Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.
We are on Resolution 13.3. Small Business and Corporate Planning Services (a) Corporate Planning and Business Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Chairman, when we last adjourned, I was in the middle of responding to a question that was asked of me with regard to education in the Northwest Territories and our involvement in not only the education side but also the business side in the Northwest Territories.
There was a suggestion that, perhaps, Manitoba was losing ground to Quebec in the Northwest Territories, and I indicated to the members opposite at the time that was not the case, that, in fact, Manitoba has always had a presence and it has been a long-time presence in the Northwest Territories, and that the area that we have done business with in the Northwest Territories has basically been the Keewatin region, which includes communities like Arviat, Rankin Inlet, Baker Lake and so forth.
Mr. Chairman, there has been a liaison that has been ongoing between Manitoba and the Northwest Territories. As a matter of fact, for the Keewatin region, one of the areas that there has been a close working relationship in has been the area of health. Many of those communities in the Keewatin region use Churchill as their primary health centre, and many who need further health care are transferred oftentimes to St. Boniface or the Health Sciences Centre here in Winnipeg.
In addition to that, there has been an agreement and a working relationship between the University of Manitoba and the Keewatin region, and we have also supplied services in education to students in the Northwest Territories as well.
The eastern Arctic, or the eastern Keewatin region is the least populated area of the Northwest Territories. The larger populations do exist on the western side, and for that reason there has been a lot more activity between that part of the Northwest Territories and other provinces. The principal province that has supplied many of the services to the Northwest Territories, or at least the western side, has been Alberta, and there are certainly close links between Edmonton and Yellowknife and communities in the western Arctic.
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Mr. Chairman, I do not want the impression to be left that Manitoba has been losing ground because we have not. The reality is that as the new territory of Nunavut gets closer to becoming a reality, we have other players who are making their way into the territory, are looking for additional links, and are in fact ensuring that people are aware that they exist and they are eager for trade. That is really why I was happy to lead a delegation of business people to the Northwest Territories to meet with business people in the Northwest Territories, to meet with mayors and also councils in the Northwest Territories, along with government officials and elected people, including the Premier of the Northwest Territories, to ensure that they understood that we were willing and able to deliver services to them. But not only that, we were also there to ensure that the benefits would be two ways, so that there were goods and services at present in the Northwest Territories that Manitoba could use, and we could also engage in some two-way trade activity for the future.
In addition to that, we addressed the areas of health and education. We had people with our delegation who represented those areas, and I would have to say that, by and large, the reception by the communities in the Northwest Territories was very positive. It was our first excursion to Iqaluit, which is going to be the capital of the new territory of Nunavut, and the reception there was overwhelmingly positive. Although about 15 percent of the population of Iqaluit is French speaking--it was the first time that we had been to that community, as I indicated to the members last week--there were people there who had gotten their education and their training in Manitoba who are now working the Keewatin region and Iqaluit. Certainly they look forward to the day when we can establish even closer ties with regard to training.
As the new government takes over in Nunavut, there will be many areas that we as a province can assist. As a new government is established, I know that they will be looking for professional advice from provinces and jurisdictions where governments already are mature, and to that extent I know that they will be looking at Manitoba. We have now established some, at least beginnings, in that regard.
There are a whole series of areas that we can participate in, not just health and education, but in trade. As members opposite would know, the Northwest Territories basically purchases all of their food products, with the exception of those that they find in the Northwest Territories, from someone, and Winnipeg has been the major resupplier of those goods. Resupply is a major issue for the Northwest Territories. It is the resupply of dry goods, also of things such as fuel, which is a very important aspect in the Northwest Territories because that is how their electricity is generated and that is how they keep their homes warm.
In the whole area of housing, Mr. Chairman, we have an opportunity because every two-by-four, every piece of lumber, is purchased for housing in the Northwest Territories. There certainly is opportunity for people in that industry in Manitoba to tie closer links with the communities and the business people in the Northwest Territories, and that opportunity was certainly made evident when we were there in January.
Although we are entering a new phase with regard to a new territory, we are looking forward to not only continuing but to enhancing our ability and our activity as it relates to the Northwest Territories. As the mayors and the people pointed out, it is the first time that there has been a substantial delegation of people from Manitoba in the Northwest Territories to touch base with customers, with potential traders, with potential people who can do business back and forth with Manitoba.
Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I thank the minister for the explanation. It does seem that it is very important that we do our best as the Province of Manitoba to establish the co-operation between and negotiations between the Northwest Territories and ourselves in these different departments and different issues that the minister mentioned. Certainly, we would like to see the minister's department and the government of the day expand further with negotiations. Can the minister indicate if there are any negotiations that are in place or soon to be in place that will endorse a potential future working agreement with the Northwest Territories, or are we waiting until everything is settled within the Northwest Territories to establish themselves as a government?
Mr. Derkach: Areas that there is activity going on at the present time are areas that relate to the cost of supplying energy through our hydroelectric system to customers in the Northwest Territories. One of the reasons for that, of course, is the activity that is taking place in mining in the Keewatin region. There is a significant potential in mining, but, as the member knows, the mines take a large amount of power and energy. So there is some work going on in that regard, and it is also a way of perhaps complementing some of the energy that is being produced now through diesel in the Northwest Territories.
In addition to that, we are looking at the possibility or the feasibility of a winter road. That has been looked at for some time, but I think that it is being looked at in a more serious manner at this time. In addition to that, we are looking at the possibility of an individual who could act as a liaison between the government of the new territory and Manitoba who might be able to tie closer links between our two jurisdictions through the use of an office and, if you like, a liaison person, but that is something that is being considered at this time. It is not a reality yet.
In addition to that, we have worked with the communities in the Northwest Territories, showing them the successes that we have had with our community round tables. Indeed, Mr. Ross Thompson from my department who works in the Northwest Territories has worked with several of the communities regarding a community round table. They are embracing the concept and using it to determine what their goals and their strengths and their objectives might be for the future.
Another initiative that is being looked at is this whole area of birth certificates is one that is causing some concern to the people of the Northwest Territories. They would like at least a commemorative birth certificate that shows which area of the Northwest Territories they originate from. So that could be incorporated into at least a commemorative birth certificate for them.
There are other areas as well. The area of food processing technology is one that is being pursued by both staff from our province and people in the Northwest Territories. So there are a variety of areas that are being worked on as we speak, Mr. Chairman.
I guess one of the areas that I have not touched on is the area of tourism. The Northwest Territories is known as a tremendous place for tourists from places like Japan, especially when it comes to the northern lights. It is basically the winter tourism that takes place for that purpose. That is an area where we think there is some potential for us to work together and co-operatively, and that is going to happen as well.
