JUSTICE

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon we will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Justice. By leave, the committee has temporarily set aside Resolutions 4.2 and 4.3, and is considering Resolution 4.4? Is there any new staff present that the minister may want to introduce at this time?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): No, Mr. Chair, the staff are all the same staff who were present when the Estimates of Justice were last considered.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): The other day, the minister was asked a series of questions about meetings and what information she had regarding the release of inmates following the Headingley riot.

Just to follow up and detail some of those answers, would the minister tell this House the dates on which she had met with senior Corrections officials following the outbreak of the riot at Headingley and before it became known about the tragedy at Inwood? Would she tell the committee when meetings were held with her senior officials on the pattern of releases from Headingley and from the other correctional facilities in order to deal with the pressure of space on the correctional system in Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: This seems to be another way of asking a question which has been asked before in Estimates. The question was, at another time, did I have any discussion regarding temporary absences before the issue of the individual who is currently charged with murder.

I believe I said at that time that the issue of temporary absences was not brought forward to me as minister in discussion of dealing with inmate population pressures. I also have said previously that the deputy minister has said that the issue of the use of temporary absences following the riot was raised once to him and only again within a very general context of saying that there was a requirement to deal with inmates across the province.

So the answer today remains the same as the answer previously. The question, I believe, is to list the dates on which I met with senior Corrections officials to discuss the issue of temporary absences before--[interjection]

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Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members wanting to carry on their conversation to do so in the loge, out in the halls or back in their offices, so that we can carry on. It is a little hard to hear when there is chatter going around and around the House.

Mrs. Vodrey: As I said, the answer remains the same as the answer that I gave at another time. The discussions with myself as minister, to my knowledge and recollection, were not held around temporary absences, very specifically, until there had been the charge of murder.

Mr. Mackintosh: Had the minister, after the charge of murder, met with senior Corrections, Adult Corrections staff, to then review the numbers of those released not only on TA but were deemed to have completed the end of their sentence?

Mrs. Vodrey: As I have said and brought information forward in the Legislature, the first issue dealt with was criterion. We were also endeavouring to get statistics and numbers and details as they were being requested. As I have said in the House, it really took a great deal of effort to make sure that the statistics given were in fact matched exactly with what had been requested. The information brought forward was always brought forward to the best of my knowledge and to the best efforts of the individuals who work in Corrections, who by that point, were dealing with a third, very major issue within the department.

As the member can well appreciate, the issue of the riot alone was very significant for Corrections division in terms of an issue to deal with. Then following that, we had within a week a job action which required senior Corrections officials to take a very active role in dealing with our institutions and also dealing with our backup plan to make sure that everything ran as it was required. Then we had the third issue which was again a person charged with murder and again very significant details that were asked about that. That was provided, to the best of my knowledge, to the best efforts of Corrections division at each time statistics were brought forward.

I know the other side has wanted to make a great deal about the numbers that they have received, and the explanations that they have received and how responses were given. I can only say to them again that the best information was delivered, the best efforts were given, the best explanations available were also given. As we have had more time, as we have been able to provide more and more detail, that detail has been provided to the members opposite.

So that has been the strategy, that has been the way that we are dealing with these three very, very difficult issues, and we will continue to deal with them. We see some progress being made in the area of the restoration of the institution. That was, in fact, one of our major goals was to have the institution operating, and that did take significant time based on the work and the efforts of senior Corrections officials and staff. I should make a point of acknowledging not only our senior officials, whom the member knows and has had the opportunity to meet during the course of Estimates, but those staff members whom he perhaps has had the opportunity to speak with, or perhaps not, and to acknowledge the efforts of those individuals as well as we move towards the reopening of the institution.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, in the days following the Headingley riot, at any time had the minister been advised of the number of inmates released, either on TA or deemed to be at end of sentence?

Mrs. Vodrey: We dealt with again issues, following the riot, of relocation, as I have said, and as numbers were requested, numbers to the best of our ability were provided. I am just wondering what the member may want to know. I believe that I have answered a number of these questions in the past, and if he has an allegation to make, then I think it would be in the best interests of everyone who is sitting here, having done their best to provide him with what he wants to make it.

If he does not, then let us get on with it, because it is very difficult, you know, I just have to say what an incredibly difficult few days this was for Justice. I should not say a few days because it has been a very, very long and difficult five weeks, and in that five-week period we have met, we have endeavoured as information became available, it was provided to the best of people’s ability.

