Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eighteen Grade 6 students from Crystal City Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Larry Hamilton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed).

Also, thirty-five Grade 5 students from Victoria Albert School under the direction of Mrs. Karen Boyd. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

Also, 25 first-year journalism students from Red River Community College under the direction of Mr. Donald Benham. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The First Minister has announced the re-formation of the Manitoba Water Commission to deal with the tremendously positive work that was conducted on behalf of Manitobans during the recent flood crisis and the continuing flood crisis and some of the concerns of a negative nature or concerns about action that was taken that resulted in flooding in various communities and how that happened.

A number of people that have talked to us are concerned, as you know, as we have raised before, about the cutting of roads and other blockage of drainage ditches and other measures, and they want to have an opportunity to present their views directly to the commission that the Premier has announced. We note today that the Premier has stated that this commission will determine whether public hearings will take place. I would like to ask the Premier today: Will he ensure that the people that have these concerns, the farmers in the Sanford area, the residents of Ste. Agathe, the people in Grande Pointe and other residents that have these concerns, Rosenort, will have the opportunity guaranteed to present their views in a public hearing process to this commission established by the government?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because this is an arm's-length commission, I do not think I could order them to do anything. However, it would be my intention to recommend to them that they do have open public hearings to hear the concerns of people expressed.

Mr. Doer: I thank the Premier for that recommendation.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on a related topic dealing with floods, it has been announced or suggested that the Prime Minister of Canada will be visiting Manitoba shortly to deal with--the headline said spreading of cash--but I know he will be dealing apparently with all kinds of issues related to compensation, prevention and other measures that are crucial to Manitobans at this time. The Premier has travelled with the Prime Minister and been with him during this crisis. Of course, Manitobans are concerned about the cutback of the federal government on the flood forecasting staff; some 70 percent are projected to be cut back. Did the Premier raise this with the Prime Minister, and can he inform us of any response we received from the Prime Minister?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have not been in communication with the Prime Minister during the course of the election campaign. The member may recall that he was here a day or so before the election campaign, 24 hours or so before the election campaign, and I do not believe that the issue of the federal cutbacks in staff was an issue at that time. In fact, I recall that it came up a little later, so I did not have the opportunity at that time to address the issue with him. I certainly will if I have occasion to be with him during the course of the next little while.

Mr. Doer: The federal lead minister for Manitoba has stated that he will be raising this issue of the cutbacks that are to take place in August 1997 with the federal government. Larry Whitney has stated that this is of great concern to Manitobans in terms of our ability to deal with future floods if these cutbacks take place. In a press release issued by the federal lead minister on May 5, when he announced the IJC consultations, he indicated that he was in contact with the Prime Minister on a daily basis. I would like to ask the Premier: Has he discussed this matter with Lloyd Axworthy? Has Lloyd Axworthy discussed this matter with the Prime Minister, and can we expect a reversal of a terrible decision to cut back on flood forecasting by the federal government in the Red River Valley?

Mr. Filmon: Well, Madam Speaker, the issue, of course, if it is a concern to Larry Whitney, I think it should be a concern to all Manitobans. I can only indicate that I have not had much contact with Mr. Axworthy because of the pressures that we have been under with respect to all of the matters that we have had to address with the flood, and he of course has been in an election campaign. I did hear the same media comment that the member opposite references, and I have already indicated that I am prepared to take that matter up with the Prime Minister.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): While I am on my feet, and I do think that this follows right along the course of questions that the member is asking. Yesterday he raised the issue of the cuts to the Avonlea Road and their possible implications on the flooding of Ste. Agathe. If I may, I would like to hand some maps to the member for his use and those of his members, and if I may briefly just go through an explanation of what did in fact happen in that area and what did ensue.

On April 28, 1997, Avonlea Road which runs one mile north of PR 305 was cut at two points just east of the floodway west dike in Section 22-7-2E. This location is about three miles west and a mile and a half north of Ste. Agathe. A cut was also made in the northeast Section 22-7-2E about a half mile south of the other cut. The cuts were made to reduce pressure and erosion on the west dike located nearby. The cuts were 50 to 100 feet long and would have allowed a flow of about 1,000 cubic feet per second through the road.

