ORDERS OF THE DAY

SECOND READINGS

Bill 19--The Intercountry Adoption (Hague Convention) and Consequential Amendments Act

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), that Bill 19, The Intercountry Adoption (Hague Convention) and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi concernant l'adoption internationale (Convention de La Haye) et apportant des modifications corrélatives), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce amendments to Manitoba's intercountry adoption legislation as part of our province's commitment to protect the rights of children and their families.

The main purpose of the Hague Convention is to implement a system of co-operation between countries around the world that will safeguard children. Our No. 1 priority is to protect children by preventing atrocities such as abduction and the sale of, or traffic in, children. The Hague Convention also protects the rights of both birth parents and adoptive families by ensuring that all countries which ratify the convention legally recognize adoptions made in accordance with the convention guidelines.

To accomplish these two very important goals, the convention sets out a system of co-operation between participating states. Each state must set up a central authority to deal with cases of intercountry adoption and the central authority must follow established guidelines in order for an adoption to be recognized.

Canada was one of more than 65 countries that successfully concluded four years of negotiations to produce this treaty. In May of this year the Hague Convention was officially enforced after it was ratified by three countries, Mexico, Romania and Sri Lanka.

Because adoption is a matter of provincial jurisdiction, Canada will only be able to ratify the convention after participating provinces pass the necessary enabling legislation. Prince Edward Island passed the necessary legislation to ratify the Hague Convention in 1994, followed by Saskatchewan and British Columbia.

I am pleased to note that Manitoba's legislation is already very consistent with the guidelines set out by the Hague Convention. For that reason, Madam Speaker, we only require minor amendments to meet the standards identified.

At this time, Manitoba's legislation requires that the birth parents provide a signed consent before intercountry adoptions can take place. However, in some countries, the names of birth parents are kept confidential. With these amendments, we will now accept certification of consent from that country's central authority. This certification will ensure that the consents have been signed by the birth parents in accordance with that country's legislation.

Manitoba's central authority will be the director of Child and Family Services. Other countries will designate a person who holds a similar position to act as their central authority.

Madam Speaker, I view the Hague Convention and the related amendments to this legislation as a very important step towards protecting and promoting the rights of adopted children around the world. Therefore I am pleased to recommend this bill to committee for quick passage through this Legislature. Thank you.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave now to revert for nonpolitical statements? [agreed]

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENT

Concordia Adult Day Club

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I rise to recognize the new Concordia Adult Day Club opened on October 20 in the constituency of Radisson in the East Kildonan area. I want to congratulate the Lions Club of Winnipeg Housing Centres, which is sponsored by the Lions Club of Winnipeg, for this exciting health service for seniors.

The adult day club will provide social, physical, recreational, educational activities designed to enhance the quality of life for all members and to enable each member to maximize his or her potential. There will be up to 80 members from the East Kildonan-Transcona area who will be picked up and provided with the services of a well-trained staff and participate in a wide range of activities.

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The emphasis for this centre is intergenerational, and it shows clearly that the community can participate to ensure that seniors are not isolated. It recognizes that health is not merely the absence of illness, but it is about quality of life. This excellent preventative health initiative is important to the community, and I wish to extend successful best wishes for the staff, participants, the community volunteers, the administration, of this much-needed preventative health program for the East Kildonan-Transcona area. Thank you.

House Business

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the indulgence of the member for Radisson to allow the Minister of Family Services to introduce her bill.

Madam Speaker, the other day I inadvertently referred Bill 28 to the Economic Development committee for its meeting on Thursday, October 26 at 9 a.m. This bill should not have been referred there. It should be considered by Committee of the Whole which I will call next week. So that correction can be made. Bill 28 should not go to the Economic Development committee for Thursday, October 26.

Madam Speaker, in light of the fact that today is civic election day throughout the province, there might be a willingness amongst members to conclude our proceedings today at four o'clock.

Madam Speaker: Is that the will of the House? [agreed]

Point of Order

Mr. Ernst: On a point of order. I am having a great deal of difficulty hearing myself speak.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader indeed does have a point of order. I was having great difficulty hearing you speak as well.