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Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that information. Just to make a comment on his final comment as far as tourism goes, that would probably be a tremendous benefit for us to be able to work out some sort of liaison with that in tourism. Certainly, we also should not forget our own Manitoba and rural Manitoba, as well, as far as tourism goes. So perhaps in further negotiations when it comes to the tourism industry, we might also focus on making Manitoba and northern Manitoba a major portion of the tourism aspect for the Northwest Territories.
But I appreciate the minister keeping us informed as to how negotiations are proceeding, and I will certainly look forward to--the minister mentioned to my colleague from Swan River, or it might have been to myself, that the Northwest Territories is being represented at the Rural Forum at the end of this month, so it will be interesting to see their displays and to perhaps have the opportunity to discuss with those representatives who are here just how they see Manitoba for their future. So I appreciate those comments.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, just to add to my response to the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) who asked about the education links between Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, I indicated there was an agreement between Keewatin Community College and the Keewatin region--there is an agreement between the college and the Nunavut arctic college in Iqaluit in Rankin Inlet.
The agreement that has been entered into is for the co-operation of and joint education training programs in areas such as health, northern communications, various building trades such as heating, mechanical and electrical, mining trades, heavy equipment operators, mill rights and freight management.
Mr. Chairman, these are the areas that are being pursued in terms of a mutual agreement between Keewatin Community College and the arctic college in Nunavut.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue on this line. Could the minister indicate, the Corporate Planning and Business Development branch--if you want to call it that--does this part of Rural Development assist in the development or the research or proposals for the hog industries? Is this part of the department a part of the advisory committee that deals with the planning aspect for rural municipalities when it comes to the hog operations and what role does the Rural Development department play and what is their mandate?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, yes, this is the branch that does involve itself with the livestock industry, in general, and the expansion of it. Depending on which area there is activity in, we have staff in our regional offices who do involve themselves in the technical committees that are set up to work with the municipalities and producers, and this is something that has been ongoing.
As the member knows, we are also working with municipalities to develop planning districts and development plans. We have eight or nine such municipalities who are requesting development plans, and we are working with them as well to help them in the expanding of the livestock industry. Certainly that is what is driving some of these municipalities to want development plans and so forth.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, the minister commented that there have been eight or nine municipalities that have approached Rural Development in setting up some sort of a plan, a development plan within their jurisdictions for the expansion of the hog industry. If that is the case, can the minister indicate who those municipalities are and for what purpose would they be coming to rural development specifically or are they going to other departments in establishing their plan for the potential future hog industry?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we have eight or nine municipalities that have come to the department and have requested that we assist them in establishing planning districts. These are municipalities who are not in a planning district at the present time. They are either requesting that they join a planning district or that a new planning district be established in a region, and staff from my department, as has been the case previously, work with municipalities to establish planning districts throughout the province. That is basically the work of the planning side of our department, and we are trying to encourage as many municipalities as possible to get on board and to develop plans and to become involved in planning districts, because we think that there is such a benefit that can accrue to them when it comes to expanding businesses, expanding initiatives such as the hog initiative throughout the province.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, would the department also be involved and how would they be involved in helping municipalities that do not have any conditional use of by-laws within their jurisdictions or zoning by-laws as such that perhaps want to establish those by-laws and put them into place? How much of a role does the department have with that? Do they assist them in putting together their proposals? Do they encourage different aspects of the by-law? Do they discourage anything that may be put in place that perhaps the government may feel is not legitimate enough to have as a part of the by-law? What role does the department play with that?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the role of my department is to assist municipalities in putting together by-laws and putting together development plans. We walk municipalities through the process. We assist them. We help them with any issues or difficulties that they may have as they go through the process, so basically we are there as a catalyst to allow the end result to take place. We also are there to answer questions. Municipalities do have lots of questions when it comes to things like development plans, when it comes to planning districts and when it comes to assisting them in ensuring that they follow good practices with regard to an expanding industry.
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Mr. Clif Evans: If I remember correctly, my honourable colleague from Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) asked the minister a question in the House pertaining to the specifics that Rural Development was, if I may use the word correctly, interfering with due process. Has this matter that my colleague brought up---has that been addressed, and is this part and parcel of what this department does?
Mr. Derkach: No, it is not part and parcel, and the member uses the term "interfering." We do not interfere in what municipalities do; rather, we assist them. But it is also our responsibility to advise municipalities if in fact they are moving in a direction which could lead them into some difficulty. The member refers to a question that was asked by the member for Swan River regarding a letter that was sent from one of our directors to a couple of municipalities regarding their use of The Municipal Act to try and stop development, a particular kind of development, in the municipality. What was being, I guess, communicated in the letter was that there are legitimate and appropriate ways to deal with a proposed development if the municipality wants to do that; however, using a nuisance by-law under The Municipal Act was not an appropriate way to try and stop a particular type of development in a municipality because The Municipal Act did not contemplate using the nuisance by-law to stop a development in a municipality.
Mr. Clif Evans: So, if the Department of Rural Development feels that the municipality jurisdiction wants to change or to implement, or provide changes to its local by-laws, the minister is saying that his department would then go and advise the jurisdiction on how they should implement their own by-laws? Is the minister saying that not only the Department of Rural Development but the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Environment have the mandate to go to a municipality and make suggestions that perhaps their by-law or their wishes are not in accordance with economic development and the benefit of large operations in their jurisdiction? Is that what the minister is indicating, because that is what it seems?
Mr. Derkach: No, I think the member maybe is not understanding what the purpose of the advice is. The purpose of the advice is to ensure that a municipality is not using an incorrect act to instruct the proponent about a development, that in fact the municipality should use an appropriate act to do so. In this case the municipality was using not only a part of the act, they were using the incorrect act to deal with the development. The Planning Act is where, in this case, the municipality should have been addressing the issue in, and not in The Municipal Act.
So we were not interfering, we were not directing, we were simply cautioning the municipality that this was an area that could in fact pose a problem for them down the road, if they tried to insist that a development be curtailed under The Municipal Act.
Mr. Clif Evans: Now, if the municipality is part of a planning district and wants to make changes within their by-laws, their local by-laws, is the opportunity there for them to pass or to put forward to the planning district what they are proposing, and would the planning district itself be a part of the changes? Would the department just allow, let the jurisdiction apply their by-laws as they see fit? Would there be any collaboration between the department and the jurisdiction in that situation, if they were part of a planning district, and if they wanted to make changes?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the by-laws are dealt with at the municipal level, but let me say that in all cases where a municipality would want some advice and some assistance, because our staff do have the experience and do have the knowledge of the various acts, then certainly that is what our regional staff are there for, and they would be more than happy to help a municipality along, and we do that.