The important thing, and if the member can follow on the map, is that these cuts were already north of Ste. Agathe and the flow, both observed by the engineers for Manitoba Highways and for the Natural Resources department as well as myself personally when I was flying over it, was in a northeasterly direction, and in between the area of the cuts and Ste. Agathe is a height of land which would have prevented the water from flowing toward Ste. Agathe, so it is highly unlikely that it had any impact on Ste. Agathe. In fact, any extra water flowing northeast in the vicinity of the cut would cause lower water levels in the area south of PR 305 and would thus reduce flows across the railway into Ste. Agathe. The road cuts would therefore have served to reduce water levels in Ste. Agathe rather than raise levels, according to the engineering assessment.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): In the past several years it has been clear that the government has been attempting to consolidate services like obstetrics and other services at certain particular facilities. At one time they called it centres of excellence, then they changed the nomenclature, but the intent of this government has been to cut programs, to consolidate and to cut funding. Since the real reason that the Grace obstetrics might be closed is because the government is cutting $100 million out of hospital budgets in Winnipeg over a three-year period, I find it deplorable that the minister would shirk off responsibility on its soon-to-be-named but yet-no-legal-authority regional board. Will the minister outline what the government position is with respect to the possible closure of obstetrics at Grace Hospital, Madam Speaker?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I find it very disconcerting that the member for Kildonan would base the quality or the need of health care hospital services in the city of Winnipeg, or anywhere for that matter, strictly on the matter of how much we are funding or how many beds available whether they are needed or not. The number of births in the province of Manitoba, I think, in total, if memory serves me correctly, is somewhere around 17,000 a year, of which 12,000 are in the city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, hosts of changes in the way that deliveries take place, the practice around that, even the creation of The Midwifery Act and alternative means or places for delivery of babies are going to have a resulting change in hospital services. The Grace Hospital board of directors, for a variety of reasons, one of which is that the number of births have declined to just over a thousand a year at that particular facility, has recommended it be closed. We have asked that that not happen until the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has a chance to sort out and make decisions about a plan that they want to implement for the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why the government spent thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to one of the foremost experts in obstetrics, Dr. Manning, who released a report, who in his very report recommended that Grace Hospital remain open? Why did we do that? Why did we have a report by an expert who went in not wanting to keep Grace open but in fact recommended it stay open? Why did we do that and now the government for really financial reasons is changing that recommendation?

Mr. Praznik: The former Minister of Health points out to me that the member is not quite accurate again, that that in fact was his third choice in his report, but the question here is the needs in obstetric care are changing. They will continue to change, and a proper plan, for the meantime, of developing obstetric services within the city of Winnipeg is very important. I share with him, as well, some concerns that have been expressed about consolidating all of that service in just teaching hospitals. We recognize that there are other components, but the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, the first tranche of board appointments have been made. Their CEO is in place. They are getting up and running. We as a ministry, because we deal with funding for those facilities today, do not want decisions made until the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has had an opportunity to assess and make some of their own decisions in their planning. That is part of this interim year.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why they are reaching a decision and putting it on a board that is not even in place and has no legal authority and in light of the fact that the Manning report says on page 70, and I will quote: The model that the government is doing to close Grace is not supported by either obstetricians or pediatricians.

Madam Speaker, their own report recommends against it. Yet the minister is going ahead with it and sending it onto some board that is not even existent and has no legal authority.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I think the member for Kildonan is somewhat confused about position. The board of directors of the Concordia Hospital--and let us remember that under the faith agreement those facilities very strongly believe in governance and decision making--have made a recommendation to close that facility in June, that particular service. The Ministry of Health is involved in that, as in our responsibilities. When it was brought to my attention, I felt that is not the time--that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, who we have charged, are in the process of charging in this transition year with the responsibility for making those decisions on a city-wide basis, have a chance before a final decision is made to have the opportunity to review and look at the vision of how they intend to deliver obstetrics in the city of Winnipeg. In fact, I have asked for some time to take place so that kind of work can go on.

