Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Chairperson, when we adjourned yesterday there were some questions with regard to cycle cleaning, that is the program implemented here at the Legislative Building and the Law Courts. I indicated yesterday to the member that I would try to give him some exact numbers today in terms of the impact on the employees. We informed the member that cycle cleaning has impacted three full-time employees and 10 part-time employees.

The remaining employees impacted are seven part-time employees that remain without offers of term or permanent employment as of May 26, 1997. I would also like to inform the member that opportunities continue to be explored including seasonal employment with Natural Resources, casual, term or permanent employment at the School for the Deaf, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre or casual employment at Red River Community College, the Manitoba Lotteries corporation and Manitoba Health, home care industry.

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I also want to inform the member that resources that have been made available to employees are in-house sessions with the Employee Assistance Program and in-house sessions with the Employment Insurance as well as educational and counselling programs in terms of resume writing assistance, career exploration and counselling and interviewing skills training.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for that information. It take it then the minister is claiming we started out with three full-time and 10 part-time people, that is how many people we are dealing with, and as of May 26 or thereabouts there were seven part-timers still looking for employment, so that would mean that the three full-time people have been taken care of and three of the part-timers have been taken care of, is that correct?

Mr. Pitura: That is correct.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, then when does the minister anticipate that the remaining seven part-time people will be taken care of, by what date does he expect that to happen?

Mr. Pitura: It is difficult to be able to pin that down for the honourable member, but I would like to assure the member that with regard to other opportunities for these employees that the department is committed to attempt to place these employees at the earliest possible opportunity and are working diligently to that end. So with respect to exact dates, not known at this time, but I am sure that as time goes on it would be probably a staggered type of dates.

Mr. Maloway: I wanted to deal with security as far as the government was concerned, security services. What is the situation with the government and the security in its buildings at the current time?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce Hugh Swan, who is the assistant deputy minister for Property Management within the Department of Government Services.

Within the context of the member's question in regard to security at the building at present, I would like to inform the member that we do have a permanent security staff who are placed in the building at all times to look after the security for the building. There is also a mobile security staff that move from building to building, so they are always on mobile state. I would also like to inform the member that, within the Security and Parking section, there are a total of 81 staff who are looking after security and parking.

The security right now within the building administers policies and enforces regulations at all owned and leased parking facilities-these are the parking lots-provides surveillance, protection, investigations and emergency response for government-owned and leased property and personnel. It maintains and controls a central monitoring and dispatch centre which provides telephone answering service, paging service, central alarm monitoring of all government-owned, leased facilities, and dispatch of security maintenance staff and emergency responders. It also administers and conducts physical security surveys, identifies requirements and recommends security systems, and provides user training. The security also promotes security education and awareness through the Security Awareness for Employees program and maintains the Manitoba Government Services Identification Card program.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I guess what I was getting at was wondering what was happening with security services in all of the government buildings vis-a-vis private security firms versus government-employed individuals, government employees.

Mr. Pitura: The Government Services now has the provision of government security services, which is our own staff at 12 locations-[interjection] That is correct, 12 locations. They have contracted security under parking services at two locations. We have the six mobile security patrols which are our own staff for 22 Winnipeg and 50 rural facilities.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, does the minister anticipate any changes in the number of contracted-out security examples? Right now you are saying you have two buildings contracted out. Do you anticipate more of these in the future?

Mr. Pitura: Not at the present time.

Mr. Maloway: Before we get back to Fleet Vehicles, I wanted to ask the minister questions about the Headingley rebuild that is going on after the Headingley riot. Can he tell us just what is happening with regard to that? I recall at the time, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) claiming that the inmates were going to be doing all this work. That proved to be totally false within a very short period of time after her saying this, within a day or two anyway. The government's initial reactions and so on did not seem to be borne out as to what they originally thought would be done here. So what I would like to know is, because this seemed to be a changing project, just where we are with it right now and what is its costs?

Mr. Pitura: I would like to inform the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) that with regard to the repairs to the Headingley Correctional Institute that were the subject of the riot, that the repairs there are essentially complete. I would share with the member that I had the opportunity to tour the facility earlier this spring. At that point in time they were almost complete. Now I am advised that the repairs are now complete in the main part of the facility. There is also the conversion of a facility known as Annex A, and this is for the segregated inmates. I am also advised that facility is also nearing completion.

I would also like to inform the member that design work is underway to construct the new intermittent housing for those inmates who would be spending weekends at the facility, and also the design work is underway for a new maximum security unit on the grounds as well. I am also advised that the total costs, when it is completed, is estimated to be around $10 million.

Mr. Maloway: What were the improvements then over the old system at the prison that are built into this $10 million? Presumably for $10 million we are getting more than just an exact rebuild of what was there before.

Mr. Pitura: For clarification for the member, the new intermittent housing and the new maximum security unit are part of that $10-million cost estimate. I would inform the member that with the rebuilding of the main security unit at Headingley that was affected by the riot, there were 15 enhancement items that were identified as immediate requirements and eight have been fully completed as of now. That includes the installation of rain separation barriers, replacement of electric metallic tubing with rigid conduit, installation of heavier gauge steel doors and frames, installation of fire stopping between floors in cell blocks, additions to the electromechanical locking system not required by fire code, modification and additions to the institution's telephone system, installation of a new security fence around Annex B which is the other annex, and renovations to Annex A to house the minimum security inmates.

Construction is also underway on six of the remaining immediate enhancement requirements with completion expected in early 1997 for all but the Annex B renovations and additions to the new fire alarm and smoke detection system, hardening of the main building guard stations and master control room, which when I went through the facility were very close to completion, installation of an expanded CCTV surveillance system, installation of a threshold noise alarm system, improvements to the exterior security lighting on the grounds of the institution, and the renovations to Annex B to house protective custody inmates.

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Mr. Maloway: Did the minister and the government at the time just after the riot receive any representations or have any discussions regarding the possibility of having the prison constructed and run by private concerns?

Mr. Pitura: I would like to take the opportunity to introduce Steven Kupfer, who is the assistant deputy minister in charge of Accommodation Development within Government Services. In answer to the member's question, no, we were not approached by any interests.

