SENIORS DIRECTORATE

The Acting Chairperson (Mike Radcliffe): The next set of Estimates to be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates for the Department of Seniors, Seniors Directorate. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement for the next set of Estimates? The will of the committee?

An Honourable Member: No.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Proceed. Is the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) ready to proceed? Does the honourable minister for this department have an opening statement?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister responsible for Seniors): Well, certainly. Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure, as Minister responsible for Seniors, to present the 1996-97 budget Estimates for the Seniors Directorate. Seniors are the fastest growing segment of our population. From 1891 to 1921 about 5 percent of Canadians were seniors aged 65 and over. This number has increased dramatically with the 1991 census estimate showing the proportion increased to 12 percent. Projections for the future are that by the year 2020, with most baby boomers retiring or retired, seniors will comprise an unprecedented 17 percent of the Canadian population.

This growth in the number of seniors is occurring not only because of the aging of the population segment but also because of increasing life spans of both men and women. We must pay attention to this ongoing demographic shift and its complications for governments in order to ensure that the future brings adequate personal security for seniors. In Manitoba the census estimates that seniors are 13.4 percent of the Manitoba population. By the year 2016 this proportion will increase to 23 percent or higher. Governments at all levels in partnership with communities and seniors have a role to play in examining the issues and then identifying solutions in order to provide seniors access to safe and supportive living environments.

The role of Seniors minister is a very important and challenging one, that of preserving and enhancing the quality of life for older members. Let me assure you that I take this responsibility with great enthusiasm.

I might just ask the Chair, what are the rules of sitting for tonight? Till what time?

Mr. Chairperson: I believe the committee has agreed to sit until 10:30.

Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much.

Our government, through the Seniors Directorate, is committed to working with seniors to find solutions to address these issues. Today I would like to outline the directorate's activities for the past fiscal year and highlight some of the new initiatives planned for the coming year. My staff at the Seniors Directorate work with me to ensure that seniors needs and concerns are considered when government policy and programs are developed. As you are aware, the directorate gathers information regarding seniors issues in a variety of ways but essentially from seniors themselves. The directorate has established close working relationships with seniors groups throughout Manitoba. This allows the directorate to have an ongoing dialogue with seniors on major issues of concern as well as providing information and other resources. The Seniors Information Line continues to be well used by seniors providing them with information assistance and referral. The types of calls received reflect the issues and concerns of seniors throughout Manitoba. In 1995 there were 2,031 individual calls. This does not include the additional calls made by the directorate on follow-up to various departments.

The following are some of the highlights of 1995. In June 1995, during Seniors Month, special celebrations were held in Virden and Winnipeg. This directorate works with seniors groups planning these events. The directorate who is supportive of a business library made its resources library available to the public in the summer of 1995. Printed materials and videos are now available for loan to individuals and groups throughout Manitoba. In August 1995, the directorate completed a new computerized housing directory to assist seniors looking for a place to live. The directory was developed as a result of requests from seniors on the Seniors Information Line and as consultation meetings held by the directorate and the Manitoba Council on Aging.

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Approximately 7 percent of all calls received by the directorate were questions related to housing. This information directory lists rental units, condominiums, townhouses, mobile homes and seniors residences around the province. The list includes housing available for rent, purchase or life lease. Directorate staff supported the Manitoba Council on Aging in undertaking consultations with individual seniors and seniors organizations on issues of concern in the fall of 1995. The directorate provides several abuse training workshops in the fall of 1995 for professionals working with the elderly. Directorate staff conducted two sessions, elder care and the organization and working with abused elderly persons, and the Manitoba Health Organization conference in Winnipeg, November 1995. Several presentations on retirement and positive aging were held for various organizations in the fall of 1995. Emergency information for seniors, a brochure on emergency preparation was revised and distributed.

The minister's column in Seniors Today continues to receive a very positive response. Seniors have told us that the information is useful and helpful. In addition, the directorate published the bi-annual seniors newsletter, The Seniors Source, first introduced in May of 1994. This newsletter has assisted us in keeping in touch with seniors, and, more importantly, has assisted seniors in keeping informed on current government programs and services that could assist them. Our next addition will be ready for distribution to seniors and seniors organizations in June of this year.