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Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, this coming long weekend, Manitobans will be again hit by drastic increases in park fees introduced by this government last year. Even while this government increases its own rainy day fund by hundreds of millions of dollars, it turns and it squeezes money out of campers who are looking for seasonal reservations and paying reservation fees that are 100 percent increased. They have doubled.

Why is this government doubling reservation fees, on top of all the increased fees introduced last year, on the backs of average Manitoba campers?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, we should remember that, as we dedicate as many dollars as we can make available, put as much effort as possible into improving the quality of the service and the experience available to the campers, we are in fact moving more and more to a model that allows us to recover more of our costs. In improving the reservation system, the member should remember that the old system had a fee charge, plus the callers had to pay their own long distance. Under the new program, all callers will be able to access it toll free.

Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, yesterday it was confirmed that the fees were going toward the contracting of a company known as Destinet. It turns out that this company is not actually based in Ontario, but it is based in California.

Why has this government got a contract with a California-based company, a company that is more accustomed to taking reservations for California state parks, not Manitoba provincial parks?

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, the member conveniently forgets that, in a tendering process, those who can provide the best service and are going to establish themselves in this province as a new service--the member chooses to ignore that aspect and simply wants to point out that this province is now going to receive an additional company operating right here in Manitoba.

Mr. Struthers: Will the minister indicate whether the increase in fees is to pay for this contract, and will he table this contract of this California company here in the Legislature so we can all see what this contract says?

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, the project to provide reservation services for campsites in this province was a tendered proposal. All of the competitive bidding aspects were respected, including, in this case, the company is going to establish here in Manitoba to provide this service. So not only do we get an improved service for our campsites, we get improved accessibility, we get more campsites listed. We now also have the opportunity to have more jobs in this province.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Data from Statistics Canada show that real average weekly earnings in the province of Manitoba, that is, after inflation has been taken into account, have declined by 4 percent since this government was first elected in 1988. This situation is not being helped by the current pattern seen in the first four months of this year where Manitoba lost 7,200 jobs in the higher paying sectors such as transportation, communications and utilities.

Will the minister acknowledge that average Manitobans are now earning less in real terms in 1996 than in 1988?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, no, I will not acknowledge that. I think what the member for Brandon East forgets to look at is after-tax income. The most recent statistics from Statistics Canada for after-tax income are for the year 1995. In fact, they just released that information some two weeks ago. It shows that, for Manitoba, a Manitoba family, the after-tax income in 1995 grew by 4.5 percent, more than double the Canadian growth rate and the second best performance in all of Canada. The reason for that is because this province has had 10 straight years with no growth in any personal income tax or other major taxes in our province.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question: The minister can select the statistics all he likes, but can he explain why the Canadian real average of weekly earnings, that is, after inflation, has increased by 2.1 percent between 1988 and 1996, while Manitobans have suffered a decline of 4 percent? Why are we going against the Canadian trend?

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Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, this is a common problem with the NDP. They never look at the issue after taxes, and that is probably the reason that they increased taxes more than any other government in Canada from 1981 to 1988: they did not realize what matters to Manitobans is what is left in their pockets after they have to pay the taxes. That is the importance of going 10 straight years without increasing taxes in Manitoba, in fact actually reducing personal income taxes in Manitoba back in 1989.

Today, for the benefit of the member for Brandon East, if you look at family incomes in Canada, Manitoba has the fourth highest family income in all of Canada. Those are the facts, and that is what is of benefit to Manitobans.

