Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
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Motion agreed to.
(Concurrent Sections)
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Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines had 20 minutes to complete his opening remarks. Does the minister wish to continue with his statement?
Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Chair, yes, I actually got stopped in midsentence, so I will begin with the sentence that I ended off with on April 16, 1998.
As a result of 17 workshops attended by 247 people in the flood-damaged area and fielding of some 500 technical inquiries, our housing scientists have come to be widely regarded as the premiere source of impartial information on proper cleanup and reconstruction techniques. The key part of our message was: take advantage of the need to rebuild to improve the energy efficiency of your home. The department is hosting a series of new home and energy saver workshops across the province. Attendance at these workshops has more than doubled over the last year. Workshop evaluations continue to be highly positive and complimentary.
The branch has also been involved in representing Manitoba negotiations relating to finalization of the energy chapter of the agreement on internal trade. In addition, as a result of the efforts of the branch, Manitoba has taken a lead role in raising reliability issues as the North American electrical industry continues to deregulate. We hosted a workshop attended by representatives of the electrical industry, provincial and federal jurisdictions, and represented the provinces in discussions with the U.S. Department of Energy.
This year, two new positions have been approved for the Energy section. They will restore our capability to develop policy options and provide input into Manitoba's response to the issue of climate change. Specific plans in this area are to update our inventory of greenhouse gas emissions and develop a comprehensive proposal to increase the use of ethanol in Manitoba. This latter objective was scheduled for last year but had to be delayed because of the efforts directed to flood recovery. We have initiated discussions with the government Fleet Vehicles Agency to identify candidates for alternatively fuelled vehicles. We hope to involve the federal government in this initiative in areas where there is a significant number of provincial and federal vehicles.
The department is providing advice and promotional assistance in the West Broadway renewal project. This exciting initiative involves renovating existing homes and constructing new energy-efficient homes in this area of Winnipeg. The program also offers vocational training and uses products and services of businesses in the area. The branch is providing expertise to the Sustainable Development Committee of Cabinet regarding the technical soundness of projects requesting funding assistance from the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. One of the most innovative projects respecting energy efficiency has been the eco-village project proposed at The Forks in Winnipeg. The Energy and Mines contribution to the project has been to provide information and technical review for both the proponents and Manitoba Environment, which are administering the project on behalf of the fund. The project is still under development with a final recommendation awaiting a marketability assessment.
Mr. Chair, this concludes my introductory remarks. I want to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to the employees of Energy and Mines for their hard work, conscientious work and commitment to providing quality services to our customers and Manitobans. To the official opposition critic, I look forward to a dialogue during this period of Estimates that will serve to further enlighten the people of Manitoba. Thank you.
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Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for St. James have an opening statement?
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. My comments will be brief and directed to some of the areas of inquiry that I will be making. As I have said over and over again, there is a recognition on the opposition side and by myself of the significance of mining in Manitoba and the importance of it as a resource to Manitobans in general, as a source of taxation for the government in particular, providing work, employment for many northerners and in mining communities.
Manitoba is endowed with a wide range of mineral resources, base metals, precious metals, industrial minerals, as well as aggregate materials. One of the areas that I am going to be exploring is what plans the government has to diversify its programs in terms of perhaps looking at a broader utilization or emphasis on the development of our resources. This is particularly acute, in my opinion, in the area of aggregate materials which is now being used obviously to maintain a road system which is being used, by far, a great deal more because of the changes to the rail policy, the Crow rate. The whole agricultural sector is now moving from one that was rail into using the road base. Many municipalities are in a desperate situation and in fact do not have materials to provide for the maintenance of those roads.
In a broader sense, the mining commodities are undergoing a downturn, which is a natural part of the cycle, and as we went through the good years and we saw prices up, I always caution the government to recognize that a lot of its success was related to international factors, and healthy mining returns means a healthy mining community, but I do believe that there is a responsibility for government to help get through the downturns, to help those mining communities at times where we see dramatic shutdowns.
Our government used various resources. We had created the Manitoba Mineral Resources that was unfortunately sold for approximately $30 million. This was a Crown corporation that actively pursued the development of mines and mineral resources, and it had success stories and was available to be an active partner. There is also the Mining Reserve Fund which was established many years ago before the New Democrats were in power--I believe it was a Tory administration that had first established it, but I could be wrong--whose purpose at that time was to help those communities that were facing potential disaster because of a mining closure. That fund is now being proposed to be used or has been used for the past year or so to fund the exploration program, a decision I strongly oppose. This is legislation that is coming before the House, and we will have an opportunity to debate that. The other portion of that bill includes the increasing of the Mining Reserve Fund from the level it has been for many, many years to I believe it is $20 million.
An Honourable Member: Ten.
Ms. Mihychuk: Ten million. That is a positive. That is long overdue, and I would probably argue that maybe we should look at a higher ceiling than 10 million but that is very important, and that it needs to be there. It needs to be used for a more immediate reserve fund than I would suggest the MEAP programs. Exploration is fundamental and required in Manitoba. I think that, unless you are extremely lucky and trip over a significant deposit, the development of a mineral deposit into something that is into production takes a considerable length of time.
I will actually be asking the ministry as to what the average sort of development period is, but if we looked at the Cross Lake deposit, for example, back in the '80s, we knew of its existence and were already mapping and defining it with considerable detail. Here we are at the end of the '90s and we still have a ways to go before that mine opens, so looking at 10 years down the road I do not think is being unrealistic for the amount of time that it takes to develop a mine. So to use the Mining Reserve Fund for MEAP, I would say is a long-term investment.
Many of our exploration programs do not end up discovering an economic mineral resource, do provide important information however and is important to our economy, but I would suggest that the Mining Reserve Fund be used for the workers and the communities that are being impacted by pending mining closure or the closure itself of a mine as it was originally designated.
In addition, we have expressed our disappointment with the government's budget, that this year there were a couple of items identified but overall the North was basically ignored in terms of the budget. The Highways budget, I understand, with some movement from one hand to the other is the same as last year, the concentration of that money being focused in the south. That is extremely unfortunate given the dire shape of the roads in the North.
As well, airports, for example, there was a recent announcement by this government to enhance the airports. Those airports, all southern in that announcement are being enhanced. No money for northern airport improvements. More and more studies are being conducted while there are not the supports to actually do the work. We know that the North also faces serious problems with supplying the professionals they need, particularly in the areas of health and education. You can read the newspapers on a regular basis as the North searches for teachers and other professionals, as well as doctors.