Mr. Clif Evans: The Department of Rural Development is part of the advisory committee that is in place that takes the proposals of proponents, or the proposals of engineers who are making their proposals to the local jurisdictions. Is the Rural Development department in that advisory committee part of that advisory group specifically and only for the benefit of economic development for rural Manitoba, or are they there to endorse the proposed plans? If they are there to also endorse the proposed plans, how can the minister--my question I guess would be: why would the department be getting involved in being a part of an endorsement committee instead of an advisory committee, as far as whether economic development would benefit in that rural community, whether the proposal is beneficial or not to the area?
Mr. Derkach: It is quite clear under the act today that in fact the final decision is that of the municipality, it is not that of the department. We will provide advice. Our committees will review plans and they will send them back to a municipality outlining the advice or the caution or whatever advice might be required. It is not a committee of the department alone; it is a body that is made up of individuals from several departments who sit on the committee and then give their advice to the--well, it is either the planning district or perhaps the municipality.
Mr. Clif Evans: What the minister made comment on--I wanted to raise an issue, and I do not know if I did raise this with the last Estimates. When he says that it is the municipality's jurisdiction to make the final decision on the proposal, but what we see is that there is in place and it did occur in one of my jurisdictions in my constituency, where the decision to change the conditional use by-laws on a specific proposal and wanting some time to implement it and going through due process, they were threatened with lawsuits. Individual councillors were threatened with law suits.
I cannot understand, if the minister says, well, it is up to the municipality to make a decision on a proposal, then it should also be up to them to implement any type of changes that they may want without any kind of a cloud of a lawsuit being put in place. As such, the changes were not allowed to go through at that time, and the proposal went ahead without really a finalization of the planning district. What I am trying to say is that Rural Development, if it is their advisory committee or an advisory part of their committee, I am not sure whether the jurisdiction came to the Department of Rural Development and asked what position it was being put in and if that position would get any support from the department as far as The Municipal Act and as far as what the municipality wanted to implement.
So it just seems that perhaps in some areas, there is a shadow that is over some of these municipalities that perhaps want to support and endorse a proposal. I am not saying that they were against the proposal. I am just saying they wanted more time. This goes back a couple of years when there was the proponent threatened through letter with a lawsuit to individual councillors. So, when you put people in a position like that, how can councils make a decision that will benefit their rural area and their economy and support the proposal when they are not being allowed to go ahead with doing what they wanted to do?
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Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we review projects or plans from a technical perspective, or the committee does at least, and the advice given back to the municipalities. Now we also encourage municipalities to use their own legal people, and that does not say that they will not be challenged by a lawsuit from a proponent. I mean, that can happen at any time, but we simply give them the best advice that we can give them based on the information that we receive.
We encourage them to seek legal counsel of their own, and then they have to make the decisions after that time. Certainly, they are always open to legal challenge by a proponent if that proponent wants to do so, but that does not mean we have instructed the proponent or we have encouraged the proponent or any such thing with regard to a proposal. We simply give the municipality some professional advice and professional, I guess, overview of a situation and then allow them to make their decisions from there.
Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister explain under the Activity Identification paragraph: "Represents rural Manitoba and municipal government interests in interdepartmental and intergovernmental forums"--is that the Rural Forum that the minister is talking about? What is the interpretation of those activities?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure whether I am following the member's question correctly, but if he is referring to the Interdepartmental Planning Board, this is a board that is made up of senior officials from departments who look at various issues that come before them. Then, because they are made up from different departments of government, their advice goes to the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet who would then deal with the issue. I chair the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet. So the advice would come to that committee. The committee would then make their recommendations to cabinet and to government.
Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister. That was the next line I was going to go to. This Activity Identification says: "Represents rural Manitoba and municipal government interests in interdepartmental and intergovernmental forums." Forums. So just exactly how does the department, what role do they play under that Activity Identification?
Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chairman, as a department, our role is to be advocates for our clients in rural Manitoba, whether they are municipalities or whether they are, in fact, economic development groups across Manitoba. It is our responsibility to represent them or to advocate for them before other departments or before other government agencies or government functions. So, whether it is at the provincial level or even at the national level, our role as a department is to be the advocate for the people that we are supposed to speak for, and those are the various agencies, organizations in rural Manitoba.
Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that.
Now the minister in his previous response referred to the Interdepartmental Planning Board. It also states that the department--and I guess the minister, as he said, serves as a secretariat function to the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet and the IPB and carries out their directives. Can the minister indicate what type of directives would come from these two committees, and does the PLUC committee deal with all aspects of land use, whether it be through the Department of Agriculture with Crown lands, or the Department of Environment, or exchanges of lands? What is the role of the PLUC with Rural Development involved?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, this is the committee that would deal with issues like provincial land use policies. We would deal also with appeals that may come before the board from individuals who may wish to purchase a piece of land but have been denied, and they would come to this department, because it is Crown land. They would come to this committee, not this department, with their appeal, and their appeal would be heard at this committee. This whole area of provincial land use policies is both dealt with at the official level or the staff level through IPB which brings together officials from a variety of departments who then make their recommendation to the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet. I might add that the IPB group is chaired by my deputy, and the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet is chaired by myself.
Mr. Clif Evans: So the PLUC is there, as the minister said, to deal with any problems that might arise out of application, or does this committee deal with land that may be taken away for whatever reason from them? What else does it exactly deal with besides the appeal process of making sure that somebody has been turned down, that they have the proper appeal process to go? Also, I would appreciate knowing who else sits on this committee, on the PLUC committee.
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Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chairman, an example of the kind of functions that are undertaken by this committee, and I would like to refer the member back to the review of the provincial land use policies that were done in 1995-96, I believe--[interjection]--'94, I am sorry, back in 1994 where the proposals were put before the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet, and from there, after having been reviewed by this committee and recommendations made, the initiative did go to government for final endorsement.
So it is a clearinghouse. It is a way of getting people around the table who come from various departments that have some interest in these issues to be able to put their heads together and determine what the best way to resolve an issue or issues may be or what best approach can be taken.
The membership on the committee is--as I indicated to the member, I am the chair of this committee. We have the Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey).
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, then this committee, chaired by the Minister of Rural Development, does this committee hear complaints of how land may be or may not be used within an area leased by anybody, owned by anybody? Does anything such as that go before this committee in dealing with these types of complaints, or is it strictly and specifically a committee that deals with people getting turned down in requesting that they purchase land?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the appeals that the committee deals with are appeals that relate to either leases on Crown lands or perhaps sales, potential sales of Crown lands, and then those recommendations go forward to government, but it also deals with the broader issues of land use policies and those are basically the major functions of this Land Use Committee.
