4th-36th Vol. 46-Oral Questions

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

The president of the Bar Association, on public record last week, accused the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) of political interference in the selection of judges here in the province of Manitoba. It went on to say that the minister tainted the process.

Further, Madam Speaker, the president of the Law Society of Manitoba, Colleen Suche, another member of the independent committee, accused the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) of subverting the law as it affects the selection of judges. Now both these comments were made on the basis of statements made to the Chief Judge and direction given by the Chief Judge back to the committee members.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): will he have an independent credible investigation so that senior members of our justice community that are at odds about the political interference of our Justice minister--so these matters and facts can be corrected for the public, for all of us in terms of restoring the integrity in our justice system and the justice system here in Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, it seems almost laughable that this Leader of the Opposition, whose party when in office, when he was a part of that government, appointed judges on a strictly political patronage basis, would now be standing up as the champion of independent appointments to the judiciary. It is unbelievable that he would have the audacity to do that. He is basing his case entirely on the basis of comments made by people who were not present and did not even meet with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) in the deliberations. I suggest that he would be better to go and chase those somewhere else.

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Mr. Doer: This law has been passed in this Legislature, as similar laws have been passed all across Canada, and the question is whether the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) broke the law that was passed in this Legislature in 1989, a law which we respect.

Madam Speaker, Colleen Suche, the president of the Law Association, accused the minister of subverting the laws of Manitoba and subverting the process in Manitoba. It is not chasing ghosts; this is a very serious matter, and it is worthy of more than just the arrogance and contempt of members opposite.

When I asked about Ms. Suche's comments yesterday, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) said, quote: her facts are not the same as my facts on the basis of the meeting.

Now we have already seen, when it comes to facts, that the Minister of Justice has one set of facts on Thursday on who initiated the meeting and another set of facts yesterday on who initiated the discussions on a selection of an additional member of the bench. Given that Ms. Suche's reputation is on the line, the president of the bar is on the line, the Minister of Justice, we believe, is on the line, and Ms. Webster, the only person that was witness to the statements of the Minister of Justice, I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact that Wilson Parasiuk, when he was under attack from the media, did the honourable thing and resigned and had the matter investigated by a retired eminent, credible judge--why will the Premier not take the same action to restore honour and integrity back to the justice system, Madam Speaker?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, this has little to do with honour and integrity and everything to do with the political agenda of the members opposite.

Mr. Doer: I would like to ask the Premier: does he believe that the president of the Bar Association and the president of the Law Society of Manitoba, Colleen Suche, Mr. Joubert, are on an agenda, a political agenda, or are they on an issue of an integrity in our justice system? Why will the Premier not take the allegations made against his Justice minister by Ms. Suche and Mr. Joubert--why will he not take these seriously and clear the name of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) or clear the name of the other two individuals that are in dispute with his Minister of Justice?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. When our loved ones and our neighbourhoods are injured by crime, we have to know that the offenders will be brought before judges who understand very well the law and know that public safety is job one on the basis that the judges got their position and their tremendous power because they are attuned, because they are capable, not just because they paid political dues to a party or are friends of the minister or even appear to be. That is the modern way, and we support that.

My question to the minister: would he admit that all his different versions of events are concoctions because he just got caught rigging the appointment process because he did not see his Tory candidate on the list of seven?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): No, Madam Speaker, that is not correct.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister then admit that the effect of his sending the list back to the nominating committee for a bilingual candidate was to hand-pick a Tory candidate, his Tory candidate who we understand was Mr. Glen Joyal, whom he knew had applied, who was the only one interviewed? He did not have to say a name, Madam Speaker; only one person fit his order.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, there were, I was advised by the Chief Judge, 66 applications. There were 22 interviews, and the suggestions that the member opposite is making are preposterous.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who admitted in the hallway that he knew Mr. Glen Joyal was interviewed by the committee, also admit that once the list was presented to him by the nominating committee, it could not go back for any excuse or reason? It is a one-way street, but he turned it into a two-way street in search of his Tory candidate.

