in the process of initiating opportunities and needs assessment for single parents in the city of Winnipeg. They are in the process now of negotiating their lease, and their office will be opened up very shortly. A lot of groundwork, a lot of legwork has been done in trying to bring together--

Point of Order

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): On a point of order, I am just wondering if, either now or at the conclusion of the minister's remarks, she would entertain a question.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Dyck): On the point of order, it is up to the minister who is speaking in order to entertain that question. It is her prerogative to do that.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Absolutely, I would be prepared to entertain a question because I would want all members of the Legislature to have all of the information available to them around--I would presume it is around the Taking Charge! initiative, and, if it is not, I am prepared to answer any question that my honourable friend might want to raise and try to give her full and factual information.

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Mrs. Mitchelson: Anyway, thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. As I was saying, the Taking Charge! initiative is alive and well. We do have much of the community--and, as I am out speaking to members of the community, whether they be volunteer organizations, service clubs, churches, the business community, everyone is keen and excited to become involved and to help support, in whatever possible, those that need individual support and mentorship through the process, so I am quite excited that we are going to see major positive results in the very near future.

I see that my light is flashing, and I would like to, before I get to the end of my time, make an amendment to the resolution and then entertain, by leave, I guess, if it is going to take more than my allocated time--have some time after my 15 minutes to answer the question.

(Madam Speaker in the Chair)

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I would like to move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe),

THAT the resolution be amended by deleting all the words after the third WHEREAS and replacing them with the following:

WHEREAS the government of Manitoba is concerned about the growing number of welfare recipients and in the costs both to individuals of lost earnings, dignity and pride and the cost to society of untapped potential in participating in the economic and social life of our provice; and

WHEREAS the government of Manitoba has taken steps through initiatives within Making Welfare Work to help provide work and work experience to employable welfare recipients; and

WHEREAS the government of Manitoba is committed to continuing its proactive approach to Making Welfare Work.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba support the ongoing work of the provincial government in helping welfare recipients back to work.

Madam Speaker: I will take the amendment under advisement.

Ms. Cerilli: I have a question for the minister. I wonder if she can explain and clarify if there was indeed about $30 million that went to the Workforce 2000 program from the Student Social Allowances Program and the Access program and how this transfer of money of $30 million from those programs to the workforce program which went to industry actually is helping people on social allowance get training and find jobs.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Is there leave to permit the Minister of Family Services to respond to the question? [agreed]

Mrs. Mitchelson: As the program Workforce 2000 falls under the Ministry of Education, and I know that there were many hours of debate and discussion around the Estimates of the Department of Education just in the spring, I would hope that my honourable friend had had the opportunity to pose those questions to the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) and get full and factual responses back from her. If she did not avail herself of that opportunity, it was a missed opportunity in fact to find out what is happening in the Department of Education and in Workforce 2000.

I do not have the detailed information as the Minister of Family Services around Workforce 2000 to answer the specifics of her question, and I would encourage her very strongly to raise those questions if she did not take the opportunity through the Estimates process to do that with the Minister of Education. I would encourage her to sit down with her or ask those questions of her very quickly to try to get the answers.

Ms. Cerilli: A point of clarification. Realizing that the Workforce 2000 program is in the Department of Education--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Radisson, this is not a time for questions. This is debate time. Our rules are very explicit, that the member can speak only once to the debate items, and by doing this, you are promoting debate between two members and it contravenes the rules of the House. The minister indicated she would be prepared to reply to a question. Leave was granted for that explicit purpose.

Now, I will recognize the honourable member for Radisson if she wishes to speak to the resolution. No.

The honourable member for Swan River.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, my colleague from Radisson had some very good questions, and I had hoped that we would have the ability to get answers to those questions as the minister had agreed to answer questions. Since they have not, I would like to commend my colleague from Burrows for putting this resolution forward because it does raise a very important issue, that being the high number of people who are unemployed in this province, people who would very much like to go to work but, because there is no opportunity for them to work, end up being on social assistance.

My colleague refers to the number in the city of Winnipeg, but there are many of these people in rural Manitoba too who have become trapped in a system and certainly are not happy with what has happened to them. They certainly take no pride in having to resort to going onto social assistance, but, as I say, they have become trapped.

For these people to get off the system, we have to be able to provide them with the opportunity to get some additional training or provide them with opportunities for work. My colleague has listed in this resolution many opportunities, but we see that under this government those opportunities for retraining have been taken away from the people. I look, in particular, at programs such as New Careers and Access.

As I relate those to my own constituency, I know many people who were previously on social assistance, many single mothers who had not had the ability to complete their education, but who through Access have been able to upgrade themselves. In the Duck Mountain, Frontier School Division in my area, there are many teachers in the area who are setting an excellent role model for the other people in the community who got their training through Access and other such programs. It is unfortunate that these programs have been reduced to the point where there is very little opportunity for people to get training and for people to get their pride instilled back in them and for people to play a contributing role in society.

I regret very much that those training opportunities have been taken away from the people of all of Manitoba, but we talk about other programs that could be--there are many places that the government could invest in and improve the quality of life of people by creating work for welfare recipients. Certainly, in the area of environmental cleanup, there is much that can be done, but I look at some programs that could apply to rural Manitoba and programs that were in place under the previous government.

There was a program that allowed for river cleanup, and, Madam Speaker, for anybody that is familiar with rural Manitoba, you know that we have a very serious problem with debris in rivers. This would be a project that would not require very much training because, as I look at the people in my constituency, many of them have skills that they have learned in working in the bush. They would be very capable of doing the work of cleaning up these rivers, and it would be a great benefit to the community. It would also be a job creation for the people, and it would be a benefit. We would be getting a service provided, and people would be feeling very good about themselves.

I look at another area that causes an awful lot of problems in rural Manitoba, and that is the whole issue of beaver control. There was an opportunity for this government to address that problem. They did put some money in place for the program, but it is my understanding that either they have pulled back the funds on that program or the funds have been spent.

