Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Second reading, Public Bills, Bill 203. Are we proceeding? No, not at this time.
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk),
"WHEREAS bank profits of the major Canadian Banks in 1997 are at record levels of well over a billion dollars a year each; and
"WHEREAS the four major banks have closed or merged 12 branches in the inner city of Winnipeg in the past year; and
"WHEREAS the major banks have also recently closed rural banks in Lynn Lake, Baldur, Miniota and Whitemouth; and
"WHEREAS these banks have closed not because they were losing money, but because the banks wanted even greater immediate profits; and
"WHEREAS while the inflation rate has averaged less than 2% a year, Interac and bank service charges have increased by 25-35% in the last three years; and
"WHEREAS the bank with the highest service fees had a profit increase of over 40% in 1997; and
"WHEREAS roughly three quarters of a million Canadians do not have bank accounts and are forced to use firms charging fees to cash cheques; and
"WHEREAS in the United States the Community Re-investment Act forces banks to provide loan funding for small business and community development resulting in $497 million in loan commitments made in local housing projects and small business over a five year period in Chicago alone.
"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Federal Government to introduce a Community Re-Investment Act in Canada; and
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly urge the Federal Government to conduct an inquiry into bank profits and service fees."
Motion presented.
Mr. Hickes: I am pleased to bring forward this resolution on behalf of many Manitobans that live in the inner city and rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba that will have a negative impact on what we are seeing in the trend of major banks. We just heard recently about--more and more we are hearing of bank mergers, and it seems in the banking field, bigger is better, but when you look at the impact that the merging of banks will have, is that it will remove more banks from the inner city and rural and northern Manitoba and will decrease the services available to individuals.
Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Chair
I have a great concern and a lot of my constituents have a great concern because for years the elders and seniors in the Point Douglas area and around the inner city, where the banks first started up, were always asked--and when you see promotions by a bank, it is the whole issue of loyalty, and customers were always told you should be loyal to your bank.
Now I am asking where is the loyalty of the banks to their customers when I see banks that are being taken out of the inner city, removed and taken out of communities such as Lynn Lake, Baldur, Miniota, and Whitemouth. Those banks were in place for years and years and years, and now because of the big-is-better philosophy of the banks, they are removing these banking services away from their customers, and I do not think we all realize the real impact that it is having and the hardship it is having on the residents of those communities.
I only have to look at the example of the bank pulling out of Lynn Lake. Lynn Lake is 103 kilometres away from Leaf Rapids. The price of gasoline is over 60 cents per litre in those communities. Also, what you have is you have about a thousand people living in Lynn Lake who have always used those banking services and have been very loyal to their banks throughout the years. When you talk to the bank and ask them why are you pulling the banking services out, is it because the bank is not generating revenues, they will not confirm that because they know they are making some profit, but now the profit is turning into greed.
When you look at the situation in Lynn Lake, it is not one of the nicest stretches of roads anywhere in Manitoba, and an individual has to drive 103 kilometres, 60 cents a gallon, so on top of the service charges that the banks impose on all its customers--and they are increasing daily. Now you pay for any little service that you do through the banks. The service fees are going up and up and up, and I feel that the services are decreasing. So when you look at that situation, it is not only the residents of Lynn Lake being penalized by escalating and more service charges by the banks but also the undue costs of having to drive back and forth from Lynn Lake to Leaf Rapids at 103 kilometres every trip.
So you only have to look at that, and then you also look at the profits of the banks. Now you look at banks that are making billions and billions of dollars of profit, where before they were happy and very comfortable where they were making in the millions. Now it has gotten so where it is not service to the customers anymore or even what I talked about earlier of the loyalty that the bank was always asking of their customers--be loyal to our bank. Well, now you would think that the banks would be loyal to their customers when they are reaping these billions and billions in profits, where maybe some of the banks that are operating in smaller communities, even if they are generating smaller revenues, the services should still be there for the loyal customers who have been there for years, because they are reaping more and more profits from bigger centres and bigger banks.