Mr. Clif Evans: So then the committee could deny a proposed purchase of land saying that what they plan on doing on the land that they are wanting to purchase does not fall into the broad land use scope of government; so they could be denied. If they are not operating the land in a sustainable way, can the land be taken away under this committee? Can it be suggested to the government or to the department that it can be taken away?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we have never faced an issue where we have had to consider taking land away from someone who is leasing Crown land, but usually staff in the departments would deal with the individual on a one-to-one basis. If there are problems, those are usually dealt with far before they get to the committee. What the committee would do is hear when there are changes required to land use policies. We are a policy group; therefore, we would hear those.
In addition to that, this body is also an appeal for someone who disagrees with a decision that is made by the IPB or by the staff in the field and wants to appeal a decision. As an example, if in fact an individual who has been leasing land applies to purchase the land, and, for some reason the department, after looking at the situation, recommend that the land not be sold and that decision is given back to the proponent, the proponent may in fact wish to appeal that decision. So his appeal or her appeal would then go to the Provincial Land Use Committee and then be heard. But that is just one function of the committee, and certainly there are not a lot of those that come before the committee. The committee deals with broader issues and, as I indicated, the one that is before us from time to time is the issue that deals with provincial land use policies.
Mr. Clif Evans: So the minister is saying someone could hypothetically, as he is saying, make a point of someone leasing and then wanting to purchase. In the process of looking over the proposal to purchase, if there was anything in that from either one of the departments that it should or should not go, or should or should not be, then this committee would undertake to resolve that and approve or not approve the potential proposed wish to purchase.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, this is not a board that operates in isolation. We do rely heavily on the advice that we receive from the staff in the various departments that have a direct interest in an issue or in the decisions of this board. So, before a decision is rendered, it is certainly one that is researched carefully. We rely on the advice that comes before us from our staff. Then we also consider the proponent's view, and someone has to make a decision in the end. Our decisions, as I indicated, go to government and then they become law.
Mr. Clif Evans: So, if there is any type of dispute or problem within the proponent's proposal of purchasing, each department that would be involved would make the recommendations or advise the committee of what has been transpiring and going on. So, if there was any one of the departments that let this committee know about the proposal, have a problem with, would this committee, then, and its decision go and be made available to saying, yes, it is okay, the proponent is doing everything that he is supposed to be doing, however there is this problem or that problem? Does this committee refer it back to the proponents, say, look, this is what we are understanding is happening and this has to be corrected, or that has to be corrected, before we will hear your proposal to purchase? Would this committee make the decision, and after this decision is made, does this then go on to the Department of Natural Resources for the administration part of the purchase of land?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, when a matter comes before the board, certainly we seek advice from the people within our departments. It may mean that sometimes we may require more information on a particular issue, or we may want to ensure that perhaps some of the habitat is protected in some way, and for that reason there may have to be further discussions and caveats that might have to be agreed to with regard to a piece of property, if it is highly susceptible to erosion, or if it is a particular wildlife habitat. Those circumstances vary from case to case, but in all cases, we certainly do consult with staff and also take advice from the outside, because we do not want to simply take one point of view. Our responsibility is to try and act on matters and issues in a fair and impartial way.
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Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for comments on that. Can the minister indicate what efforts that will include rural telecommunication and information highway initiatives, can he explain what is his department's role in providing and getting those results, some of the programs that are available, if there are, or what initiatives is his department taking to provide these and support rural telecommunication and information highway initiatives?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the whole area of telecommunication and better usage of the technology that we have available to us, this branch or the department did in fact, with the advice of the Rural Advisory Committee and their participation, we did sponsor a workshop in Winkler last fall with regard to the Internet. We did one in Dauphin as well. Since that time, we have had requests from other communities to hold those kinds of workshops to assist their citizens in the use of the Internet. In addition to that, I guess staff in my department do participate with the committee that is structured to ensure that rural communities have access to the whole area of telecommunications. So in that regard, we are involved. We promote Internet awareness to rural communities, to our municipalities, and we also work in conjunction with the Department of Education and Training and the MERLIN group as they put facilities and put the infrastructure in and make sure the programs are available to educate people on the use of the technology that is available to them.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, is there money available through the Department of Rural Development for this initiative, or is it just an advisory and support that the department provides?
Mr. Derkach: We provide a limited amount of support for the workshops, the Internet workshops. We did provide some support to Winkler and to Dauphin and in the program where the federal government has provided the $25,000 to communities to get hooked up to the Internet and to provide the servers, we provide the in-kind support. We do not provide any cash for those projects and that program. So the amount of support financially that is given from the department is limited, but it is very important because it does allow, for example in those workshops, communities to come together to pay for some of the costs that they incur to put these on.
Mr. Clif Evans: I encourage the minister's department on that item to be a part of that process, and hopefully I do support that rural telecommunications and the initiatives that have come forth that have been brought to my attention in the past year or two to expand their availability of having the information highway available. Telecommunications is an important aspect for rural communities. I hope that we can expand those workshops to larger areas and more centres as it becomes available to them.
Can we deal with the natural gas issue in this line?
Mr. Derkach: It does not really matter. We can deal with it here or we can deal with it under Infrastructure. If the member wishes to ask questions of a technical nature where we need some information from staff, they will be available at that time.
Mr. Clif Evans: I have a few questions on the expenditure side of this department, this line. Can the minister just indicate what the line transfer where--1997-98 Expenditures, we had $12,000; this year there is nothing. Can you just indicate what that line refers to?
Mr. Derkach: This branch was created just a few years ago, Mr. Chairman, and has been a very active one since that time. Because of the increased activity that is taking place within this department, there were some funds necessary to carry out those activities, and so the $12,000 that the member refers to is money that is transferred from other areas of the department to this particular branch.
Mr. Clif Evans: Under other operating, it is a $12,000 item, 12.9, almost $13,000. It has gone up a few thousand dollars, but under operating, with this specific line and this specific department, what does that entail and what are the costs that would be undertaken under other operating? Would that include any kind of computer equipment?
Mr. Derkach: Items that would be included in that are such things as publications, seminar fees, accommodations for staff who might be travelling on work. So it is a variety of miscellaneous expenditures that would be captured under that particular expenditure.
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Mr. Clif Evans: Would publications include this publication on the Rural Forum?
Mr. Derkach: No, that is covered under a different area.
Mr. Clif Evans: What area and how much?
Mr. Derkach: That brochure is paid for under our forum budget, and the cost of that was about $1.36 per brochure or per booklet. We produced 25,000 copies of the magazine, and the total cost of that is about $34,000.
Mr. Clif Evans: For this year it has a lot of good information, and it has some nice pictures, and it details everything out quite well. [interjection] Well, yes, there he is smiling as ever, yes, of course.