Certainly there were people who could have been hired to address this very, very serious problem, and it would be a benefit to the people of the area, particularly the farming community. Municipal councils are having to pick up costs, and there is a lot of environmental damage because these issues are not being addressed. This government appears more interested in turning money over to large corporations and companies under Workforce 2000, where you see that a total of $30 million having been spent--was turned over to corporations. But, certainly, I do not see any benefit of those programs, particularly to the people of rural Manitoba, absolutely no benefit at all.

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Madam Speaker, we certainly would like to see this government take more action and look at some of the suggestions that have been put forward in this resolution to allow for more job creation. We would like to see this government reconsider some of the decisions they have made, particularly with cutbacks to programs such as the New Careers and Access.

I want to say that the closure of the Human Resource Opportunity Centres created a serious impact in rural Manitoba, because these were resource centres that helped people who through no fault of their own end up in a situation where they end up on social assistance and want to be working but they cannot.

So I would hope that the government would reconsider and reinstate some of the programs that they had, in particular programs for single mothers and supports that would allow them to have the resources to continue their education and play a role in society and certainly help them to regain their dignity.

I know the government has put forward one project in rural Manitoba, the Rural Jobs Project, which helps pick up some of the costs of salaries for municipalities, but I think that the government should really revisit that program. When you look at the numbers in 1994-95, only 24 welfare recipients got employment under this program. There appear to be problems with the program that certainly should be addressed.

I would very much like to see the government look at job creation in rural Manitoba. Those people who are unemployed in rural Manitoba in most cases want to stay there, but getting social assistance from rural municipalities is sometimes very difficult and people are very much encouraged to leave the area and move to Winnipeg or other larger centres. This does not address the problem. In fact, Madam Speaker, when people who are from rural Manitoba end up being in Winnipeg, they are not used to the city way of life and it ends up that their problems are compounded.

So I think that we have to look at ways of getting people off social assistance, both in the city of Winnipeg and other communities and also in rural Manitoba. We have to look at job creation. We have to be willing to invest in the people who live throughout the province and in northern Manitoba as well where we have some of the highest unemployment rates. This government should be looking at giving the people the opportunity to get the training that they need, giving them the opportunity to work and contribute and play a meaningful role in our society.

As has been outlined in this resolution, there is a lot of work that can be done. There are many communities in northern Manitoba, in rural Manitoba who do not, for example, have sewer and water services. It is a known fact that these are areas whereby starting up a sewer and water project you could have a lot of construction jobs that would help people and it would certainly improve the quality of life. That is something else that we should be very concerned about as we are looking at job creation and ways of getting people back to work.

Certainly we have to start working to protect and enhance our environment, and there are many opportunities as well that the government could be investing in and encouraging people and providing them with the training that they need. It is a disgrace to have such high numbers in a province such as Manitoba, to have this many people who are employable on social assistance. It does not set a good example and it does not lead to a good quality of life, particularly when you look at the amount of money that these people have to live on. They would much rather be working. The government has to look at putting in place the resources to encourage these people back to work, giving them the opportunity, doing job creation, meaningful job creation, Madam Speaker, that will enhance the quality of life in the community. Those are the things we have to work for.

I want to again emphasize that many of the people I know that are on social assistance, and there are many people in my constituency who are on social assistance, the majority of these people who are able do want to work. They do not enjoy being where they are. They do not enjoy having to wait for the end of the month to come for them to get a cheque. They want to be contributing to society. They want to have the opportunity to enhance their quality of life. Many of them have been caught in a system where they drop out of school at an early age. They do not have the skills that they need. If we believe in our society, we will give these people the opportunity to get the skills that they need and allow them to be contributors to society.

I support this resolution, and I hope that the members across the way will recognize its merit and also support it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Point of Order

Mr. Martindale: My point of order is that private members' hour is intended for private members to speak, and my understanding of private members is that it is all of us who are not members of Executive Council, so I find it unusual that a cabinet minister would speak in private members' hour.

I am wondering if you could either advise me of the rules or your understanding of private members' hour or take it under advisement and get back to the House at a future time. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order, the honourable member for Burrows does not have a point of order.

I have been informed the Manitoba tradition is that private members' hour is indeed for all members of the Assembly, and it is matters that are related to Private Members' Business.

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Mr. Mike Radcliffe (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I rise this afternoon in support of the amendment of the honourable minister on this case, and I think it is important to point out at this juncture--

Madam Speaker: I would remind the honourable member for River Heights that he should not be speaking to the amendment--the amendment was taken under advisement and has not been dealt with--but should be speaking to the main motion.

Mr. Radcliffe: I was just making reference to that, Madam Speaker, but, in fact, I would like to point out to the Assembly this afternoon that the government of Manitoba makes common cause with Her Majesty's honourable opposition in some of the preamble today. We, too, find it unacceptable that anybody should be unemployed. I want to make that point succinct and very clear that one of the major goals of this government is to make sure that an environment is provided in this province whereby everyone who is so inclined can seek employment and can find employment. We, too, are very aware of the importance of the dignity of work. We join cause with our honourable friends across the floor in the concept that everybody should have a job and where we differ of course is in the means of providing this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, the government of Manitoba has a proven track record right now as to what we have done in providing jobs for the people of Manitoba. We have one of the lowest unemployment levels in this country of Canada and the reason for that is that we have provided an opportunity, we have provided an environment where the people who best know how to create jobs have come to Manitoba. Therein is the essential point where we disagree with the honourable members across the floor.

The honourable members across the floor persist in taking social policies which create dependency upon the vulnerable members of our society. The government of Manitoba takes the perspective and this party takes the perspective that we will create the environment for people to find employment. We will draw people to Manitoba who can create employment. We will assist business to create jobs. Government in itself does not make work.