Where is the justification of that? I do not understand it because when you look at other retail outlets and stuff like that, there are some stores that make bigger profits than others, but a lot of times they will maintain a store in--the only store in a remote community, for instance, maybe would make a small profit, but the larger retail stores would make huge profits, so the company still made a good profit for their services, and they were still able to deliver the services for the individuals who needed it in those communities. But right now what we are seeing is it seems like if it does not make a billion dollars, get it out of there. The heck with the people; like, they can find services elsewhere.
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For an example, if you look at our whole grain elevators that we had across Canada, what has happened there? We have lost a lot of those grain elevators. They employed local residents, and they were able to ship the grain shorter distances. We have lost those, and now I think that we have to stand up as a legislative body and say enough is enough. That is why in this resolution I am asking the Assembly to urge the federal government to conduct an inquiry into bank profits and service fees because a lot of individuals are finding it harder and harder.
If you look at even my own constituency of Point Douglas, a lot of the elders and the seniors that I have spoken to have raised the attention to me about the banks moving out. It is harder and harder for the individuals to do their banking because some of the elderly and some of our seniors do not drive, and for a lot of them it is hard for them to go a further distance because some of them are using canes and walkers, yet we are seeing the services that these seniors and elders had been loyal to, their concerns just totally ignored and moved right out of their own communities.
If you look at the banks, how can they say that we have to pull these services out? I guess because you would assume it is because they are not making profits, but how can you justify that when you see the chairman of the Royal Bank, Bank of Montreal, they each received $10 million for their efforts to bring this huge merger together? Also, the other negative impact that it will have is individuals that have lived in rural and northern communities, a lot of these small communities when you remove the banking services, you are not only removing the opportunity for individuals to do their banking, but you are also taking away employment. Opportunities sometimes in those communities are very far between.
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair
So when you see a bank closing, say in a community of Lynn Lake or Baldur or Miniota or Whitemouth, you just look at how many jobs have been removed from those communities and the negative economic impact it will have in those small communities because everything has a ripple effect. If you removed, say, five jobs out of Winnipeg, it is a very small number, but remove five permanent positions out of a lot of those communities, and it has a big impact on those communities. Then when you look at the additional cost to go do your banking in another community where you are spending more on your gasoline and wear and tear on your vehicles and stuff, you are literally grabbing money right from the economic development of those communities and shifting it where? Where are you shifting it, because none of it will be put back into those communities. It will be shipped to Montreal, Toronto, wherever the headquarters are.
We also have to look at the whole area of banking in Canada. In America, they have what they call a community reinvestment act. What that means is before a banking service could go into a country or into a community, they have to make sure that they guarantee dollars for housing developments, small businesses, and they have to guarantee those loans. For instance, Bank of Montreal wanted to buy the Harris Bank in Chicago. American regulators delayed approval until it met the obligations under the American Community Reinvestment Act to provide loan funding for small businesses, community development in a Chicago area.
Why do we not have some of that here in Canada? If it is a good idea, why do we not try and see how we could urge the federal government to adopt something that will benefit all our communities and benefit our small businesses and benefit the housing stocks, to make sure that we have loan commitments from other banks.
We see where all these mergers of banks is getting bigger and bigger, and what we will see, I am sure, in the future is we will see more and more foreign banks come into Canada. We will see foreign banks that will want to establish banking branches and services in Manitoba and other parts of Canada. So why do we not urge, and raise the awareness with, the federal government to see if it is possible where we could have some form of a guarantee that these banks would ensure that wherever they move into, if it is Winnipeg, they will guarantee loans for small businesses and for housing starts and stuff like that? Now, there is nothing wrong with trying to have new ideas and new approaches to our banking services.