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The member sits here now requesting us to look back on exact dates, what occurred on each of those dates, and I would like to have some idea as to what he thinks that this is going to prove, because we have provided him with the best information that we can. To provide him with some of those exact dates, it would really takes us spending a lot of our time trying to reconstruct those dates for him when a lot of our focus is now getting the institution up and running, continuing to have it up and running even to greater capacity.

So the member seems to want to have the senior Corrections officials devote themselves to something in which I am not sure exactly how that is beneficial to the House, to the people of Manitoba. So if he has an allegation to make, I would encourage him to make it, and if he does not, then let us get on with it.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister just tell the committee, in the days following the Headingley riot and before the murder charge was laid, whether at a meeting of senior Corrections officials she was told of the number, approximate or exact, of those released, and whether there was a discussion about whether to advise the public of the decisions made about releases?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, having conferred with everyone at the table, to the best of our knowledge, the answer is an unqualified no, to the best of our understanding of his question asked. I would wonder why he might ask such a question.

Mr. Mackintosh: Am I given then to clearly understand that at no time before the murder charge was laid the minister was advised of the number, approximate or otherwise, of those released as a result of the Headingley riot with the pressures on the spaces in the correctional system?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, again I say, having conferred with the senior staff at the table, to the best of all of our recollection, such a number was not presented to me between the time of the riot and the time of the murder charge, in that time frame.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee why she did not ask about that number of officials in her department during that time?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as I have said before during the course of these Estimates, our immediate concern was to place inmates in institutions and to make sure that there was space available to deal co-operatively with the federal corrections, to deal with provincial corrections in Saskatchewan, to deal with some of the space pressures that were occurring. Those were the issues that were dealt with with senior officials and myself as minister at that time. Those were presented to me and, I could say now, considered to be the public safety issues.

The member, I think, would like to go back. Now we have had five weeks, going on six weeks, since the time of the riot. Everyone has had a lot of thinking time, a lot of time to dwell on and deal with certain issues, and it makes it very easy now to say, why did you not do that, or you should have done this. Mr. Chair, I can tell you that the information brought forward, the information discussed, was done at that time in what really was a crisis situation, because what the member keeps forgetting to talk about is that there was also a job action in the middle of that. He thinks it went from the riot to the charge of murder, but also in the middle of that there was also a major issue to deal with on the labour side and which required the same people to deal with that issue, the same people to deal with all of the plans to make sure that things were working appropriately.

So, as I have said before, the issues presented to me and the issues dealt with were placement of inmates considered a risk, inmates who, where there was a requirement for any agreement to be made between Stony--as I have said, the deputy minister signed that-- and also direction as to whether or not to pursue work with other provinces. And, yes, I immediately gave the direction when the option was presented to proceed with negotiations with Saskatchewan to have some of our inmates placed there. So nothing has changed since we talked about this quite some time ago. The member asks why not, and I have explained to him what major priorities were presented to me at that time.

Mr. Mackintosh: When was the first time that it came to the minister’s attention that there were releases in the adult Corrections due to the space problem caused by the riot? Was it at the time, for example, of the charge of the individual at Inwood?

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, having sought everyone’s recollection or recollection around the table, the answer was, shortly after the charge of murder, and I am not sure that anyone here can be significantly more specific than that. Maybe, through the member’s further questioning, we will have some idea about what it is he would like to know.

Mr. Mackintosh: It is my understanding that before that day the deputy minister had been advised of the temporary absences granted. Is that understanding accurate?

Mrs. Vodrey: As I answered earlier in the Estimates this afternoon, but the deputy reconfirms again for the second time this afternoon, he had been advised in a conversation with senior Corrections officials, in reference to inmate placement, that some inmates were being provided with temporary absences. He tells me that his notes indicate that that was in relation to, and again, this is my understanding, a quote from his notes, the term temporary absences in relation to inmates brutalized. So that was the context in which the deputy minister was informed.

Of course, as the member knows, we have former Justice Hughes, we have Ted Hughes, now doing a review, an independent review, of what occurred at Headingley, both before the riot and during the riot. We have also very specifically referred to him the matter of temporary absences so that there is an independent person who does not have a political agenda or another kind of agenda to try and make commentary or comment and that certainly information has been provided to the public as required.

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As a matter of fact, it has really been very difficult to try and get that information out because the waters seemed to be muddied frequently by members from the other side and who seem to be trying to make something about the very difficult situation and the effort that was made by seniors Corrections officials to provide the information.

