COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

EDUCATION AND TRAINING

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee was last considering the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training, it had been considering item 4.(h)(1) on page 39 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

16.4.(h) Apprenticeship and Workforce 2000 (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,458,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $2,317,400--pass.

4.(j) Stevenson Aviation Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $325,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $443,300--pass.

Resolution 16.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $38,970,600 for Education and Training , Training and Advanced Education, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

16.5. Support to Schools. 5.(a) Schools Finance (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $824,300.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I understand there has to be a change of staff at the moment, so we are moving into another section. Does the minister want to take a couple of minutes to do that, or how do we want to proceed here?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Did you want to do a section while waiting for the staff to come?

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, well, I can put some of the questions, but they may be detailed enough to need staff.

Mrs. McIntosh: Why do you not just start asking the questions, and then if I need further detail we can wait until the deputy arrives?

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the minister some of the new sums that are going to private schools in Manitoba. In particular, could the minister tell us what is the amount of funding that is going to St. Mary's and St. Paul's this year?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the deputy for this level is on his way, and I do not know the school-by-school breakdown. I am not sure that he will know when he gets here without paper, but we could probably obtain that if we do not have it here. I do not happen to have it with me at the moment.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, well, perhaps we can wait until he gets here. That is fine.

Mrs. McIntosh: Thank you very much. It is fairly easy to extrapolate in that we know the amount per pupil given; and, if you know the number of pupils in the school, it is usually easy to work it out. But I will wait till he gets here and see if that detail is already on the paper that he has.

Maybe, while we are waiting, the member had indicated or had asked the other day what connection I might have seen between the rights of denominational schools and the rights of linguistic groups at the time that Manitoba was formed. I had indicated I thought there were several parallels that could be drawn. I have some excerpts here I would like--there is one that I think is particularly good. It is to question the right--it is a quote that I am reading, Mr. Chairman, and I will get a copy of this for tabling. I do not have a copy right now. The quote is: To question the rights of Roman Catholics to a public-supported school system as well as questioning the official status of the French language in the province was tantamount to challenging the very basis of Confederation. Language and school rights had seemed to be entrenched in the Manitoba Act and had been accepted as the norm for years.

There is a long section. This book is called The Canadian Prairies: A History, and it has historical references linking the two, as I had indicated, in the terms of the way people felt about the issues. In terms of their perceptions of the importance of them, they were, according to this author, tied fairly tightly together. So I can have copies of that tabled for the member as one historical writer who backs up the position that I put forward. I know the member had questioned this as well in Question Period. I think this backs up the position that I was taking quite nicely. So, maybe, I could get some copies of this, and I will table it for the member.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what the minister is doing is in fact saying there is a perception, and the quote argues that there is a perception. But she had also maintained, I believe, in the House and in interviews with the press that, if they are reporting correctly, there was, in fact, a parallel in constitutional issues. That was my question to the minister. What is the connection in constitutional terms?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, what I had indicated was that there was, in the minds of the people who had followed these issues, a definite linkage, and that was made clear--and I think if the member reads my answer in Hansard from Question Period, for example, it will be crystal clear--that I am talking about a parallel, I am talking about an analogy, I am talking about the importance and significance of the issue in people's minds. I think it will be quite clear if she reads it, and, as I say, that particular writer supports my position that there is a parallel, there is a sense that the history of independent schools or denominational school and language rights are intertwined in the minds of historians and people, unlike other issues that have come up in education since. But, anyhow, the member had asked me what background I might have. I just simply put that forward as one writer who supports this view.

Ms. Friesen: Let us try and make this clear at this stage. Does the minister believe that there is a constitutional obligation on the part of Manitoba that exists that has been demonstrated for the public support of private schools?

Mrs. McIntosh: As I indicated to the member, Manitoba's entrance into Confederation had some understandings about independent schools or nondenominational and denominational schools, and those it was deemed had been violated by the government some 20 years later. That violation had been challenged by the more recent independent schools, specifically, the Roman Catholic schools, as violating their rights. To avoid the litigation that would have stemmed from such a case--with experts saying that the case was not one that we could guarantee winning--we settled for an out-of-court settlement which, of course, is exactly what the NDP had proposed in writing as the way to deal with it.