As you can see, 1995 was a very full and busy year, and 1996 will continue with a busy schedule. Initiatives for '96-97 include, the directorate staff had completed a trainers course and will be developing workshops for interested businesses, organizations and government departments. These workshops, entitled Through Other Eyes, will be designed to raise the awareness of participants to the special needs of aging adults and encourage change to resolve difficulties experienced by seniors and persons with disabilities. Working with Manitoba Consumer and Corporate Affairs, law enforcement groups and other organizations and agencies to explore means of raising seniors awareness to potential hazards such as scams and frauds, for example, alert bulletins will be circulated to seniors services, housing, seniors centres and possibly media outlets.

The overwhelming response to the original brochure Questions to Ask Your Doctor and Pharmacist prompted not only a reprint but has been updated to include additional information to assist seniors.

The directorate, in partnership with the Community Legal Education Association produced a brochure Legal Information Guide for Seniors that includes information on wills, estates and powers of attorney and health directories. These publications were recently distributed to seniors organizations across the province. In the first year alone, the directorate received over a thousand requests for the brochure. The directorate will be developing a second legal information guide to address topics such as door-to-door sales and financial abuse.

Federal-provincial territory initiatives include sharing information and developing several topics of concern to seniors such as managing the shift to community service, safety and security for seniors for the 1996 meeting of the ministers responsible for Seniors in New Brunswick, working with the federal and provincial governments to recognize the United Nations International Year of Older Persons in 1999.

As you are aware, the Manitoba Council on Aging began reporting to the Minister responsible for Seniors in May of 1994. This has been an extremely positive move for the Council on Aging.

The Manitoba Seniors Directorate and the government of Manitoba, with the council reporting directly to the Minister responsible for Seniors, I am able to hear firsthand their issues and concerns of seniors in Manitoba. The direct link between minister and council ensured that seniors advice, experience and knowledge are available to government in formulating policies and programming. It is extremely important that seniors have direct input on issues that affect them and in the future.

Initiatives for 1996 and '97 include holding community consultations. These consultations provide an opportunity to consult with seniors and other organizations identifying needs and concerns of seniors throughout Manitoba and recommend ways to achieve these more efficient and effective services and inform seniors about the Manitoba Council on Aging.

To date, the council has met with seniors in Gimli, Steinbach, Portage la Prairie and Brandon. Meetings in Dauphin, Beausejour and Flin Flon are to be held in 1996. Information in fact information sheets, the council and the directorate will be working in partnership to put together a series of fact sheets for Manitoba seniors. Topics include apartment security, purse snatching, lost or stolen wallet and card replacement and tips on moving.

Recognition project, this project will honour individuals, organizations or businesses who through exceptional acts or efforts benefit seniors or whose valuable services reflected a positive attitude toward older Manitobans.

In closing, I believe that the Seniors Directorate and the Council on Aging have and will continue to have an important role to meet the needs of Manitoba seniors. We are all working together in partnership to benefit seniors. It is important for government, community and organizations to share ideas and develop a common vision for the future, to have a plan that will provide for the full participation of seniors in all aspects of our society, one that protects their dignity and choice and independence. Thank you very much.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): We thank the minister for these comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Broadway, have any opening comments?

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): To alter the mood of the Estimates proceedings, let me start with a joke about the exasperated medical doctor who, upon hearing constant complaints of a 90-year-old man about his left knee, said, for heaven's sake, Morris, act your age, what do you expect? And Morris replied, look here, doc. My right knee is also 90 years old and it does not hurt.

If such conversation meant anything at all, it dispels the myth that aging means illness. Aging does not necessarily mean sickness or senility or sexlessness.

If aging does not mean sickness, senility or sexlessness, how are we to explain the process of aging?

Under the general category of the so-called error theories of aging is the wear-and-tear theory which suggests that the human cells lose the ability to repair the damaged deoxyribonucleic acid, known as DNA, substance that passes genetic information from one cell to the next. Consequently, the cells become less efficient. They become error-prone in carrying out the vital functions such as metabolic rate at which the cells convert nutrients into energy which cells need to live and to reproduce. Logically then, if we reduce the caloric intake of human beings, we may slow down the metabolic rate, and if we slow down the metabolic rate we slow down the rate of damage to the cells; hence, theoretically, we also lengthen the human life span.