Mr. Maloway: Has the minister or any members of his department been approached by any private business interests regarding the whole area of private prisons, of running and owning private prisons in Manitoba or managing them?

Mr. Pitura: No, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Maloway: I wanted to thank the minister for those answers. Perhaps just before we get back to Fleet Vehicles-which I am sure we are all dying to do at this point-I did want to draw the minister's attention to one of the areas that I talked about yesterday and we discussed. That was the year 2000 problem.

Just today, just to indicate to the minister how serious this can be, I was reading an article in a trade magazine of May 26 this year, whereby the automobile insurance agency in Quebec, that is the agency, the SAAQ of which Manitoba's no-fault system was patterned on three years ago, was borrowed from the Quebec system which was set up in 1976 by Rene Levesque. So it is a fairly large-I am not certain how many employees there are there-but it operates like Autopac does. It operates just the liability coverage for all of Quebec's citizens. It is a mandatory coverage.

Nevertheless, they have managed to quantify the amount of time that it would take for them to get this problem corrected. They are suggesting here that they will require 20,000 person days. That will give the minister some idea of what information I was looking for yesterday. I was expecting that he would be able to tell me that this committee was set up, had been meeting weekly or whatever, it had this person or that person on it who knew what they were doing, and that at this point in time they had determined that in department A it was going to take X number of hours to solve the problem, in department B it was going to take Y amount of hours just to solve the problem.

What they suggest is that-they have partners in this, IBM and another company, and they are suggesting that it is going to be corrected just in time. So their correction of the year 2000 problem is expected to take until December 1999, so these are people that seem to be on the ball here and know what they are doing and can tell you right now that they are going to take 20,000 person days. Now, they may be totally wrong when it is all said and done too, but at least that is the stage which they are at.

I read reports like this constantly over the last year about different operations that are at different stages, so I would ask the minister whether he could endeavour to get us a status report giving information like that as to how many person days that it is anticipated it will take on a department-by-department basis?

Mr. Pitura: As I indicated to the member yesterday, I am sure that that type of information or the information that he is requesting could be best routed to the 2000 committee, which is mandated under the Department of Finance, but I also want to assure the member too that probably having it just in time for December of 1999 actually makes a lot of sense, because you really do not want your conversion to happen before that time, otherwise you are going to run into problems with the 20th Century still. So you want to make sure that you do have the switchover just in time and, probably, from the standpoint of our abilities here in Manitoba, we should probably be able to accommodate the switchover in the system once the directives are given.

Mr. Maloway: Perhaps we could get back to Fleet Vehicles now and deal with Fleet and the remaining SOAs in some sort of order.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, the member asked a question yesterday about the work that was done within the city of Winnipeg by dealership. Okay, we are looking at General Motors dealers. I want to clarify it for the member that, by and large, most of the work that is done on the cars that is not warranty work is done in-house. You have to keep that in mind, that vehicles for the most part are attempted to be fixed in-house. When I go over these numbers, I hope the member will keep that in mind.

Mr. Maloway: Meaning the Fleet does the warranty work themselves?

Mr. Pitura: No, not the warranty work. I said, excluding warranty work, that most of the repairs are done in-house. So if you want to take a look at the whole repairs that are being spent, Garden Gate Pontiac Buick, for example, $32.85 was spent for repairs; McNaught Motors, zero; Park Pontiac Buick GMC, zero; Orion Chev Olds, $9.15.

Now, we would also have a standing parts contract which is tendered on by the dealerships within the City of Winnipeg, and Murray Chevrolet Oldsmobile won the parts contract for a total price tag of a round number $69,000. We have Vickar Community Chev Olds repairs $57.56; Jim Gauthier Chev Olds $801.82.

If we move into the Ford dealers, Cam Clark Ford Sales has the Ford parts contract for some $16,280. Keystone Ford Sales had zero dollars on repairs. Landau Lincoln Mercury Sales $49.23; Midtown Ford Sales Limited $109; McPhillips Lincoln Mercury $102.14; and Parkside Ford Sales, that is also a parts contract for $39,868.

For the Chrysler dealerships, Midway Chrysler Plymouth Ltd. had the parts contract for $27,812; Pembina Dodge Chrysler Ltd., $446 worth of repairs; Eastern Chrysler Plymouth, $851 worth of repairs; Royal Dodge Chrysler Corp., zero dollars for repairs; and Westport Chrysler Dodge Ltd., a parts contract of $61,300.

Mr. Maloway: So the parts contract, then, is tendered on an annual basis.

Mr. Pitura: That is correct.

Mr. Maloway: These parts then are sent to Fleet, and they are used to repair the vehicles at Fleet.

Mr. Pitura: That is correct.

Mr. Maloway: Now we have to deal with what my real question was, and that is the warranty work. How was that split up dealership by dealership in Winnipeg?

Mr. Pitura: It is very difficult to answer the member's question in the specifics that he would like to have it because, if a driver is assigned a fleet vehicle and the vehicle goes in for some warranty work, and the warranty is, for example, with General Motors, they go to the facility that is closest to them, or, if they are in the city, they would be directed to, say, a couple of dealerships that are the closest.

We have to keep in mind that once the warranty work is done, there is no billing system for it because it is all internal with General Motors, it is internal with Ford, it is internal with Chrysler. So to be able to get the exact numbers for the member would be very difficult unless we were to approach General Motors and ask them for specifics on the vehicles that we have from them as well as Ford and Chrysler. So it would be a very time-consuming task to get that information for the member. I hope the member will appreciate that this type of information is not that readily available.

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Mr. Maloway: Well, does the minister, if he does not have a dollar amount of the warranty work, have numbers of work orders then or numbers of times that vehicles were sent in to each dealership?

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that the work orders that would be produced on each vehicle, again because of the fact that it is warranty work, are kept internally within the automobile dealership.

Mr. Maloway: Well, then, surely Fleet Vehicles keeps track of just the numerical, the number of times it sends a car to each dealership. Forget about the dollar amount of the warranty work, forget about the invoice that would be issued, surely they know how many times, they have to know how many times each vehicle has been shipped in for warranty work and who they sent them to. They have got to know that.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, to answer the member's question, for each vehicle that Fleet Vehicles has, they would have to go through the history of each individual vehicle to be able to pull out the number of times that the vehicle was repaired on warranty, and I am advised that is a fairly onerous type of task to carry out to trace each vehicle's history through the computer system.