Mr. Leonard Evans: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker: The Minister of Finance conveniently ignores all those extra fees and charges that he has put on the people of Manitoba: nursing home rates, Pharmacare cost increases, elimination of property tax credits, increasing park fees, et cetera. Will the minister acknowledge that the relative wage position--and I am talking about the relative wage position within Canada--has deteriorated in this same period? We went from 91.6 percent of the Canadian average in 1988, and we are down to 86.2 percent in 1996. The latest data for 1997 places Manitoba nine out of 10 provinces, only after Newfoundland, in terms of wage increases.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, what I will acknowledge is that we have taken Manitoba from the highest-taxed province in all of Canada under the NDP back in 1987 to one of the lowest-taxed provinces in all of Canada today. That is what matters to Manitobans. I do not know why members opposite have so much difficulty comprehending and understanding. What matters at the end of the day is what Manitobans have left in their pockets, and that is where Manitoba has made huge improvements over the last 10 years. If you look at overall taxes in Manitoba over that 10-year period, they are actually down. That is the best tax performance of any province in all of Canada, probably the best tax performance anywhere in the world. Manitobans understand that; I just hope sooner or later members opposite start to appreciate and understand that.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The centralization of obstetrics is a bad idea for the province of Manitoba, in particular for the city of Winnipeg. What I would like to be able to do is to quote the former minister, Don Orchard, when we posed a question. His comments were: I have to tell my honourable friend, the Liberal Health critic, who is into rumour, innuendo and false conclusions, that this government has no intention of closing obstetrics in the Grace Hospital.

Madam Speaker, not to be outdone by that former minister, to quote from a letter from the previous minister, Minister McCrae, July 13, '95, and I would table the letter. My question to the Minister of Health is: Can he explain what has happened in the last few months that would change this particular letter in which the former minister stated: Regarding the delivery of obstetrical services in Winnipeg, this will confirm the Grace General Hospital will continue to be a site of delivery of obstetrical care?

What has changed? Why is this government supporting the Grace Hospital losing obstetrics?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have seen many members talk out of two sides of their mouths, and now the member for Inkster gets into that, because just a few weeks ago, before the flood, in this Chamber, he would come to this House and talk about the need not to centralize, how terrible the Winnipeg Hospital Authority was, we need the independent facilities to make decisions, so here now, when one of those facilities passes a resolution to close their facility, he comes here and he says: This is terrible; it is all your fault, Mr. Minister.

I recognize the fundamental point, that in a city of 650,000 people plus the hundreds of other thousands who use this city for a variety of their services, it is necessary to have a co-ordinated approach to delivering services. That is why we have created the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. I can tell the member that we have, since that resolution, asked the Grace Hospital not to proceed with that decision until they have had an opportunity to work with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority for the overall city plan. We have asked that, Madam Speaker. He should be speaking with the board of Grace if he wishes to criticize their decisions.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that Don Orchard, in his Action Plan, the former minister, Minister McCrae, were right in the letter dated July 13, 1995, that we should not be closing down the obstetrics unit, and this minister has to take responsibility for that. Follow the Action Plan. Think in terms of the broader picture of obstetrics in the province of Manitoba. This is a bad idea. Tell the Salvation Army and the community health board that this is a program that is worthwhile saving at the Grace Hospital and that this government will not accept the closure of it.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the fire and fury of the member for Inkster, he should perhaps go down and visit with the board of directors at the Grace Hospital, because just a few weeks ago in this Chamber he was defending their autonomous right to govern their facilities. He was defending the autonomous right of a variety of facilities. So if you want that kind of system, then live with the result.

The reality in the city of Winnipeg today is we are moving toward a centralized system with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. Obviously the Ministry of Health does have a role in working closely. We have been in touch with the administration of the Grace since their board passed that resolution, and we have asked them to put that on hold until the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority, which has now been appointed, has an opportunity to review and make their determination as to what is best to deliver obstetrics programs based on all of the work and studies that have been done in the past. That is what is going to happen.

Mr. Lamoureux: Is it now the government's policy not to follow recommendations set forth from this government's Action Plan that states that you want to increase services in our community health facilities? This is an area which we should be seeing expanding. Obstetrics should even be brought in to the Seven Oaks Hospital. We should not be seeing reductions. Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that or at least have the guts to say that he has thrown the Action Plan into the garbage can?

Mr. Praznik: There is no doubt that, in the delivery of a whole host of health programs and medical programs, that technology, demographics, a host of factors will continually result in changing in that program. What is critical for us as legislators, who are responsible ultimately to the taxpayers and people of this province, is that we have a mechanism and system of delivery that can adapt to changing need. From time to time that is going to result in shifts of programming.

