Consideration of Concurrence Motion
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to be very long, but I did want to ask a few questions on the situation at Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, in that mining district.
In fact, tomorrow there is a celebration of the 25 years of the Ruttan mine, which has provided livelihood to the miners and indirectly to the whole business community and actually created the community of Leaf Rapids, a community that has thrived for 25 years but unfortunately has been given a sentence of only three years remaining in known reserves. This is a situation that must be directed immediate attention, in our opinion, and my questions will surround what strategies the government intends to take now that being a silent partner, as the minister has suggested in other forums, is apparently not sufficient for this mining district, which is in a significant crisis.
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Any type of exploration will take a lead time of three to four years before we can look to the development and the extraction of ore from deposits that we are fairly certain of. If that is not going to be the intention of the government, then I would ask them what evidence, what geological evidence, there is to indicate that the reserves have been depleted in that region.
So my first question to the minister is related to the government's own policy. The government's policy indicates that they will create incentives and initiatives for mining communities, mining districts, that are facing pending closure or depleted resources. Clearly Leaf Rapids falls into this situation and is in a desperate crisis right now. This government needs to become interventionist, needs to take action now, and it would be an appropriate time to make those commitments as we look at the past 25 years and, hopefully, to developing 25 more years for the future. So I ask the minister how he can justify breaking the government's own policy of not providing specific initiatives for the Leaf Rapids area.
Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The most helpful answer to the question being asked is to go back to what we have discussed many times in committee, and that is the proactive approach is the favourite approach by our government in relation to addressing the kinds of challenges that face Leaf Rapids. We did not use the description, silent partner, lightly. We are there to listen to the community with the kinds of ideas that they might have to address this concern in partnership with us. That is the kind of challenge that we have put out to the communities of the North through, I might say, the critic for the official opposition, the honourable member for St. James, and directly in conversations and in responses to communications we get.
We are encouraging Leaf Rapids to come up with the kinds of approach they would like to take with us. My department has been challenged to involve the northern mining communities, the traditional communities that are in the state that Leaf Rapids is in--that is, with an uncertain future--has been challenged to work with them and involve them more in things like the mining conferences that take place to generate capacities for them to promote themselves from their perspective as a mining community.
Other than these kinds of special community-driven approaches in partnership with the department, we of course have continued involvement in the MEAP programs that have already been committed to. I certainly agree that many times this does not result in a mine emerging until some years after the exploration begins, but I am very pleased to say that there is evidence that does not sometimes take that long, because today it was announced by Canmine that they have proposed to build Manitoba's next new mine, a $20-million Maskwa nickel project to create 100 jobs in the eastern part of the province near Bird River, which is south of Bissett and about 150 kilometres northeast of Winnipeg. The commencement of construction is proposed for the spring of 1999 with mill commissioning during the last quarter of 2000 planned.
A plan has actually been filed, a proposal with Environment Manitoba, to construct a 1,365 metric tonne per day nickel-copper mining and milling development on the Maskwa property. So these things do happen. That was a beneficiary of programs put forward by this government, and that kind of thing can happen in other areas of the province.
The other aspect is there is continued geological programming in the traditional mining areas of the province, and this sort of programming has allocated approximately $1.7 million for direct expenditures on field geology, and Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids have a portion of that funding. I might say, these decisions as to where funding goes are the product of--as the honourable member knows--consultation with and advice from the Mining Association of Manitoba and its members and the industry generally.
The focus is on those sorts of approaches. We look forward to working closely with Leaf Rapids, with their ideas, just as we have been doing with Lynn Lake. We have funded through the Mining Reserve, as the member knows, an economic development officer there. We will be announcing support for another economic development program there within the next two weeks. We also have still under consideration the idea, which I give credit to the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) for, but we started the program suggesting a credit union involvement in Lynn Lake. By working together with the honourable member for Flin Flon, we think something might be able to be done in that respect, and we continue to work on that.
Leaf Rapids we encourage to follow that example and the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) to follow that example of working together on these kinds of issues. I am sure something might emerge.
Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to ask the Minister of Mines if he would reconsider the allocation of geoscience resources that he is responsible for, and that is the staff of the Mines Branch, Geological Services branch, redirect those resources in a significant way into the Leaf Rapids area.