When we talk about banks leaving inner city--as I said, I have talked to some of the seniors and some of the elders and they do not understand how a bank that has functioned for years and years and years could all of a sudden just walk out and leave them high and dry. If that is going to be the case, when we urge the federal government and they refuse to do anything about it, then I think that we as a Legislative Assembly and as concerned Manitobans are going to have to start seriously looking at implementing and supporting and establishing credit unions in some of those small communities because individuals have to have a banking source in their own communities.
As you all know, the individuals that come from smaller, or anyone in this Chamber that has lived in smaller rural or northern communities, you know how the banks operate. They get to know you on a personal basis. They get to know your family. They know everything about you, and it is more of a personal thing. When you are going in to talk about a loan or talk to some employee of the bank or the bank manager, you are already on a name basis with those individuals, so they know that, if you need assistance to expand your farm, or even if you want to buy a car or furniture, they already know a lot about your history and your family's history. I think that is what we are going to be losing if we allow all these banks to abandon our inner cities and our rural communities and our northern communities without us as a Legislative Assembly standing up and urging the federal government to do something about it; and, if we cannot, let us ensure that we do all we can to ensure that credit unions are established in those communities.
You look at Steinbach Credit Union. It is one of the most thriving institutions in Manitoba. It is one of the most thriving, you know, and what happens with credit unions is a lot of the money will be reinvested back into the community because they know the individuals and they are more willing to give loans out to the residents of those communities. What is wrong with that? There is nothing with that. So I hope that the government will look at supporting this resolution because it is urging the federal government to take a serious look, urging the federal government, support this resolution, and then hope the minister will look at helping to establish credit unions in some of the communities that we know that we cannot get the banks back into. But let us do something for those residents and let us do something for our credit unions in Manitoba to be established in those communities in order to help the residents and, hopefully, to help small businesses prosper.
I hope the members will support this resolution because it is only urging the federal government. I know that if we support this resolution and if we make our voices heard in Ottawa, I hope that we could make a difference, but it shows that we all in this Chamber will stand up for small, rural, inner-city, and northern communities. So I urge all of you to support this resolution and think twice about this and see if it is applicable to Manitoba, which I feel very strongly it is.
With those few words, I hope that I can have your support for this for the sake of all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
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Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not want to castigate the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), because, in fact, I agree with many of the points that he did bring forward today.
One of the things that he was bringing forward and lamenting is change. Too often we hear in this Chamber that members opposite are the party that is looking backwards. In fact, there has been change occurring in our communities. It has been occurring in every facet of our lives, and it is also occurring in the banking industry. We look around our community and we see a lot of Roman, Greek buildings that had imposing facades. You walk in and the front hall is full of marble and gilt, brass. This is a picture of a bygone era, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is the mentality that banks presented to the populace back in the '20s, back in the '30s, and that is over.
The services that are really relevant, the services that are appropriate today are being given through banking machines, through the Internet, through telephone banking. The honourable colleague opposite laments and rails about unseemly profits of the multinational corporations or the banking corporations. Too often we hear this as a rhetorical lament coming from the benches opposite. It is perhaps jealousy or a chip on the shoulder; I would not know. I would not comment on the personal motivations of the member opposite, but only on a generic, broad base. But, in fact, where I can make common cause with the member opposite is on the promotion of credit unions.
The member opposite states or mentioned that the banks have withdrawn from Baldur, which is a small centre in Manitoba, and the Cypress River Credit Union--
An Honourable Member: No, no, no, do not say too small.
Mr. Radcliffe: No, no, I am not saying too small. I am saying something smaller than Winnipeg, but, in fact, the Cypress River Credit Union has moved into Baldur. In Miniota we have seen the Hamiota Credit Union move in. In Whitemouth, we have the South Interlake Credit Union move in, and in Binscarth--I do not think the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) mentioned Binscarth, he overlooked Binscarth--[interjection] Ah, well, but the people from Binscarth probably do not want to be overlooked and, in fact, I am proud to stand up in this Chamber and tell honourable colleagues opposite and through them, the people of Manitoba, that the Vanguard Credit Union has moved into Binscarth.