As the member knows, I had tabled in the House documentation from the NDP cabinet minister under Mr. Pawley saying that a political solution was the way to go. Subsequently, NDP minister is saying that it was important to move to an agreement that would see funding provided by agreement to the independent schools from the government, and, of course, the original document which was signed by the government of Manitoba under Premier Schreyer indicated that all Manitobans had the right to the school of their choice other than a state school, and that education should be provided free to all in the kindergarten to Grade 8, and that the NDP would enact legislation, if necessary, to ensure that those rights for our people to make those schools of choice decisions for schools run by the state or not run by the state would be guaranteed.

So with all of those in mind, when I indicate that I believe that a parallel can be drawn between the language question, which has a specific constitutional guarantee, and the nondenominational/denominational school question, which has an understanding--not exactly the same but powerful in the minds of people--that those two are similar in a way that other school or education decisions have not been.

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The member had asked me if I had anybody who could back that up, and that is why I submitted the little reading that I just did which draws exactly the same kind of analogy that I was indicating. I will just quote again that to question the rights of Roman Catholics regarding schooling, et cetera, as well as questioning the official status of the French language, was tantamount to challenging the very basis of Confederation, because language and school rights had seemed to be entrenched in The Manitoba Act and had been accepted as the norm for 20 years. That is almost word for word, the position that I have been taking on this, and that is the answer I give to her question just now. I just submit it to show that one writer who wrote The Canadian Prairies: A History does echo those thoughts that I have presented on several occasions.

The two situations, of course, are not identical but they are analogous, and they do have parallel feelings and perceptions. It was on that basis that the Roman Catholic schools felt they could proceed into the court system.

Ms. Friesen: What the minister has tabled is a paragraph giving the historical context and explanation for the challenge of the new Ontario settlers in 1890 to the Manitoba schools issue. I want to repeat my question to the minister. Does the minister believe that there is a constitutional obligation on the part of Manitoba to fund independent schools?

Mrs. McIntosh: I have read the one paragraph, but, of course, there is much more than just the one paragraph in this book by Gerald Friesen, who has written the Canadian Prairies: A History. There are several pages, I believe, that have been copied. I have zeroed in on the one paragraph that indicates the specific response to the question that she had put to me. At any rate, I would indicate to her that it is the government's perception that it was wiser to come to an out-of-court settlement than to run the risk of the question she has just posed being decided by a higher authority, because there were some who felt that, in a situation like that, Manitoba would not end up freed from the obligation to fund independent schools. I guess all we can say is that we abide by our legal opinion and follow what we believe is the best course of action to settle things in a fair and balanced way that will not see a ruling handed down that could be, to the majority of Manitobans, a very expensive ruling indeed.

The deputy is here now, and he does have the figures that the member was requesting. For '95-96, she was asking about St. Mary's Academy. In fact, I can table the whole list if the member is interested. St. Mary's Academy received $1,340,038.98; St. Paul's, $1,313,278. Those are both schools, of course, with Roman Catholic origins. She may be interested to know that Ramah Hebrew School, for example, received $762,193.50. The Oholei Tora School received $41,799.50. The Mennonite Collegiate Institute received $265,818. The Lakeside Christian Academy received $70,756. Immanuel Christian academy received $421,144.50; Immaculate Heart of Mary School, $534,202.50; Holy Ghost School, $574,805; Holy Cross School, $799,508.50. The Christ the King School received $402,198. Bethel Christian Academy, of course, is a nonfunded school. Carman Christian academy is a nonfunded school. Those schools received zero dollars. Christian Heritage academy in Winnipeg received zero dollars. The Early Childhood Education Centre received zero dollars. The Greenbank school received zero dollars. Faith Academy received $557,105.50. The Killarney Christian academy received zero dollars. The Monsignor James McIssac School received $335,538. The Shady Lane School received zero dollars. The Shamrock School received zero dollars. The Steinbach Bible College received $322,245. The Springs of Living Water Christian school received $726,712. St. Alphonsus School received $568,802.50. St. Boniface Diocesan School received $616,679. St. Charles Academy, a Roman Catholic school, received $482,014, and so on. There is St. Edward's, St. Emile's, St. Gerard, St. Ignatius, St. John Brebeuf. St. John's Cathedral Boys' School received nothing, and I believe it is closed now, is it? Is it still functioning? It got zero dollars.

Ms. Friesen: It has been closed for some time.

