Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Acting Premier (Mr. Downey). The public presentations over the last couple of evenings in committee were universal in their condemnation of the undemocratic and autocratic nature of this government in establishing regional boards. They are very critical of the fact that the government wants to proceed with patronage boards rather than elected boards and recommend very strongly that we proceed to have boards elected in the regions across Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, in fact, the government's own task force advisory committee report on page 16 makes a mandatory recommendation that 15 members of boards be established, that three of them be appointed by the government and 12 members be elected by the regions to reflect the diversity of the population within that region.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier, why have you rejected your own advisory committee report and why do you further reject the advice of the public to proceed with elected bodies rather than patronage bodies?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the Constitution of Canada places in the hands of elected people, members of the Legislative Assembly of the Legislatures across Canada, the responsibility for the administration of health services in those provincial jurisdictions. That is where the accountability is, and by virtue of regional health authority legislation, governments in various provinces have been delegating that authority to regional health authorities.

The honourable member asked this question I think yesterday, did not answer my question about whether he felt the regional health authorities ought to have the power to tax the people as well, which is something that goes with the concept of elected boards.

So I would like to know if the Leader of the Opposition is proposing, as New Democrats are wont to do--any kind of way they can gouge the people, they would like to do that--are they asking that regional health authorities be given that opportunity as well?

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we reject the concept of taxation for regional boards and we reject the user fees that are contained within the government's own piece of legislation. But we do embrace page 8 of the minister's advisory committee report, which is consistent with the public recommendations, where it states that the regional health authority will be accountable to its residents--this is the elected body, by the way--for equality of service delivery, and Manitoba Health providing the provincial and professional standards and be responsible for financial management.

The advisory committee of the minister dealt with the issue of financial management. We know that the government will establish the budgets. We just believe those budgets should be implemented by elected bodies rather than patronage bodies. Why is this minister choosing patronage over democracy?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I answered that question already. The honourable member wants to pick and choose recommendations from the Northern and Rural Health Advisory Council. Those he likes, he can press for; those he does not like, he can be silent about. That is, I guess, the nature of being in opposition, that you can try to be all things to all people.

When you are charged with the responsibility of providing leadership and providing health services for the people of Manitoba, we need to take a somewhat more responsible approach to our function as a government than the honourable Leader of the Opposition does in his role where one day he takes one position--and he is one of these people who has a position for everyone and they are not always the same. This is very common with honourable members, and in addition to that, they cannot even agree amongst themselves what the position ought to be.

Mr. Doer: I would remind the minister that it was he who said on June 5, 1995, in Hansard, not just rhetoric but in Hansard, that he was not opposed to boards being elected. This was June 5, 1995.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier, in light of the fact that people of all political stripes right across this province want to be able to elect their regional boards and operate within the parameters of the provincial budget as recommended by their own experts, will this government allow rural members to have hearings and public consultations outside of Winnipeg? Will they open up the democratic process and let people in rural and northern Manitoba vote for their regional representation or are they going to stick with this autocratic Premier and have only patronage recommendations and patronage boards here in the province of Manitoba? Shame on you.

* (1340)

Mr. McCrae: The newfound interest of the Leader of the Opposition in health care is refreshing, but it does not add up very well because it is clear that what he is talking about in terms of having public hearings and meetings all around Manitoba is something that has been going on for some three, four, five years. The honourable Leader of the Opposition is just waking up right now to a piece of legislation--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable Leader of the Opposition is just now waking up to the fact that we have important legislation before this Legislature to put into effect matters that have been talked about by thousands and thousands of Manitobans over the last few years, Madam Speaker. Something went off in his head and he is awake today, but it is really nice to see that. It is never too late to get in on the debate, and we welcome the honourable Leader of the Opposition to the debate.

Mr. Doer: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Health could read his own advisory committee report and stop taking cheap shots and deal with the substance of the reports.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the official opposition, I would remind all honourable members to pick and choose their words carefully.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

As a result of this minister's $824,000 cut to the Dauphin Regional Health Centre, our hospital board is now considering the closure of the operating room one day a week or for longer periods during the year. Further to that, they may also consider staff reductions.