In conversation with many seniors on many occasions, particularly those seniors who appear to me healthy and fit, I invariably ask them this question of how often and what do they eat. From the answers that I gathered, I came to the generalization that healthy people eat very little, although they may eat more frequently, and they mostly eat little bits of fish or chicken or vegetables, and most of them eat mostly fruit.

Another set of theories, known as the program theories of aging, posits that genetically determined changes are there according to some internal clock that starts ticking at our conception and is programmed to run only for so long and no more, with the genetic code carrying out the specific instructions to facilitate the processes of growth, maturation, decline and, eventually, death.

About 25 years ago a certain Dr. Leonard Hayflick and his associate found that embryonic human cells in tissue culture have inherent capacity to divide only about 50 times and then they die. This is known as the Hayflick phenomenon which rules out immortality among human beings made of flesh, skin, blood or bones.

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One version is that the DNA coil to form a helix of a constant or diminishing circumferences around beads of proteins to form a superhelix which work like a clock spring, slowly ticking away biological time which then goes through a genetic switch from growth to its peak and then to decline. Given this programmed clock theory of aging, how are the specific instructions of the internal genetic clock communicated to the cells of the human body?

Along with the hormones like estrogen, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone produced by the adrenal glands, the human body has an immune system based on the thymus gland which is most efficient during our childhood and adulthood in recognizing and counteracting invaders that enter the human body like viruses, bacteria and toxins. This organ, the immune system, decline in efficiency and effectiveness among older people, which explains why older people increase susceptibility to infections and to a variety of illnesses.

Also, as a result of the decline of the immune system, the body is less able to distinguish what is the self of the human body and what is the nonself. Therefore, there are certain malignant cells that have all the opportunity to grow in our old age, and they get themselves established in the body, and the self cannot recognize them as nonself and therefore they develop into tumours and cancers.

Now, if this is the process by which people age, what are the observable changes in our bodies that we can observe in an almost predictable way according to this biologically programmed clock theory of aging? Well, if you observe, in the process of aging, our hair either falls off--the minister had lots of them, used to when he was young, but now they are few--or in my case, they stay there but they turn gray.

The epidermis of the skin becomes dry, and the middle layer of the skin becomes less elastic causing the skin to sag and to wrinkle, and the protective pigments forming cells that absorb the sun's harmful ultraviolet rays are reduced by approximately 15 percent for every decade of life that we live, increasing our susceptibility to skin cancer. So, you know, the older you get, the more you expose yourself to the sun, the more risk you are taking.

What happens then to the vital organ of the human body as people go through this process of aging? Amazingly, in the absence of any disease at all, the human heart, the central generator in our physical body, amazingly, the human heart of a normal 80-year-old person who is not sick at all can pump blood as effectively as a normal 30-year old person. However, as people grow older, of course the blood vessels of the human body lose their elasticity.

If the lung of the individual is uninfected, it is a healthy lung. Between the ages of 30 and 80, this lung loses an average of 40 percent of maximum breathing capacity as a due course in the aging process, and as the human body gets older, the liver and the kidney lose some 50 percent of their efficiency. Therefore the drugs that we imbibe, the alcohol we drink, remain longer in our body, so the older you get, the less you should drink.

The bone mass which reaches its peak at the age of 30 begins to decline by 1 percent every year of our lives until osteoporosis, which is a state of bone structure, sets in when the bones become thin and brittle. Osteoporosis, of course, is accelerated by such habits like cigarette smoking and heavy alcohol intake, resulting in fractures, particularly of the hips, with crippling effects for some of the elderly.

If we know all these things, what are the ways by which we can prepare for these as we age? How can we overcome the debilitating effects of aging, particularly the onslaught of sickness or disability?

Among the various ways of preparing for this and preventing old age from being a period of sickness, a period of senility and sexlessness and despondency and depression are the following. First, we modify our diets. Second, we must appreciate and, of course, implement moderate exercise, and third, we must develop a positive style of life characterized by a set of personal habits.

With respect to diet control as a way of counteracting the effects of aging, the older we get, the more we should avoid eating meat, but we should eat more of fish and chicken, more of vegetables and greens, more whole grains and fruits. If you are used to eating meat and would not survive without it, if you are a meat-eating person--I call them carnivores--eat game meats such as buffalo and venison meat. A four-ounce serving of buffalo steak contains only two grams of fat compared to 10 grams of fat in a similar four-ounce serving of sirloin beefsteak. As we grow older, the more we should avoid saturated fats from animal sources such as fat from swine meat, otherwise known as pork, despite our advertisement in Manitoba Pork.