Mr. Maloway: Well, can the minister then tell us whether the work is spread evenly among the dealers in the city, or is there one that has preference over another?

Mr. Pitura: The information I have here is that for General Motors vehicles, Fleet Vehicles generally directs the driver to either Murray Chev Olds or Jim Gauthier because they are the closest; for Chrysler vehicles, they generally use Midway Chrysler because they offer to pick the vehicle up; and, for Ford vehicles, they generally direct the driver to McPhillips Mercury, Landau Mercury, or Parkside because they are the closest.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to deal with an SOA question and what happens to the retained earnings of the corporation and, seeing as how Fleet is the first of the SOAs, the first of many, we should probably take a look at its retained earnings position and try to find out where the money goes or where the money is. What I would like to know is whether or not, in the case of some of the other special operating agencies-in one of the other departments I was told that they sent the money over to Finance and it was kept over there. However, in this department, I get the impression that somehow the retained earnings of the company are kept and held with the company. So I would like to know just what the situation is regarding that as far as the Fleet is concerned.

(Mr. Denis Rocan, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I believe the member for Elmwood was referring to a discussion we had the other day in a discussion of Fleet Vehicles. I would advise the member that, from the standpoint of the comments that I made, I probably am in error on this, that the minister responsible for The Special Operating Agencies Financing Authority Act, and that is the Minister of Finance, would be in the best position to answer the particular question that the member has.

However, retained earnings is a sign in terms of the financial picture of the SOA, that a growth in returned earnings is a healthy sign in that it reflects the agencies have been able to maintain a positive bottom line while they are becoming established. It is also because of the fact that SOAs are relatively new, it is only prudent to ensure that they attain and maintain an appropriate level of financial stability before they begin to make significant adjustments to their asset pricing or equity structure. So retained earnings really is a financial indicator of an organization's financial strength in terms of the statement itself. I would also like to share with the member that when Fleet was first established, basically the objective of Fleet Vehicles was to reduce its long-term debt.

To that end, Fleet Vehicles have paid off their long-term debt, their start-up debt this year, some 15 years ahead of schedule. They have also, because of the fact that they are showing good financial strength within the operation, that they have been able to offer a $15-a-month reduction in the Fleet Vehicles to a number of departments that are dealing with Fleet Vehicles.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I noticed that it has interest income. Where is it investing its money?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, the Department of Finance handles all the short-term investments for the SOA.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, so what we have here is Fleet at 1997, March 31, has $7 million in retained earnings. The projection here is it will increase by $1.6 million next year, then $1.4 million and $1.1 million in the year 2000. So over the course of four years its retained earnings will go from $7.3 million up to $11.6 million.

Now, when it gets to $11.6, then what, in fact, will happen with these retained earnings? Does it get diverted into general revenues and at what stage? Is there a formula to divert it into general revenues? I mean, it is essentially there already, because what we have is it is under the Special Operating Agencies financing authority. It is controlled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). The investments are done by the Minister of Finance, so you really have no control over your investments. You really are not in control of this at all. This is the Minister of Finance's show here.

The question is what is he going to do or what does he do with this $11 million projected for the year 2000? What portion does he divert off the general revenue, and what happens to it?

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Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, when the member references the fact that the retained earnings will go up to some $11.6 million by the year 2000, I would at least indicate to the member that within the financial pro forma balance sheet of the SOA, if one was to take a look at the total assets of the SOA in the year 2000, that those total assets are made up of current and long-term liabilities, as well as the equity in terms of contributing equity in the retained earnings. So the retained earnings that the SOA has are, in turn, reinvested back into the physical assets of the SOA in order for it to generate and to keep operating its business.

Mr. Maloway: But what retained earnings really are is what would be left over if you liquidated the company today. I mean, that is basically what we are talking about here. If you were to liquidate the company and sell off its assets and pay down its liabilities, what you have is the residue, and the retained earnings figure represents what that company is actually worth. So today, if we were to sell off its assets and pay down its debt and take care of its liabilities, what we would have in the bank, or what the Minister of Finance would have in the bank, would be $7,320,000 and whatever. That is what we would have here. As each year progresses, the retained earnings account either diminishes if you have a bad year or it increases if you have a good year.

Now your projections are all good; your projections are to-and I do not know, maybe you are going to get heavy competition for your leases, and maybe you will not perform as well as this indicates. But let us say that you do perform as well, you are going to have retained earnings of $11 million in the year 2000, in just what, three, four years from now. My question is: At what point does the Minister of Finance start siphoning off this money to be used for general revenue or something else?

Mr. Pitura: Again, I point out to the honourable member that, if he takes a look at that balance sheet data, you have the current liabilities and long-term liabilities plus the retained earnings and the contributed equity that make up the entire total assets of the SOA. So the member is right that, if you liquidated the entire operation, you would be left with the so-called retained earnings as your cash that you could carry away, but, at the same time, the retained earnings as part of the equity is invested in the business. It is not kept out as a cash surplus. If you take a look at the total long-term, short-term liabilities plus equity, it brings you to the total assets. Of the total assets, there are some $30.96 million invested in property and equipment, of which a portion of that is equity from the total equity value on that sheet.

Mr. Maloway: Well, the corporation is showing interest income of-is it $15 million here and 16 projected, page 78 of the statement? So clearly it is earning interest on its investments. I mean, your retained earnings-I know what the minister is suggesting. He is saying that, if you have a good year, you take the money and you put it in retained earnings, and you reinvest it in the company. Well, then, it is not really in retained earnings anymore. Basically, it is money that is part of the company's investments.

Mr. Pitura: I think, in response to the member, that the retained earnings are part of the internally regenerated investment that takes place within a business, because when I operated a farm, at the end of the year I did not call it retained earnings, but I did call it profit. As such, the profit that was generated by the farm was reinvested back into the farm in either paying down some long-term debt or investment in equipment, which was the way that I would not keep the profit separate from the farm and put it into a separate account. It would be reinvested back into the business.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, let us go back for a moment to Autopac, for example, which is supposed to be keeping 15 percent of earned premiums in a basically retained earnings account. They do not call it that, but that is essentially what it is. Of course, they never seem to have it; they get close to their $50-million reserve and then boom, down it goes in the tank, and it gets down into even negative amounts. Well, that is the retained earnings account that we are talking about here. So this agency can operate with as much retained earnings as the government deems is necessary. All I want to know is, just where are the retained earnings being streamed, and at what point does the Minister of Finance take it away from the SOA? That is where we have got to come down to here.