One of the programs that the government has been very quick to identify as providing support to young children is the early literacy program, something that is particularly needed in the North. I know that the minister has had the opportunity to visit, but there are many communities up north where early education is not available. There is not access to a whole lot of nursery programs and preschool programs. The library facilities are inadequate.
Mr. Newman: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just want to clarify and make sure that I am in the right Estimates. Is this Energy and Mines, or is it Highways and Transportation and Health and Education? The difficulty that I have, if I am in the wrong meeting and those are the topics under discussion, it would be more appropriate to have Minister Findlay here and Minister Mitchelson and Minister McIntosh and Minister Praznik. Maybe I could just have that clarification.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. James, on the same point of order.
Ms. Mihychuk: On the same point of order, I am shocked at the minister. He, of all people, should know that that type of infrastructure and supports is not only important to the people of the North but in particular to the mining associations and the mining communities, many of them who have directly approached us expressing infrastructure as a major criterion for investment in the North and a major factor of having a healthy mining community.
So, Mr. Chairman, this may seem somewhat peripheral, but I would like to suggest that it is absolutely essential and that investing in infrastructure in the North is a serious component of providing a strong mining community.
Mr. Newman: On the same point of order, I gather that I am--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would just like to advise all honourable members we are here to address the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines, and any reference beyond that I would have to rule that the discussion would be out of order. I would caution all members that they should try to stay relevant with regard to the Estimates that we are dealing with here, and I would make that caution and hope that I would get the co-operation of the committee with regard to this.
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Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. James, to continue with your remarks.
Ms. Mihychuk: Many of the supports and the infrastructure for the North is essential for a healthy mining community. It is unfortunate that the minister, who is also responsible for Northern Affairs--and in fact it is my understanding that the deputy minister is shared between Northern Affairs and Mining--clearly the government recognizes the interrelatedness between Northern Affairs and Mining.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would just caution the member that we are talking about Energy and Mines. We are not talking about Northern Affairs. Although there is some overlap with regard to the minister, we are talking about the Estimates of Energy and Mines. I would ask the member to direct her comments and questions to that department, please.
Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I am directing my comments to the mining industry and the North. I will continue on my comments, and I think that we will indeed be exploring the interrelationship between Northern Affairs and Mining, and that is an important factor, a policy decision by this government, and to separate them here in this committee seems out of sync with what actually the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the government have done in terms of combining the minister's responsibilities and the deputy minister's. So I will be going into that relationship in greater detail when we have an opportunity to talk about the new deputy minister as well.
Mr. Newman: Just on the same point of order, if I may offer a solution. You can certainly participate, the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), in the Northern Affairs Estimates and can put questions. The difficulty is the staff here are not, as part of their job description, equipped to deal with the kinds of questions that could arise out of the kinds of issues that you are raising. I have no dispute that infrastructure is important, a social and economic infrastructure is important to mining success and development, but it is simply not designed, the process and the people here are not prepared, by job description mandated to address the kinds of issues you are raising.
I do invite you to attend the Northern Affairs Estimates, which have not yet been held, to raise issues that do affect my other portfolio.
Mr. Chairperson: Just for the information of the committee, Northern Affairs will be coming up in the Estimates sequence in the Chamber after Rural Development and Education and Training.
The honourable member for St. James, to continue with your statement.
Ms. Mihychuk: On that point of order.
Mr. Chairperson: On the same point of order.
Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Chairman, I just want to assure you that I am fully familiar with the Estimates order and that I know what is relevant for this committee and what is not. In my opening statements, I had assumed--as has been the practice in the past--a certain latitude, as these are general comments in an opening statement which are, I believe, related. So my questions for staff will be relevant to Energy and Mines. I am quite aware of that.
Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Just for the benefit of the committee, I guess I will just make this comment that as far as the questioning, we will be dealing with the questions of Energy and Mines, and in terms of the relevance, the Chair will reserve the right as to whether or not there is relevance to this department. So I guess we could go on and on with this aspect. We will just leave it at that.
But I think that the member for St. James was in the process of making her statement and questioning the Chair, in terms of whether the decision to question, whether or not the member for St. James was relevant or not. I guess I am making an interpretation here. Maybe I am incorrect in doing that. But, if the member for St. James wishes to challenge the Chair on the decision that has been made, that is certainly the member's prerogative.
I am asking and have asked that the member for St. James continue with her statement to the committee so that we can get on with the Estimates.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, Mr. Chairman, it is not my desire to be interrupted; I just have a brief statement. I will continue with my comments and wish to assure the minister that we will be looking at a broad range of issues, including land tenure issues, which are particularly relevant right now in the North and across Canada; in addition, the various needs as identified by industry, including a comprehensive, geological information base, the MEAP program; the Systemhouse desktop program, and the support services that that is providing to the department; the government's policies in providing meaningful opportunities for northerners, in particular First Nations people, to gain experience through the department in workplace opportunities, through summer assistance opportunities, working with mining on a training employment program, if there is such a thing.
Looking at other jurisdictions, some of them look way ahead of Manitoba in terms of providing the training and job opportunities for First Nations people in the mining sector. So I will be asking the minister for our vision and our plans to move ahead with these initiatives.
Looking at the overall focus of the department in a number of sectors, we have seen, basically, the department has been reduced from what it was in the '80s, and we have seen less and less staff so that providing that type of geological base is apparently more difficult than it was in the past, and be looking at perhaps some vision as to how we can provide that information.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item, and I will proceed with the consideration of the next line.
We will now proceed to--just a minute--before we do that, we would invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.
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Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to introduce the staff whom I am very proud of and particularly the people who have been promoted to new and more responsible positions. To my immediate left, of course, is Oliver Boulette, the deputy minister; to his left, Garry Barnes, who is now the assistant deputy minister; Craig Halwachs is director of Administrative Services in an acting capacity at this time; Jim Crone, director of Marketing; Bob Dubreuil, director of Petroleum and Energy; Art Ball, director of Mines; and Christine Kaszycki, director of Geological Services in an acting capacity at this time.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to line 23.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 47 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass?
Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to welcome all the staff as well. It is a pleasure to meet the new people who have taken on those roles. I welcome back more seasoned staff and wish to ask for some background of our new Mines's deputy minister. Can the minister, for the record, indicate Mr. Boulette's mining experience in his background?