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All these programs that the honourable members from the opposition were making reference to earlier have the net effect and one net underriding effect is creating dependency, building a bigger bureaucracy, whereas, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to advise this House and the honourable members this afternoon that Workforce 2000, which is giving assistance or giving stimulation to people in business to employ more members out of the workforce, has for the period ending July 31, 1995, a total increase of 1,189 employees trained or committed to train between the month of July 31 and the month of August 31.

That is remarkable that the public money of this province is becoming that effective. This is not now just a feckless handout to people who consume but rather this is creating an initiative so that these people can become productive members. This is again an example how this government is listening truly to the needs of the people of Manitoba. We are responding with needs-driven policy for our people in Manitoba.

The honourable minister was reviewing a number of other initiatives that this government has started and is co-operating with other levels of government, but the fundamental, underlying, philosophical policy which cannot be underestimated must be that government does not create work. We will make an environment where business people will come to Manitoba. It will be an environment where people will want to live here, where people will want to raise their families, where people will want to do business.

We have seen in the last two weeks where there was a new initiative, a new corporation, opening business in Portage la Prairie. This is going to be taking people off the streets of Manitoba; this is going to be taking people and putting them to useful employment.

We saw last weekend where there was another announcement in the newspaper where there is a prospect in the Department of Agriculture where there will be a greater hog-processing facility in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, this is what will make Manitoba grow.

An Honourable Member: Hogs and potatoes.

Mr. Radcliffe: Hogs and potatoes. These are the fundamentals of our province. [interjection] I hear some verbiage kind of floating, wafting, across the House, but I can assure this Chamber that these sort of concepts are the future for our province.

The whole concept of making Manitoba a hub for transportation and distribution of goods has endless possibilities. I can assure Madam Speaker and the honourable members of the opposition today that our industry, trade and commerce is working hard to ensure that this is not just a dream but is being put into actuality.

There is an old adage, Madam Speaker, and I would repeat it today, that if you give a person a fish you feed them for a day. You teach that person to fish, you have fed them for their lifetime. That has to be one of the fundamentals of our initiative.

Now I would like to draw a little attention to the aspersions that have been levelled against this government in the preambles presented by our honourable friends. I would suggest that in fact the records should be straightened out.

One preamble says, whereas the provincial government has closed Human Resources Opportunity Centres and has reduced funding for training programs such as New Careers and Access. I would point out to this House and to the honourable members here that there was over $20 million put into New Careers in Manitoba since 1988, and what have we to show for it?

Whereas, Madam Speaker, if we have people coming to Manitoba to do business, we want to say emphatically in this Chamber, on the streets of our cities and in the byways and highways of our province, that Manitoba is open for business. We want Manitoba to be a hub of this continent. We are geographically located in an ideal situation. We want to attract people to be here. We have a skilled workforce. We do not deny for a moment, as do some of the members of the honourable opposition, that some of the people who are on relief, many of the people who are on relief, are desperately looking for work. Instead of perpetuating that situation of dependency, this government and this minister and our government are taking active steps to change that reality.

An Honourable Member: More fishermen.

Mr. Radcliffe: More fishermen, absolutely.

An Honourable Member: More potato growers.

Mr. Radcliffe: More potato growers.

We are getting actual results, Madam Speaker, and the people of Manitoba will have recognized this situation and have exercised their choice because they know that their future lies with this government. This government is putting Manitoba to work. Our statistics of employment indicate this reality.

One point that this motion of my learned friend or of my honourable friend has indicated--

An Honourable Member: Not learned.

Mr. Radcliffe: Not learned. Well, I do not know how learned he is but--sorry, that was the last forum in which I had the opportunity to speak, Madam Speaker. The honourable member--[interjection] That is right--has said that we have reduced the funding and we have closed the New Careers and Access programs whereas I would point out to this House that in fact the Access program is still functioning. It is on a limited basis, and it is functioning in northern Manitoba. I am pleased to advise this Chamber today that graduates projected to graduate and complete the programs for the Access program in 1995-96 will be 160 graduates.

I would confirm that these graduates--now an interesting point and then I shall retire with the confirmation and the sure assurance that this motion will be interpreted with the slant that the Madam Minister has presented. Again, we do not want to be creating jobs making square pegs for round holes. That is the last thing in the world that we should be doing. The only way that we can be assured that the people that we are training and the people that we are supporting in this province are going to be employed is if we have it needs driven through the people who best know what jobs are required. Those people are the businessmen and the businesswomen of Manitoba. Those are the people who will be creating jobs and future employment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to address these few humble words to this topic, which I think is very essential to our future. If this concept is not fulfilled, then the future of Manitoba will be very dire. We will then become a province and a population where jobs will decrease, where everybody will be resorting to the attitude of, well, we have to look to government to cure all the problems. Government cannot be considered as the panacea, as the cure-all. In fact--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for River Heights will have two minutes remaining.

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The hour being 5 p.m., as previously agreed, we will now proceed to consider Resolution 18, Student Loan. Resolution 19. In accordance with Rule 22.(4), Where the resolution of a member, other than a resolution for an Order for Return or an Address for Papers, is reached for the first time on the Order Paper during private members' hour, if the member is not present, or does not proceed with the resolution at that time, the resolution shall be placed on the Order Paper at the bottom of the list of resolutions of that type.