I mean, let us take the Workers Compensation Board. I do not have the figures here. But they showed projections as well to the year 2000, and they were going to have enormous retained earnings in the year 2000. Now what they have already done to short-circuit what they are going to have in 1999, year 2000 is, they announced just recently that they are giving major reductions to the employers in terms of their premiums. That is one of the things you can do with the retained earnings and a healthy financial picture. All we have said is that in 1999 just before election time the WCB would turn around and either reduce the premiums substantially and increase the benefits substantially or do both. It would do a combination of the two. It was not going to let this money sit there; this was essentially just another slush fund of the government's in a way. It was going to be used like Autopac; it would be used in the same way.

All we are trying to find out is to discover how many of these SOAs have the potential to have a good retained earnings position by the year 2000, and what will the government be directing the use of these funds for? Will it be in the case of Vital Statistics a reduction in the death certificate and the birth certificate prices to make the consumers happy with the government's performance in that area? In the case of SOAs, because you do not deal with the public here, at least in this one, right?-I doubt whether you are going to be reducing the price of the lease vehicle. You might because of private competition. But what I am trying to get at here is, what is the formula, or does Eric not tell you what the formula is that he uses to determine how much of this money you can keep in the SOA before he starts taking it for his purposes?

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Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, the member had a fairly extensive question here, and I hope I will be able to address it properly. When the member suggests and makes a comparison to Autopac as a fact that they are-were you referring to the rate stabilization or whatever they had? But that is an area that this is quite different from in terms of retained earnings. It is possible for Fleet Vehicles to also operate with very little retained earnings. As the member can appreciate from the financial statement, all we have to have happen with Fleet Vehicles is that we do not lease in large numbers of cars one year and our retained earnings are blown out of the water.

So, with respect to the whole financial statement and any particular little formulas, there are none because the retained earnings that are shown on that sheet end up the following year being invested back into capital assets, which, in this case, an SOA for Fleet Vehicles, is property and equipment so that Fleet Vehicles can continue to generate a cash flow which, hopefully, will result, once expenses are taken off-will generate in additional retained earnings the following year. But I would like to point out that because of the fact that we have competition within the SOA for Fleet Vehicles, the Fleet Vehicles SOA, indeed these projections are only that; they are projections. If we do not do our job in Fleet Vehicles, those projections can change dramatically to show us having a bottom line with very little retained earnings and, perhaps, even negative results at the bottom.

Mr. Maloway: Because he has the money, you are turning the money over to him, he is keeping your books right now, at what point is he going to allow you to proceed with increasing the amount of retained earnings? At what point is he to tell you that they will divert a portion of it? I mean, is it a percentage? Surely when you get to 10 times the retained earnings you have by now, something is going to give. The government is going to be demanding the money be spent elsewhere. What is the formula that is going to be used?

Mr. Pitura: I think a very short answer to that question is the fact that when Fleet Vehicles continues to have ever-increasing retained earnings, what that does for Fleet Vehicles is it allows them the flexibility to remain competitive in the market and to be able to, as they have done this year, offer fleet vehicles at a $15-a-month reduction to the government departments that deal with Fleet. In fact, from the standpoint that Fleet Vehicles is looking at the other public areas of government as well, that it certainly is having strong, healthy retained earnings out of the SOA, allows the SOA to be able to be very competitive.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I was tempted to say that I would not tell Eric you have all this money, but I think he already knows. So you are not going to be able to hold on to it, if he wants to take it from you.

Before we go on to the next special operating agency, I would like to know what the computer system situation is with regard to this one, because from the answers I have got over the last two days, this Fleet Vehicles Agency probably needs a more efficient computer system that can give us-like next year when we sit here, I am sure they will be able to crank out all this information on the warranty work for the cars. Each car's warranty work will just be spit right out on a command basis, almost. So I would like to know just what is the current state of computerization at this SOA, because I do not think it is part of the government's overall plan right now, or maybe it is.

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that at Fleet Vehicles there are two basic computer systems. One is an equipment repair management computer system. The second is the financial computer system, and both of these systems are 2000 compliant.

Mr. Maloway: But these new systems that you have, are these systems that are going to be replaced with this new Desktop Management system or are they something that is totally independent of that?

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that the systems will not be replaced as a result of Desktop Management.

Mr. Maloway: Just a couple more general questions regarding the remaining SOAs. I would like to know just what-let us pick one of these SOAs that actually deals with the public. I think the minister said Materials Distribution, was that the one that deals with the home care people?

Mr. Pitura: I would just like to introduce Tracey Danowski, who is the chief operating officer for the Materials Distribution SOA, who is at the desk with us at the front now.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister give us a brief history of the Materials Distribution Agency and what its retained earnings, current position, and projections are, just exactly what this agency is doing and how it is progressing?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, just as a brief background for the member, the Materials Distribution Agency became an SOA on April 1, 1993, and it was the second SOA in Manitoba and in Canada. This agency has dedicated a fairly significant amount of time and resources towards improving operations, implementing new automated systems, developing new markets and improving marketing and communication tools, including providing services to all three levels of governments.

The agency presently provides management services to over 2300 government offices in Manitoba, including government departments, boards, commissions, agencies, Crown corporations, municipal and federal government offices in Manitoba. While the agency offers transportation and moving services, disposal services and storage services, the backbone of the operation and its major revenue source is from the sale of commonly used items. With the transfer of the Home Care Equipment and Supply Program to Materials Distribution Agency, the agency now provides medical and ostomy supplies, medical equipment directed to over 22,000 Manitobans.