Mr. Newman: Mr. Boulette's background, prior to his appointment effective March 11, 1998, is a University of Manitoba graduate majoring in political studies; employed with the Department of Northern Affairs for the past 16 years, holding positions as co-ordinator, regional director and for the past 11 years as assistant deputy minister of the Local Government Development Division. He has a wealth of knowledge and experience with the First Nations in northern communities and is highly respected both within and outside the department for his leadership and management abilities. During a period when he was a student, he actually worked in mines, and his late father was an active miner for 26 years. So it would be accurate to say that he has grown up with mining around him in a known mining community as well.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate which community that was and what type of employment the deputy minister actually had?
Mr. Newman: The hometown I was referring to, the mining community, was Bissett, and the area that Mr. Boulette worked was at Red Lake, Ontario.
Ms. Mihychuk: What component of the deputy minister's time is spent on Energy and Mines?
Mr. Newman: My deputy advises that 50 percent of his time, roughly, is what is dedicated to Energy and Mines.
Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister indicate in his portfolio how much of his time is spent on Energy and Mines compared to Northern Affairs?
Mr. Newman: I would say, overall, approximately the same. It is dependent on circumstances, but overall that is the goal that I have: to devote roughly 50 percent to each. But I put into the 50 percent component for Energy and Mines my responsibilities as Minister responsible for Hydro.
Ms. Mihychuk: For clarification, is the minister saying that the time that he spends on Energy and Mines is 50 percent of his workday?
Mr. Newman: No, definitely not, because it varies. You have to do it over a broader period of time, but, as I indicated, Energy and Mines, including being Minister responsible for Hydro and Minister responsible for CEDF, I regard as something I use every effort to devote half of the time that I have as minister to that.
Ms. Mihychuk: As was clear in my opening statements, I understand the relationship between Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, and I do not wish to somehow suggest that there is not an important relationship. It would seem to me that there would be times, particularly dealing with the treaty land entitlement and northern flood, where the minister's time would naturally be focused on dealing with these important issues that impact on all three of his responsibilities, or four. What I am trying to, I guess, identify is that this is an extremely important area in its own right, that the mines sector is worth a billion dollars to Manitoba's economy, and look for the minister's commitment to the mining industry in terms of senior staff and the amount of time.
So I am somewhat surprised at the minister's comments that he is spending 50 percent of the time. I would seriously question that.
Mr. Newman: Well, you are certainly entitled to question it. It is an answer that would be very difficult to ascertain, given there is such a blend of the responsibilities, as you began to say in your opening remarks. There is an integration of the necessary infrastructures, and my experience so far has done nothing but confirm the wisdom of having a minister responsible for all of the areas I am responsible for, because you can then have a far more holistic approach and you overcome the impediments between departments while at the same time recognizing your responsibilities to each, which sometimes involve one to take a position very cognizant of the implications to the mandate which you uphold. To illustrate, by that I mean, whereas mining benefits greatly from low hydroelectric rates, on the other hand, Hydro, of course, has to be prudent on behalf of all stakeholders in Manitoba who have an interest in the profitability of Manitoba Hydro and its success in development.
So everything has to be balanced, and that is the challenge of the departments that I represent: having a sense and understanding, a knowledge of where the balances are and how you can advance things for the benefit of Manitobans through each of these mandates, each of these responsibilities.
Ms. Mihychuk: Of the minister's Executive Support, there are five people. I would assume those people are here at the Legislature and provide support to the minister.
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: Of those five individuals identified, how many have direct experience in the mining sector and would be knowledgeable of Manitoba's mining industry?
Mr. Newman: Of the named people that I introduced you to, people that have a direct knowledge of mining by education and through experience, Christine Kaszycki is chief geologist--[interjection]
Ms. Mihychuk: I believe the minister is talking about the departmental staff. I was referring to the people in his office.
Mr. Chairperson: It is not a point of order, just a clarification.
Mr. Newman: If you are talking about the staff positions, we are talking about the Executive Support Staff. On page 19 of the Estimates, the individuals there would be my special assistant responsible for Energy and Mines and Hydro matters, and that is Jodi Turner; my appointment secretary, Darlene Hoffman; correspondence secretary, Barb Robson; my deputy minister, Oliver Boulette; and his appointment secretary, Linda Gibson. The extent of mining experience of those individuals, in addition to myself, would be what we have described in relation to Deputy Minister Boulette.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Am I to understand that the individual with the greatest amount of mining experience is the deputy minister?
Mr. Newman: Of those five people, that is correct.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate, is the full salary of the deputy minister supported by Energy and Mines?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why the deputy minister, who shares his portfolio with Northern Affairs, his salary is coming out of Energy and Mines in total?
Mr. Newman: Because we have a split portfolio, with one minister responsible for both departments. That is what is regarded as an appropriate way to fund the deputy minister's position.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, clearly, for the record, I have to object on behalf of fairness, I guess. It would seem quite unreasonable to have the full salary come out of one department. In fact, Mr. Boulette will be working with a number of sectors, including Hydro, Energy and Mines, and Northern Affairs. I respect his ability, and I understand that he is highly respected in the north, and the community, but the mining sector also deserves expertise, and the department, I think, should, in fairness, cover half of the deputy minister's position, as I see that the department covers half of the minister's salary. Even then, I would probably argue that we are getting the short end of the stick in Energy and Mines, but so be it.
I mean, Energy and Mines is a fairly small department; well run. We have got numerous Hydro issues, for example, that are also on your table, and on your plate. So it almost seems reasonable that they would chip in something for that type of administrative support. But, clearly, for the record, I believe that Energy and Mines deserves its own component, with expertise in mining and energy at the senior administrative levels and that the salary support be relative to the amount of time that the senior staff can spend on the department.
Mr. Newman: I will review the appropriateness of this, what appears to be a bookkeeping issue. You have heard the effort that is put in and shared, and which pocket it comes out to. I will examine whether or not that is relevant for more than just bookkeeping purposes. With respect to the expertise question, I obviously have been supportive of a conscious decision to bring people into these positions with the qualities they have, with the belief that they will empower the people with the expertise within the appropriate departments, branches, divisions, to carry out their responsibilities with a maximum amount of freedom and capacity in an environment which is conducive to their being of maximum effectiveness.