Now, I have the distinctive pleasure to be the minister responsible for the credit unions and the credit unions have a very distinctive philosophy. I would take issue with my honourable colleague when he says that we should be promoting credit unions as government, because they are so generous and they give money away. I think these are not the right values. I do not think these are the right values, and, if you ask the credit union, the Credit Union Central, the credit union guarantee, I think that they would be reluctant to accede to those suggestions hazarded by the member opposite.
In fact, I have heard first-hand from our credit union structure here in Manitoba that they are business-minded individuals. They, too, have a bottom line. They look at a community and they see if there is support--[interjection] Ah, well, you said--I believe the words, and I do put my own interpretation on it, but he said that they were more generous to local people. That was the issue, and I think that, in fact, is the wrong emphasis. In fact, the banks when they were operating in small centres, in big centres, they looked upon business opportunities to see if they were a reasonable opportunity. They were profit based.
I would urge the member opposite to look to the fact that the credit unions have the same values, and they have the same standards. They have high standards. They look to repayment of loans, they look to supporting the local community, and they look to the profit incentive.
Now, I think that what my honourable colleague opposite has confused is the mega profits which are posted by the banks nowadays, and I am no apologist for our banking system, although the Canadian nation does have one of the best banking systems in the world and we are the envy of the western world with our central banking system and the relationships with our individual banks.
Too often, I think, members on the opposite bank are quick to laud the perceived attributes of commercial enterprise south of the line, and they want to introduce the values and the standards and the issues that they see that are prevalent and bright and shiny in America. They think that they should work here, but Canada is a different nation, with different values and a different set of community standards. The credit union is something that has prospered in Manitoba, so there I would agree with my honourable colleague from Point Douglas.
The honourable colleague from Point Douglas did ask us to reflect on this resolution and think twice about it. I, too, would urge all members in this Assembly to think twice about this motion and this resolution because I think, at this point in time, it is precipitous and it is ill founded.
The reason I say that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is, first of all, looking at some of the preamble that my honourable colleague has placed in this motion, and he says--I would look to one preamble in particular--WHEREAS banks have closed not because they were losing money, but because the banks wanted even greater immediate profits. I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, that that is shortsighted and based out of ignorance. The major profits that are coming from our banking system today have been funded out of the stock brokerage activities, out of all of the collateral activities which the federal banks have engaged in. I think that is also an appropriate point that would cause reflection in this Chamber, that the control and regulation of banking is and truly a federal issue.
The issue of retail banking has not become a major profit centre, contrary to what my honourable colleague opposite is alluding, and I would invite him, I would challenge him to show me where retail banking has been the source of the huge profits that the mainline banks have been reporting in the last number of years, because I would take cause with him on that, I would challenge that.
The other reason why I would say that this motion and this resolution is precipitous at this point in time is that the federal government has a working committee at work right now under the Task Force on the Future of Canadian Financial Services. This is a task force which the Honourable Mr. Rock has alluded to when he has been challenged as well. This task force has been working for the past year, and it will be presenting to the federal government in September of 1998. This task force will be looking at all aspects of the federal banking system in Canada. They will be looking at the issue of employment. They will be looking at staffing. They will be looking at the issue of mergers, and they will be making recommendations to the Parliament of Canada. So I think that it is premature and perhaps even a little bit presumptuous for this Chamber and this Assembly, at this point in time, to become involved before we know what the facts are, what the facts are going to be and what the report is going to be.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would also bring to my honourable colleague's attention opposite that with the issue of Lynn Lake, I am advised that South Interlake Credit Union did go in and did perform a study on what sort of support they would receive from the citizens in Lynn Lake. The results of that study was that the citizens of Lynn Lake were not prepared, and I repeat this, they were not prepared to support the South Interlake Credit Union operating in Lynn Lake to the level and extent that the credit union required in order to flourish and function and prosper in Lynn Lake.