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The provision of these supplies and equipment allows individuals to reside in the community rather than institutional facilities and improves their quality of life. Currently the agency stocks over 4700 line items in its newly expanded 35,000 square foot office and warehouse complex located on Church Avenue in Winnipeg. The commodities currently available include stationery, office furnishings, refurbished office furniture, janitorial and maintenance supplies, computer licences, software manuals and peripheral items, medical and ostomy supplies, medical equipment for the Home Care program, and laboratory, X-ray, ECG and ultrasound products, and personal care reproductive health supply.

The agency tenders for annual contracts for these items and sells them to clients on a cost-plus percentage markup basis to cover the costs incurred in procurement, warehousing, picking, packing, shipping, and invoicing. So that brief is, in brief, kind of the history of the Materials Distribution Agency, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Maloway: I note that it did not start its involvement in the Home Care program until April 1, 1997. So that would mean that it has only been in that business for just a short period of time now, is that correct?

Mr. Pitura: That is correct.

Mr. Maloway: Now back to the retained earnings position of this SOA. On page 92 what we see there from 1997 to the year 2000 is a projection of retained earnings that is going to increase substantially between this year and the year 2000. So what I would like to know is: Where are the projected retained earnings coming from and just at what level does it have to get before the government takes the retained earnings for other purposes?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, in answer to the honourable member's question, basically if you look at the pro forma balance sheet, that if you take the total assets minus the current and long-term liabilities, you end up with your equity in the SOA, and the equity is made up of contributed equity and the remainder is retained earnings. Retained earnings, again, is an indicator of the financial progress of the SOA, and as such that having a positive bottom line for retained earnings is an indication that the SOA is indeed heading in the right direction. Then retained earnings in turn become part of the equity in terms of the assets that are required to generate the cash flow for the ensuing year.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, but once again, what guarantee do we have that this SOA with its retained earnings in 1999 or the year 2000 if $2 million is not going to be using this SOA, this retained earnings amount as a pre-election slush fund? Because clearly the home care component here is a case where they are dealing directly with the public, and come election year there is a good possibility that they will be deciding to reduce the prices substantially, basically an election year reduction of home care products. Does the minister see that in our future?

Mr. Pitura: In response to the honourable member's question, simply taking a look at the balance sheet is what the SOA, the Materials Distribution Agency, has projected as a long-term outlet for the health of the SOA. The member will note that when you take the retained earnings from any given year that they are invested back into the SOA, it is very difficult to be able to access it as a slush fund for pre-election campaign goodies, because it does form part of the agency as such. All it does is reflect the fact that the SOA is performing well, and certainly it can end up providing reduced cost to service for clientele. One has to also remember that the basic objective of the SOA would be to remain in a competitive environment, and using up retained earnings in that fashion would not be a very astute business move.

Mr. Maloway: This government is expert at doing things like that. I mean, that is what it does; before an election it sits on the Autopac rates or reduces them. It will do the same thing here. You have the Workers Compensation Board where they are projecting a huge retained earnings position just prior to the election. Mark my words that when the time comes, there will be huge reductions in Workers Compensation premiums. By then the Autopac reserves or retained earnings will be back up to where they should be, and it will be time again to deplete them as part of the Tory election machine.

This one-and I had already mentioned Vital Stats where they are all lined up, the projections are right there, for a nice fat retained earnings position to be able to reduce their rates for death certificates and marriage certificates and whatnot just before the election. This one here is lining up in the queue with the rest of them. I mean, it has retained earnings of $691,000 right now, and they are going to jump within the next couple of years to $2.2 million. Now $2.2 million is a nice big chunk of money to have right around election time to start reducing the cost to people who use home care supplies.

I am not faulting the government for wanting to do this. I am just pointing out reality here. I am saying that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson)-the minister keeps pointing out it is, whoops, I do not know what is going on with the investments; I do not know what is going on with the money; the Minister of Finance has it. You bet the Minister of Finance has it. He has it, and it is part of the overall plan of the government. The whole plan here is to run these things like businesses and have them multiply wherever possible, and then come election time you have these 10 or 15 little slush funds, and you can just start doling out the cash to earn re-election. I do not know why the minister would not just admit that.

Mr. Pitura: The honourable member makes statements about using the SOAs as a potential source of slush funds for pre-election goodies. Mr. Chairperson, we are only in year two of our mandate, and if you take a look at the special operating agencies I do not think you have to look very far to see that this is indeed a very practical way to be able to operate various areas of government that have the ability, from the standpoint that they are not involved right within government, to be able to operate on a basis of being able to provide a cost-efficient, customer-oriented type of service.

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If you take a look at any of the SOAs that are present in the Department of Government Services, all four SOAs do have a customer clientele. Whether it be within the government, the public, such as the Materials Distribution, Mail Management or Land Management, we always have as an objective to be able to give top-quality customer service at a very cost-efficient price to the customer and thereby, overall, reducing the cost to the taxpayer of Manitoba. Fleet Vehicles is often used as the example where the amount of cost or the amount of dollars that was saved as a result of switching over to Fleet Vehicles as an SOA has had a dramatic effect on the bottom line for the government and being able to create a more efficient use of Fleet Vehicles, and actually a far superior service to the clientele as a result of them adopting some businesslike objectives within the SOA.

So I think the member for Elmwood is fishing a lot here for something that is not there. I think that if one were to take a look at these special operating agencies and look at the performance sheets, the balance sheets, as they are presented and try not to read, make a short story into a long essay, then you will see with regard to these SOAs, that they are showing a good performance and that the retained earnings are not going to be used as a slush fund for future election goodies, but they are used to bolster the strength of the SOA.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Chairperson, my questions are along the lines of the home care equipment special operating agency, as well. I would like to ask the minister if any pricing changes or policy changes have occurred with the move of the agency from the Department of Health to Government Services?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that with regard to the Materials Distribution branch that the Materials Distribution branch is basically the supplier of service for the home care medical supplies. The Home Care Branch of Manitoba Health pays for all the medical supplies equipment with the exception of the ostomy supplies in which there is a $300-maximum-per-year contribution for that, but the whole area of the home care equipment is paid for by the Home Care Branch of Manitoba Health.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that response and I realize that, but who determines the cost and the cost-plus nature of each, who determines the cost and has there been any change in cost since the changeover; and secondly, what does the minister mean by cost-plus? What is entailed under cost-plus in terms of administrated and related costs?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that with regard to the pricing of the medical equipment, right now the cost to the client is the same as it was before directly through the Health Home Care Branch. Materials Distribution is responsible for the pricing. The choice is to keep the pricing the same as it was previous. Since it has just taken over the distribution of that equipment, the objective of the Materials Distribution is to actually offer that equipment to home care patients at a price less than what it is priced at now from the Home Care Branch, and that is due to just the way the operation of the facility in terms of the efficiencies that it can impart.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, so just for clarification, the minister is saying that in fact it is the objective of this special operating agency to offer the home care equipment supplies and the ostomy supplies at a price less than what has been previously offered?