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes. It is one that is not on here. That is why it received no dollars. Actually, I think St. John's Cathedral Boys' School never did receive any dollars, because its teachers, at least in the early days, were not certified; and, as you know, no independent school can apply for funding unless they first hire Manitoba certified teachers, abide by the Manitoba curriculum and take our assessment exams, et cetera. If they do not do those things, they receive no dollars whatsoever from the province. I believe St. John's Cathedral Boys' School, when it first started up, was hiring chemists to teach chemistry and medical doctors to teach biology. They were using people in the occupations to teach the subject areas; they were not necessarily certified teachers.

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St. John's-Ravenscourt received $1,441,466.26. St. Joseph the Worker received $405,291. St. Mary's Academy, I have given you already. St. Maurice School received $897,206. St. Vladimir College, $42,182. The Talmud Torah-Il Peretz School, one of the Jewish schools, received $279,916. The King's Christian school, $336,161. The Laureate Academy, which is a specialized school for students who have specialized learning desires and needs, and it is taught by experts in that area, received $378,879. The Torah Academy, another of our Jewish schools, received no dollars. The University of Winnipeg Collegiate, $857,399.10. The Western Christian College, Westgate Mennonite school, the Winnipeg Mennonite Elementary, the Zion Christian Academy, et cetera, were all similarly funded according to their students to the tune of $2,466 per student, or approximately 42 percent of what is spent on the public schools in Manitoba, which are not permitted by law to have the Christian or Jewish or faith elements that these schools I have just read.

I have not read them all, but the majority of our schools, as the member knows, are religious based, 83 percent of them, and the others have things about them that are also not able to be offered in the public system by law. For example, we have St. Mary's Academy, the member asked about, which is an all-girls school, and St. Paul's is an all-boys school. So we are not permitted by law to designate schools and prohibit one gender from attending; but, if they go for independent status, they can, of course, do that, provided they are willing to pay more and receive less funding than the public schools do.

Ms. Friesen: Is the minister tabling that document of the funding paid to private schools issue?

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to table this. I only have the one copy, but maybe the Clerk could provide copies. It lists all of the independent schools and what school division they are in. The member might be interested in looking at her own or the school that visited us today, Joseph Wolinsky, which was in the riding of the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). In fact, most of these schools are in opposition-held ridings. We always think it is such a shame that the opposition does not support them receiving funding from the public.

Ms. Friesen: The numbers that the minister has just tabled, I want to make sure that these are for the 96-97 academic year.

Mrs. McIntosh: No, those are for the year that we are in, the 95-96 year. We will not know the figures for the 96-97 year until we know the enrollments for the 96-97 year, which, of course, we will not know until that year begins in September.

Ms. Friesen: The 95-96 year, then, was based upon an 11 percent increase to the private schools that was awarded last year as part of the past agreement that the government had reached with the private schools. Could the minister tell me whether that past agreement included the amount for Level I, II and III of special needs? Did it include the textbook allotment? What is included in the amount that the minister has tabled?

Mrs. McIntosh: The numbers that I have given you--and you had asked specifically about St. Mary's Academy and St. Paul's? The number I gave you for St. Mary's Academy is $1,340,038.98. That includes the basic funding of $2,466 per student, and that $2,466 includes the Level I funding. On top of that, included as well in this amount, but on top of the $2,466, are the monies for Level II and Level III students, who are assessed on a case-by-case basis just as they are in the public system. The cost of materials and everything, same as with the public system, is decided exactly the same way.

So to sum up again, just in case I was not clear enough, they receive the per capita, and the per capita they receive is $2,466 per student. The Level I funding is included in that $2,466, just as it is in the capital grant for public schools. They then, on a case-by-case basis, as with the public schools, have their Level II and Level III students assessed, and they are funded accordingly. Their textbooks and materials are provided in the same manner the public schools are.

The total amount for this year for St. Mary's Academy, which includes Levels I, II and III and all those things, is this $1,340,000. So those amounts you see on the paper I have given you would include all of the grant. If you take a look at the Laureate Academy, for example, which has fifty-six Level I students or something like that, you will see that included in their amount is their Level I funding.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister also table a list of the enrollments in 95-96 in private schools?

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, I do have the information. I can indicate that I have the figures for the total enrollment, the full-time equivalent enrollment and the funded enrollment. In Albright School, for example, there are 16 students in total: 15 of them are full-time equivalent; 15 of them are funded. You will find, in the Christ the King School, there is a total of 176 students, full-time equivalent 148 students, and the funded number of students is 148. So the listing goes down. I think you will find that most of the--

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. A formal vote has been requested by two members in the Chamber. The committee will now proceed to the Chamber for a formal vote.