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Mr. Ernst: Would you call Bills 18, 23, 34 and 36.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS

Bill 18--The Housing and Renewal Corporation Amendment Act

Madam Speaker: To resume debate on second reading on Bill 18, The Housing and Renewal Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Société d'habitation et de rénovation), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing (Mr. Reimer), standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I would like to take a few moments to put my comments on this bill and my concerns with what is happening with Manitoba public housing in this province.

In Manitoba we have a large number of people who live in public housing, in fact, some 20,000 people. We have long waiting lists of people who would like to get into public housing.

When you look at the rate of income of many people in this province, we have people who live on very meager incomes, and we recognize that these people will never be able to own their own homes. Therefore, it is very, very important that we do have public housing available for these people, and it is important that housing be kept in a reasonable state.

Unfortunately, when I look at the public housing in my constituency, this has not happened. Some of the public housing units are in very poor condition. I have had many phone calls from people in my constituency who have had a terrible time when it comes to getting their homes repaired.

I think that is something that this government should take very seriously, recognize the fact that there are people who have to live in public housing because they cannot afford it, but also that there should be a good quality of home there. Unfortunately, this government has--rather than increasing and upgrading the quality of housing that is owned by this government, we have seen a downgrade since 1990.

In fact, in 1991 this government abolished the volunteer housing boards and replaced them with the Manitoba Housing Authority and cut back on many of the employees that were under Manitoba housing, and that did not lead to a better quality of housing stock.

I think that it is very important that we do have volunteers and that we also look at ways that we can involve the tenants who live in these homes, that they are involved in the upkeep of the homes, that they are involved in having some say in how the homes are operated.

Bill 18 will change the structure and the membership of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation from a board of five senior civil servants appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor plus a minister as a chair and a deputy minister as vice-chair to a committee of between five and 15 members who are appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor plus a minister as a chair and a deputy minister as vice-chair, to a committee between five and 15 members who are appointed by Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council who may also designate the chair and vice-chair.

So what we have here is--[interjection] The minister says this is more public participation, but I have to wonder whether this is more public participation or less. He has to appoint a board, and I wonder why, if he wanted public participation, why his government eliminated all those volunteer boards that were in place prior to 1991, where that was a real opportunity for the minister to have public participation. So I think that we have some concerns with what the government is doing, and we really view this as a move towards privatization of the Manitoba Housing stocks.

Madam Speaker, I want to just relate to people in my constituency who are in Manitoba Housing units. As I said, there is a large number of units spread out throughout the constituency. In Swan River, there is a very large number of units.

I have to say that in 1991, the people were very disappointed with the move that was made by this government to not put a regional office in Swan River, and they felt that the government was being very political when they put the regional office in Roblin. There was a big concern that this was going to make it more difficult for seniors to make contact with the Housing office, and, in fact, it did for a little while. It was very difficult because it was all long-distance charges. That has been corrected; we now have a toll-free number into the area, but there is still not the close contact and not the involvement of the local people in the Housing Authority that we used to have prior to the dismantling of the volunteer boards by this government.

So I think that the government must really look at involving people more in how the Housing operations are run, and I think that we have to look at tenants' associations so that they can have some say. I hope that the minister will consider that.

The other area where we have--there is a large number of housing units in the outlying areas, and I know that the minister became aware of the problems in the NACC communities. In fact, I believe he visited the Pelican Rapids community to address some of the concerns, unfortunately, not all of the concerns, and I will be bringing to the minister's attention problems that still do exist because there are some very serious problems.

It seems to be that when contractors go out to these outlying areas, they do the work and then cannot be held accountable because they are gone. I think what we really have to look at is more involvement of local people, and, again, by forming tenant associations, people start to take pride in their own homes that they are living in. If they are involved in the repair of these works, if there is some way we could look at having local people involved in the upgrading and the maintenance--not only the maintenance of the houses per se, but the properties as well--I think we could develop extreme pride in some of these communities. That is something we should see, I would hope that this minister would consider.

In some of these communities we see a Manitoba Housing unit put up, but there is very little done with respect to landscaping of the properties, and you could not get away with this if you were in a larger town. For example, if you were in Swan River or in Dauphin or in Winnipeg and a Manitoba Housing building was put up, the landscaping would be done very nicely, and it would be done to enhance the facility, but this does not happen in the remote communities. I know that the minister saw first-hand the community of Pelican Rapids, and he will no doubt agree with me that there has to be much more work done to enhance the appearance of the property.