So I challenge the member opposite and through him the citizens, the good citizens of Lynn Lake, that if they want hands-on community banking service, they have to step forward and declare their support for the credit union system and for, more particularly, the South Interlake Credit Union, and, in fact, on this issue they may be prepared to readdress it, and I would invite them so to do.
Now, the other issue, the other side of the resolution which my honourable colleague has presented to this House, is that we urge the federal government to introduce a community reinvestment act in Canada. Well, again, I would say that this is an American transplant and is something which they are looking on perhaps frivolously, perhaps without a lot of thought, and without a realization of what this government is doing for the community to channel funds back into our communities.
To illustrate this point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to tell this Chamber and my colleague opposite that the Small Business and Community Support Branch of Rural Development--and Rural Development does wonderful things for our community. In 1996, this committee was created to work in partnership with community leaders and small-business people to assist grassroots business through the provision of marketing and information services, and this is just one small step.
Another thing is that this government has put its money where its mouth is, and we have stepped to the plate and transferred 10 percent of the share of VLT revenues to our municipalities. I can see the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) opposite sort of grimace at this, and, in fact, perhaps she does not like to know where her money comes from in her community, but, in fact, you have got to be realistic. You have got to be honest and address these issues and know that, in fact, communities and municipalities are being supported through the profits from VLTs. Twenty-five percent of the VLT revenue goes to urban and rural economic development initiatives in our province. This is one of the most generous programs across Canada, and it is just another example of how this government, this provincial government, is taking the funds that are at hand and is putting them back into the community for real creative work, creative economic development.
The REDI program is another issue where $1.8 million this year is the program allocation for development in our municipalities. I could go on and on, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but the Urban Economic Development Initiatives provide funding for the city of Winnipeg, and the allocation there was $16.75 million in the recent budget.
New generation co-operatives--and I could wax eloquent on that because I am about to introduce a piece of legislation in this House about new generation co-operatives, but it would be premature, of course, until I have tabled the legislation, but I will be more than happy to share with members opposite the attributes of the new generation co-operatives and invite them, in fact, to meet with my bureaucrats and research people to explain to them what we are proposing in the way of changes there. But this, too, will be another initiative by this government whereby we are putting money back into the communities, so therefore we do not need to be repressive. We do not need to be regulatory. We have been creative, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so we do not need to be repressive of our banks. We do not need to tell them that we must curtail their activity when, in fact, we have been far more creative.
So, in summary, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would say I join cause in encouraging the credit unions as the member opposite, but this resolution is shortsighted, it is ill timed, and it does not consider the reality and the real focus of what the problem is to date. We are in a period of flex and change, and it is this government, the Filmon government, that has seized the opportunity to change with the times, to promote change to the advantage of Manitobans.
With these few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity of putting them on the record.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is with interest that I listened to the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe), who just talked about being in an influx of change and his government welcoming the change but, you know, change is not always good when the change results in a negative impact on the people of Manitoba.
I am surprised that the member who just spoke did not address some of the other issues in the resolution, that is, he focused on the bank profits and talked about perhaps our being jealous or having a chip on our shoulder about the banks having a great profit. Well, that in fact is quite a foolish comment, to think that we are somehow jealous of a bank making money. What we are concerned about is the impact of the changes that we are seeing in the bank industry having on Manitobans.
I want to share with the member also a comment that I heard about, that being a comment that was made in the Netherlands when Alexa McDonough, Leader of the New Democratic Party, was in the Netherlands meeting with people there. What she found was that in the Netherlands a bank president on average earns about four times the average wage of their employee. In the other countries, they do not accept this idea that banks can make whatever profit that they want and millions of dollars going to bank presidents. In fact, they were quite surprised that this did not lead to uprisings, that people would not be really upset about this idea that bankers should be making such a large profit in comparison to the employees in their bank.