So what we have done, what our position is, what my position is as minister, is that I have asked Mr. Hughes, very specifically, to look at this matter and to make a judgment, to make some comment about how this was done and whether or not anything unlawful or unreasonable was done in the granting of the temporary absences. Nothing has changed from my earlier comments and earlier discussion on that point. One can only imagine or suppose where the member for St. Johns is trying to go with this. So I again tell him that nothing has changed, and we certainly will be looking to Mr. Hughes for his comments.

Mr. Mackintosh: When did the deputy become aware that TAs, for one, had been granted, not only to those brutalized, but to other individuals, due to the space issue?

Mrs. Vodrey: The deputy informs me that he was informed about inmates released for reasons other than, as his notes indicate, being brutalized, that the timing of that was after the murder at Inwood.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister today have information as to the total number of individuals released due to the space constraints, whether on TA or because those individuals were deemed to be at end of sentence?

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I refer the member to the fact of the complexity of the answer that he is seeking through what appears to be a very simple question, and it is genuinely complex. I am told again by consulting with the senior officials who are here, that the number in the four-week period which I gave him last Tuesday, April 26 to May 21, is 172, but that number 172 is not broken down into which inmates were released as a result of space pressures, which inmates were released on TA for other reasons. The number that we have endeavoured to provide is the number of inmates who were released on temporary absence.

We have broken down for the member, and I believe I gave him an update last week, the number in types of temporary absences. We also noted at that time the numbers whose sentences had expired as a result of having been released on temporary absence sentences now expired. So we are not able to provide for him the specific number that he seeks. We did attempt to provide the very best information possible, that people in Manitoba had been seeking and wanted to make sure that we had provided the most complete answer possible. That is what we did provide last weekend, and that number, 172, for that four-week period remains the same.

Mr. Chair, I am also reminded that that number is for all correctional institutions across the province.

Mr. Mackintosh: Again, my question is not directed to TAs but to those who are deemed to be entitled to early release. I wonder if the minister has that number now, because last week she said she did not yet have that number.

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I am informed that our focus was on temporary absences--I know the members knows this--that early release is a statutory obligation. The law refers to early release, but, in fact, the sentence expires as has been explained to me by senior Corrections officers and that they did not focus on, then, individual numbers which were released according to law, so I do not have further information for him on that number.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister tell the committee how many correctional officers are currently on stress leave?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that that is a very difficult number to provide because it appears to change. Some individuals are not reporting according to concerns about stress, and then they return. Then they do go back to work. Then other people who were at work do not report for work.

So it is very difficult to give a single number because it is not as if there is a certain fixed number of people who are on an extended stress leave, but, instead, that number fluctuates frequently of people who, as I said, were working who may not be working, and people who were not working who have now come back to work. So I am not able to provide the member with that number.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering if it is the same answer then for those who are on stress leave from Headingley.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that there is no static answer for any of the institutions, that the answer is the same as I previously gave the member.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister tell the committee the numbers of those individuals, the last date for which those numbers are available? How many are not showing up for work because they have a medical certificate or medical opinion that they are not fit to return to work at this time?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that we do not have that information. We can attempt to provide that snapshot for one period in time when we are next together, if that would be helpful to the member. But I would like to stress that, as he knows, we are dealing with a back-to-work committee at Headingley, and there would not be names provided, and that, again, people are returning to work or did return to work, according to the agreement that was struck. So I would not be able to provide him with details about any specific person or anything that might cast an individual in a certain light. You know, one wonders what it is he is trying to get at, what person he might want to point out to the public. I do not know, but, anyway, I will not be providing information that will identify a person. He thinks it is funny, and we do not think it is funny. So we will just have to carry on with the questioning and see where it goes.

Mr. Mackintosh: Of course, I was asking for numbers and not names. Is it the understanding generally of the minister that there is a high absentee rate, for whatever reason, of correctional officers, particularly those who were assigned to Headingley before the riot?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed by the senior correctional officers that there was one shift in particular in which there were some correctional officers injured, and there were some correctional officers considered to have been traumatized by the event. But, as I have said, we have now coming back, or returned to work, some officers who were off; and, we have some who were not off who are now off. So it is very difficult to give him numbers. I guess I am trying to figure out what it is he is really asking here, what it is that he would like from us.

I have spoken in the past about some of the supports that have been offered to correctional officers. I think the most important factor, though--or what I consider one of the most important factors--is the return-to-work committee at Headingley. I understand it now is referred to as Workplace Health and Safety Committee, which is dealing with the concerns and getting our institution back up and running. That, of course, is one of the most important things when we are dealing with any population issues or actually correctional officers returning to work.

So that is the status right now. We look for continued development and improvement in that area, and, to my knowledge, that is happening. We will provide an update where possible.