The other thing that I have an expectation and have encouraged, if not mandated, is a very co-operative involvement with the experts outside government and in industry, in all the different component parts of industry and the academic community and the professional community with a view to maximizing expertise for the benefit of Manitobans. So I do not see there are any diminution. I see there is an enhancement in that kind of approach for the benefit of the mining community and Manitobans generally.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many staff members he has in total Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines as Executive Support here in the Legislature?
Mr. Newman: The Executive Support for Energy and Mines is a total of five.
Ms. Mihychuk: My question to the minister was: how many people work in his office as Minister responsible for Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines? How many support staff does he have under Executive Support? That would include the special assistants, the appointments secretaries, et cetera, who work for the minister.
Mr. Newman: Well, that will include all of the Executive Support staff for both Energy and Mines and Northern Affairs, because my staff and some of the deputy's staff all occupy one office, Room 314 in the Legislative Building, and the total is nine people.
Ms. Mihychuk: For clarification, there are nine individuals. That includes the deputy minister and various support staff. So there would be four full-time salaries that are paid for under Northern Affairs.
Mr. Newman: Yes, that is correct.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate of the support staff that he has whether their time spent is focused directly onto the department? Are the five individuals who are identified here under Energy and Mines focused totally on providing support to Energy and Mines?
Mr. Newman: The appointments secretary and the correspondence secretary and the deputy minister all have shared responsibilities for all of the responsibilities that I have as minister in the several portfolios and designated other responsibilities. Linda Gibson and Jodi Turner are in positions that are dedicated to Energy and Mines, and Jodi Turner in addition to Hydro and CEDF.
Ms. Mihychuk: So for clarification, there are three positions of the five that are shared under the two ministries, all responsibilities, including Hydro, that are paid for out of Energy and Mines.
Mr. Newman: That is correct.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the minister has indicated that he will review the staffing allocation and what would be appropriate. I would urge him to also look at the support staff that he has and suggest that, again, here we have the department, a fairly small department, providing the support for other departments and that perhaps there would be more room in Energy and Mines, that perhaps from a reallocation we could look to another geologist being hired, more support, that we provide some finances so that we could expand or extend the field season to provide that base information that the mining industry says is so needed and urge the minister to look in terms of fairness and support, that maybe some of this could be reallocated.
Mr. Newman: I think that would, with respect, diminish the holistic kind of approach. The last thing I want to be involved in, in my responsibilities in government, is silo thinking, and I believe that it is beneficial to everyone involved in mining and benefiting from mining to have the kinds of holistic approaches which I believe are characteristic of the ministries that I have responsibility for.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I seriously question the minister's statements and fairness because, obviously, this is a sector that is very significant to Manitoba's economy, very important to the government, very important to the workers and the aboriginal people in the North that are looking for leadership and diversification. It is an industry that deserves the province's attention, deserves senior support from the minister's office, and I would suggest that in terms of supporting the deputy minister's salary and the salaries of the appointment secretary, correspondence secretary, those things as well are coming out of one small department and providing supports to a variety of responsibilities that the minister has, which puts the onus on Energy and Mines.
It is clear that Energy and Mines also has needs and has seen reductions over the past 10 years, and there are certain areas of support that I have already identified. So I believe that I have nothing more to say about the minister's office. My position is on the record.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 23.1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $287,600--pass; 1.(b)(2) Other Expenditures $75,500.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of vacancies in the department? Would this be an appropriate place? It is sort of a general administrative question.
Mr. Newman: Nine.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate where those vacancies are in the department?
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Mr. Newman: In the Administrative Services area there are two. The manager of financial services and the incumbent in that position, as I have noted, is presently acting as director of financial and administrative services. Accounts clerk is another one. In Marketing, a manager of information resources. In Petroleum and Energy, engineering aide, Virden; petroleum engineer and, as was indicated earlier, two new program and policy analysts. In Geological Services, the chief geologist, sedimentary and industrial minerals and, as noted earlier, the incumbent is presently the acting branch director. Industrial minerals geologist is the ninth vacancy.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is it the intention of the minister to fill all these nine positions?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: Are there any secondments or individuals on workers compensation in the department?
Mr. Newman: There are two secondments out of the department, one to Service First and the other one to Better Methods.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us for the record what these two programs involve?
Mr. Newman: The first one, Service First, is working with the organization and development of a major conference, organizing a national conference which will be in Manitoba for the kinds of initiatives that are related to our Service First Initiative. The background of the individual who is in that function, I know, has been the primary person designated to lead our Mining and Minerals Convention over the past few years. The Better Methods secondment is in relation to the redesign of our accounting systems within the government.
Ms. Mihychuk: I did not really, I do not think, get an answer to the first question, what is Service First? I now understand that the individual who has been released is preparing or working on the national conference but the program does--what is the purpose of this program Service First?
Mr. Newman: I do not know whether my staff could give all of the details on that, but, certainly, that is an initiative--[interjection] The Service First program, which is really directed out of the Premier's Office through Deputy Minister Don Leitch involves regulatory reform, balanced budget, Manitoba measures and Better Methods. That is the best summary at this point that my staff could provide you with.
Ms. Mihychuk: The individual who has been seconded to help in the preparation of this conference will be gone from the department for how long?
Mr. Newman: Until December of 1999. I might say I just bumped into her today, and she keeps saying that she misses the department, but she really feels that she is learning lots.
Ms. Mihychuk: The other individual who has been seconded to Better Methods, I would assume is coming out of the administrative section? Where is the individual coming out of, and how long will they be absent from the department?
Mr. Newman: The position comes out of the Mines Branch. It is an accounting clerk position, and the secondment ends in June of 1999.
Ms. Mihychuk: The positions that these two individuals have left in the department leave holes, as you are well aware. The department hosted a very successful mining conference that I believe occurs in November. In the Mines department, the accounts clerk also has a fairly hefty responsibility. How is the department going to manage without those two individuals?
Mr. Newman: Both positions have been filled, and the funding of those positions is through the auspices of Service First. As I indicated from the anecdotal conversation I had at noon today just by chance, this is seen not only by the individuals but by the Service First Initiatives leaders and by our department as developmental opportunities. I might say that we think very highly of these people, and for them to not be present is going to be a long-term benefit to taxpayers and the department, and it gives other opportunities to others to work in those positions and reach another level of achievement. So we see this as a--I certainly see this as a win-win for all concerned.