But this member who just spoke is quite supportive of banks making very outrageous profits in the last couple of years. In fact, he did not address the issue that bank service charges to average Manitobans have increased from 25 to 35 percent over the last three years. The banks have the highest service fees, and the member talks about the tellers at the bank making all this money. Well, I think that the member should go visit a few banks and talk to a few of those bank tellers who in fact are working for very low wages in comparison to what the bank presidents are making.
He talks about change and the free enterprise, but I think he also has to stand up for Manitobans, who are the ones who are bearing the brunt of the changes in banking practices in this province.
I have to say that I do too want to give a tremendous amount of credit to the credit union system, who are working very well, and there will be opportunities for them in rural Manitoba to provide services. I hope that they will take up that opportunity and continue to provide services because, in many communities, there will not be bank services. In fact, in my constituency there are many areas that have no bank services and people have to drive 40, no, I would say 60-70 miles for bank services.
I have talked to over the years various banks to see if they would be interested, and I have also talked to credit unions to look into the possibility of at least looking at taking more services to the people, for example, in the area of Duck Bay and Camperville and Pine Creek, where there is a fairly large population, but it is a low-income population, and it would be very nice if they could have some of the services there. That is not happening.
As banks close, it is a loss of service. Just as when we lose an elevator in a small community, business leaves that community, and it has a negative effect, the closure of a bank in a small community has a negative effect. When people are not banking in one area, they go to another town and business is lost. There is a big negative impact for people in urban centres, as my colleague the member for Point Douglas has pointed out, but certainly it is a greater impact on rural communities when they lose a service.
This government talks about being supportive of rural communities. Well, I think that they should stand up on this particular issue and try to encourage the banks to maintain some of their services. Granted, these banks may not be the biggest profit making for the banks, but in the whole scheme of things they can also provide service. Somewhere in there it cannot be all based on bottom line, that we have to be making huge amounts of profit, but there has to be providing service for people.
Again, when I listen to the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe), his concept seems to be that it has all to be profit driven, that we are in a mode of change and no matter what price we have to pay, as long as those senior executives are making their million dollars, it does not matter what kind of services we are providing to people. When I look at what happens in other countries, governments are prepared to take a much bigger leadership role. What we are asking in this resolution is for the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to urge the federal government to conduct an inquiry into bank profits and service fees.
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That is a fair question to ask. Are service fees too high? Are people who use the banking system being charged too much for the service? That is not too difficult a thing to ask for an inquiry into, and I would hope that the members of the Conservative caucus would encourage that to happen.
The other issue--[interjection] The member says it is happening right now. Well, we will see the results. It would not hurt to pass the resolution to show your support for inquiries. The other issue, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the idea of a community reinvestment act in Canada. Again, it is a suggestion; it is an idea that works in another country. We are looking for whether we could have a way to have more small business loans.
The member talked about all the programs that are available for small business under this government. Well, I hope it is not a surprise to the member, but there are many people in rural Manitoba who want to start up small businesses who have not been able to access loans, who have not been able to get money. That is what we are suggesting here; it is a way where there might be loans available for small businesses and community development. There can be government programs, but there also can be loans through banks to help small businesses get started.
The losses of service to the community of Lynn Lake and others have put a tremendous amount of burden on those people in those communities. Now the member says that there is a credit union that is looking at providing services in Lynn Lake, and I hope that that will be successful because residents have to drive 100 kilometres to get banking service in an area where there are high fuel costs, very poor roads. The roads out of Lynn Lake are one of the marks of this government. They have not fulfilled their responsibility in maintaining roads in northern Manitoba. They are atrocious roads; they are in very poor condition. So we have people who have to drive 100 kilometres, pay high prices for their gas, and drive over terrible roads in order to get services.
So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that this is a good resolution. It is one that has been thought out, and I think that there would be opportunities for this government to show support to Manitobans that they do care about what kind of banking services they have. They are concerned about the bank service charges that have increased from 25 percent to 35 percent, and I would hope that they would be concerned about the roughly three-quarters of a million Canadians who do not have bank accounts and are forced to use firms charging fees to cash cheques.