Res. 19--Professional and Technical Accreditation

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I move this Resolution 19, seconded by the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale),

WHEREAS human beings, considered as any country's most important resource, are not merely a material factor of production but are instrumental to achieving nontangible values of fairness, freedom and individual self-actualization; and

WHEREAS recent immigrants to Canada and to Manitoba tend to possess higher than average levels of education and skills that contribute to the enrichment of the Canadian diversity essential to securing a position of competitiveness in a global economy; and

WHEREAS there are some new Canadians who settled in Manitoba and elsewhere in Canada who brought with them professional and technical education, skills and training which they are unable to use in Manitoba or elsewhere in Canada; and

WHEREAS there are institutionalized social structures in Manitoba and in Canada of vested self-interested and self-governing groups of professional and technical persons who collectively are exercising almost absolute autonomy to the extent that the federal, provincial and municipal levels of government have practically abdicated the inherent public regulatory power of the Crown over the education, training, internship, admission, disciplining and other related processes connected with the creation, empowerment and operations of professional and technical associations, societies and organizations; and

WHEREAS the utilization of the professional and technical education, skills and training of new Canadians would, without many social costs, be immediately beneficial to Canada in general and to the province of Manitoba in particular.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider implementing an enlightened policy of formal recognition and accreditation in meritorious cases of the professional and technical education, skills and training brought into Canada by new Canadians; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly ask the provincial government to consider holding public hearings to elicit the opinions and views of Manitobans, including new Canadians, on the desirability of forming formal governmental accreditation and licensing boards for each of the new self-governing professional and technical associations, societies and organizations, the boards of which should have membership drawn from the respective and related professional and technical groupings, the provincial government, and lay members of the general public to ensure that members of such boards will be trustees of the general public interest of all, instead of being privileged guardians of vested, self-governing groups.

Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Broadway, seconded by the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), Resolution 19.

WHEREAS human beings, considered as any country's most important resource, are not merely a material--

An Honourable Member: Where is the member for Burrows?

An Honourable Member: I will be the seconder.

Mr. Santos: The seconder will now be the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway).

Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Broadway, seconded by the honourable member for Elmwood, resolution, WHEREAS human beings, considered as any country's--Dispense.

An Honourable Member: Read it again, please.

Mr. Santos: WHEREAS human beings, considered as any country's most important resource, are not merely a material factor of production, but are instrumental to achieving nontangible values of fairness, freedom and individual self-actualization; and

If I may go on to the THEREFORE, Madam Speaker?

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider implementing an enlightened policy of formal recognition and accreditation in meritorious cases of the professional and technical education, skills and training brought into Canada by new Canadians--

An Honourable Member: You do not have to reread it. Go to your speech.

Mr. Santos: Okay, I was advised to go right into the heart of the matter.

The present system is a system of self-governing groups. They determine and they have a say in the recruitment in the education, in the admission, in the monitoring of their activities by themselves because the government had abdicated the power to regulate these professional groups by granting them a self-governing system.

What happens, Madam Speaker, when the system is by a self-governing group with their own special interest to protect? It is, first of all, productive of criminal, illegal, illegal, immoral behaviour. [interjection] True.

This is a case of a member of the medical association. I would not name him for purposes of courtesy, but there is a plastic surgeon acquitted of sexually assaulting a patient while under anesthesia, but then because he was acquitted, there is a universal justice, as you know. He is now paralyzed in hospital after falling off the roof of his mother's house while doing repair. He was cleared by the professional group, but then there is the natural universal justice that had to intervene, and he has suffered his due penalty.

That is case No. 1. That is the medical people, the most powerful group in Canada as far as I can see. They were the ones instrumental in preventing measures that will regulate the practice of medicine which is important to the health and well-being of Canadian people.

The second most important group are those who interpret the law: the lawyers. This is the Winnipeg Free Press of September 16, 1995: Brandon lawyer pleads guilty to stealing $25,000 from clients. Whatever happened, he took from his client. He is a trustee who violated his trust.

But that is nothing compared to another member of that profession. There was, for example, this $630,000 fraud by a lawyer/broker who worked in one local law firm in 1988, when a clerical error was made listing 10-million-yen bonds as if they were $10 million. With inflated bonds, a collateral, he obtained $2.2-million line of credit to slay the stock market.

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These are illegal, immoral and criminal behaviours because they regulate themselves. There is no one looking over their shoulder, they decide who is guilty, who is not, but because of fraternity and common value, they protect one another.

So what happens? We have our own Law Reform Commission, and they made a report on regulating the professions and the occupations. It is--where credit is due, I give the credit. The then Minister of Justice, the Honourable Jim McCrae, initiated this. So what are the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission? Let me summarize, and then I will make comments as I go along.

They recommended that at least one-third of the governing council of the self-governing body should be composed of members of the public who are nonpractitioners; in other words, who are not within the camaraderie of self-interested people.

As well, at least one-third of the members of all the committee should be made up of members of the public. I think that is a good recommendation. But what was the reaction of those people who are affected? Let us hear them. What did the medical people say? [interjection] Oh, they did not say anything here, but it is the medical people. They say, doctors, this has already been implemented. They already include at least one public representative in their committee. That is nominal representation. It means nothing--insignificant. The Certified General Accountants Association of Manitoba say they already have lay people on their boards and then they made a comment, to make one-third of the board made up of lay people is too much, so they also want a nominal representation of the board, somebody whom they can always overrule, overturn and ignore. That is no good at all.

The second recommendation is that the meeting should be open to the public and the public should have access to the minutes of meetings. This recommendation is also good because the public can attend the meetings, the general meeting of any organized group, of any professional group. In fact, not only the professional associations are doing this, right now, I think it was last Thursday the board of governors of the University of Manitoba for the first time in history held an open meeting and accepted members of the public in their meeting.

The third, the certification and licensing should be considered for use in situations where harm results from incompetence or unethical behaviour on the part of the practitioner. You see, you wait until harm results until you do something about it--no good. It is like refusing to put a traffic light at an intersection which is so busy such that they will wait until somebody dies before they put the light on. That is not good at all. That is bad. The idea is to prevent the undoing, to prevent the damage, to prevent the unethical behaviour, not to wait until harm is done to any member of the public.