These are public properties we have, and we should be doing much more to make them more attractive and encourage people to take pride. That is why I think it is important that we have tenant associations and put some responsibility on the tenants and encourage them to have some involvement in the appearance and the quality of the level these are homes are maintained. I think even, as I had indicated, with the upgrading of units, there is no reason why outsiders have to come in to do that work. There should be some incentive, some possible way that the local people can be involved in it.

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The other area that I want to express some concern with is seniors. There are many seniors living in public housing units, and they are on low incomes. Again, it is very difficult for them in some of these units.

In another one of my constituencies, there are seniors who I do not believe were treated very fairly. That is in the community of Mafeking. When their homes were being renovated they were told on very short notice that they had to leave their houses. No alternate housing was put in place for them. They just had to go. I think, when the department is doing work like that and upgrading seniors units, that they must be more sensitive to the people who are living in these units. We ended up having to call the department and tell them that some of the people they were asking to evacuate their homes really had no place else to go.

When we are dealing with anyone that is living in public housing, we have to be sensitive of their circumstances, but in particular we have to be very sensitive to the fact that when seniors are asked to move out of their homes, it is very disruptive. They are very set in their ways, and, if it is not handled in a proper manner, indeed it can cause problems as it did in this area. The problem was worked out, and the people were compensated for having to move into hotels. But, again, I think that it could have been handled much better, and, again, we do owe that to our seniors.

But, Madam Speaker, many people who live in public housing are on very low incomes, and actions taken by this government have certainly not helped those people. In particular, we have seen an increase in rent from 25 to 27 percent. You may say 2 percent is not that great, and that is true when it is somebody who has maybe a two-income family or somebody who is on a decent salary. But when you look at our seniors who are living on very minimal income or when you look at people who are on minimum wage, a 2 percent increase in their rent is very, very great and on lower incomes, this ends up just having a much greater negative effect than it will be on a higher income. Now that we have property tax credits counted in it as income for the first time, this has raised rents even further and it has actually taken over $300,000 out of low-income families. Again, this is having a negative effect on people on low incomes.

We are very pleased that following the petitions that our members got going and press conferences that were held in Brandon and Winnipeg, the government realized that they had made mistakes and finally set up an appeal panel, an appeal process for those people who are being hit so hard by these increases that made it impossible for them to survive. I guess this increase in rent, Madam Speaker, also affects people who were staying in personal care homes. That is the one place where we saw the terrible effect, where we saw senior citizens, who are, of course, on a fixed income, left with a very small amount of money, not even enough money to buy gifts for their grandchildren if they wanted to, not even the funds to provide the necessities of life. I can certainly relate this to my own experience because in fact we had my husband's parents who were in seniors' homes, and, because of actions taken by this government, their pensions--because they were a couple sharing a room, their rate was different. In fact, they did not have the funds from month to month to cover their expenses.

When we tried to appeal this, we were told that what we could do is apply for social assistance. In fact, many seniors were forced to apply for social assistance because of actions taken by this government. With our family, we chose to go the other route, and it was the family that had to supplement my husband's parents in this particular case, because the funds that they got from their pension did not meet the costs that were imposed on them by this increase in rent that this government has imposed.

So certainly not a fair action on the part of this government, and I think a lack of sensitivity on the part of the government to realize that there are people who are very limited in their resources. I think it is extremely unfair when you hear that the government increases the rent to public housing and hurts our seniors. I guess we also see the same thing happening with people who are on social assistance here in Winnipeg who have very high rents and are ending up using their food allowance to stay in their homes, and that is certainly not fair to our children.

It is very important that our children have a healthy diet, and our view on healthy children was outlined in our platform where we think that keeping children healthy is a preventative health care service and one that will save us millions of dollars down the road. But when we see people having to take their food allowance and spend it on housing costs, that certainly does not make for a very healthy environment for our children to live in.