In credit to the board of the Grace, one real problem that they have is that the numbers of births has fallen to just over a thousand. So there is a real issue there of whether or not that particular facility has enough births to justify where they are being. Those kinds of issues I want the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, on a system-wide basis, to work out and see what is best to deliver programming for 12,000 births in the city of Winnipeg.

What is ultimately important here is patient care, getting the best mix of services. I am not going to prejudge that today, but my responsibility is to set in place the system and structure that will make rational decisions, not political ones.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I took a question yesterday as notice from the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It was dealing with the proposed trade agreement on multilateral agreement on investment.

An Honourable Member: That was Crescentwood.

Mr. Downey: Crescentwood, I am sorry. Elmwood, he has kind of been a fixation. Let me make a correction, Madam Speaker. I have taken questions for the last two weeks from the member for Elmwood.

There may have been a misunderstanding in the questioning of the department when we were in Estimates. I can tell the member that there was a receipt of an early, early draft by the department--

An Honourable Member: Early, early.

Mr. Downey: An early draft--by the department on multilateral agreement on investment. There has been a copy received by the department, but as far as negotiations are concerned, to my knowledge there have not been any and they have been delayed, but we have received a copy of the early draft of that potential agreement.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I appreciate the minister's response to that question.

Madam Speaker, under that draft agreement, would the minister confirm that the sale of Manitoba HydroBonds, preferentially to Manitobans to fund that utility's capital expenses, would be essentially impossible under this new treaty? Would he confirm that?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, I will not confirm that, Madam Speaker, because it is so early in the negotiations. The Government of Canada have not entered into the agreement and there is no assessment at this particular time as to how it would in fact impact on the provinces.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that this is a very, very well-detailed draft and in fact is quite advanced and that under this draft most requirements now imposed by government, for example, in regard to the use of local labour or the sourcing of goods and services from Manitoba, as opposed to other jurisdictions, would not be allowed, would in fact be quite illegal?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, my previous answer holds.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister finally get up to speed with something that is going to affect the very basic policies of his government, and any future government, and that government's ability to make economic decisions within our sovereign rights in regard to the direction of our provincial economy?

Mr. Downey: Yes, I will, Madam Speaker, because at this particular point, it is very hypothetical whether in fact it will proceed or advance at all or not. If that were to actually take place, we will be fully up to speed.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my colleague for Brandon East has demonstrated the low-wage economy that this government is creating, low wages which must now take account of hundreds of dollars of user fees in public schools, huge increases in university and post-secondary fees, Pharmacare fees, home care fees, and the list increases. The other side of this is the low-skill economy that will be the long-term effect of the declining post-secondary enrollments which in some institutions are averaging 5 percent a year.

I would like the Minister of Education to inform the House what part the 20 percent increase in fees of the past three years, and the government's delay of 12 months of their election promise of a tax credit has played in the drop in enrollments in post-secondary education in Manitoba.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I hope the member will take a chance today to read the Free Press and read the article that indicates the very high level of skills being noticed by people employing graduates of our Manitoba system. Just maybe that is something that she might like to bring to the House and ask some questions about at another time.

I indicate that the tuition fees in Manitoba are the third best in the country for students, third lowest. I indicate there are so many vehicles for access to university here that make it a very attractive place to take post-secondary education. The 12.5 percent decrease over the last three years in universities is reflected in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons. First of all, there are more jobs available for people, and we know, statistically speaking--the member knows this; she is a historian--that whenever there is a large opportunity for employment, the enrollment in post-secondary institutions goes down and vice versa. We have increased enrollment in colleges and, Madam Speaker, we also have the 10 percent learning tax credit where students can get back 10 percent of their tuition.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister explain why, since 1988, the government has had no long-term plan to deal with student fees, no public input into the deliberations of the committee on fees she finally did appoint and no report after 18 months from that committee? Meanwhile, fees escalate and access to post-secondary education becomes more unequal for Manitobans.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, there is right now before the Council on Post-Secondary Education a report done by a committee of people appointed by this ministry to develop a tuition fee policy. That recommendation is now with the Council on Post-Secondary Education for consideration and implementation. I also indicate that under this government we have in the last session of the Legislature increased the student representation on the board of governors at the University of Manitoba, for example, to 26 percent of the board, the largest student representation in the country. That board decides tuition fees. They now have a quarter of the board to give input to that decision, and the other universities will be brought to the 25 percent as well.