Neither certification nor licensing should be implemented unless their benefits exceed their costs. Now this is the bottom line again. They always look at the resources of the group, whether they can have the resources that will be needed in order to govern themselves. If they do not have the resources to govern themselves, they will not be allowed self-governance--unfair, because only the rich groups, the powerful groups, the economically privileged groups are the ones able to qualify. The power to administer a licensing or certification regime should be delegated to a practitioner only when it is in the public interest and not merely because the practitioner desired this power. Who determined who or what is in the public interest? They will determine it themselves. How can that be? So it is not a good recommendation when the nature of the public interest, whether it is in the special interest or in the public interest, is a basic issue that will be decided by the group themselves.

Next, the qualities needed to sustain self-regulation in the public interests are adequate human and financial resources, a democratic structure, a genuine and demonstrated willingness to act in the public interest. So the required three things are financial adequacy, democratic structure, and willingness to act in the public interest.

The first is again discriminatory because it only works in favour of the well-vested, rich, powerful group. The second requirement is democratic structure. That is good because then it applies the nature of democratic process, the rule of majority and other rules of majority and democratic system of government; namely, the rule of the majority and that the minority should submit to the decision of the majority.

But the last one, willingness to act in the public interest, they will always say, we are willing, of course. That is not a good test. It is subjective. It is self-interest determined, and willingness is not enough. I would say it should be proven capacity to behave according to public interest.

Next, each self-governing group should develop preventive measures that attempt to ensure the practitioner remain competent and ethical. How can that be unless you have a continuing training program, continuing upgrading, and that it is a requirement that those who are already in the old line of training in the profession should be allowed and should be required to take upgrading courses?

They should be subjected, like drivers, to constant, periodic review of their capacity to drive; otherwise, they will still be governed by the old rules of the old boys network, and they determine who enters into the profession.

It is a well-known fact in life that access to this ruling elite is determined by the very members themselves who preserve their own monopoly of the profession and exclude all the rest in society that are not to their best interests.

So I would like to say that the resolution is very modest in what it is asking. The resolution is simply asking for a public hearing so that the views of the public can be aired, so that the public will be aware of all these machinations and favouritisms and discriminations and exclusions that are taking place behind the aura of committees and committee hearings that are not always publicized.

Therefore, it will be to the best interest of the people in general, particularly those people who are excluded from exercising their skills and their training and their profession as citizens of this country, regardless of whether they are natural born or not.

This system, the present system is, as I have said, productive of illegal, immoral and criminal behaviour. That has been proven again, again and again. That cannot be prevented. By human nature we are all selfish. People are selfish by human nature, especially if they are governed by material considerations in life like their means of livelihood, their economic and social opportunities.

They would like to exclude anybody who shall compete on equal terms. They can do this institutionally by passing laws and legislation like self-regulating acts. A foundation to establish this group as an institutional group, that can be done, and it has been done. As you know, when there is a conflict between private special particularistic interest in the broad general public interest, we always know, almost always, the special vested private interests will win over the general public interests. I know of no case where the general public interests win because the majority are not aware of what is going on. They have no information, and they do not know, but the special public, especially if they are working toward the economic monopoly of a profession, they will be very vibrant and very vigilant in protecting the interests of the group to the extent that they will even, I would say, cover up some of the things that should be made public.

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Another general observation that we can say is that no person or group who is enjoying privileges and are able to exclude members of the public to participate in the special privileges that they enjoy, no one, no group will willingly reform themselves so that they will be fair to the rest of the general public in the same way that no one will willingly give up the benefits that they already enjoy. They will not do so unless there is pressure, and the only pressure that can come is from the pressure of public opinion. But the public opinion pressure can only come about if there is extensive hearing as to what is going on, if there is a public airing of all these things that are done in secrecy behind disciplinary committees of various groups and the public airing is nothing but a democratic way of reforming our social system.

Moreover, if they determine who violates and who does not violate their own rules and they themselves make these rules and they themselves interpret these rules and they themselves enforce these rules--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I always enjoy it when the member who just spoke speaks, because he has a very colourful way of using words and some very entertaining and rather dramatic ideas that do cause the listener to sit spellbound on the edge of his or her chair, sometimes wondering what is being said but, oftentimes, admiring the language with which it is said.

I am rather interested in listening to the remarks of the mover of the motion, at the paranoia he seems to feel over the existence of disciplinary bodies and self-governing groups such as the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Association of Professional Engineers and all of the other professional associations and self-governing bodies.

I do not know if he is a part of one himself or if he is a part of one if he feels that he is subject to the same dramatic self-interest or if he would like to see the public take a hearing on whether or not his own particular profession should be treated the way in which he feels other professions should be treated aside from his own, but I would be interested in hearing his view on that. I have a feeling, judging from comments he has made in the past, that he feels his own profession would indeed be perhaps the one exception to the rule he feels exists in being able to be above the immoral, illegal, corrupt and criminal behaviour that exists in all of the self-governing bodies that are in place in Manitoba.

I submit, Madam Speaker, that contrary to the member's implied and expressed opinions, that the term "self-governing" is not a synonym for the term "self-interest." They are not the same term.

I wonder as well if the member is aware in his plea for public participation that the College of Physicians and Surgeons, for example, has laypeople on it. The Association of Professional Engineers has laypeople on it. The wide variety of these particular disciplinary self-governing groups have lay representatives on their boards to bring in an outside objective opinion.

It is against the self-interest of those groups to allow members with lesser standards to continue functioning. I would warrant that for every statistic he can bring forward about immoral, corrupt, illegal, criminal behaviour existing in self-governing bodies that one could also point to the same kind of immoral, illegal, corrupt and criminal behaviour existing in professions which are not self-regulated, and that for every example of corruption, an equal if not bigger number of high standards could also be displayed.