The older we get, the more we should concentrate on food items that have nutrients, foods that are rich in vitamins and minerals, food that even has curative powers, for example, garlic. Of course, some of you do not like the smell of garlic, but garlic kills bacteria. It stops infection. It is estimated that one medium-sized clove of garlic packs the antibacterial effect of about 10,000 units of penicillin. Garlic reduces blood cholesterol; it prevents blood clots which cause strokes or heart attacks, so you can see the importance of that little item that you can get anywhere.

Onions, they lower cholesterol, they stimulate digestion, and, when you eat them raw, it detoxifies your human body. There are some onions that are sweet, Spanish onions, for example. Leeks are vegetables that are related to onions. Leeks are rich in potassium, in magnesium, in silica, in iron, in calcium, Vitamins B and C. Leeks and onions are both laxatives, diuretics; they also aid digestion with a warming and relaxing effect on the stomach.

It has been said that the historian Pliny wrote about Emperor Nero eating only leeks and oil when he wanted to keep his throat healthy for singing purposes, for singing performances. So he only ate oil and leeks. Probably these leeks explain Nero's stamina in fiddling and in singing while Rome burned.

Turnips are good. They are a good blood purifier and natural diuretic. They work on the urinary system, helping to eliminate the toxins that we accumulate. In Canada, one traditional folk use of turnip is to drink the turnip juice to treat stomach ulcers and to eat the pulp of the root for good working bowels.

Whole natural grains like rice, wheat or barley are desirable sources of carbohydrates and energy. It is good for all the people to develop a liking for whole wheat pita bread, particularly. Whole wheat pita bread, like whole wheat bread, is more nutritious than bread made from refined wheat. Pita bread has almost no fat, and they contain only about 75 calories per ounce.

Fresh fruits are another group of food that contain vitamins and minerals needed by the human body, for example, cantaloupes, bananas. Cantaloupe is rich in potassium, which strengthens the heart of the muscle. Half a cantaloupe contains double the amount of Vitamin C in one orange fruit.

Having discussed the factor of diet as a way of overcoming the debilitating effect of aging, the next factor I mention is exercise, moderate and regular exercise. This is essential in order to live a healthy, satisfying and long life. There are activities that we can do on a regular basis without taking any extra time from our routine of work. For example, climbing the stairs instead of using elevators, biking along designated routes, walking. These are forms of exercise that we can do without spending extra time like going to a gym or for a physical workout.

For example, walking 20 minutes a day for at least three times a week, three times a week is a good regimen to follow. If anyone wants to lose weight, then he or she should walk a total extra 20 minutes more.

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An Honourable Member: That is 40.

Mr. Santos: Yes, if you do that, then you will lose your weight, but if you maintain one, then you will just maintain yourself.

In this connection--why? Why is this so? There is in physics, in science, a law known as the second law--the first law of thermodynamics. It states: If we consume more calories than the amount of calories that we can burn up in exercise, the excess become fat and it is stored in our body. Therefore, if you want to lose weight, we must consume fewer calories and then we must burn them up.

To be more specific about walking as a form of exercise, walking an extra 20 minutes a day will burn up about 100 calories. In the course of a month, of course, you will be shedding at least one pound a month. If you increase that 20 minutes to one hour a day, you will be losing at least three pounds a month. Can you imagine how much a year you will lose?

Finally, a third factor that contributes to good health in old age--and I am trying to say this so that everyone may hear--is the development of a healthy and desirable lifestyle. A healthy and desirable lifestyle for a person of any age, but particularly for senior citizens, is that kind of life that is characterized by healthy personal habits. A desirable lifestyle is both an attitudinal as well as a behavioural state of mind that contributes to a pleasant and good quality of life. The earlier in life we develop such desirable lifestyles and we nurture them and maintain them, the longer period we can have a pleasant and good quality of life as an individual on this planet Earth.