Sometimes it is very healthy to open up these kinds of positions to challenge people that have been one step removed to being the leaders in those kinds of positions in the past. I would look forward to the Mining and Minerals Convention of November of 1998 to be as good or better than what we have had in the past, because the person in that position was a tremendous role model and leader by example.
Ms. Mihychuk: The two positions have now, I understand, been filled, their salaries being paid by the program Service First. Did the department have the availability to select their own candidates to fill these positions?
Mr. Newman: Yes, in both cases, it was an internal competition.
Ms. Mihychuk: Movement like this in the department does not occur very often. I am a strong proponent of affirmative action in providing opportunities for First Nations women to get experience, perhaps in positions where they did not. I understand that both of these positions were probably filled by women, so in this case I am not going to argue that we needed to fill with women, but perhaps it might be an opportunity to bring in some aboriginal people or other targets that we have as a department. Was there that opportunity in these two cases?
Mr. Newman: We feel very strongly an obligation as a government, and it has been certainly transmitted to my area of responsibility for Energy and Mines, to observe very conscientiously the need to give appropriate opportunities for employment to aboriginal people, females, disabled people, visible minorities. In both instances, a female replaced a convention co-ordinator while she seconded, and a disabled person replaced the accounting clerk.
Ms. Mihychuk: The line item that we are on includes Transportation, Communities, Supplies and Services, and Other Operating. I noticed in the Estimates for the department that in virtually every department there is a note indicating the department is in the process of implementing the government-wide desktop management system. Is that also taking effect here in the Legislature for the minister?
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Mr. Newman: The note that you are referring to is on page 21, and its content does not affect the expenditure items that we are talking about on page 19.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister, in a general sense, tell us or explain the allocations on page 21 and then further on pages 25, 27 and so on? There are a number of expenditures related to the desktop management strategy. What is the impact of this program on the Department of Energy and Mines? It goes all the way through.
Mr. Newman: In October of 1997, the Manitoba government signed a contract with SHL Systemhouse to provide services to all government departments related to desktop management. Desktop management encompasses all tasks associated with buying, installing, configuring, maintaining and using personal computer hardware and software. It also includes training support, selected software programs, telephone support and desk-side support. The support services are specifically designed to help employees resolve issues quickly, regardless of whether the problem is software or hardware related. The desktop management contract also provides for maintenance and support of all personal computer networks and associated printers.
The specifics of the impacts on the Department of Energy and Mines are the changeover of 150 units, broken down as follows: seven units by June 30, 1998, in Waskada and Virden; 14 units between July 1 and September 30, The Pas, Flin Flon, Thompson; and 129 units between January 1 and March 31, 1999, at the Ellice-Midland office. The total cost of that transition process is $63,887, broken down: the seven units, $15,077; the 14 units, $21,257; and, 129 units, $27, 553 is the impact. The anticipated savings, in terms of operational charges, namely the wide area network charges, the savings anticipated is $18,000, and the salary savings are estimated at $34,700.
Ms. Mihychuk: I am very interested in the overall contract and how it will serve the department. Technology is very important to Energy and Mines. There are a number of sectors that, of course, have to be computerized with the moving in terms of single-desk access, getting other land information on-line. This has been an ongoing project. The department historically has had a support staff that included specialized computer programmers and technical support. Are those individuals still with the department?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: How many computer support people does the department employ?
Mr. Newman: Three.
Ms. Mihychuk: Do those three individuals provide all the computer supports for the whole department?
Mr. Newman: The specialized needs of the department, design and implementation, are handled by those three people.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is there contract work or servicing being provided at the present time by Systemhouse?
Mr. Newman: Not programming.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is there troubleshooting and that type of support from Systemhouse?
Mr. Newman: Yes, with respect to desktop computers.
Ms. Mihychuk: For more clarification, in terms of the Systemhouse contract, it is my understanding that there are three departments that are the pilots this year for the Systemhouse desktop initiative; that is Labour, Culture and Government Services. Can I ask why this department is already moving into the Systemhouse contract? Is that a voluntary decision on the basis of the department?
Mr. Newman: The timing for the impact of the government-wide desktop management strategy in the Department of Energy and Mines is later than in many, maybe most, if not all, of the other departments, because this department is further advanced than other departments because of historic initiatives. As a result, it will not be till near the end, in March of 1999, that we would be brought fully onstream. The departments with greater needs that are further behind are being given priority.
Ms. Mihychuk: Why is the department contracting services from Systemhouse at this time?
Mr. Newman: It is a corporate decision of government.
Ms. Mihychuk: Are the three employees presently in the computer department expected to continue working after the Systemhouse desktop program is implemented in the department?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: In the past, before contracting out was given to Systemhouse, how many computer support people were there in the department?
Mr. Newman: There was one additional position.
Ms. Mihychuk: Has the department lost any employees to Systemhouse?
Mr. Newman: Systemhouse has gained an employee, that particular employee, as a result of that.
Ms. Mihychuk: What is the cost of the service contracting out that the department is undertaking for this year?
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Mr. Newman: I have given you the transition costs for this year of $63,887. The total cost of implementing the program, gross, again, in other words, a comparable figure to the $63,000 through 1999-2000 fiscal year as well, are $385,176, which includes the $63,887.
Ms. Mihychuk: The costs that the department is incurring in terms of troubleshooting and contracting services, I understand the minister to quote $63,000. Would that be accurate?
Mr. Newman: That is correct.
Ms. Mihychuk: With the addition of one employee, was the department able to provide all the troubleshooting and supports necessary in the department?
Mr. Newman: I am advised, no, that one individual could not do what Systemhouse will be providing.
Ms. Mihychuk: The four individuals who were in the computer department in the past, has that been the regular number of employees, let us say, during the last five years?
Mr. Newman: I am advised that the regular component going back five years or more until a year or two ago was three, and the fourth position was added within the last two years.
Ms. Mihychuk: That fourth position presumably provided extra supports to the department in terms of computers and getting the department on line and more modernized.
Mr. Newman: That is an accurate assessment.
Ms. Mihychuk: During that time, did the department have to contract out to get servicing for troubleshooting?
Mr. Newman: No.
Ms. Mihychuk: Did the individual, that one position--well, let me put it another way. What was the salary of that position, for that computer-support person?
Mr. Newman: Mr. Chairperson, $34,700, including benefits.