The other areas I wanted to talk about, again in my constituency are the communities of Duck Bay and Camperville. Certainly in Camperville we have a Housing Authority that has done an excellent job in getting homes built in the area. Although there is a long waiting list in that community, the Housing Authority has done a good job of persuading the government that they do need homes in that community. But in the community of Duck Bay, which is another NACC community, we have an extreme shortage of housing. It seems impossible to convince the government, and now that we are not going to have any more new housing units built, it is a real problem for people. When we see--[interjection] No, it is fine. I hope you are feeling well, too, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the member across the way mentioned MERLIN. I am speaking about the housing in Duck Bay, but I do have to say that unfortunately, because of actions taken by this government, I am sure people in Duck Bay will never have the opportunity to access distance education unless we get some positive action.

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I hope I am wrong, and I really sincerely hope that we will see the day when we will have the opportunity for good quality housing and the opportunity for people to be involved in their local tenant association so that they can be involved in repairing their homes. I think it is very important. If that is involved, then we will see a better quality of home, Madam Speaker.

I believe that the plan of this bill is to streamline the Housing Authority and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and allow it to be privatized, and that is a real serious risk. If the government is planning to privatize the housing units, then what is going to happen to all of these people? If these units fall into the hands of private owners, what is going to happen to these people who are on very low incomes? Are they going to become at the mercy of private landlords? Where we see private landlords, people end up living in very poor conditions, and I would hope that the government is not looking at privatizing these units and, in fact, will look at enhancing the quality of the housing units that we have here in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, we should not be surprised that this government is looking at privatizing their housing units when we see that the federal government, Conservative government, moved in that direction. It is a great disappointment that the government would consider lowering the quality of life of people who live in public housing, but at the same time is prepared to pick up the salaries of expensive hockey players and prepared to subsidize the hockey teams, but not prepared to improve the quality of life of people who, by circumstances that they have been caught in, do not have the ability to build their own home.

I am sure, Madam Speaker, you have had the opportunity to see some of these communities, but, if you have not, I would invite you to come to some of the communities that I represent, where there is very, very high unemployment, no opportunity for job creation, except for a few promises that we heard during campaigns.

You know, I mentioned the community of Duck Bay. During the campaign, we heard all kinds of promises that we were going to have economic development in that area. Had that economic development really taken place, then people would not have to worry so much about having public housing to live in. But those were just election promises, and I am sure none of the members across the way would even pretend that they could carry out these promises, such as having a rafter-building business come into Duck Bay and create all these jobs.

But if that were to become a reality and we would have these jobs in Duck Bay and some of those other communities, we would not have to worry about people who have no jobs, people worrying about what kind of housing they are going to live in. But we have many places--

An Honourable Member: Give them trees; let them build their own homes.

Ms. Wowchuk: --across the province where this is happening. The Minister of Natural Resources says, give them trees and let them build their houses. If the Minister of Natural Resources would come up with a program like that--and I know he has done it for one community--there would be an opportunity for some more people to build homes.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): I offered Pukatawagan 10,000 cubic metres.

Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, the minister offered logs to Pukatawagan, and I congratulate him for recognizing that there is a housing shortage. He has to recognize also that providing the logs is only one part of the solution. I am not familiar with Pukatawagan. I do not know whether they have a sawmill or whether they have the ability to process those logs. If they do, then good for them.

I look forward to hearing the minister coming out to other communities and offering that same program, because certainly we have to look at how it is that we can provide housing for people that have a shortage.

I mentioned Duck Bay. I believe that there are some 30 families that are in need of housing there. In Camperville they are in need of housing.

I should tell the Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer) that in Swan River right now there is also a need for housing. I hope that he is not looking at decreasing public housing in that area, that we continue to have the homes there. I would very much like to see an increase in the number of public housing units that will be available for people.

But again, Madam Speaker, it is becoming very difficult for people who are in public housing because of decisions made by this government to increase rents. That has hurt people in public housing very much. The change to put the property tax credit to be counted as income has hurt people in public housing.

The government does not seem to have very much sensitivity to the people who are on very low income and need housing. Actions that they have taken have further reduced their quality of life by taking away that additional 2 percent in rent. As I said, that 2 percent has resulted in another $300,000 for government coffers, which is very little when you consider the whole budget, but for the people who are affected by this, it is a big difference.

It is a big difference when you are on a very minimal income when you have that extra 2 percent taken away. For seniors who are in public housing, this additional 2 percent may mean a difference as to whether they can go out for a meal or not. And for seniors to get out of their homes is very important. Many of them live in isolation. Their socialization is to go out for a meal. But that has changed under moves by this government to increase rent.