Mr. Toews: This is a member who claims that he and the party opposite have respect for the law, and yet through their questions and the statements that they have made today and at other times have in fact subverted the intention of the legislation. So if there is any cause in that--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Point of order. The question was very clear, and for this minister to get up and accuse the opposition of subverting the legislation when he attempted to rig the selection of judges in this province is absolutely unacceptable. You should ask him to withdraw those comments, Madam Speaker. The right thing for that minister to do is to resign because he has no credibility left in this Legislature.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the only thing demonstrated by the point raised by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) is not a point of order but the thinness of the skin of members of the New Democratic Party. I suggest they are very, very sensitive about their own abysmal, pitiful record when it comes to the appointment of judges in the time that they had an opportunity to do that. But what the honourable member for Thompson also does in raising his point of order is show, again, the hypocrisy of the New Democrats by suggesting the Attorney General is accusing New Democrats of something when, in his own question, the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) accused the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) of rigging.

So, you know, the honourable members have a pretty funny view of the rules of this place, rules for them that are quite different than rules for everybody else in the House, which demonstrates the hypocrisy of the positions they take here day in and day out.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) did not have a point of order.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I challenge your ruling.

Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it.

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Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members.

Order, please. The question before the House is: shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please rise.

A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:

Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Faurschou, Filmon, Findlay, Gaudry, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, McIntosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey.

Ashton, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Hickes, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lathlin, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers, Wowchuk.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 29, Nays 22.

Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): J'ai une question pour le ministre de la Justice (M. Toews).

Madame la présidente, il y a cinq ans quand on avait besoin des juges bilingues, il y avait un bulletin qui a demandé un candidat bilingue. Cette année, nous avons un bulletin qui a demandé un candidat seulement unilingue. Je demande au ministre de la Justice: est-ce qu'il s'est rendu compte qu'après le bulletin, il est trop tard pour demander un candidat bilingue?

[Translation]

I have a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews).

Madam Speaker, five years ago when bilingual judges were needed, there was a bulletin which requested a bilingual candidate. This year we have a bulletin that only asked for a unilingual candidate. I ask the Minister of Justice: did he realize that after the bulletin, it is too late to ask for a bilingual candidate?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I did not have the benefit of the translation, and my French is not particularly good, but I understand the question to be that the advertisement did not specify a bilingual candidate. What I can indicate to the speaker is that the Chief Judge sets the advertisements.

Mr. Chomiak: Madame la présidente, je poserai la question une fois encore. Est-ce que le ministre ne se rend pas compte que, après le bulletin, il est trop tard pour le ministre de la Justice à demander des candidats bilingues? Après le bulletin, c'est trop tard. Il peut demander un nouveau processus, mais après le bulletin il est trop tard pour le ministre à demander un candidat bilingue.

[Translation]

Madam Speaker, I will ask the question once again. Does the minister not realize that after the bulletin, it is too late for the Minister of Justice to ask for bilingual candidates? After the bulletin, it is too late. He can ask for a new process, but after the bulletin it is too late for the minister to ask for a bilingual candidate.

Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I believe I responded to that question yesterday.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Chomiak: Madame la présidente, le ministre a donné plutôt beaucoup de versions de la vérité ici à la Chambre, et je voudrais demander seulement une question au ministre. Il est le ministre de la Justice. Il sait qu'après que le processus commence, après le bulletin, il est trop tard pour le ministre à demander quelque chose de différent. Il peut demander un autre processus. Il peut demander quelque chose, mais après le bulletin, après que le processus a commencé, il est trop tard pour le ministre à demander un candidat bilingue. Je sais qu'on a besoin de candidats bilingues, mais il est trop tard pour le ministre à demander un candidat bilingue après que le processus a commencé.