When the member indicates that a physician, for example, has broken his trust and been disciplined, the point that comes through is that the member has been disciplined. Where a member has been found innocent, I think one draws a rather long bow if after a person has been acquitted, we then publicly attribute subsequent physical accidents to God's punishment for the crime of which earthly men have acquitted the individual. The statement made by the member says very clearly that the governing body or the disciplinary committee found the individual innocent, but that God and Conrad Santos, God and the member for Broadway, know he was really guilty. I think that is probably not a very wise thing to put on the record.

I also think that maybe we could extend the thinking, and the member would probably agree with me on this, into this own House and have a self-governing disciplinary committee for the way in which we politicians conduct ourselves in here because we are not always evidencing the loftiest standards of conduct and making the best use of our time.

I have said before, I think sometimes we are in this Chamber absolutely wasting the taxpayers' money. We spend, I think it is, $10,000 a day every day we sit in this Chamber, and for many people out in public, they consider this a chamber of horrors because of the waste of public money that they see, and many have submitted, and I have been one, on occasion, who submitted that this particular exercise makes much noise, signifies nothing and costs the taxpayers $10,000 a day.

I often wonder why they do not rise up in protest that we here in Manitoba drag this process out to an unseemly long time, way longer than other provinces, that we cannot get our legitimate business done in a decent amount of time because we are too busy in this place pontificating and throwing insults back and forth because it is traditional.

I maintain we could do with a self-governing body, and the only ones who can fix us up would be us, because the public is letting us get away with it, year after year, session after session after session.

But to speak directly to the motion's points, I understand what the member is trying to say, and there is some merit in some of the points that have been made. I think they are overstated, and I think the generalizations are too general, but there are points that he has made that are valid, but I submit, Madam Speaker, that those points are being addressed with the current system.

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Notwithstanding the validity of the points he mentions in terms of the ability to subject something to abuse, anything can be subject to abuse, and this, no different than any other, can be subject to abuse, but I do point out that the government's role in this is not to step in and play a more direct role in certification and licensing of professions and trades. We do not have the expertise, for example, in medicine to know if particular actions by a physician are of the standards deemed to be necessary. Those who work in that field do. The expertise and knowledge lie with the professions and trades.

Our role as government is to assure a fair process, and I think this is where the member's concern comes in, a fair process that will reflect the public's interest, and I think this is accomplished by government working in partnership with professional associations and regulating bodies, as is currently the case.

The government, as well, supports the effective and efficient recognition of credentials held by new immigrants. That is why, in response to the member's one concern, this government has commissioned a major study of how recognition of immigrant credentials could be improved. As a result of this study, Madam Speaker, the Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch was established within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship to facilitate immigrant credential processes.

Mmy own department, the Manitoba Education and Training department, works closely with the Immigrant Credentials Branch to improve the immigrant credential recognition process with respect to apprenticeship, college programs and the professions. That Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch assists immigrants in having their educational and professional credentials recognized in Manitoba. The branch works directly with individuals facilitating the accreditation process with the professional associations and with the relevant regulating bodies.

The branch is well versed, Madam Speaker, in the accreditation processes of various associations and has very good working relationships with them. The good working relationship hinges on the confidence of professional associations, on the confidence that those associations have in dealing with only one branch of government. Through the credentials recognition program, the branch provides wage assistance to Manitoba businesses which create full-time employment opportunities for eligible immigrants. These employment opportunities enable clients to obtain Canadian work experience necessary for professional certification.

This program is known to employers who frequently inquire as to whether or not we have clients with specific training and specific education to meet their labour market needs. So we are not ignoring the needs and desires and expressed wishes of newcomers to our land whose training may have taken place under slightly different circumstances but whose credentials may well fit with the ones that we have here.

We have, for use abroad, information sheets which outline the credential processes for about 31 professional associations. Those are being developed here in Manitoba to be available for those coming into the country with specific skills desirous of being certified for work purposes here in this province. That initiative is being expanded upon in the upcoming year, and it will include similar information sheets on the trades in Manitoba. That is a joint initiative being undertaken by the branch and by Apprenticeship and Training.

Government is also working and has been working with the University of Manitoba and Red River Community College to develop a computer model to provide information on accreditation in Manitoba. The credentials assessment assistant will provide individuals with detailed information on the accreditation process for various professions including pathways, time frames and associated costs.

As part of its ongoing work, Madam Speaker, the Immigration Credentials Branch is researching international education systems and gathering information on course outlines from international institutions. That information and that research is shared with professional associations and regulating bodies. In addition to facilitating the credentials process, the branch links immigrants to available training and upgrading programs which will facilitate their entrance into the labour market. Where necessary, the branch works to link persons requiring English second language to appropriate programs. The branch is also co-ordinating an interprovincial conference on credentials. Participants will include provincial government counterparts.

The conference will provide an opportunity to learn what other provinces are doing in this area to determine opportunities for interprovincial initiatives and to facilitate the recognition of international credentials.

It is important to note that Pathways, which is an interactive computer data base outlining the specific steps that individuals with international credentials are required to follow in order to acquire professional certification, was piloted at a meeting of the deputy ministers of Immigration at the Canada High Commission in London, England. The executive directors of The Certified General Accountants Association of Manitoba, Association of Professional Engineers of the Province of Manitoba, Association of Occupational Therapists of Manitoba, the Manitoba Society of Certified Engineering Technicians and Technologists, Inc, federal staff from Human Resources Development Canada have reviewed this model and are interested in developing their career-related information in a similar format.

It is also important to note that this government is focusing on immigrant credentials from a national perspective. For instance, the director of Immigrant Credentials Branch has been appointed to co-chair the federal-provincial access to professions and trades working group established by the deputy ministers of Immigration. The working group is investigating the feasibility of establishing an interprovincial network to facilitate the assessment of international credentials. So I submit, Madam Speaker, that many of the initiatives indicated by the member in his resolution are already being addressed in one way or another.