I think the minister knows that I have been a very interested party as far as attending the forum and trying to be a part of it as much as I can to see what is going on and how things are developing for our rural economy. I do not know what questions the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) asked on the Rural Forum, specifically.
Can the minister, to this date--and we are only a few weeks away from the Rural Forum-- just indicate this year how many exhibits and people he hopes to be participating? Has he got a consensus already of approximately what we might be seeing this year as far as participants and what he is hoping for as far as general admission and interest throughout the province?
Mr. Derkach: I did address part of this with the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), but I am happy to do it again. We are anticipating about 350 exhibits this year. That is up from last year. There are registrations coming in as we speak, and that is up over last year at this time, so we are ahead of last year. We are expecting 500 youth at the forum this year. Once again, that is up and ahead of last year.
The participation from others is also up. We have people who have registered for the forum from the Northwest Territories, from northern communities. We have several provincial ministers who have indicated that they will be attending, including a minister from the Northwest Territories. We also are expecting a federal minister to be present at the forum from the indications that we have received to date. So all in all, it looks like the participation level is going to be higher than it was last year, at least the interest at this point in time seems to indicate that at this time. You know we are still a couple of weeks away, so we are expecting that there will be others and more registrations coming in as we get closer to the event.
We have in the participation of the forum, some excellent partners. One of the ones that I must make mention of is the Community Newspapers Association and the community newspapers of Manitoba who have taken a very keen interest in the partnership in the forum. That is very encouraging because it is another way of sending the message back to communities around this province about what really takes place at the forum and the kind of networking opportunities that are available and also the celebration of the successes of rural Manitoba businesses throughout the province.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I look forward to attending again this year. I wonder if the minister, and I am sure he does--we have discussed the Rural Forum over the past couple of years and what I thought perhaps was lacking--whether the minister's department approached--and I talked about the community colleges being involved, but also the labour end of it in having something available so that our young people in Manitoba can also not only just look at an entrepreneurial side of things, they have to look at an education side of it. I know there are education forums also where you have the opportunity to see how trades and such are an integral part of our rural economy, you know, construction trades or carpentry, et cetera. It goes on and on. We feel on this side it would be good to also have those as a partner within this Rural Forum. I mean, it is for the whole scope of our young people to see just what is out in the world besides a restaurant or a gas bar.
The minister understands what I am saying because we have discussed it. Has there been anything that we can look to this year? Was there an opportunity to approach our labour people to providing booths at the forum?
Mr. Derkach: As the member knows, we do have participation from the Union of Manitoba Municipalities who certainly have their display there, and their participation is there. We have representation from Brandon University, Keewatin Community College, Red River, Assiniboine Community College. They are all invited to participate in the forum. Through the training that they provide at their colleges, certainly, that element is present in the forum.
In addition to that, we have reached out to the city of Winnipeg, people in the city of Winnipeg, and we have asked them to become involved in the forum as well, so we do not turn anyone away from the forum. If there were plumbers or carpenters, and there are, who want to display or put up displays, we certainly welcome them and encourage them to participate.
Mr. Clif Evans: A final question on the forum. This booklet itself you said cost $34,000--for the total cost of $34,000. Can the minister just indicate who did the printing, what company did the printing?
Mr. Derkach: Just a minute, please. The printing of that magazine was tendered by Information Resources Division of the government, and the printing went to Print Crafters out of Winnipeg. The design went to George Taylor, Taylor George of Winnipeg. Is it George Taylor or is it Taylor George of Winnipeg? I am not familiar with these, I am sorry. And the mailing went to Dicom of Winnipeg.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for the Interlake, are you ready to pass?
Item 13.3. Small Business and Corporate Planning Services (a) Corporate Planning and Business Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $639,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $93,200--pass.
Item 13.3.(b) Small Business and Community Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207,500--
Some Honourable Members: Pass.
An Honourable Member: No.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 13.3.(b)(2) Other Expenditures $58,900.
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Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I had indicated that I would pass Corporate Planning and Business Development and then recess for 10 minutes and then continue. If that is all right with the minister, the department and the Chair.
Mr. Chairperson: Yes, that is what we will do.
Mr. Clif Evans: No, you said going on to 13.3.(b).
An Honourable Member: You do not want to pass 13.3.(b)?
Mr. Chairperson: Well, do you want to take a recess now, then?
An Honourable Member: Yes.
Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to take a recess?
An Honourable Member: After passing 13.3.(a).
Mr. Chairperson: We did that already, 13.3.(a), we have already passed. That has already been passed. We are up to 13.3.(b)(2)--somewhere in that area. [interjection] We did not pass (1)? We are dealing with (b)(1).
Recess 10 minutes.
The committee recessed at 3:52 p.m.
The committee resumed at 4:08 p.m.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 13.3. Small Business and Corporate Planning Services (b) Small Business and Community Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207,500.
Mr. Clif Evans: We are under 13.3.(b). Can the minister just tell us some of the programs and some of the initiatives that this part of the department deals with?
Mr. Derkach: Before I answer the question, I would just like to introduce the Director of Small Business and Community Support Branch, Mr. Paul Staats, who has joined us.
Mr. Chairman, this particular branch of the department is to assist the department with marketing opportunities and information presentations with regard to programs that the department provides, the services that the department provides, and also to ensure that Manitobans understand what areas of the department are all about, such as the Food Development Centre, which is an important part of the development, especially on the economic development side, specifically as it relates to the value-added side of economic development.
This branch also co-ordinates, on behalf of local communities and small businesses, with various government departments, whether it is Agriculture or whether it is I, T and T, between these departments and the private sector, and in addition to that they have been delivering marketing seminars, marketing services to rural Manitobans.
During Small Business Week, this branch was instrumental in assisting communities to put together marketing and business development seminars throughout the province. This was the first time that we did this. These seminars were attended by many small businesses in the province who certainly found it to be enriching and rewarding in many aspects, because they were able to network, they were able to look at their own business in a critical way and to help their own business to meet their needs as they enter into a competitive market. There were MLAs who were in attendance at these seminars. I believe the MLA for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) was present at the Dauphin seminar when we were there.
So these are just some of the highlights, if you like, or some of the major areas that this branch is involved with, Mr. Chair.
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Mr. Clif Evans: The community round tables, is that part of this leg of the department, or does it just assist in getting community round tables together with other agencies and groups to work together to see how they can make their rural area and community as a whole deal with all sorts of issues, bringing businesses in, providing support for small businesses? Is that part of it, or are community round tables just a specific other portion of the department?
Mr. Derkach: The branch really works with several areas within the department, and the round tables are one area where the branch provides information or supports the round tables in terms of any information that they require, and it puts together the community round table report, the annual report that is put together for them. Basically, it is the marketing arm of the department, Mr. Chairman, that looks after making sure that the communication between various aspects of our department and other departments is there for the private sector.