[Translation]

Madam Speaker, the minister has given many versions of the truth here in the House, and I would like to ask just one question of the minister. He is the Minister of Justice. He knows that once the process begins, once the bulletin is out, it is too late for the minister to ask for something different. He can ask for another process. He can ask for something, but after the bulletin and after the process has begun, it is too late for the minister to ask for a bilingual candidate. I know that we need bilingual candidates, but it is too late for the minister to ask for a bilingual candidate once the process has begun.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, in fact, that was the question that I answered yesterday. I caught it in translation.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, in 1990, 1991 and 1993, Manitoba ranked the highest in the number of children living in poverty. In 1990 and '91, Manitoba ranked the highest for child poverty in two-parent families and are again at a disgraceful all-time high. When our child poverty rates were highest in Canada in 1993, they sat at 24.1 percent and came at the tail end of a recession experienced by all Canadians. Why is it that poverty rates now, when the economy is supposedly booming, are even higher than in 1993, are now at 25.4 percent? What is this minister doing about this disgraceful record, the worst record in Canada in terms of child poverty?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question. I do want to indicate that the statistics that were reported just recently were statistics from 1996. Madam Speaker, I recognize and realize that any level of child poverty is unacceptable. All of the things that we have done since the initiation of welfare reform in May of 1996 have been trying to ensure that people have the opportunity to work and move out of significant poverty in the welfare system. We know, as a result of welfare reform and Taking Charge! and other initiatives, that we have 1,800 more single parents today in the workforce as a result of that May 1996 initiative.

Madam Speaker, we have also put $20 million more into this year's budget for children and their families. The announcements I have been making over the last few months with BabyFirst, Earlystart, child care support, an additional $5 million, and the announcement this morning around adolescent pregnancy are all initiatives to try to address the issue of poverty.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, this minister is talking about programs and not income disparity. She does not get it. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if she believes her own rhetoric, since also in December she said that no level of child poverty is acceptable, or is she going to do something concrete, other than forcing the City of Winnipeg to reduce rates which means that poverty levels in '97 are going to be higher than they were in '96? What is this minister going to do to reduce the unacceptable rate of high levels of child poverty in Manitoba?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I wish the issue was very simple to address, but it is not. It is an extremely complex issue. Madam Speaker, the announcement that was made this morning around trying to reduce the adolescent pregnancy rate in Manitoba should go a long way. We all know that young children having children very often commit themselves to a life of poverty on welfare. We know that no matter what government is in power of any political stripe right across the country, we are never going to pay welfare rates that will meet the low-income cutoff that is set to measure poverty. If, in fact, we do not do something to address the issue of reducing the number of teen pregnancies in Manitoba, we are not going to have any significant impact on the level of poverty.

Mr. Martindale: Could the Minister of Family Services indicate to the 69,000 children in the province of Manitoba what she and her government are willing to do, if anything, just suggest one simple thing that this government is willing to do after being in office for 10 years to reduce the unacceptable rates of poverty? Will they give a CPI increase, a wage supplement, anything to reduce the rate of child poverty in Manitoba?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I will repeat for my honourable friend, because he seems not to understand that we as a government have said many, many times that the best form of social security is a job, Madam Speaker, and as our economy grows and expands and more jobs are created by the private sector in Manitoba, we will have opportunities to train people that have been on welfare to move into the workforce. Our focus is on single parents--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Family Services, to complete her response.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I indicated earlier, more single parents with young children that have been living in poverty on welfare are moving into the workforce, and the National Child Benefit augments that working income. The child care spaces that we have just announced, and the additional $5 million for child care will guarantee those individuals the opportunity to ensure their children are looked after while they are working. The Earlystart program, which prepares young children for school and creates the ability for them to learn when they get to school, certainly will break the cycle of poverty and dependence.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. It is regarding the list of candidates that was provided from the committee. His comments have been that he was hoping to see a bilingual candidate on that list. Apparently there was not a bilingual candidate. My specific question to the minister is: out of those applicants--he made reference to 66 applications--was he aware that only one of them was in fact bilingual?

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Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): If that, in fact, is true, no, I was not aware of that.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given the importance of attempting to get at least a bilingual candidate on a list, because of the controversy that has been created, is it now going to be put off indefinitely? What are the government's intentions to deal with that particular issue?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I know the issue is an important one to our government, and I believe my cabinet colleagues and I will act at the appropriate time to ensure that that need is met.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, am I to take it from the answer that the committee, then, is going to be looking at adding two names, at least two names, or a bilingual candidate to that particular list?