Is my time up, Madam Speaker? You are indicating it is nearly up. Ten seconds. Thank you very much for the opportunity to put these comments on the record.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to say a few words on this particular resolution. I can somewhat sympathize with the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) in particular with respect to this particular issue because both he and I, no doubt, have had numerous occasions where we have been able to sit down with the people that we are probably most familiar with and when we go to many different events--that is, individuals who are experiencing what the member for Broadway talks about first-hand. So we get to experience a lot of that frustration that many people that come to Canada experience.

I guess, I know in the past, I too have introduced a resolution into this Chamber trying to address this particular issue. I recall--because I am going by memory--my resolution talked about the need to establish some sort of a data bank that would see information from around the world, if you like, in terms of being stored so that it would help facilitate accreditation of immigrants that come to Canada. What quite often will happen is an immigrant that comes to Canada will have the expertise or have the skills or the university background that says, hey, look, this person has the training to be a qualified nurse, if you like, or an architect, engineer, whatever it might be, yet for some reason that individual is not necessarily allowed to be put on that equal playing field, to be able to enter that job market.

In many areas, no doubt, it is justified. In other areas, one in many I should say, question in terms of whether or not it is in fact justified. The most common example that is brought to my attention is, of course, the nurse. We get nurses from foreign lands that come to the province and they say, you know, why is it that I am not allowed to practise what I learned from my homeland, yet I can go to many American states, and I would be able to continue on in terms of what I was trained to do?

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I guess if we try to put ourselves in the situation, in that very same situation, if we were practising law or an engineer here in Canada, and we went to another land and which we adopted as our homeland, and we were told, well, we are not prepared to recognize the skills or the profession that you were in, in your homeland, you, too, no doubt, would feel awfully frustrated if what you are doing is washing dishes when you were previously taking care of patients in a hospital in some other land.

There is to a certain degree some conflict, as the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has pointed out, through different organizations. Government would be classified as one of those organizations that does put up some stumbling blocks. It is important that as legislators we try to see past those. For example, a classical argument for anything dealing with health care is for someone to say, well, we are concerned about the quality of health care and for that reason you have to meet these particular standards.

Madam Speaker, no one is as concerned, or I like to believe anyway that I am second to no one in terms of wanting to ensure that we have quality health care delivery people at our front lines. I am equally prepared to say that individuals that come from faraway lands should be given the opportunity to be able to compete for those jobs, because in many areas, and we can take a look in medicine, that of the physician, where in rural Manitoba, in some areas, we are borderline crisis, whereas if we take a look at our immigrant population they might be able to meet a certain need.

I am glad to see that the College of Physicians and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has in fact recognized that and is attempting to try to recognize some of those credentials. I ultimately believe that you could go down a number of different professions and skilled levels of employment, and I have made reference to a few of them. I will reiterate again that, of course, in medicine, being of our nurses, of doctors, in terms of outside of medicine, you can talk about everything from agricultural jobs to architectural jobs, engineering jobs. I look around, and in particular the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) and the minister who went to many different events with me, or not necessarily accompanying me, but we attended the same event. What would happen is no doubt he would enter into the same sorts of discussions and dialogue that I and the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) enter in quite often.

So what this resolution is suggesting is that we provide that opportunity in a very public way in the sense of having some sort of a public discussion forum, if you like, that would see individuals expressing their frustration. I think there is a lot of merit to that, Madam Speaker. In fact, I look at what the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) talked about at the beginning of her remarks. She talked about the costs of running this particular Chamber of $10,000 a day and, yes, there is no doubt, if I could have my way, there are many things that we could actually change that would make it that much more productive in terms of the time that we are putting in and in fact the tax dollars.

One of those ways might be to have one of our Standing Committees dealing with issues which members of this Legislature want to draw public attention to. I think this is an excellent issue. If in fact, Madam Speaker, if we had a Standing Committee that was prepared to do something of this nature, this is the type of issue in which I believe Manitobans--because you do not have to be an immigrant to be sympathetic to this. Anyone with a vision for the province of Manitoba could see the net benefits of acknowledging the skills, the many skills and expertise that many people bring to the province of Manitoba. Those individuals, also it would acknowledge the need to address this problem.

The member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) talked at length in terms of some of the barriers that are put up front. The Minister of Education talks about some of the frustration that she has and many of us share in terms of the worthwhileness of us sitting inside the Chamber, and ultimately I think that both the Minister of Education and the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) and all of us would benefit tremendously if in fact there were changes that allowed for what the member for Broadway is trying to say, and that is allow the people that are experiencing the frustration first hand to come before a legislative group or legislative body. It is one thing to meet with caucus representatives or individual MLAs as an interest group if you like; it is another thing to formalize that process in terms of as a Legislature.

I believe, Madam Speaker, and that is why I do not have too much of a problem with the resolution, and would have in fact liked to have provided a forum to allow these individuals and others to be able to express their thoughts, their feelings and most importantly their ideas on how we can resolve this. I would welcome the opportunity, for example, the Manitoba nurses' association and government bodies or management bodies that are out there that many believe put up some of those barriers, whether it is intentional or nonintentional, whether it is in the form of job protection or genuine concerns about health care delivery or architectural standards or law standards or whatever it might be.

With those few words, I did want to, as I said, indicate that the concept of the member for Broadway is something which we support. I applaud him personally for bringing forward this resolution. I encourage very strongly to the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) that it would be nice to see us deal with issues of this nature, as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) himself has experienced on several occasions in a more independent way or private members' way. A standing committee of such might facilitate this sort of a thing. We can all still be very political, obviously, on all the different issues, including this one, but at least to have some process that will allow individuals the ability to express their frustrations that they have been experiencing for many, many years, Madam Speaker. This is not a new issue. This goes back to immigration ways right from virtually the turn of the century.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, I do count it a privilege to be able to speak on this resolution. I would just like to make some comments as to the comments that were made by the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) regarding getting public opinion and in fact talking to our constituents, the members out there, as to their feelings regarding the whole area of accreditation.