Madam Speaker, that, along with our learning tax credit wherein 10 percent can be returned to students of their tuition fee and our Access programs which continue to have a higher intake every year, I think, gives us tremendously good access to post-secondary learning in this province.

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Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could the minister agree to table the report that she says has been placed before the post-secondary education council? Eighteen months ago that committee was established. There has been no public report from that. It is an issue of serious concern to those low-wage Manitobans, in particular, who must pay these increased fees.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): It would have been awfully nice when my daughter was in university in the '80s had the NDP government at that time gone so far as to look at a tuition fee policy and done some things to help the students out then. They never did. We have. The committee was struck, as the member correctly indicates, last year. The committee has done its initial report which is now before the Council on Post-Secondary Education for study. That is more than they ever did on the other side.

That committee had on it student representation: David Gratzer from the University of Manitoba, University of Manitoba Student Union president; and, as well, a president from one of the rural community colleges, and it is an internal recommendation right now to the council. They will be dealing with it and be reporting back to me, as a formal report to me then, and they will be making a decision on that in terms of what parameters to set. I really think that the members opposite, instead of sort of heckling negative things, should be pleased at the progress that is finally being made in this area in this province.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier and concerns the competence of this minister. While the provincial and federal governments were writing cheques to ManGlobe, a long list of creditors, including Revenue Canada owed $46,000 and GST owed $18,000, were chasing the ManGlobe president for payment of outstanding debts.

According to the unanimous shareholders' agreement, the ManGlobe president placed her 30 percent of the shares in the De Leeuw family trust to protect them from creditors. When will this government start approving grants based on merit and stop rewarding political friends?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated previously and will indicate again today, the provincial government's involvement was in relationship to an agreement which is between ManGlobe and the Province of Manitoba, and the terms of the agreement were met.

Mr. Maloway: Would the Deputy Premier tell this House what the approval process was for grants under the Canada-Manitoba Communications Agreement, and who represented the federal government and who represented Manitoba?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I believe that it was Mr. Steven Leahey within the department of telecommunications that was involved as far as the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism was concerned. I do not exactly know who was involved from the federal government, but I can take that question as notice. As I said previously and I will say again today, there had to be certain conditions met, involvement of other participants, and they were the Royal Bank, Canada Post and Manitoba Telephone System, to name three.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: Will the minister check with his colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and tell this House if any PST was owed by the ManGlobe president when the grants were made to ManGlobe?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): When we last asked the minister how the government could justify eliminating the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, when the Conservatives screamed so loudly when the Pawley government made changes and when the Conservatives campaigned for an independent commission, he replied that the government wanted the money for, and I quote: public safety and community issues.

My question to the minister is: Would he admit that, by killing the Law Reform Commission, a major commission project to deal with the scourge of elder abuse has also now been killed, and does he agree that, when he talks of public safety, seniors are part of the public?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I certainly agree that seniors are members of the public and certainly a concern of ours. If there is any work that is left unfinished by the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, or if indeed another body might take over that work, we will endeavour to ensure that the interests of seniors are met in the overall strategy of justice issues in this province.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister acknowledge that the government's destruction of our Law Reform Commission which provides independent reviews and recommendations, this destruction was planned without any consultation with the commissioners, with the staff, with the community, options that could have seen the Law Reform Commission continue?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The issues that were before this government, in terms of trying to decide what would be a more appropriate expenditure of resources, were weighed in favour of issues of public safety. While we certainly value the past contributions of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, we believe that there are other or alternative ways of achieving satisfactory input in respect of the process of law making. So we want to continue to explore those other avenues and certainly do not in any way belittle the past contributions, the very important contributions that the Law Reform Commission has made. In the future we will attempt, and discussions are continuing, to ensure that the practice of law reform, of law review is carried out in an appropriate and satisfactory manner in this province.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.