As the member knows, we put together the community--it is not the newspaper, it is Rural Development's newsletter that goes out to the communities. We do that several times a year to ensure that rural Manitobans know what is going on in their part of the province with regard to new businesses starting up, new opportunities that might be available, programs that are being developed in various departments of government and also to highlight some of the success stories that are present in rural Manitoba. As a matter of fact, the next issue of the Rural Development's newsletter is due in the latter part of this month before the Rural Forum.
If I might add to that, Mr. Chairman, we also do the production of the CD-ROM presentation profiling the department's programs and initiatives. I think the member probably has a copy of it. I think we delivered one some time ago to the member with regard to programs and initiatives that take place in the department as well.
Mr. Clif Evans: No, I do not recall seeing a CD-ROM of any kind. I would be interested in receiving it. It would not do me all that much good as far as the ROM itself goes. I would have to get my son to do the rest of it just to be able to see it, but I would appreciate getting a copy of it. I do apologize to the minister in saying that I have not seen it nor a letter of any kind promoting it.
While I have the floor, if the minister can just also indicate about--did we discuss this departmental radio show last year? My memory does not serve me correctly. Did we deal with it last year?
Mr. Derkach: Yes, we did, Mr. Chairman. I will indicate to the member now that I would be happy to share a copy of the CD-ROM with him if he does not have one. I was sure that we had forwarded some over to him and his colleagues, but I will make sure that he has one just as soon as we can get one.
Mr. Clif Evans: The radio show, can the minister just indicate to the House what this radio show has been doing in the past year or what its mandate is besides its production and advertising co-ordination? Where is it on the radio dial?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, they were just 90-second vignettes, I think, of success stories in rural Manitoba, and they ran, I believe, on most of the rural radio stations last year--on all of them. They were designed to promote the successes of rural Manitobans in the area of small business. They featured direct commentary from small businesses, from community leaders, from community people about the successes of small entrepreneurs and businesses throughout the province. We will be doing a similar kind of thing this year, but it will run in the latter part of May.
Mr. Clif Evans: What the minister is saying is all the production and everything is done by the department, or is it like an advertisement, purchasing advertisement time on your local radio stations? What is the cost of this production?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the work is tendered out. It is not done in-house. It is tendered out through the information resources department. Staff from our department do assist and do the co-ordination of it to ensure that the message is in fact the one that--or at least the intent of the programming does not change from what we anticipate or what our objectives and our goals were, and the cost of this is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $34,000 to $35,000 a year. It runs for, I am told, 10 weeks on all radio stations.
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Mr. Clif Evans: Some $34,000 to $35,000 for 10 weeks. Is that a consecutive 10 weeks, or is that a couple of weeks here and a couple of weeks there? It would seem, I mean, we are putting out money, and I have no problem in having someone tell me about a success story in rural Manitoba, no matter what kind of a success story it was, but is there no other way that we might be able to let the people of Manitoba know about some of the successes in a lot cheaper, cost-efficient way than going on the radio for 10 weeks at that amount of money? I am sure there are other media or there are other ways of letting the people know if it is just someone coming on telling their story. I am not being critical of the concept. I am being critical of the price.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the programs run daily for the 10 week period. There are two or three spots per day on all rural radio stations. These spots also promote programs that the Rural Development department has. Now, it is probably, if you calculate the number of times that Manitobans hear these throughout Manitoba and the number of times they are run, it is a fairly inexpensive investment overall because of the exposure that we receive from it.
But we also do other things, an example being the Rural Forum. It is another example of promoting what it is that happens in the province. It is a celebration of the success stories. It is an opportunity to network. It is motivating others to get involved in the whole area of economic development and community development and in making sure that their communities do grow.
We also use the Rural Development newsletter to talk about the success stories and some of the programs that we have in our department. If the member recalls a few years ago, Mr. Fred McGuinness began writing the Bootstraps series, which were basically anecdotal stories of successes in Manitoba. So that is another medium that we use.
We also use videos which are produced for the forum and for use in schools and by economic development groups, by councils, by whoever wants to use them, for making sure that the message about not only programs but also about the success stories of Manitoba are heard, because it is through this medium and through this way that we are able to motivate other communities, other entrepreneurs to get involved in economic development, to get involved in community development, to make sure that their communities, in fact, continue to be sustainable and grow.
Mr. Chairman, if I might just add, I have three copies of the CD-ROM that we spoke about, and I would like to share them with the member at this time.
Mr. Clif Evans: No, I can honestly say that I had not seen this before today, so I appreciate it, and I will get my son to come and hook it up, so that I can see what is on it and maybe make comment after that. I do not know how to turn the machine on, so it does not matter.
The minister talked about the media and how we can relate to all Manitobans about the programs available, the success stories and that. Is this information also available on the Internet?
Mr. Derkach: There is too much material there to load onto the Internet, but we have the information available, and if people wish to write to us, we would certainly be more than happy to share it with them and to send it to them so they can use it on their own equipment. That is available from the department at any time.
Mr. Clif Evans: Just one last question on this line. The Estimates points out that marketing assistance to small businesses, as the minister had mentioned, increased the likelihood of success for the ventures of rural entrepreneurs, and I would appreciate some of the successes, if the minister could indicate to us just what are some of the successes that this branch of the department and its input has provided to some of the small businesses, if he could give me some examples today, that, knowing the situation, would specifically encourage small businesses in the communities that I talk to to undertake to go to the Rural Development department.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, at the end of March, we had 274 REDI projects approved and 78 REA projects approved and active. In total, the projects approved to date have been 392. We still have a number of projects that are under review, and that goes on almost constantly.
Now, if I were to take a look at some of the projects that have taken off or are being acted on right now, and these vary from Grow Bonds to REDI projects, but let me just use a couple of examples here. If we look at the Triple S Community Futures, for example, they received some support for looking at a variety of business opportunities in their particular area. We have somebody called Red River Equipment Incorporated, and I do not know these projects offhand. They are from Steinbach. They received some support for expansion of their business. We have Winkler Meats as another example of a business that received support to expand their business. We have Falcon Trails Resort at Falcon Lake that received some support to further develop their resort.
It goes on to larger plants, whether it is plants like McCain Foods or whether it is Crocus Foods or some of these operations which have received assistance from us as well. Rimer Alco is another company. I know the member has heard something about that as well. We have a telecommunications centre in Killarney that received some assistance. We have the grain processors association from Shoal Lake that received some support from us as well.
I can go on and on, Mr. Chairman, but there are companies, in fact, that are operating in our province which have, in fact, received support from us and are operating quite successfully in the province.