Ms. Mihychuk: So if I understand correctly, the department had in-house expertise for computer management. It takes awhile, I understand, for the computer programmers to become literate, as well, in terms of geological jargon, the needs of the department, and the technical aspect of the department as well as the computer knowledge which they already have.
That individual--we had four individuals in the department, and they were able to provide all the services. Now we have three people and we contract out for services. It seems to me that it was a cheaper deal in the past had we kept that individual for $34,000, let us round it up, $35,000. We were able to maintain and update and, as you say, be one of the most current departments in the government. Now we contract out, and for this year alone we are paying almost $64,000 for services to provide troubleshooting, and that is from Systemhouse. Would the minister agree with that assessment?
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Mr. Newman: I have been a beneficiary of a presentation by Systemhouse, so I have been able to see what they claim to offer, and the expectation is that the kind of, as I understand it, seven- day-a-week, 24-hour-a-day expert coverage which benefits from the high volume of experience with a uniform system will result in a higher and more available quality of service and also meet what could be a high volume of competing demands which one person was not and has not been able to service up to the standard which is envisaged under the new system.
Ms. Mihychuk: As I understand it, the service contract is for the provision of troubleshooting and other services for the systems that the department has in place presently. The future, I would expect, would include upgrades of the system, but for the present time it is the units that they already have. So is it not true that the department was able to serve itself by having a component of four individuals for almost $30,000 less annually?
Mr. Newman: I am advised from the people who work in the branch day in and day out that the demands under the current system were somewhat disruptive because you would want immediate attention, and any conscientious worker, and they all are, wants to have, you know, a quick response, advice, so that they can get productivity out of the system, so from time to time that involved going to the nearest geologist or someone else who had perhaps the troubleshooting kind of expertise to supplement what I said was an inadequate capacity of one individual to meet those needs. My staff here are advising that they see this as a superior solution to that experience.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is the department anticipating that the service contract or the cost of the service will increase next year?
Mr. David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Newman: I am advised that the cost per unit will remain constant, but because of the numbers, the aggregate cost will increase.
Ms. Mihychuk: Next year, I understand it, the department will not be fully under the new SHL program, or that you will be one of the last departments to enter it. So will there be one full year, another year, where the department will be accessing service contracts from Systemhouse but on an as-need basis rather than going into the whole program?
Mr. Newman: By April 1, 1999, we will be fully on the Systemhouse support for desktop.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is the department required to purchase the hardware? In an earlier question, the minister presented that there are 150 units that will be changing and that the amount added up to almost $60,000, I believe. Is it part of the contract that the department has to upgrade its hardware on its own?
Mr. Newman: Of the four years remaining in the Systemhouse contract, if we are satisfied with what is provided through that contract, that is included in our costs; but if we want to do more than that, we would have to fund that out of the department. After the four years, we do not know what the situation will be because we cannot look into a crystal ball and determine what will be in place after that.
Ms. Mihychuk: For continued clarification, the minister identified seven units to be replaced in 1998 for Waskada for a cost of, I believe, $15,000. Is this part of the Systemhouse desktop management program?
Mr. Newman: I have indicated, I think, Waskada and Virden for those seven units. That was the $15,077, which was part of the $63,887, and then the 14 units for The Pas, Flin Flon and Thompson, which was $21,257.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why seven units are costing the department $15,000, while at the Ellice office, 29 units are costing $27,000? Are these capital costs for replacing the machines? I am still not clear as to what the contract actually requires of the department.
Mr. Newman: Maybe to help both of us and the public understand this, a per-unit cost is roughly $2,660 for a year and that works out to $221.66 per month. The timing for the transition with respect to the units is the factor which results in the figures, so the 129 units represents one month between January 1 and March 31, 1999, but it is only one month of costs, and the 14 units represents six months, and the seven units represents 10 months.
Ms. Mihychuk: Will the department be receiving new hardware as part of this program?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Those units are going to be acquired through a special operating agency, I understand, called Gismo. Would that be accurate?
Mr. Newman: I do not know. I like the name though.
Ms. Mihychuk: I wish to thank the department and the minister because this is an important issue, I think, for Manitobans. We are moving into something that is of substantial cost to the government, we are looking at significant upgrades, so I wish to thank them for their patience as I try to figure out what the program is all about. I will be asking the government to provide the opposition with the opportunity for a briefing session through Systemhouse so that we do not torture every minister through this type of questioning, but it is important, it is significant. It is a major initiative that the government is undertaking, and if somehow the light turns off in my brain, I feel like I have an idea of what the program is, but I would ask the minister's indulgence, and perhaps there will be additional questions later on. I am just about done here.
I would like to just continue in terms of this first area we are in, Executive Support. Can the minister indicate to us whether he is expecting to do significant visits to mining companies, where he is going, how many companies he is planning to meet with in the upcoming year?
Mr. Newman: While I am waiting for my staff to provide an answer to that question, I just wanted to respond to it in a broader way to help you and the public understand how we have been going about interacting with mining companies.
I have very much an open-door policy to have, in effect, what I describe as my annual meetings with companies that contribute to the well-being of the province through taxes and jobs and otherwise, so those sorts of meetings will continue as normal. But what I have tried to do with the department is to accommodate people in the industry to the greatest extent possible, our belief being that they do the best work when they are concentrating on their mining businesses, and if we can efficiently utilize their time to the maximum, we take advantage of that. So, for example, the Mining and Minerals Convention, I dedicated last year all of my time, even lived in the hotel during the convention, because they in effect have come to Manitoba, they have come to Winnipeg and they want to access all the technical staff, they want to access me, they want to access the management people, and we virtually did that, except for sleep, around the clock. So that is a splendid opportunity.
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Another example of what we do is we will go to them, and we went to the Prospectors and Developers Association conference in Toronto and hosted a breakfast meeting where I was able to interact, but staff were there and interacted throughout that conference. Again, they are aware, the people are, in the industry. The other thing that we have done is we have sought out, particularly, new players in Manitoba or ones that we are trying to induce to come to Manitoba. Staff do that on a regular basis. I personally am involved whenever it is seen to be that extra edge, the competitive advantage, and did that on several, I guess, three different excursions during my first year as a minister.
The other thing is I interact with the industry collectively through the mining association on a regular, communicative basis. Again, that is an efficient way for the industry to interact with me because they have staff who are paid to do that on behalf of the players. They do that on an executive director's--the full-time staff people have an open line. I have no hesitation speaking to them and meeting with them whenever they think it is appropriate. Another regular meeting is, for example, whenever they meet with the Finance minister or they meet with any other ministry, I am included in those meetings.