Mr. Toews: I understand from the Chief Judge that that is not the process the committee has adopted.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my questions are directed to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or the minister of social services. For 10 years now, except during elections, this government has pretended that aboriginal people do not exist or count when it comes to determining the real rate of poverty and the effects of this government's policies on the poor people. What I wanted to ask the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) is: as disgraceful as the official poverty rate is for this province, can she tell the Assembly what is the actual poverty rate for the people living on reserves who are included in the statistics?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, no, I cannot give my honourable friend that information right here in the House today. I do not know whether we even have that kind of information. I know that the welfare system on-reserve is paid by the federal government, and we do not provide welfare assistance on-reserve, but we do support aboriginal people off-reserve, an issue that the federal government has walked away from, and they really have created a two-tiered system for support for aboriginal people. They give money on-reserve in a significantly different way than they give support to aboriginals off-reserve.

I believe that my honourable friend would share the same point of view as we do because I know we have the leadership from the aboriginal community supportive of our position that the federal government has a moral and a financial responsibility to support aboriginal people both on- and off-reserve, and I would encourage him to join with us as we try to ensure that the federal government lives up to that responsibility.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Since the real poverty rate would be more than doubled if true statistics were compiled, I want to ask the minister whether in fact she has any idea of the effects of cuts of, for example, 21 percent in social services, what effects that kind of a cut would have on a place like Lac Brochet, for example, where the cost of living is 88 percent higher than in the city of Winnipeg?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): What I can tell my honourable friend is that we have developed partnerships with aboriginal people and particularly aboriginal youth who want to be a part of the solution to the issues that they face as a result of the cycle of poverty in the aboriginal community. That is not a criticism; it is a fact, it is a reality. We had at our announcement this morning around adolescent pregnancy the people from the aboriginal youth in Winnipeg that have partnered with us to try to determine how they can deal with building self-esteem in young women in the aboriginal community so they do not look to pregnancy and a baby as their only solution. Those youth, aboriginal youth understand the issues, and we are prepared to work with them, with others to ensure that they have the same opportunities as others. We have also partnered with Ma Mawi in Thompson with an aboriginal youth committee to deal with the same issue.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, the current health crisis in the city of Brandon goes well beyond the question of insufficient pediatric services which the government has known about for years. The doctors are expressing their anger, their frustration with the government because of millions of dollars of cuts to the Brandon General Hospital and also the way they have been treated, as a group, unfairly over many years. One existing pediatrician is leaving, another six to seven doctors are leaving this summer. Will the minister acknowledge that this government's policies have led to this sorry and serious situation, and will he tell us exactly just what the government intends to do to correct this situation in the city of Brandon?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): First of all, I will not accept any of the analysis of the member for Brandon East. We are in the middle of negotiations with the Manitoba Medical Association. They indicated very clearly during the winter that pediatric services in the city of Brandon would be one of the areas that they would target in the course of their negotiations. Is the member suggesting today that one should always just band-aid solutions to deal with a particular issue in a community or solve those issues in a real and meaningful way? We have opted to solve these issues in a real and meaningful way for the whole province, and we will continue to do so.

Mr. L. Evans: Well, does the minister realize that long-term doctors are leaving Brandon out of frustration? One doctor, who is leaving after 19 years in the city, according to today's Brandon Sun, has cited for his reasons: disgust for the provincial government, local political inaction, low fees, an extra-heavy workload and high stress. He says: I have been frustrated with Manitoba Health for a couple of years, and what has been happening in the past six months is just accumulation. He is off to Alberta for the sake of his own mental health.

Madam Speaker, when is this government going to get serious and address the medical deterioration in the city of Brandon?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, it is curious to note that the member for Brandon East--and I have seen the same article--did not reference the fact that this position can earn more dollars in Alberta, which has a greater capacity to pay physicians, and that in fact has been an area with which Manitoba has been competing for doctors.

But I can tell the member, I reiterate to him, as well, that we have approved funding for four contract pediatric positions in Brandon with a contract range of between $185,000 and $205,000 per year, which is some $30,000 more per annum than the average billing of pediatricians in Winnipeg. Is the member telling us that that should be $215,000 or $250,000? Is it New Democratic policy simply to put a lot more money into this particular area?