Therefore, what is the best route to follow? One good attitude is of course to do everything in moderation. Do what you love doing, but do it moderately, so long as it does not negatively impact on your physical and mental well being. Do things and develop the practice of having a well balanced sense of humour. When it comes to loss and adversities in life, we need to do the best we can and to accept the facts as they are. Let us develop and maintain outside interests by engaging in habits that stimulate our mind and that engage our body physically. One form of exercise that may be recommended, of course, one that offers a moderate amount of resistance, is exercises between couples. It might have an exhilarating effect, physically, emotionally and mentally.

But we must avoid excessive stress, and we must manage the stress when it comes. We should develop good quality relationships with someone to whom we can give support, so they can return it to us when we feel that the world is closing upon us. The older we get, the greater is our need to be active and to stay active, socially, politically, as well as physically. Sedentary behaviour like watching television most of the time of the day or night among seniors is not necessarily good. It will be against our object of having physical fitness and having a good quality of life in old age.

In terms of having some joy in life, of course a little red wine can have beneficial effects, but we must not take more than three alcoholic drinks within any 24-hour period, because alcohol can have debilitating effects upon us, both physically and mentally. If we find ourselves in the category called smokers, then we should stop smoking and right now. Eighty-five percent of lung cancers are caused by smoking.

I will tell you some personal information right now. My brother who is younger than me, I warned him a long time ago not to smoke. He can hardly breath now. He is now in the Foothills Hospital in Alberta on oxygen, and I may have to leave and see him before anything happens. I was afraid it might happen before the session ended, and I was waiting and waiting.

Whatever happens to our lives, we are always a contributory to it. Heart disease, most of it being the direct result of smoking, kills more than two million people every year. We should exercise regularly because exercise improves heart and lung functioning and helps us reduce stress which also adversely affects the efficient functioning of our immune system. Regular exercise means 30 minutes activity that increases the heartbeat a little bit more and is done at least three times a week.

Let me conclude by saying that the kind of life we should lead in old age is largely a product of our own choices, a product of our own doings. One obvious reason why many people are not having successful aging and are in poor health condition is it is the cumulative result of their unhealthy style of living characterized by addictive smoking and heavy drinking. Sometimes the root cause of unhappy old age is personal financial problems. Again, this sad state of affairs might have been the product of one's riotous and extravagant spending, including addiction to gambling and financial gaming. Negative attitudes in life, lack of activity, perhaps plain ignorance, might constitute the other variables that lead to an unhappy and unhealthy life in old age.

Psychosocial factors, positive or negative, have a lot to do with successful or unsuccessful aging. One significant factor is our own control by which we measure our own sphere of autonomy. Control over many aspects of one's environment involves one's ability to make decisions regarding choice of activity, the method, the manner, the timing, the pace and other features of our own activities. Older people generally experience a reduction in control for a variety of reasons like physical impairment, reduced financial capacity, institutional living arrangements.

For example, in a study involving a comparison of the senior residents of two retirement settings, residents of low-constraint retirement villages were found to be more in control of their own activities and their own lives, and so they perceived themselves to be so. They scored higher in life satisfaction and adjustment than residents of a relatively high-constraint setting of a retirement home.

In another study, a total of 72 subjects, with an average age of 78 years old, they were randomly assigned to three groups. The first group was given verbal encouragement in individually completing a simple jigsaw puzzle. The subjects of the second group were given direct assistance, and the subjects of the third group received neither encouragement nor assistance beyond the initial instructions.

The results showed significant improvement to the encouraged group, significant deterioration to the directly assisted group in the form of learned helplessness, but no change for the third group that received no experimental treatment. Therefore, encouragement is control-enhancing, direct assistance is control-reducing. Some sense of control is essential for the well-being of the elderly, as it is essential for people of any age.

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Support is another psychosocial factor that has a positive effect on self-reported well-being. What does support mean? Support means the enhancement of the material, informational emotional resources. It is more likely than not that providing help, care and material assistance from family members and friends of the elderly, before and beyond the requirements of professional medical services, is directly conducive to healthy and good quality of life at old age. If a senior has a personal network of people who encourage better nutritional practice, then health promotion will be increased and the risk of ill health is reduced.

Therefore, in a nutshell, to stay healthy longer, gerontologists strongly recommend that seniors stay out of the sun, stop smoking, cut back on alcoholic drinks, eat intelligently and exercise regularly. Thank you, that is my opening statement.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

At this time, we would invite the minister's staff to take their places in the Chamber. Does the minister have any staff present for his department? If so, would the minister's staff, please enter the Chamber? Is the minister prepared to introduce his staff member present this evening to the committee?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, it is my pleasure to introduce the Seniors Director Kathy Yurkowski.