Why is this minister continuing to cut funding to the Dauphin Regional Health Centre when in only two months' time the regional board is to have its own plan in place?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am moved to observe that it might have been well for the honourable member to raise this matter with the Prime Minister when he was in Dauphin, I understand yesterday, or I assume Marlene Cowling, the member of Parliament for that area, is available once in a while to hear the honourable member's entreaties about reductions in funding that are taking place from Ottawa.

As I hear honourable members in this House raise questions like this, I think that, well, maybe they live in some world other than in Canada where the reality is that the federal government, the federal partner in medicare, is removing from the social services envelope for Manitoba some $200 million. This is a reality. The honourable member comes to this place and pretends it does not exist. It would be nice if I could wish it away like the honourable member does, but I cannot as a Minister of Health. Like other ministers across this country, we have to realign our health services to make sure that they will be there for future generations.

* (1345)

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, Jean Chretien is not the Minister of Health; Jim McCrae is.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Dauphin that no postamble is required prior to a supplementary question. The honourable member for Dauphin, to pose his question now.

Mr. Struthers: Is it this minister's plan to so disgust the current hospital board members and their volunteers that they throw up their hands and make way for this politically appointed regional board?

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member is right, that the Prime Minister is not the Health minister for the province of Manitoba, nor for any other province. It might be interesting if he put himself in the shoes of a Health minister for a day or two as he tries to carry out his function as the Prime Minister of this country. That is one of the greatest frustrations we have, Madam Speaker, is that the federal government, in its requirement to reduce its budgetary spending, is choosing to do so in the area of transfers to provinces for services to people.

It would be very nice if the federal government understood what it is like actually to try to run a health system. I would invite the honourable member to join me in inviting the Prime Minister of this country perhaps to put himself in the shoes of a provincial Minister of Health for a day or two to get a little flavour for what it is like to try to run a quality health system with a partner who seems to be running away all the time instead of joining us and helping us resolve the problems.

Manitobans, Madam Speaker, do not throw up their hands. Manitobans embrace challenges because they care about the health of future generations.

Mr. Struthers: Does this minister realize, while he whines about the Prime Minister, that his cuts at the Dauphin Regional Health Centre have caused three doctors to leave our area in the last short while?

Mr. McCrae: I remind the honourable member that in 1995-96, the total spending in health in the province of Manitoba rose by $60 million over the previous fiscal year. The honourable member and his colleagues in this House talk every day about cuts, but the last time I checked, $60 million more is up, not a cut but up. It is in that kind of a framework that we have been working actual over actual, $60 million additional, so the honourable member--it is certainly appropriate to raise issues related to the Dauphin Regional Health Centre in the same way that it is appropriate for the member for Brandon East to raise issues related to Brandon General Hospital, but I remind the honourable member for Dauphin about their experience with the New Democrats. He might sit with the honourable member for Brandon East and find out what it must have felt like to be the local member in Brandon when his government ordered the closure of 40 beds in 1987 of the Brandon General Hospital.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): This morning in committee we had a document tabled from the MTS financial advisory group, the document on which the decision to sell MTS was based, which appropriately enough--their address was 161 Bay Street, Toronto, Ontario. We also learned that the minister--MTS never did a single internal study on the privatization part of the decision.

Madam Speaker, what is even worse is the minister confirmed that RBC Dominion securities, CIBC Wood Gundy securities, and Richardson Greenshields, who prepared this report, will also be selling the shares of MTS when it is privatized. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for MTS, he has now had some time to reflect on that, whether he will perhaps recognize that it is a conflict of interest for the three investment bankers based on Bay Street who recommended the sale of MTS to now be profiting from its sale.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): As we told the member in committee this morning, certainly three firms that he has named were commissioned to do an analysis of MTS in terms of financial challenges it faces and make recommendations to how we would recapitalize that corporation in the future--they came back with recommendations which the government has acted upon and introduced the legislation in front of this House.

Madam Speaker, these are professional people. The member tries to allude to some conflict of interest. I do not believe one exists, and we have made it well known that we want the availability of people to purchase the shares, very widely made available in Manitoba through all the financial institutions in Manitoba.