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Not only has the Minister of Health and the department ad hocked the whole situation of doctors in the province even though they had a process in place for five years that they disregarded, but it is ironic that this week is declared National Nursing Week by a minister when--in hospital after hospital, facility after facility, and places like Pine Falls where there have been 30 cases of reported problems in the hospitals because of the lack of nursing service--this government has failed to address the needs of nurses, dismissed the report of several weeks ago by nurses and failed to address the nursing and health care hospital needs of patients in the hospital.

What is the government proposing to do with respect to nurses in the hospital, and will they consider bridge funding to deal with the situation to hire more nurses in our institutions?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think it is always important in discussing health care that we do attempt to ascertain facts.

With respect to the Pine Falls situation, there was an article in the local paper in which the nurses' union local made the claim that some 50 percent of the beds at Pine Falls were to be closed, et cetera. In speaking with the management of the regional health authority, they expressed a great deal of concern about those statements by the local union, Manitoba Nurses' Union local in Pine Falls, because the information simply was not accurate. The hospital has proceeded to fill a number of vacancies that they had, and actually, as of last weekend when I spoke with them, were quite surprised at the statements that were coming from that particular local, because they did not reflect the true situation in the hospital.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is it not symptomatic of this government that they did not listen to the nurses' report that came out several weeks ago that illustrated serious nursing shortages throughout the province, alarming nursing shortages in Pine Falls, in the minister's own constituency--he is disregarding the comments of people who work in those institutions--and is it not a solution of this government that has let go 1,500 health care workers--that they should bridge fund employees in those institutions to allow patients to get the care they deserve and not be disregarded by the minister trying to pick political fights with individuals and not recognize there is a serious problem?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the Pine Falls hospital is funded on the same basis as other rural hospitals, on its use. As I have indicated, I spoke with the regional health authority this weekend, and they expressed to me, actually in writing, their disappointment at the position taken by the Manitoba Nurses' Union local in Pine Falls.

I can tell the member that there are problems in nursing across the province; I have not denied that, but what is absolutely fundamental and important is that we get an accurate handle on the issues. They vary from place to place, and many of those issues quite frankly have been exaggerated over the years, going right back to the days of Larry Desjardins of the New Democratic Party government. I have shared with members clippings from that time. Vera Chernecki and the Manitoba Nurses' Union made exactly the same claims and they did not prove to be true then, and they often do not prove to be true now.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): All of us in this Legislature, Madam Speaker, have a very hefty responsibility to the people of Manitoba. No one has more responsibility than the Minister of Justice. If there is one position in this House that has to be above and beyond all question, it is the position of the Minister of Justice. We are now in a situation where, because of the minister's action in the judge appointment process, the direct accusations of rigging the process, we now see the Law Society, the Bar Association, the Chief Judge expressing concerns and in some cases very specific concerns about their lack of confidence in this minister.

This minister certainly has not got the confidence of the opposition. Will he understand that he cannot continue as Minister of Justice without the full faith of the people I referenced and the people of Manitoba? The only way to have any hope of restoring that is to resign, to have an independent inquiry, and let that independent inquiry decide on whether the minister did anything wrong, as has been made by the accusations in this House.

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, there is a very quick process that the member can take advantage of and through the law courts. What in fact--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Toews: If the issue is one of process, which the member indicates that is his concern, that the process that was followed was not correct, there are legal remedies that can quickly identify whether that in fact is accurate, and yet the member chooses not to take those remedies, rather chooses to engage in a political debate, and that is essentially what this is, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Ashton: Why will this minister not recognize that to say, as he is saying now, that the only remedy is for somebody to take him to court--will he not recognize that the real remedy, Madam Speaker, that we want from this minister is his resignation as the first step in terms of restoring confidence in our justice system in this province?