I started off with my mother who in fact took her Normal School training, which is what it was called at that time, in the 1930s, and it was a real highlight for her when she completed her training to have that credential which gave her the opportunity and the ability to teach. When that was handed to her, it was something that she treasured. I believe that there was a point in time when standards were set, when accreditation was given to individuals upon completion of assignments that we do not want to ignore. I think that ongoing we have been demonstrating the ability to do exactly that.

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Madam Speaker, the Manitoba government has made a great deal of progress on this issue in terms of facilitating the effective recognition of immigrant credentials. Manitoba Education and Training works closely with the Immigrant Credentials Branch to improve the immigrant credentials recognition process with respect to apprenticeship, college programs and the professions. Our government places a high priority on developing a clear, meaningful and accessible education and training system in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, having that system in place will allow us to deliver a more efficient and effective assessment of credentials from other countries because those equivalencies will be much clearer. It will also make it easier for all Manitobans, including immigrants, to build upon their previous learning experiences without repeating course work. This also means working closely with professional organizations and others to ensure that legitimate credentials and education from other countries gets the recognition it is due here in Manitoba.

However, this is not just a matter that Manitoba can easily resolve on its own. We have also recognized the need to work with our counterparts in the other provinces and in the territories. Madam Speaker, this way we can work together to ensure that we remain consistent with a trend toward making credentials portable for all occupational groups.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to say that steps towards these goals are occurring in different areas of the education system. Our province is collaborating with the other western provinces and territories in the development of common outcomes in core curricula. That co-operation extends to many levels and will have many benefits. One of the issues that is being dealt with is the issue of certification. Manitoba is what is called a lead party in the areas of teacher preparation and certification, aboriginal education and aboriginal teacher education and also in the area of French languages.

Madam Speaker, certainly we must have standards and similarities from the ground up when it comes to professional and technical accreditation. That is one reason why we are looking at all areas of this issue from grade school education to universities and beyond to professional associations.

Another important element of this plan is the initiation of a senior year's apprenticeship option on a pilot basis for 1995-96. This involves the Apprenticeship Branch and the school system from Kindergarten to Senior 4 levels. Another key component of this government's actions is the work that is ongoing between the colleges and the Colleges Secretariat to work among themselves and with the province on a protocol for transferring college credits. The college credit transfer guide is one of the components of the plan. There is also ongoing discussion and work to improve communication and co-operation between some colleges and high schools.

Madam Speaker, this is also a goal for the entire country. I know that the Council of Ministers of Education from across Canada have put forward an initiative that first- and second-year university courses be recognized across Canada. By next year the plan is to make the undergraduate credits completely transferable, and that would be followed by a similar transfer credit among the colleges, then between colleges and universities.

(Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair)

This is an initiative that has involved Manitoba's universities. This is still in its early stages, but there is clearly a great deal of potential for improving communications and methods both provincially and nationally.

Our government is also working on the area of immigration to ensure that skills and credentials are recognized. We have worked in the health care field to ensure that foreign doctors are able to work here in Manitoba. Like all physicians, they must meet the high standards of our health care professionals.

I would like to outline some of the things we are doing in Manitoba to ensure that credentials are recognized for those who wish to practise medicine in our province.

Our government established a conditional registration process as of July 31 this year to help foreign doctors practise in Manitoba. This conditional register provides rural and northern communities with a greater opportunity to attract both Canadian and foreign medical graduates who do not yet meet all the licensing requirements but are deemed adequately competent by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba.

This is welcome news to those of us in rural Manitoba, and it is great news for the medical profession in our province. I would just like to elaborate on that. In our own area we have a number of doctors who have over the years done an excellent job in looking after their practice who are from out of country. They have gone through the process of getting themselves registered and are certainly a great contribution to the community and are very, very much appreciated.

We also have in place a process to allow graduates from Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland to qualify for the conditional registration without taking immediate equivalency examinations. They get up to two years to take the Medical Council qualifying exam. By putting forward this conditional registry, we are doing exactly what should be done, ensuring standards are met while at the same time making it easier for doctors from other jurisdictions to practise in Manitoba.

(Madam Speaker in the Chair)

My colleague the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer) has also worked on the area of immigration to ensure that our common goals are being met. That dialogue included a meeting last week in Ottawa with the federal Minister of Immigration. In Manitoba we are also working to remove the red tape and other impediments to businesses. All of these things have a common thread, and we are working to make it easier for Manitobans to do business and to work in their field of choice and expertise.

Through the Credentials Recognition Program, the branch provides wage assistance to Manitoba businesses which create full-time employment opportunities for eligible immigrants. These employment opportunities enable clients to obtain Canadian work experience necessary for professional certification. This program is known to employers who frequently inquire whether we have clients with specific training and education to meet their labour market needs.

I would just like to elaborate a little further on a personal point of my own. I have two brothers who in fact took their education, and they got their doctorates in Oxford. In order for them to be able to complete the requirements that they had, they also had to go through a very specific accreditation program in order to obtain their Ph.Ds.

There are other countries that are doing the same. I believe that is important for us that we continue to take care and take note of the credits that we give out in our province and that we critically analyze them.

On the other hand, though, I believe that we should also allow for and give the best opportunity for those who are coming into this country to allow them to become involved and work in our communities. They are a great asset to our communities, and we do appreciate them.

One other comment I would just like to make is regarding the whole area of the information and for-use-abroad information sheets which outline the credentials processed for 31 professional associations in Manitoba being developed. This initiative is being expanded upon in the upcoming year to include similar information sheets on the trades in Manitoba. This is a joint initiative being undertaken by the branch and Apprenticeship and Training.

The government is also working with the University of Manitoba and the Red River Community College to develop a computer model to provide--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member will have three minutes remaining.

The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with the understanding that this House will reconvene at 8 p.m. this evening.