Mr. Clif Evans: Support as far as, for example, ABC company out of Riverton was looking at expanding. The product that they have is a very good product. They want to let people throughout the rest of Manitoba know. Is that the type of support, the marketing end of it, that the minister is talking about, or can the ABC company of Riverton, Manitoba, come to the department of rural Manitoba and get financial support as well? That, I believe, would fall under a different category.
The minister mentioned marketing, and marketing is the feasibility of a product being sold and being marketed throughout so that they can expand. Is that what the minister is saying as far as support goes? So this part of the department is a marketing agency for small businesses in rural Manitoba.
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Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact, we do both. This branch does assist companies with marketing. I am told that to date some 20 corporations or companies have received some specific help from our Marketing branch to help them with the marketing of their product. We work in conjunction with their companies, with customers, with clients, to help promote products in our province that are made by these companies.
In addition, these companies sometimes do also receive assistance through our Feasibility Studies Program or our support programs, whether it is REA, or it could be a Grow Bond company and that sort of thing.
There is a marketing book that was produced. We are on the second edition now, and apparently it will be ready around the 24th of April, so our branch is very active, very involved. Mr. Chairman, the member opposite does know about the peat moss operation in his area, and there has been some assistance given to them. But, if you look at our total support, if you look at, for example, the Community Works Program which is our latest program in the whole umbrella of programs here, we have 36, I think, applications have been approved to date, totalling some $2.2 million. We also have in the Grow Bonds area, if you look at the number of projects that were approved, there were 21. The impact of employment as a result of these is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500 new jobs in the province.
If you look at the employment numbers as a whole, the total employment impact as a result of our programs is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,560 without the youth, because there were some 3,400 youth jobs created as a result of the programs that are offered by the department. So for rural Manitoba this has been a very positive and a very direct impact on their communities and their community development.
Mr. Clif Evans: I appreciate some of the minister's input as far as some of the programs and we will have the opportunity to go into detail on them later, but what I am basically asking and/or making comment to is that this part of the department, its main mandate is to assist our small businesses in rural Manitoba in marketing their products so that if the marketing is successful, then, of course, they can expand.
So what I am saying is and my comment was that this branch of the department is a marketing agency for our small businesses in rural Manitoba. The minister mentioned a book of some sort, and a second edition coming out. I wonder if he might elaborate on that, and is that book available for me to see?
Mr. Derkach: One of the, I guess, more common comments that came back to us during earlier forums was that although people had an ability to produce some of the nicest and the finest products, one of the areas that they were having greatest difficulty in was on the marketing side. It is for that reason that this branch was created, and it was to assist businesses to get their businesses off the ground in the area of marketing, to be able to teach them how to market their products, how to approach the market and I think it has been very effective.
Of course, there is always more needed, but with the skeleton staff that we have in this particular branch, it does not allow us to do as much as we would like to do, but nevertheless I think that we are dealing with the situations as they come to us. I think the results have been very, very positive to date.
Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Clif Evans: I want the minister to understand, I am not criticizing this. I am saying that there are and to have something like this available is a positive, because, you are right, with really three people, I believe there are four people in that department, and like the minister said, you have a lot of small businesses in Gypsumville, Manitoba, that do not have the expertise and the time to be able to market northern knowledge to be able to go out and say, well, how can we market or get our widget to go out into the southern half of Manitoba or into Ontario without the opportunity to be able to know the avenues and how to market them.
I mean, a lot of people start up businesses and focus themselves specifically around just one little area and are happy with that, but if you have got a good product that you want to get out, I think it is an important facet of the department that would be able to provide that information and teach them basically how to go about it and have an open door for them. Instead of expanding in a five-mile radius, expand in a 500-mile radius.
No, I do not have a problem with that and support it. Hopefully, it will benefit, not just the companies that the minister mentioned through Grow Bonds, because those are already larger establishments, companies who are already on a larger scale who have been through the marketing part of it. It is the smaller ones that we should be dealing with and assisting on that.
Mr. Derkach: I would have to say and compliment the staff in this branch, because they are an extremely busy bunch even though there are only four of them. At the Forum 98, there will be a marketing seminar and, again, it is designed to help the small businesses with their marketing plans. They have put together a variety of materials for marketing. As I indicated to the member in my previous answer, there is something called Fifty Great Marketing Tips: A Consultant's Directory, which is based on the experiences of rural businesses and other marketing information that will be presented. So this entire package is going to be distributed to all seminar participants who will be at the forum this year. So this is again a new approach that is being taken by this branch. I have to say, I am sometimes amazed at how much they can cover in terms of this broad spectrum of responsibilities that they have regarding communication and marketing.
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Mr. Clif Evans: With the minister's comments on that, we have to focus. I would support it totally, a focus on the fact that we have many smaller businesses that make up the rural communities. Not all communities are fortunate enough to have fairly large industries within their scope and their jurisdiction, so the marketing of a product and the marketing of individuals or a corporation or a company are very important and are getting to be more important. With the availability of media, with the availability of the Internet now, a lot of these small businesses in small communities cannot access those types of marketing situations that they can use because of funding and that. So it is important that we deal with our smaller businesses.
Hopefully, if you can get a percentage of small businesses that come to the department to get assistance in how to market their products, it would be a tremendous benefit if that marketing availability and for the company to go market itself would in fact create a job or two extra because of the more business being brought in through a good marketing plan. Being in business for many years myself, I know that it is not always easy to market a product or market yourself without the proper knowledge and know-how. I would say that is probably one of the tougher focuses, tougher parts of a business, to be able to market what you have so that you can expand, so that you can be successful. To be successful and employ people within your community is a tremendous asset.
Mr. Derkach: Certainly I appreciate the comments of the member. I would just like to present him the first pamphlet or the first booklet of Marketing Basics, and the second one that I spoke about will be out at the end of this month.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 13.3.(b) Small Business and Community Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $58,900--pass, for a subtotal $266,400.
Resolution 13.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $998,800 for Rural Development, Small Business and Corporate Planning Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Chairperson: We will move on to 13.4. Local Government Services (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $116,800.
Mr. Clif Evans: We are at 13.4.(a), are we?
Mr. Chairperson: That is correct.
Mr. Clif Evans: Did the minister need staff for this?
Mr. Derkach: We have with us at the table, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ken Graham, who is the Provincial Municipal Assessor, and also Mr. Roger Dennis, who is the Executive Director of the Local Government Services Division.
Mr. Clif Evans: A few questions on Executive Administration. This arm of Local Government Services, would this arm of the department deal with municipal complaints from people within municipalities on how the operation is being run? What normally is the process for complaints? Writing, phone calls? What normally occurs? I know that I have brought issues to the minister's department. Would this specific part of the department deal with those types of issues?
Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is correct.
Mr. Clif Evans: With the new Municipal Act coming into play, and I am sure there are issues out there in local municipalities, can the minister indicate--it might be a difficult thing to answer--how many new issues has the minister, since the act has come into play, you know, with the municipalities now becoming more accessible to their local jurisdictions, local people, what type of issues does the department receive in complaints about municipalities, let us say, in the past year?
Mr. Derkach: We have a few, Mr. Chairman. The staff do keep track of the issues as they come forward. I am told that there are about 156 times when individuals, municipalities or whoever it might be, have contacted our local Government Services area, I guess, to talk about issues that they are either unhappy with, they want further explanation on, or something of that nature.
Mr. Clif Evans: I know that in the past year, the new Municipal Act has at times made my job a little easier. I say that because people were always coming to me, since becoming Rural Development critic four or five years ago, with issues from within their own municipality and not undertaking to do what they thought should be done or how it was handled. Previously, I always referred constituents or anybody else that would call me throughout the province when dealing with a specific municipality of any in the province or jurisdiction to Mr. Dennis and to his staff to deal with.
I must say that I have not had as many in the past year, year and a half, as I did previously, people coming directly to me. That is why I wonder if the load of complaints and such has come down in the past year or so with the new act because, as I have said, I have made comment to those who have a complaint and who want to take it to the Department of Rural Development ask me what due process should be. The one thing I do say to them is that really--and I want the minister to correct me or staff to correct me if I am wrong--that under the new Municipal Act, the people in the community have a lot more of a say and the local elected officials have a lot more to be accountable to their local constituents. So I am just making comment in asking whether the department's complaints about their municipalities from people across the province have come down, or are they basically on an average the same?
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Mr. Derkach: As the member knows, that was a fairly significant piece of legislation that was passed with regard to The Municipal Act. It also called upon some specific types of action from the communities especially when it involved changing from, for example, the LGDs to municipal status, from the various categories of municipalities down to basically two, the urban and the rural. So there were significant changes in The Municipal Act. When you consider the impact of The Municipal Act and the fact that we now have a more advisory role rather than a hands-on or hand-holding role, I would think that based on the complexities of the initiatives that were undertaken in The Municipal Act, we did not have, relatively speaking, a large number of complaints or issues that were raised.
We have now a system of local government that is more open, more accessible, more accountable, and I think all of those things were very positive for the communities and the people that they represent. So based on all of those issues that were addressed in the new Municipal Act, I was almost amazed that there were so few challenges or complaints or disagreements with what was passed in the act.
Mr. Clif Evans: I appreciate the comments, and I am pleased to hear that there is not that amount. We are aware also that now the Ombudsman is in place dealing with issues--I do not know how many issues have gone to the Ombudsman, and what I am also asking is if an issue goes to the Ombudsman, does it go through the department directly to the Ombudsman and then to the department? How is it dealt with when there is an issue in place that requires the Ombudsman's input as far as an issue goes?
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the concerns or the questions or the issues go directly to the Ombudsman. They do not come through our office. We are informed about them from the Ombudsman's office in terms of what action is required on our part if, in fact, there is some action required. So that again is another element that was new in the new Municipal Act. So far it has been working very well, and we hope that part of it continues as well.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I hope that the minister also does not think that because the Ombudsman is now in place for rural development or in the rural areas, that it is still the responsibility of this department, The Municipal Act is still under this department, and whatever he says that it goes directly to the Ombudsman.
My question is: if it cannot be dealt with directly with the department on a complaint and it has to go to the Ombudsman because it is not being dealt with, is that what we are finding or are people saying, well, instead of going to the department we are going to write to the Ombudsman and have him do an investigation, where in fact they probably should be, No. 1, dealing with their own municipality on it firstly and foremost, and then dealing with the department heads and the support staff that the department has pertaining to The Municipal Act into the conduct, into the management of a municipality or jurisdiction, and the Ombudsman, I would feel, should be a last resort.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Ombudsman's office is just another opportunity or another vehicle or another way in which a citizen can gather or gain information that is required by him or her that he may not be able to get through the municipality, but certainly in all cases, the first step, if you like, is to go to the municipality and to try and get the information that you require from that source. Then they can go to the department, but failing that, failing being able to obtain information from either source, they now have the extra step, if you like, before they have to incur a large cost through courts and that sort of thing to go to the Ombudsman and have the Ombudsman on their behalf research and act and get the information from government. Now again, in some cases, the Ombudsman may not see fit or may think that this is not an area that the Ombudsman should be involved or should act, and he will advise the individuals of that at the time.
Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I think I would encourage, and I hope the minister would encourage, that short of having to go to the Ombudsman, and depending on the type of an issue that it is, in people's minds it may be a fairly big issue, a very substantial issue, especially when it comes to spending their tax-paying dollars within their jurisdiction or how they go about proposing a by-law or the type of by-laws that the council may want to put in or information.
I know that I have been called, and I wonder whether the minister's department has been called, on councils not providing the information that the people want to get. It is odd that should be occurring even now, knowing that municipalities know that short of in camera, it is basically an open-style government for your local municipality or jurisdiction. So I have had those types of calls, and I would think that the minister's department and the director would be the one that these people should be going to, either through me or directly, and dealing with that.
I would feel that the minister and the department still has, because The Municipal Act still has that authority, to deal directly with the municipalities in resolving a dispute or a problem between a local constituent and the municipality and his council. I wonder, and again I have not had the opportunity to discuss with the Ombudsman, and I will be doing that, is to try and find out the types of cases that he is getting and to see whether it is not--you do not have to go through the process for him to tell the constituents that are filing the letter of complaint that he cannot handle that or that is not within his jurisdiction. It is in the jurisdiction of the Department of Rural Development under The Municipal Act.
So I think it should be, if it is the case where it is a complaint and the municipality is not handling the situation with due process under The Municipal Act and under their mandate, then it should come to the department first and be dealt with and not go to the Ombudsman until the matter cannot be resolved between the department.
I mean, I cannot see a municipality saying to the Department of Rural Development and its director, if there is an outstanding issue, we do not have to deal with you. The people, if they have a problem, they can go to the Ombudsman. I am hoping that does not happen and I am sure it does not happen, but it should go here first and not to the Ombudsman and then back to the department.
Mr. Derkach: Basically it is up to that individual who is seeking information as to which route they want to go, but I would have to say that our department has always been and will continue to be open to requests that are made. Now, there are times when a request is made that we cannot give information out because of the confidential nature of an issue. It is at that time that an individual may choose, in fact, to go to the Ombudsman to try and extract that information from the department.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m. and time for private members' hour, committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.