Mr. Toews: Well, again, now we see exactly what he wants. He does not want an inquiry; he wants a resignation.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, when will this minister stop playing those kinds of games? We have said he should resign, then have the independent inquiry. Why will he not do what the Justice minister in Ontario has done on an accusation that is very similar? Why will he not do the proper thing, restore confidence in our justice system by resigning and then have the independent inquiry to his actions, which we believe were an attempt to rate the selection of judges in this province?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I am already quite aware of what their view of this issue is, but what I have not heard from them is on what basis have they justified subverting the intention of the Legislature by publicly naming names in this forum, and that is disgusting.

Mr. Ashton: On a new question, Madam Speaker. Once again this minister shows just how much he does not get what the concern is. He is now saying that we in the opposition should not question his inappropriate action. Is that what he is saying? Why will he not understand that it is not just what he has said to us in terms of the opposition but the fact that he no longer has the confidence of people in the legal system and the public of Manitoba? He has no credibility. Why will he not resign?

Mr. Toews: If there is any doubt in the mind of the member that I question their right to ask questions, that is not correct. I do believe they have that right.

Mr. Ashton: Then why is this minister clinging to this untenable position? How does he expect to function as Minister of Justice when he does not have the confidence now--not only of many people in terms of the public of Manitoba but many key people in the judicial system? How can he continue with the dispute that is going on with the Law Association, the Bar Association, the Chief Judge? Why will he not do the appropriate thing and resign?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I believe I have answered that question.

Mr. Ashton: I want to ask the minister, then, what does it take? I mean, how much longer is he going to cling to this position? What does it take for this Minister of Justice, and why is he in such a different situation from the Minister of Justice in Ontario with his Conservative colleagues who did the right thing, who resigned and now is putting the whole issue to an independent investigation? Is he saying there is a different standard of ethics and morality in this province than Ontario?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, one thing that I do know is that the law applies on both sides of the House. I have given an explanation, but the members opposite have not explained why they choose to ignore certain aspects of the law that they indicate they are defending.

Mr. Ashton: On a final supplementary, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I believe the honourable member has asked a main question and two supplementaries. The honourable member, on a new question.

Mr. Ashton: Once again, Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. I am just wondering what advantage the minister sees to taking his position that we have seen very clearly in Question Period today, that he is basically saying to anyone in this province, whether it be from the Law Society, the Bar Association, the Chief Judge, or any citizen, that the only thing he is accountable to is being sued in court, that he does not care what kinds of difficulties he has put himself in as Minister of Justice. He will cling to that position no matter what. Why will he not do the right thing and resign, clear the air, give us the independent inquiry that we all want in this Legislature?

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Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I did not indicate that in fact that was the only remedy. He indicated that certain individuals have raised certain concerns. One of the things that I find puzzling is--given that both of those individuals who may have raised concerns were never a part of any conversation that I had on this issue--why they would not have come to me and asked me what my version of the events is. If these individuals want to talk to me about it, I would be more than happy to sit down and talk to them. That is one remedy that could be very easily done as well.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. The head of the Law Society has contradicted the minister. The head of the Bar Association has contradicted the minister. There have been newspaper reports that indicate contradictory statements to what the minister has said. The minister himself has contradicted himself about the process that took place with regard to the appointment of judges in this Legislature.

Why will the minister not realize that the integrity of the office is more important than one person, the integrity of the office and the rule of law is more important than the minister's own ego and the minister's own position, and will the minister not do the right thing, as Mr. Parasiuk did before, step aside, allow an independent investigation of the process and the comments and what went on and allow the air to be cleared so justice can be seen to be done in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, I understand that that was the matter of privilege. That was raised, and that is under advisement by the Speaker.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, a supplementary. When will the minister realize that he cannot hide behind legalities of calling for certiorari? He cannot hide behind legalities. He has lost the confidence of this Legislature. He has lost the confidence of the people in the legal community. There is enough--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Chomiak: My question to the minister is: as a man of integrity and a man who understands that the rule of law is more paramount than one individual, will he not do the right thing, step aside--he can come back if he is cleared judicially--do the right thing for the people and the judicial process of Manitoba and resign and allow for an independent inquiry of this because it is so serious, Madam Speaker? We cannot continue to go on hiding behind legalities and playing games in this Legislature by the minister.

Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his advice.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.