In addition to that, now that my staff have--the short answer to the specific question as to what my involvement will be in this fiscal year, that has not been finalized yet, but there will be a plan for visits whereby we will have a direct interaction with the industry. Those will include the PDAC meeting in Toronto. Again, they are working on a Northwest Mining Association conference in Spokane and the Cordilleran conference in Vancouver. It is anticipated that I will be making one-on-one visits in Vancouver and Toronto again this year.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate where he travelled last year--he indicated three trips that he made as special visits--and indicate the costs of those three trips? I am referring specifically to the Transportation line item, which has allocated $30,000. So the minister took three trips last year. Can he indicate where and what was the cost of those three trips?
Mr. Newman: Going in reverse order of dates, I attended the Nunavut mining symposium in Cambridge Bay, Northwest Territories, March 27-29. I attended the Prospectors and Developers Association meeting in Toronto, and I attended the October 9, 1997, in Calgary, and met with four mining companies. Sorry, there is a fourth one that I met with; I went to Vancouver September 25, 26, and met with about a dozen mining companies.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister, for the record, indicate the allocation, the cost of those four trips as a budget item?
Mr. Newman: I will undertake to get that information for the next day we meet. My officials will have to put that together. I might say that to those conferences we had a team approach. I was with one of the customer service people, Gary Ostry, in Vancouver, and Gary Ostry in Calgary, and the Prospectors and Developers in Toronto. I went to that--hosted that breakfast meeting 7 a.m. Monday morning in Toronto and came back the same day to be in the Legislature, but staff were there throughout. Then the Nunavut mining symposium--I led a group of people, two people besides myself from the department, one person from Hydro, and another person from Department of Highways, on a multipurpose mission to Cambridge Bay in the Northwest Territories.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, clearly we do not have a scandal. The minister did not go to London, it appears, or anywhere exotic like Hawaii. The minister has been travelling in mining communities, and I say that with some fun because I know that the minister is quite dedicated, and did not expect any type of elaborate trips. But there is an allocation in the budget of $30,000. I wonder if the minister could indicate if we were over, under, or approximately at that level, whether this allocation was spent last year, and whether we anticipate that money will be spent this year.
Mr. Newman: I am advised that we are under budget, but we can certainly give you the particulars of those expenses. It looks like any exotic trips were enjoyed by hardworking, conscientious staff of Energy and Mines.
Ms. Mihychuk: They went to London.
Mr. Newman: I will be interested in finding out, too.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what is involved under the Supplies and Services and Other Operating lines in this budget allocation?
Mr. Newman: You would like a breakdown of all categories: Transportation, Communications, Supplies and Services, and Other?
Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps my question is actually unnecessary since I see at the back of our Estimates book an outlining of the expenditure areas, and I would take that as sufficient detail.
Mr. Newman: In response, on page 51 of the Estimates book is a definition of Supplies and Services and a definition of Other Operating. I can certainly provide you with a breakdown of the particular components to those two categories and others, Transportation, Communications, if you wish.
Ms. Mihychuk: While we are talking about travel of rich and famous people, I want to ask the minister if he had an opportunity to visit any of the department's geologists in their field locations last year.
Mr. Newman: I visited the offices--and I visited several mine sites, but we have a plan this year to visit all operating mines in the province. I am really looking forward to visiting people actually out in the field doing exploration work, drilling and otherwise. I think I could very easily become an enthusiast for the kind of pursuit that you followed before you came into your elected position. So I look forward to doing that and do consider it to be important that I do that. That is what I have done as a matter of practice at every opportunity to try and get a feel for the people that are in the front lines and everything that they do.
Ms. Mihychuk: The minister mentioned that he did have the opportunity to visit some mining sites in Manitoba. Would the minister provide us with his impressions of that experience, briefly?
Mr. Newman: I cannot remember whether I have told this story directly to you, but I have used it in a number of talks that I have given. My experience in visiting Inco and going almost a mile underground and seeing the magnitude of that long-time, extensive development left a lasting impression, which I share as being as large, in cubic metres, an ongoing construction site for more years than you will see anywhere else in the province any time; it also frequently illustrates the impact that Inco has had on the development socio and economically of a major and important city like Thompson. I made similar comments about Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and the impact on Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Leaf Rapids and vicinity and similarly a look at, in a more southern part of the province, what Tanco has done in its area. Identified with that, you get value added and you get your cesium formate plants.
I come away very respectful of what mining contributes to the province and to communities and also impressed that they take such great pride in environmental rehabilitation and great pride in being good corporate citizens and great pride in the quality of their workforce, also take pride in their resistance to government interference with things they do. They do not want handouts; they do not want us to prevent them from being effective business organizations; and they repeatedly will say that. So, overall, I have been very impressed with what the producing mines contribute to the province in all respects.
Ms. Mihychuk: I raise that because one of the things that I notice when I go to a mine site is also the colours of the people who work in those mine sites. I know that now is a particularly difficult time as we are looking at downsizing. Inco has just released a hundred or 200--120 people, I believe, or approximately, and so to bring on a change in the workers to reflect the northern population is difficult--I understand that. There are a lot of people who have lived and worked in Thompson for Inco for many, many years, but I think one of the things that Manitoba must improve is the partnership that the mining industry has with First Nations people in the North.
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So I would ask the minister for his vision towards an aboriginal employment policy or an aboriginal first program to deal with training and access into the mining community, which has been clearly needed for a very, very long time. So I look for the minister's comments in terms of dealing with what has really been a problem, the lack of representation of First Nations people in a very significant industry in the North.
Mr. Newman: You and I, in terms of desire to have the aboriginal community in its broadest sense benefit more from employment in the mining industry, may be similar, if not the same. Where we may disagree is how you go about it. My department, senior management staff, know through the deputy minister that this is a very high priority of mine. One area you start is in your own department and how many people you have employed of aboriginal origin. Progress is being made and it is part of our business plan. The progress, I am advised, is we are up from 2.5 percent last year to 5.8 percent aboriginal in the department this year.
We also recognize from the industry employment perspective with our experience with Partners for Careers, where the aboriginal council for Canadian business, in trying to promote the program amongst mining companies and in the north has been met with a response, and I have heard it directly from employers, that they must have properly trained people who are motivated and want to work in the industry. They do not consider them doing themselves or the employees any favours if they do not have successful employment relationships.