Just for clarification, the Chairman might be able to clarify, is it the understanding that we are finishing the Estimates of Seniors at 10:30?

An Honourable Member: Yes.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): That was the information that I was given. I was led to believe that this section would be finished at 10:30, and I would invite the critic of this section to respond.

Mr. Santos: I will tell you when it is 10:30.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): I think, Mr. Minister, we have had some response from the critic, and I guess we would proceed at this point.

Mr. Reimer: If there is a running over of a short period of time after the allocated time of 10:30, whether there might be a willingness to not look at the clock for a few minutes for continuation of questioning for a short period after, just in case we get into a discussion. Is there a willingness of the committee?

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Is there a willingness of the committee to ignore the clock and to proceed to complete the appropriate questioning?

An Honourable Member: I do not think so.

Mr. Santos: I would like to comply with the House resolution which states that these Estimates, according to the resolution presented in the Assembly, in the Chamber, start from 7:30 to 10:30.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The item before the committee is item 24.1. Seniors Directorate (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $345,800.

Mr. Santos: Since I only have about 10 minutes, may I say that I am looking only at the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, and I will refer to the pages I will ask the questions from.

On page 12, on the third sentence before the end of the page, it says that one of the things that the Seniors Directorate has been doing: “Conducts public consultation with seniors throughout the Province.” My question is this, in the immediate past fiscal year, what kind of public consultation has the Seniors Directorate conducted throughout the province?

Mr. Reimer: There have been consultations along with the Council on Aging in various locations across Manitoba. I can say that we have been in Dauphin, Steinbach, Brandon, Portage la Prairie, and we are going to Beausejour, I believe it is, within the next week or 10 days and then Flin Flon.

Mr. Santos: How is this conducted? How many people from your department went to these places and when, specific dates, time and place?

Mr. Reimer: I can supply the exact dates to the member. We do not have them in front of us right at this specific time, though.

Mr. Santos: I appreciate the minister's reply. I have to be very selective. Although I have lots of notes here, I only have a few minutes. Okay, on page 14, under Expected Results, Policy Analysis and Development, it says, “The expected results from the policy functions include: new initiatives to benefit seniors in Manitoba.” My question is, what are these new initiatives that the Seniors Directorate has come up with and is expected to result in benefits to seniors in Manitoba?

Mr. Reimer: I can point out to the member that we have just initiated a program called Through Other Eyes, which is a simulation program of role playing, of taking this program into the workplace of various locations like, say, a bank or something like that and role playing with the individuals as to what and how they would feel if they were seniors and in the situations that they might encounter. We have also got brochures that we have set up and make available for seniors There are consultations going on continually regarding seniors and being a resource available for them at the phone and through various other aspects.

Mr. Santos: The second item there is about greater co-operation and consistency between departments in addressing seniors issues. The third talks about effective and appropriate government services for seniors. Can I have some specific example of the third kinds of effective and appropriate government services for seniors, a new one, I mean, in this fiscal year?

Mr. Reimer: I have the fortunate position of being the Minister of Housing and the Minister responsible for Seniors, and I see a fair amount of very close co-operation and co-ordination between the two departments. It is of great benefit, in a sense, that in fact just recently down in Niverville that we initiated a housing development because of the fact that there was property available through MHA that we were able to make arrangements with the seniors for the development. We also work very closely with the Department of Health and also the Department of Family Services, the Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, in concerns regarding seniors. There is a very close co-operation and co-ordination between the departments.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The hour is now 10:30. What is the will of the committee at this time?

Mr. Santos: I will obey the mandate of the House.

An Honourable Member: Pass.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The hour being 10:30 p.m., this section of the committee is recessed until 9 a.m--

An Honourable Member: You can pass.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Is it the will of the committee to pass the items? All right. The item is 24.1 (a) $345,800--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $191,600--pass.

Resolution 24.l: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $537,400 for Seniors Directorate for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1997.

The hour being 10:30 p.m., this section of the committee is recessed until 9 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday), at which time this section will be considering Estimates for the Department of Justice, Aboriginal Justice Initiatives and the Status of Women.

Committee is recessed.