Mr. Pitura: The intent is to be able to, because of the way the SOA operates, make the overall cost of the home care supplies less costly to government over the long run. I have to clarify for the member that it is the cost to government that they are looking at reducing, because, am I correct that the home care equipment is all paid for by the provincial government?

Mr. Chomiak: I think that is not entirely correct. A portion is paid for by members of the public with respect to home care equipment. Certainly the first $300 of ostomy supplies is paid for by the public as well as any costs under $50 of items, and there have also been a number of items that were delisted recently.

Having said that, the minister clarified the difference between the cost to government and the cost to public. The minister is saying that overall he anticipates that the operation of this agency will reduce the overall costs of home care equipment, period.

Mr. Pitura: Within the home care products within the Materials Distribution SOA the objective of the Materials Distribution SOA is to result in the lower unit cost of procurement of the product. I am advised as well that there are over 500 items in the catalogue that are printed this year where their price is indeed lower than it was last year, but the total cost of home care products may indeed in fact go up as the volumes increase. The overall objective of the materials distribution agency as an SOA and being able to operate in the way it is is to procure the product at a lower per unit cost than previous.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether or not the overall catalogue of products offered has increased or decreased since the changeover?

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Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to correct for the record, what I indicated to the member for Kildonan in my last answer was that, when I referred to the 500 items that were lower than last year, this is 500 general items in the catalogue that were lower last year. I am also advised that the Department of Health sets up committees to take a look at health care products, and that the Department of Health essentially determines what products will be offered through the Home Care Supply through Materials Distribution.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether any employees were carried over from the previous operation to the present operation, and how many employees that entails? In fact, who is presently operating the program?

Mr. Pitura: There were eight permanent employees and four term employees that were transferred over with the program.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether any employees were let go?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that the Department of Health, because of the fact that it was operated under the Department of Health and all the employees were employees of the Department of Health, the employees I indicated transferred over to Materials Distribution. So the remaining employees are Department of Health employees, and so that question would probably be best addressed to the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik).

Mr. Chomiak: So the minister is saying that eight Department of Health full-time employees and four temporary employees were transferred over to the special operating agency?

Mr. Pitura: That is correct.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I am sure the minister is aware that the unit costs for ostomy supply and the administrative costs in Manitoba are probably the lowest in the country, if not in North America, as a result of the procurement procedures that have taken place in the past, and I wonder if the minister could explain to me how they intend to decrease those costs with the movement into this new operating agency.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, with the overall objective of the Materials Distribution Agency in handling these products, there are various areas that can contribute to a lower cost per unit of these products. First off, there is the consolidation of all the warehouse space, so that there is a cheaper cost of storage. There is also now the efficient use of staff in the distribution of these products. There is also the reduction in the administrative costs associated with the distribution of these products, i.e., in the number of vehicles required and so on. So there are a number of areas that the SOA, the Materials Distribution SOA, can take a look at with regard to reducing the per unit cost of these supplies.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether or not there are any studies either ongoing or concluded concerning the entire area of the home equipment supply branch?

Mr. Pitura: Our department has not done any studies, but the studies done on home care products, I am advised, have been done by the Department of Health, and, as such, they would be the best source of information for that question.

Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether or not there are any plans or discussions at the departmental or cabinet level, for that matter, concerning the possible privatization of this particular branch?

Mr. Pitura: Not that I am aware of. I have not heard.

Mr. Chomiak: For clarification, therefore, the minister is saying that it is his view that this particular branch will be maintained within the ambit of government, albeit within a special operating agency in the medium- and long-term future?

Mr. Pitura: I would like to share with the honourable member that I would say, no, there are no immediate plans with regard to privatization of the materials distribution agency for the home care. I know that the member asked a question about medium and long term, and I think that it is very difficult to project that long a time into the future, to say that forever and a day that there will not be any privatization take place, because of the fact that there are many changes occurring within the field, and the materials agency is simply a service agency for the distribution of home care products.

That is not to say that maybe in the purview of home care itself that that part may well be privatized. We do not know what is going to happen, for example, with the RHAs and how they are going to establish their line of home care products.

So there are a number of ifs in the future to say definitely that in the medium to long term that it is not, but I would say, in my foreseeable future anyway, I would say that this probably-the answer is no.

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that response, and I wonder if the minister would not agree with the proposition that with respect to the home care equipment, we are talking about something that is somewhat different than other material distribution products. In fact, it is something that is for most individuals not an option but a necessity and in some cases a matter of life and death, and to that end the consideration, in fact, of a changeover into the private mode is something that would have to be dealt with independent of the overall materials distribution branch, which actually was one of the criticisms I had of the move in the first place.

Would the minister not agree that there is specifically a difference with respect to Home Care equipment?

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Mr. Pitura: Yes, the member makes a good comment about the specific use for the equipment, the necessity of the equipment. I think we are all cognizant of that within the Materials Distribution and as such, as long as it is part of our mandate within that SOA to be looking after the distribution and handling of home care products, we will always be cognizant of that fact, and we will do the best job we possibly can in making sure that all of our clientele are well looked after.

Mr. Chomiak: The minister made reference to the fact that when dealing with the medium and long term to the RHAs and the fact that they may have a different viewpoint with respect to the purchase, does the minister not see it as somewhat contradictory that the services are centralized? The minister earlier on in his statement in one of his comments indicated that the system was brought under special operating agencies to deal with economies of scale and the like. Does the minister not agree that it would be, in fact, contrary to that purpose to have the service fragmented off to individual and other organizations and agencies and in fact that that would counteract the stated intention to provide for cost effectiveness?