There are a lot of things in this resolution. The fact that the banks are making a tremendous profit is an area of concern. The fact that banks are continuing to merge, and, as they merge, they reduce the amount of services that are provided and the opportunities to get banking services. If we continue on this path of mergers without any cautions put forward by the government or the government's slowing them down, who knows, we could end up with very few banks over the next period of time, and certainly that would not be in the best interest of Manitobans.
So I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this is a good resolution, one that flags the concerns that people have with the banking system right now. It also flags the concern that as banks merge we lose jobs. In fact, when the Bank of Montreal and Royal Bank merge, there could be as many as 500 jobs lost. Now this government should be concerned. We do not know how many job losses that will be in Manitoba, but we know that we have had an out-migration of over 6,000 people out of this province in the last year. That is not good for Manitobans, and we have to encourage economic growth, encourage people to want to come back to Manitoba. I want to see people come back to rural Manitoba, but, every time we have a service reduced in rural Manitoba, that community becomes less attractive.
I share with you a comment made by some young students, and these young students, who will be graduating this year, told me that they are going out of the province to study, and then they do not plan to come back to Manitoba to live and work. Why do they not plan to come back to Manitoba to live and work? Because they think that there is no hope in Manitoba, in particular in rural communities.
Now we heard this when we were in southern Manitoba, in Virden. We heard it when we were in Swan River, and we heard it in other communities. Young people do not have very much hope, and they said: we want to come back to our rural communities, but there is not enough hope there. We do not think we can get jobs. Well, some of the jobs that they could get are in the health care field or in education, but there are also banking jobs that people could get. But, as services are reduced, the rural community and the northern communities and the inner city become less and less attractive to people.
So what we have to do is start building back the confidence in people that Manitoba is a good place to live and we do have the services and there are job opportunities. This is one of the things that the government could be talking about and saying that they are prepared to address issues like high bank service charges and high Interac fees that people have to pay. In a time when inflation rates are less than 2 percent a year, these high profits do cause people concern and do bring instability to communities. Loss of banks brings instability.
So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that this is a good resolution. I wish that the government would be supporting it; obviously, they are not. But I want to say as well that I think that what is happening in this country with banking services will see our credit union movement grow. I commend the credit unions for having the support and commitment that they have to small communities. I only wish that this government had had some support and commitment to its residents to stand up on some of these issues.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have listened to a number of the comments so far on this resolution. Having some understanding of it also, I would say that perhaps it is just a little premature or perhaps the discussion that will carry on today might not deal with this resolution in totality. Perhaps later on it might be, with everybody's agreement, that it be brought back some time in the future, perhaps after the federal task force finishes with the study that they are doing.
Many of the things that the member has mentioned, many people can relate to, and I take you back quite a number of years. Some 30 years ago my wife, Milly, and I lived in Winnipeg, and at that time we dealt, of course, with a bank in Winnipeg. Be it one or two years later, we moved to Ste. Anne, and be it that I was working in Winnipeg and I knew the people in the bank, it was kind of nice, so I continued to do my banking there. Now, during that time, I had a full-time job, but I also did things on the side. For example, I was a mechanic in another life, if you will, and I fixed vehicles, I fixed cars, and I sold them. I also bought houses and fixed them, painted them, fixed many different things in them, and sold them also.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want you to know and anybody else that any of the vehicles that I did sell had indeed been put through a safety, although it was not known then as a safety, before it was put on the road. Also, I think anybody selling a home, I guess you consider it ethics, you consider it being honest, open with people, would not sell a house that was not fixed properly and ready for the people to occupy, so I did that too.
But the point that I am getting at here is the services offered at that bank. I could pick up the phone and I could call the bank manager and I could say: I need, let us just take a number, $5,000, and the bank manager would say: go ahead, Ben, write the cheque, and I would. Now, that is known as a demand loan. Now, when I had time or I was going past the bank, I would pop in and I would sign this demand loan paper. Sometimes, though, I did not, and when it was paid off, which I did most of the time pay it off very quickly, they would just send me the paper in the mail and it was cleared off.