This is a delicate matter. It requires the very best of professionals, and I believe that the people responsible are very capable, intelligent and responsible people to do it.

* (1350)

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I will ask the question again: Will the minister not recognize that something that would be totally illegal, for example, for members of the Legislature to do, be considered a conflict of interest, that if that member was involved in such a conflict he would lose his seat? Should the same standard not apply to these three investment bankers, the three bankers that made the recommendations to sell MTS and now would be profiting directly from its sale?

Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, they were commissioned to made recommendations; the government made the decision. They are now engaged in the process of carrying out the privatization, which involves many professionals, many professionals in the legal process, in the accounting process that must be gone through as the legislation moves through here to ultimately make an application to the Securities Commission in Manitoba.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, on a new question: If the minister does not recognize that there are a lot of questions that have to be asked about the ethics of what is happening in the sale, I would like to ask the minister, who in committee this morning in response to questions involving the $400,000 advertising campaign and this recent document that is being sent throughout rural Manitoba which is just incensing many people in terms of waste of public resources--I wonder if the minister could explain his comments this morning when he referenced in committee, first of all, he said that this was because of what I have said and what our members have said throughout the province that they are spending $400,000, and will he also explain his comments that it was stimulating the advertising industry in Manitoba.

On what basis does he justify spending $400,000 of the people's money on this kind of political propaganda?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I think the member does understand that MTS's revenue is under considerable competition out there, a lot of challenges, a lot of other service providers wanting to take away the business.

MTS became aware that there were certain concerns out there about rates, service, future ownership, and Madam Speaker--

An Honourable Member: Why are you selling it then?

Mr. Findlay: Why are we selling it? Because that member when he was minister lost millions and millions of dollars of Manitoba telephone users' rates. We made a profit. He lost money and in the period '86-87, they had five Crowns that lost $317 million. He has no accountability or credibility in dealing with the public. They lost $48 million to Manitoba Telephone System. That is a challenge to the corporation, and they must inform the public that the concerns that are being raised out there are not real and that the corporation will be there in the future strong, and the rates will be controlled by the regulator. Services will be as they are today and in fact improved, and, Madam Speaker, MTS has a right to protect their rate base.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I will ask the question again. I want to ask the minister to explain how he considers it appropriate for this type of material to be sent out under the MTS letterhead when in fact it is clearly an attempt by this government to deal with the fact that they broke their word in the election. They are selling off MTS and they are using our money, the people of Manitoba's money, $400,000, to run a political propaganda campaign using the MTS corporation, our corporation, in the process.

Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, MTS has chosen to communicate with its rate base with this information. That member, of course, wants to challenge and say they should not do it. I take the position that, if they want to communicate with their customers, they can and they should. He is worried about $400,000; he does not ever want to talk about the $48 million that his government lost. Somehow I think the two numbers are far, far apart. They have a right to communicate with Manitobans, their ratepayers, the telephone users.

* (1355)

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, and I did not talk about the $60 million they blew on the Winnipeg Jets either.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member was recognized for a supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: My final supplementary and, again, to the Minister responsible for MTS: If he does not recognize this is unethical and it is wrong to use MTS in a political campaign, will he at least do the right thing and make sure that the bill for this particular document is not absorbed by MTS or the government of Manitoba, the people of Manitoba, but by the people who are really running the show in this whole issue, the PC Party of Manitoba? Will he not do the right thing and, if you are going to run a political advertising campaign, pay for it yourself and not abuse the people of Manitoba in the process?

Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, this is factual information; this is not political propaganda. It is about the telephone system meeting the challenges in the marketplace where competition is high, technological change is rapid and expensive. It is a process that they must do to communicate with their customers.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Acting Premier.

The Liberal Party has always stood up to defend the rights of children. However, this is not a question of politics but of conscience. Today is the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty and, according to Winnipeg Harvest, Manitoba has the highest child poverty rate in Canada, 24.1 percent of all children live in poverty. That represents 64,000 people.

Why has this government not chosen to commemorate this day?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question. It is indeed a very serious question and a question that I believe he should look internally to his own party to help answer that question.