So I hope that the government will recognize that their actions to claw back, to increase rents, to take money away from seniors who are on fixed income is not a positive move, and it has hurt our seniors. It has also hurt our families, single mothers with young families who are on a fixed income. Those kinds of increases in rent just show how insensitive this government is to people who are on low incomes.

I have talked to people who have said every little increase makes a difference, and it is going to matter. These little things make a difference as to whether their children can go on field trips with other children, and that is not fair. The government has to open their minds and recognize that increasing the rent, by even 2 percent, has a very negative impact on the low-income people in this family.

Madam Speaker, public housing is very important. We have many people who are living in public housing. We have many people who are suffering because they have to go into private housing which is at a much higher rate than they can afford. We have to ensure that we always have a good stock of public housing available for people who do not or cannot afford to purchase their own home. It is a responsibility that we have, and it is a way that we can bring a little bit of equality to people across this province. I want to say that it is very important that we maintain this housing stock, that we do not see cutbacks and that we do maintain the quality of these houses.

I want to commend the minister for listening to the people from the Northern Affairs communities when he went to their conference. They told him that there were problems with housing. I commend him for taking that trip out and addressing some of the concerns.

I want to remind him that there are still many other concerns out there, and there are a few specific cases that I will bring to his attention, but certainly I would hope that the minister also addresses the other problems that have been created by his department, particularly the problems of gearing the rent to increases and the increases in rent that have resulted from changing property taxes, including property tax credits in revenue. This has had a negative effect.

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I would hope that the minister would consider those things and seriously look at what is happening to people who are living in low-income housing and address those concerns and perhaps take a different direction than previous ministers have with respect to housing and ensure that those people who are in those homes do have the opportunity to have a quality of life.

Certainly the changes that are being proposed in this bill are not something that we see as positive moves, and we would like to see the government set up--the government took away the community involvement when they took away the volunteer boards. It is important that the people living in housing units have some ability to have a say, to be involved, so the change to remove the volunteer boards we believe was a negative move.

We hope that the government will consider a way to involve the tenants again, and the possibility of tenants' associations is certainly something that we would encourage the government to consider. I think it would be very healthy if we could see the tenants again involved, having some say in how the units that they are living in are operating. That would be a very positive move.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I would like to say that there are problems with this legislation and not a positive move. If this is a move towards privatizing housing units, we would not be supporting such a move.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, very briefly on this particular bill, there are some concerns that we do have. I can recall, being first elected in '88, the government's approach to dealing with some of the many--I think it was over 140--different Housing Authorities or boards, if you like, and having the opportunity to have discussions with numerous people who were on these boards. Then the idea came about to develop the Manitoba Housing Authority in order to replace the boards, and there was again a lot of concern.

The concern comes out of the fact that we want very much so for people to get involved, in particular the tenants of the different nonprofit housing units, in excess of 20,000 housing units that are scattered through, not all of which obviously Manitoba Housing Authority is responsible for. We do feel relatively optimistic that there are other ways in which we can ensure that there is tenant participation. In fact, this bill can be positive if the intentions of government are to have the one authority--or governing body if you like--while at the same time promoting the development of tenant groups within the many different nonprofit housing complexes.

I personally would compliment, actually not only this Minister of Housing but the former Minister of Housing in particular, in working with the tenants groups in Gilbert Park, an area in which I represent, and if in fact that is the agenda of the government--and I have no reason to believe that that is not, given the sort of reception that I have personally had and the tenants in terms of being able to express their concerns to the Minister of Housing--it can be a movement in the right direction.

With that one caveat, Madam Speaker, we do not have any problem with this particular bill going to the committee stage but would really emphasize the importance of the development and promotion of strong tenant groups in Manitoba Housing units. Thank you very much.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

Committee Change

Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I have a change for the committee. I made an error earlier.

I move, seconded by the member for Riel (Mr. Newman), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows: the member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) for the member for Springfield (Mr. Findlay).

Motion agreed to.

House Business

Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a matter of House business, I would call the Law Amendments committee for Monday, October 30, at 10 a.m. to consider Bills 19 and 20.

I believe there is a will of the House to call it six o'clock.

Madam Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it six o'clock? [agreed]

The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Thursday).