Mr. Pitura: I think in response to the honourable member's question then, with the Materials Distribution SOA, I would say that our overall objective would be to work with the RHAs and actually develop a relationship with them to be able to serve their needs. I think that the Materials Distribution SOA operating along that line can provide a very cost-efficient service to the RHAs. But that is not to say that when all is said and done that Materials Distribution SOA will be the contractor of supply that the RHAs may wish to deal with. We are certainly going to do our bit from Materials Distribution Agency to ensure that RHAs know that we are there and that we are able to provide them with a very cost-efficient service for their home care clientele within their administrative boundaries.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, has the minister or his staff received any representations or presentations from private companies or private individuals seeking to privatize this particular SOA?

Mr. Pitura: The answer is no.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask a couple of quick questions about the Land Management Services SOA and the Mail Management SOA. Before the Materials Distribution SOA is finished, I did want to know what their situation was with their computer systems as well. So it is essentially the same questions for all three SOAs, the computer systems, the status of them, the retained earnings positions, and just what the government is up to with regard to these SOAs.

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that Materials Distribution has a Great Plains accounting and inventory control computer program. With the addition of the home care products to their list of inventory, it has been upgraded to accommodate that. I am also advised that it is 2000 compliant. In fact there was a little voice around here saying that it might even be 3000 compliant for all we know, it is so sophisticated.

Mr. Maloway: Regarding the Land Management Services SOA, could the minister give us a brief update on what that SOA is up to and what its retained earnings position is, and what its computer system is like, and whether he has had any representations from individuals wanting to privatize this particular SOA?

Mr. Pitura: I would like to advise the honourable member that, in terms of the historical background for Land Management Services, it began as a special operating agency on April 1, 1995, and its mandate is to provide a comprehensive real estate service to various levels of government as well as to boards, commissions, corporations and agencies.

The agency conducts all appraisals and negotiations related to acquisition or expropriation of land by an authority. It directs payment of all monies, compensation and consideration paid to the party from which land is acquired or expropriated. Upon request, the agency does provide land appraisal service and sells or leases land surplus in accordance with the immediate needs of government.

In order for the agency to operate on a cost-recovery basis, a service fee structure was approved by the Treasury Board for '95-96. Following its first year of operation, the agency realized a net income of $524,000, which was almost double the amount estimated in the business plan projections.

So that briefly is some of the background behind the Land Management history. The member has asked about the retained earnings for Land Management, and again we are looking at a fairly positive bottom line with regard to retained earnings which again will be utilized by Land Management in order to shore up its capital assets and current assets within the operation of the agency.

Mr. Maloway: How many properties has this SOA sold in the last year and since it was established?

Mr. Pitura: I will just provide the member with some information on appraisal acquisition of properties, that there were 56 projects involving 27 clients. The Land Management Services secured 328 mutual agreements, 306 on behalf of Highways and Transportation, with the remainder conducted for three other clients. There were 71 real estate appraisals that did not comprise an acquisition. Seven properties were expropriated for three projects. Mr. Chairman, 1,528 acres of land were acquired at a cost of $1,469,000, of which $959,000 was paid in the current fiscal year. It also undertook a review of appropriate levels of assessment for government properties to determine fairness and equity of grants in lieu of taxes. This review resulted in a net saving in taxes to the Land Management agency, and also 1,500 parcels of surplus land were sold, including abandoned rail lines.

Mr. Maloway: Then I would like to ask the minister how it makes its income then. Is it based on a commission on the sale, or how does it fund itself?

Mr. Pitura: The Land Management agency has a schedule of fees as it pertains to the various services that they offer. There is not a percentage type of fee that they charge, so basically the income comes from those fee services.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could endeavour to provide us with a list of all the properties that have been purchased and sold by this particular SOA.

Mr. Pitura: Is the member asking for the 1,528 parcels of land listed?

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Mr. Maloway: The minister had indicated there were 56 projects that had been worked on, so I think it would be sufficient just to give us a list of the 56 projects or the number of projects and the value of the land that was sold. I do not think we need the legal descriptions of all the different parcels.

Mr. Pitura: With regard to the acquisitions of property, I am advised that, yes, there should be no problem getting you the 56 projects that were acquired.

Mr. Maloway: It would indicate the purchase price and who bought them, and all that information.

Mr. Pitura: Just to give some clarification as to what the member is after here because within each one of these 56 projects, a project may be a highway project, in which case we might be dealing with 50, 60 individual property owners in which case in order to break out that project, you would have to have the listing of each individual property. Is that what the member is asking for?

Mr. Maloway: I think for now we should just deal with the general-if you give us a list of the projects and the amounts that each involved-yes, and then we will take it from there.

I would like to also ask about the computer system for this SOA, and perhaps we could quickly deal with the final SOA as well, the Mail Management Agency.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that the Land Management Services right now is transferring off a Hewlett-Packard proprietary system to a personal PC system. The software they are using is a Lotus notes base with a data conversion scheduled for June 1997. It is 2000 compliant, and I think that for the member's use and reference I will also supply him with a fee schedule for Land Management Services, which I will transfer to the member and not table at this time.

Mr. Maloway: Perhaps we could deal with the Mail Management Agency, if the minister could give me a very quick rundown as to what the current status is of that particular SOA.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairman, it was an oversight on my part, but I wish to introduce Doug Parnell, who is representing the Land Management Services at the table.

I would like to now introduce Mr. Don Katz, who is the chief operating officer for the Mail Management Agency.

Mr. Maloway: If the minister knows the formula by now, if he could give us the rundown on the current status of the agency, its retained earning projections, and what sort of computer system it is using.

Mr. Pitura: Just to give a brief historical background to the Mail Management Agency, the Mail Management Agency is designated as a central agency within the Manitoba government for processing of intragovernment mail to and from the public. It provides administrative management, mail preparation, pricing, metering, sortation of interdepartment and Canada Post mail, and distribution of government mail throughout provincial government offices at the most advantageous rates and means available. The Mail Management Agency provides a centralized written communication handling service to over 870 government offices located throughout the province.