The federal government chose a couple of years ago to commemorate International Year of the Family and spent a lot of time and energy and resource and effort to co-ordinate that kind of activity and all provinces came on board, Madam Speaker. This year, the federal government did not choose to organize or co-ordinate anything around the Year for the Eradication of Poverty because I am sure all provinces would have co-operated with the federal government in that venture.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): It is fine to blame somebody else, but this is Manitoba, Madam Speaker.

Why has this government done very little since the 1995 election to eliminate child poverty in Manitoba?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again, our government does take the issue of child poverty very seriously. One of the reasons we have embarked upon welfare reform and support for single parents, many of whom are on welfare and living in poverty, is to be able to train and to enter the workforce, recognizing and realizing that the best form of social security is a job and a way out of poverty.

Might I indicate to you that this is not only an issue in Manitoba? It is an issue that goes right across Canada and governments of all political stripes right across the country are working together and taking a leadership role in trying to develop an integrated child benefit. Right across the country ministers of social services and ministers of Finance, as I said, of all political stripes right across the country, are working very aggressively right now to see whether we can come up with an answer to some of the issues around child poverty.

* (1400)

Mr. Gaudry: Madam Speaker, to the same minister: What will this government do to eliminate this problem so we do not have this number of children living in poverty next year?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again I would indicate that it is not an issue that Manitoba alone is attempting to deal with, and any level of child poverty is an unacceptable level. We, in many areas within our government, are attempting to address the issue of child poverty.

I have said many times before that it takes a co-ordinated approach and we need to work together on this issue. I would not want to lay blame on anyone specifically around the issues of child poverty, but I would want to say that we as a community, we as a society, as a country and as a province need to work together on programs that will help to ensure that children do not go to bed hungry at night and that children are well nourished, well fed and loved, and we will continue along our efforts to ensure that there are programs in place that will help to do exactly that.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, 1996 is the International Year for the Eradication of Poverty. In spite of that, this government has done absolutely nothing to eliminate poverty and, in fact, has made it worse by forcing the City of Winnipeg to reduce the allowances for children. In Manitoba, 71 percent of single parents live in poverty, which is 11 percent higher than the national average.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what she plans to do to eradicate poverty, rather than make it worse, and does she understand the links between the cuts to essential services in health and the worsening problem of poverty? Why are they going to start charging user fees in health that is going to be a hardship for the poor who are not going to be covered by these essential services anymore and that is going to increase the problem of poverty in Manitoba?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I do thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me, again, the opportunity to indicate that many of the things that we are undertaking in the area of welfare reform will in fact reduce the dependency and break the poverty cycle and help people get into meaningful jobs that will in fact lead them out of poverty. I wish my honourable friends in the opposition would come on board and support the legislation that is before the House right now that will indeed provide and help to eliminate poverty. Organizations like the Mennonite Central Committee are working with us through Opportunities for Employment program that is helping to train people to enter the workforce. We have our Taking Charge! initiative which has--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Family Services, to complete her response.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. We have our Taking Charge! initiative which has in fact worked with and will continue to work with single parents to train them to enter the workforce, to help provide the child care support that needs to be available for women to enter the workforce. There are many things that are ongoing, and we will continue to focus our efforts and our energies on eradicating poverty.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister why she is making the problem of poverty worse in Manitoba, and point out that the executive director of Opportunities for Employment spoke against her welfare reform in Bill 36 at the committee recently, and ask her if she will listen to the advice that she is getting from her own staff including the Environmental Scan for Winnipeg Child and Family Services, dated August 28, 1996, in which the risk factors for children coming into care are enumerated, and Manitoba has the highest number of children in care per capita in Canada. One of the risk factors identified in this report, the statistics done by one of her own staff, says that being poor is a risk factor for being in care in a Child and Family Services agency.

Will you listen to the recommendations of your own reports and your own staff?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Indeed the issue of single parents living in poverty--adolescent pregnancies are high in Manitoba. We acknowledge that, and we recognize that as an issue that needs to be addressed. We are taking steps to address it. I am sure my honourable friend will want to support some of the initiatives that will be announced in the near future in order to try to co-ordinate and provide supports for--well, I guess what we would like to see is the number of teen pregnancies decrease in the province of Manitoba, and we will be working very aggressively to help facilitate that.