So, the big key is training, and maybe a key behind that is the motivation to be trained and behind that maybe the motivation to support mining and utilization of the natural environment in that kind of way. At this stage in our evolution in Manitoba of attitudes and thinking and feelings, there are a lot of mixed feelings, thoughts and attitudes. Things like are happening in Cross Lake right now are the kinds of things that send out a different antidevelopment kind of message.
So, what we are trying to do in reasoned and value-driven ways is to educate both industry and aboriginal people and others about the culture of the workplace on one hand and the culture and values of aboriginal people on the other, the reciprocal expectations, and create what could be called a code of practice, a code of conduct or what we have chosen to call an aboriginal mining accord.
We, as part of this year's budget, and I am sure you will get to it later, have invested some of the budget in the development of that strategy, and it will have to be driven by the community itself, both industry and aboriginal people, through a workshop kind of process. We believe that that will contribute to greater employment, greater entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial relationships between aboriginal people and the mining industry.
We also have had some useful experience with aboriginal people being involved--I have met them--in the prospectors program. I do not have the specifics of the program I was thinking of, but there was a work experience program from prospective geologists through the Keewatin Community College who interacted with our department here in Winnipeg and had some useful experience. Again, that is the kind of thing to give them that kind of support and encouragement.
The way that mining is dealt with by elders in a community, the way mining is dealt with by teachers in the schools, the way community members think about mining, all of those kinds of things are going to be major factors in changing the numbers of aboriginal people involved in mining.
I also am advised that the Mining Association of Manitoba anticipates hiring 10 students to be employed by member mining companies engaged in winter exploration programs this year. The mining companies will also write to their subcontractors to canvass for interest.
Another thing that I have just been exposed to, seeing how the exploration companies are now motivated by mutual self-interest, is they have, when they have exploration in lands near to or adjacent to or were considered to be traditional lands at reserves, made a point of hiring people from the reserves to do line cutting and a variety of other functions for them. They do that, as I say, out of a mutual interest kind of situation seen to be a win-win. It is part of the kind of thinking which we believe can lead to a useful aboriginal mining accord whereby the expectations of each will result in better understandings and appreciation for the importance of mining and for being involved in mining.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister familiar with the multiparty training plan that was adopted on March 12, 1996, in Saskatchewan, whereby there was a multisector committee established that included industry, the aboriginal community, the federal government and the province and levered among the parties $10.5 million for training of northern individuals to prepare northern people for new mine jobs in the North projected up to 1999? This included education people in the north in Saskatchewan, as well as industry people and government sectors. Their goals were to train northerners for, they estimated, between 500 and 700 person years of employment. So they looked at a direct approach, looked at a partnership.
I am wondering if the minister is aware of the program or anticipates this type of program for Manitoba.
Mr. Newman: I am aware of that program. The approach that has been taken to training under the new hand-off of training responsibilities to the province has left in the control of the federal government investment in aboriginal training.
There is also a new program which I have agreed to be a champion for, and that was the federal aboriginal human resources development business council. The department of Native Affairs is involved. Our department of Native Affairs Secretariat is involved on the working group made up of employers and driven by employers but championed by the federal and provincial ministers that have agreed to be part of it. I see that as the kind of vehicle to try and induce the mining companies to get more involved, also the Partners for Careers program.
So we have our made-in-Manitoba sort of approach which is addressing the kinds of needs that appear to be through that program you have described being addressed in Saskatchewan. We are just going about it in a different way, but it is useful when the federal government has committed to that kind of program in another jurisdiction.
We have Metis people and First Nations people, and Metis actually have quite a history in being involved in mining as well as First Nations people in particular mining communities.
All of these are useful experiences which we have an interest in examining success stories from, but we do have an approach emerging in Manitoba which is a multifaceted kind of approach.
Ms. Mihychuk: The minister, in response to one of my questions, mentioned that the mining industry, in fact, was not looking for a handout. I just want to indicate that the department has recently completed an inquiry, an evaluation of Manitoba's Mineral Exploration and Assistance Program in 1997, and 75 percent of industry respondents expressed that they wish to have the program continue. I think that in fact whether it was the sole reason for them to invest here, and I doubt it, industry is not turning their back on the program. We have seen the uptake actually increase and the program being fairly well received with the changes.
So just for the record, this government has provided incentives for exploration and industry has not exactly shunned those grant opportunities, and that has been a benefit to some and, in others, I think that still has to be evaluated. There is an indication in this survey that 63 percent of all respondents indicated they would have conducted exploration without financial assistance. So I agree with the minister. Exploration will continue with or without MEAP, but MEAP is available and the grants are available and we are getting take-up, so mining companies are looking at Manitoba and are taking up the MEAP option.
Mr. Newman: Just to comment on what you have observed, because you had indicated you supported enthusiastically the MEAP program as a very good program, I want to say that if I did not regard that as an investment in extraordinary circumstances which will not go on forever and has a limited lifetime, I would not support it as a handout or as a leg-up.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
This is nothing but an effort to induce exploration in particular areas that because of the impediments, the costs do not attract the degree of exploration that we would like but also to overcome a legacy of your predecessors in government, and I appreciate you were not there, but the New Democratic Party supported mining policies which to this day are regarded as negative good will for being involved in exploration and mining in this province, including the mineral exploration corporation, which you referred to, which, in the best interests of Manitobans, has been sold and no longer is an impediment to the positive environment for doing business.
No longer is there a threat of expropriation. No longer is there a threat to interfering with good business judgment. No longer is there a threat for a competitive environment for doing business on a world scale without political interference.
So there is a need, has been perceived to be a need, certainly by me and my colleagues, that we have to overcome that negative good will by these types of investments which, and for the moment I feel that we have overcome that, and it might be when we discover a, when a major mine emerges and gets all kinds of positive good will that we will not need MEAP anymore, but it continues to attract more and more junior exploration companies and others into Manitoba. We see it as bringing positive good will results.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why the department has lowered its mission in terms of mineral exploration from a goal of 50 percent to increase, and I am asking here--in the annual report of 1996-97, the role and mission was to increase mineral exploration in Manitoba by 50 percent. Now I see that the goal has been decreased to 40 percent, and yet we maintain MEAP and continue programs. Can the minister explain why we have seen this decrease?
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour. Committee rise.