Mail processing is also provided at two rural government buildings through provision of centralized mail rooms equipped with mail machines. Mail Management annually sorts and distributes approximately 2.5 million pieces of interdepartmental mail and incoming federal mail. They also process approximately seven pieces of mail and perform nine million preparation procedures annually.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

They also provide facilities for bulking mail to and from rural provincial buildings. This has resulted in savings in excess of $370,000 per annum compared to mailing on an individual basis. They are also in the processing of high-volume mail initiated by various departments and is co-ordinated by taking advantage of incentive rates by Canada Post. They are also a resource centre for mailing information to government users to ensure Canada Post regulations are followed. They do bursting, folding, inserting, addressing and sorting of mail by Mail Management, and this has resulted in postage savings of about $175,000 annually.

I believe the Mail Management Agency is just a little over a year old, so it is in its infancy. They have, as well, a retained earnings projection over the next four years showing a positive bottom line, albeit at a very much reduced scale as the member can relate to other SOAs. However, the Mail Management Agency, I think, given the short period of time that it has been operating, has produced some remarkable results in the ability for mail to be moved efficiently within government. I think even the member's own mail is handled by the Mail Management Agency, so you tend to get your mail on time. As well, the retained earnings for this SOA will be used with regard to their being able to invest in capital assets to improve their efficiencies of operation within the agency.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to know then what this particular SOA is doing or the government is doing in the area of movement towards a paperless office. I mean, the minister is making this great initiative in desktop publishing or desktop management of computers, and it seems to me that the days of mail delivery are fast coming to a close because today people are-I know that in my own case when I deal with reporters and so on, I have reporters that will not even take faxes from me anymore; they demand that it be e-mailed to them. So we have to scan in news articles; then we fax them to the reporter, and the reporter pulls it off the machine. There is no hard copy here at all unless the person wants to pull it off.

I do not know what your office looks like, but I know that mine has got too darn much paper in it, and I can never find what I am looking for in the first place. What we found is, by scanning over the last couple of years, scanning important documents that we need and so on, that we can call them up whenever we want them; we can find them a lot easier. If we want to send them somewhere, we send them through the computer, and we have no way of knowing whether the other people at the other end of the computer, whether it be in Ottawa or Free Press or wherever we are sending the document, actually run this copy off or whether they just simply read it and cancel it or save it on the hard drive.

Now what are you doing? Because there is a tremendous amount of paper that goes back and forth between all of our offices, and that paper could very easily be reduced if we simply e-mailed one another rather than send this stuff in writing and paper all the time.

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Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, in response to the member's question, certainly it would be one's objective to be able to shift over to a paperless society, but I think we all realize and know that that is certainly something that is not going to happen, because even the member's requests here and the questions and the information that he has asked for require us to be able to provide him with a whole bunch of paper. To achieve the paperless society, I think, is a goal that we all have, but, in reality though, there always will be mail for many years to come. There still is that segment of our society that would only appreciate things if they were written down on paper rather than seeing it on a television screen or screen monitor. I take the member's comment seriously, but at the same time, I think it is desirable, but mail is here for quite awhile to come yet.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, just before I finish, I do want to suggest to the minister that one of the reasons you are going to be spending these tremendous millions of dollars over the next three years is not just to become 2000 compliant. One of the reasons you are doing this is so that Fleet Vehicles will have the information that I am asking for on warranty work and who is doing it and what not. They will be able to pull that stuff out by computer, and they will not have to print all sorts of reports and so on. They can simply e-mail them to wherever it is they want to do it. The goal of this whole computerization project that you are involved in, a big part of it is to eliminate paper. That is what it is all about, at least it better be. If that is not what you are looking at, then I want you to take a look at this whole project again. But that is what this is all about is trying to reduce the amount of paper that is being produced and stop people chasing paper around all day, to get it at one place so that people can use it more effectively.

So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I wish to conclude the Estimates and we will now pass all of the relevant sections and we will move on to the Health Estimates.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 8.1. Administration (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $374,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $69,200-pass.

8.1.(c) Finance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $572,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $183,400-pass.

8.1.(d) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $437,100-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $174,700-pass.

8.1.(e) Information Technology Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $339,700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $285,800-pass.

8.1.(f) Lieutenant Governor's Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $97,700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $62,500-pass.

8.1.(g) Land Value Appraisal Commission $27,400- pass.

8.2. Property Management (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $156,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $22,500-pass.

8.2.(b) Physical Plant (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $13,840,500-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $29,810,200-pass; (3) Preventative Maintenance $161,000-pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,000)-pass.

8.2.(c) Leased Properties (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $49,500-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $17,258,000-pass.

8.2.(d) Property Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $334,100-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $244,700-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($247,000)-pass.

8.2.(e) Security and Parking (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,629,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $603,700-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,633,000)-pass.

8.2.(f) Accommodation Cost Recovery ($41,052,100)-pass.

Resolution 8.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $22,121,800 for Government Services, Property Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

8.3. Supply and Services (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $169,700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $16,200-pass.

8.3.(b) Government Air Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,367,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $5,134,400-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($8,501,700)-pass.

8.3.(c) Office Equipment Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $484,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,764,100-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($2,248,900)-pass.

8.3.(d) Purchasing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,087,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $378,500-pass.

8.3.(e) Telecommunications (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $942,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $5,039,400-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($5,313,000)-pass.

8.3.(f) Mail Management Agency, no funds-pass.

8.3.(g) Materials Distribution Agency, no funds-pass.

8.3.(h) Land Management Services, no funds-pass.

8.3.(j) Fleet Vehicles Agency, no funds-pass.

Resolution 8.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,320,800 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

8.4. (a) Accommodation Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,915,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $715,500-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($495,000)-pass.

8.4.(b) Workshop Renovations (1) Salaries, Wages and Employee Benefits $1,955,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $248,900-pass; (3) Workshop Projects $2,575,000-pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,779,300)-pass.

Resolution 8.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,136,400 for Government Services, Accommodation Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

8.5. Emergency Management Organization (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $643,300-pass; (b) Other Expenditures $297,500-pass.

Resolution 8.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $940,800 for Emergency Management Organization for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

6. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Capital Projects $16,175,100-pass.

Resolution 8.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $16,175,100 for Expenditures Related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

The last item we have is the Minister's Salary. The staff are gone. 1.(a) Minister's Salary $25,700-pass.

Resolution 8.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,649,500 for Administration for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

This completes the Estimates of the Department of Government Services.