There are many meetings that are ongoing right now throughout our community to see how we can address that issue as a total community. But, Madam Speaker, we do have right now a review of our Child and Family Services Act. I would hope that members of the opposition might make presentation to that panel and provide some constructive solutions to some of the issues we are dealing with.

* (1410)

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice. The superintendent of--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns was recognized to pose a question.

Mr. Mackintosh: The superintendent of Headingley jail, who in a memo expresses no concerns about available beds for weekend inmates, has listed several jail improvements that the minister has still failed to deal with not just six months after the riot but over several years.

My question to the minister is, can the minister understand that, given the most basic, fundamental requirement that the authority of the courts and the law be underpinned, not undermined, there is no excuse for her failure to find space for inmates half a year later?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): We have heard eight scandalous, wrongful allegations from the member for St. Johns over the past approximately seven days, and he continues to add to them day after day. The member just continues to want to run--the member wants to run our correctional system from his seat in the Legislature as a member of the opposition. The member across the way totally fails to understand that Corrections needs to be administered, needs to operationally work with professional correctional officers, with a superintendent of Corrections who will make the decisions about when we are ready to receive inmates. We also have to work with the workplace health and safety committees, but it is not the first time that the member for St. Johns has put himself above and beyond the professionals in this province.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, would the minister take some leadership and then at least listen to the judges of this province who are nonpartisan and more authoritative than her, and realize what a terrible thing she has done, not just in failing to find space but not telling judges that she is not respecting their orders, a deed incompatible with her office.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, let the member not leave on the record an incorrect statement. Communication has gone to the judiciary, communication has gone to Prosecutions, the formal communication, and that is not new. But, as the Minister of Health said, they have woken up today; the other side is finally awake. Now they understand that that communication has, in fact, occurred, that formal communication has occurred. The public statements--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete her response.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The public statements, however, made, No.1, in the media release on April 26, the public statement in the Legislature, May 28, which in fact did not raise any concerns by members opposite and argued in open court on September 18 by a Crown attorney in my name, is in fact some public notice. So I have said from the beginning there should have been formal communication. There has now been.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, instead of flailing around and trying to blame everyone but herself--does the minister not comprehend that Parliament did its job, the victims did their jobs, the police, the prosecutors, the judges did their jobs but then along comes the Minister of Justice and pulled the rug out from under the whole system, something entirely contrary to the very reason for her office?

Mrs. Vodrey: Did the member for St. Johns do his job in a responsible way by raising eight wrongful, scandalous and untrue allegations in this House? If that is how he sees his job, I for one am particularly discouraged with his work in this House.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, while I am on my feet, I took a question as notice--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The minister is attempting to respond to a question taken as notice.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I took a question as notice yesterday for the member for The Maples (Mr.Kowalski) about women in the civil service. I would like to provide the House today with information that since our government has taken office in 1988, numbers of women in senior officer and equivalent classifications have increased by more than 28 percent. Women now comprise 23.8 percent of all executive positions.

I would also like to tell the members opposite that our record within the civil service shows that women are truly welcome at all levels of the civil service. For example, women received 54.35 percent of all promotions within the civil service and the women make up 45 percent of applicants for a position. They comprise 64 percent of all new appointments.

Madam Speaker, the member also asked what efforts have been made to assist women as they achieve these new positions. Well, government has been very proactive in facilitating and supporting flexible work arrangements, flexible hours and job sharing to enhance women's opportunities to participate in all career streams, and in my own Department of Justice, I have Crown attorneys participating in job-sharing arrangements.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): The construction by Home Depot along the banks of Omand's Creek is scheduled to start today or this week. The Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), his department has sent a letter to the Shindico representatives for Home Depot indicating five areas of concern, recommendations to reduce the detrimental environmental impacts of that development. Will the minister table the Environment's report on the Home Depot development and will he ensure--or what measures will he take to ensure that these are going to be followed?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I think our record in making sure that that particular creek has been taken care of over the years stands for itself and I can assure the member that we will examine any issues that are raised, and there will probably be ample opportunity for her to comment.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.