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After the changing of a number of bank managers, I found one bank manger, when I phoned, he said: I am sorry, Mr. Sveinson, we do not do that anymore. You cannot do that.
Now, that kind of hurt my feelings just a little bit, and be it that I was living out in Ste. Anne area, Steinbach area too, I thought, well, perhaps it is time that I looked around out there for a bank or a banking institution that I could deal with there, that were a little bit nicer to me, because my feelings were a little bit hurt.
So, I took what money I did have in the bank to the Steinbach Credit Union. The Steinbach Credit Union, before I put my money in there, told me that indeed I could operate the same way as I was operating prior to the new bank manager telling me I could not phone him anymore and you had the money. The credit union told me, yes, Mr. Sveinson, you can. The reason why I changed from the bank to the credit union was the service offered to me.
Indeed, I was happy and I did test that credit union with a very large amount of money at one time. I was making a deal and I called and I said: Mr. Bank Manager, I need X amount of dollars, quite a large sum. He said: Mr. Sveinson, you just write that cheque. So indeed they backed up what they said, and I can do nothing but give them full credit because, over the years, they have given me and my family absolutely superb service, and that is going something in the neighbourhood of 28 years now.
The point again that I make is the services that were offered. People do move from banks to credit unions or from one bank to another bank because of sometimes personalities rather than the service actually is not being offered there.
There were a few comments that were made earlier, some being that those banks are profit driven. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have had my--as I have just explained--little ordeals with banks. But I would like anybody to show me a financial institution that is not profit driven. If they can find it, I will probably move whatever money I do have, the little bit I have, to that particular institution.
An Honourable Member: It is not? Do you not want it profit driven?
Mr. Sveinson: No, maybe I would not. I never gave that too much thought, but that is what this discussion is all about. I thank the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render). She might have saved me some money there.
The profit-driven part of any institution--and I will just talk about Whitemouth for a minute. It was not too long ago that the bank in Whitemouth decided that they were going to move all of their accounts to Beausejour. Indeed the town and the people there, if you remember back awhile, they were hurt because it was moving to Beausejour. It did not take them long. They were there to see the bank manager and ask him why this was happening. Well, the bank manager had a couple of answers. One was that there were changes happening within the banking or the financial institutions everywhere in the world, but here also.
I mean, we have things--and I do not have to tell you. Many of you know more about these instant tellers, Interac, net banking and so on than even I do. But the changes that are happening makes it possible for smaller communities to, indeed, be able to access banks that are 50 miles away with no problem whatsoever.
An Honourable Member: What about loans?
An Honourable Member: I think he has talked about loans already.
Mr. Sveinson: My, my. I seem to have gotten a rise out of somebody.
However, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the point that I am making here is this--again it comes back to services, services offered, and sometimes--and I believe in this case--the banks did move too quickly. I do not believe that they were losing money or that they were close to losing money. I do believe that they were using the services that I have just talked about, and they felt that that community could quite easily utilize the bank in Beausejour. However, I do not believe the people were ready to do that. I believe that maybe two years or five years down the road, there might have been a feeling where they might have done it at that time, however, the feeling was once again they were hurt, so they started looking for another banking institution. That banking institution was, indeed, and it has been said here already, the South Interlake Credit Union.
Now when the South Interlake Credit Union was approached, they did in fact do a form of a study to see exactly--well, not exactly but close to how much money people would be putting into the credit union, to what extent the credit union would be used. They did a study within the community. The people in the community did not mind that. They understood that any of these institutions run on profit. Of course they do, but the nice news was, or is, that that credit union did, in fact, move to Whitemouth.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) will have four minutes remaining.
The hour now being 6 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow, 1:30 p.m., Wednesday.