During the Estimates period we discovered that less than 1 percent of the department's resources were going to be working in the Leaf Rapids area. Mr. Chairman, this is totally unacceptable. This community is not going to have a future in the mineral sector unless we do some major investment in exploration right now. So I am asking the minister: will he intervene in the plans of the department, ensure that there is a significant commitment of resources, geoscience personnel, that are going to be conducting full field seasons or the equivalent in the Leaf Rapids-Lynn Lake mining belt?
Mr. Newman: The breakdown of the expenditures, the $1.7 million that I mentioned on field geology, is that 22.6 percent is directed at the Flin Flon-Snow Lake area; the Thompson nickel belt 20.6 percent; Northern Superior 37.5 percent; Bissett region 2.7 percent; and south central Manitoba 16.1 percent. Indeed the Lynn Lake-Leaf Rapids percentage, according to my understanding, is less than 1 percent and is about .5 percent of that. I have asked my department to indicate why that is the case and why there has not been a redirection in those areas.
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My understanding is that there is a mapping cycle, and the focus is on the areas which are receiving most heavy expenditures. There is a beginning of an initiation for new programming in the Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, and Bissett areas as the cycle turns. The department is in the process of evaluating what could be done to upgrade the level of knowledge in these two camps, but they have advised me at this point that full-scale implementation could not occur until after ongoing program commitments are completed.
The possible actions in the Lynn Lake region would include a reanalysis of existing data using new scientific techniques in an attempt to find new insights into base metal potential for the belt. This approach was highly successful in the Flin Flon-Snow Lake area and is currently being employed in the Northern Superior Geological Province. This work could be carried out this fiscal year with additional funding requirements for approximately $12,000 based on interpretation of new data. A new geological program targeted at base metal exploration could be developed. There are going to be two departmental geologists in the Lynn Lake region for approximately one week in August of 1998, and the geologist will be looking at the structural controls on gold mineralization within the belt with a view to developing a more comprehensive program targeted at gold exploration. Any additional geological programming beyond what is now committed for in Thompson nickel belt and Northern Superior Geological Province in the Flin Flon-Snow Lake area would require additional staff.
I have challenged my department to examine this situation because of the increasing needs for new mines, new potential to be determined in Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, but this again will not solve the shorter-term problem which the honourable member identified. That is why, in the periods between mines in production or mines being developed, communities must, in anticipation that this will inevitably happen, sometimes sooner rather than later because of mining prices for minerals and other features of the marketplace in the world market for minerals, there is a need to have alternative means of sustaining communities. As a result, I go back and continue to urge the honourable member to invite and encourage the community of Leaf Rapids, like Lynn Lake has done, to really focus on alternatives to mining for livelihoods in the interim.
I think that is the best solution, and we have proven with Lynn Lake and we have indicated to Leaf Rapids that we are supportive of using the mining reserve for these kinds of situations. My understanding is Leaf Rapids is in the process of preparing a presentation, a proposal in this respect and may have even presented it. I look forward to seeing what emerges out of that.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the minister's response to my question was extremely disappointing. Having practised in the field for numerous years, I would suggest to the minister that indeed it may be somewhat difficult, but the civil service, and in this case the geoscience department, must go on to a fast track, go into areas of emergent need, and I would suggest that Leaf Rapids is one of those. To wait another year for planning is just going to make it even more difficult.
The last time that I recall that any active intervention has been done in the Leaf Rapids area was back in the mid-'80s when we also went through a cycle of low prices and diminishing known reserves. At that time, numerous geologists were deployed into the area and would further challenge the minister to evaluate the priorities. It is true, and I understand that there is a long-term plan and these things usually take a number of years, but that is old-think, Mr. Chairman, to the minister. It is old-think. What the mining association told us yesterday in a meeting that we had with the executive was there were three things that they felt that were crucial for mining in Manitoba: one, a fair tax regime; two, stable land tenure; and No. 3, more frequent and many more geoscience reports and maps. The more maps that you can pull out, the better things will be for industry, for exploration and for developing known reserves which are absolutely essential for a stable mining community in Manitoba. That is our goal, and I know that it is the goal of the minister.
I urge him to become active in this area. Push the department into a new vision and challenge them to go into the new areas and forget the old cycle. As the World Turns is a long-running soap opera, and what we need is a new leaf, new-leaf profits, so the minister must think new and look for new ways to meet the challenging needs of Leaf Rapids.
The Chamber of Commerce of Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake has challenged the minister into declaring that area into a mining watch zone which then would be--they have called on the minister to make it a special designated area under the MEAP program, similar to the Superior Province. Has the minister considered their proposal and is he willing to endorse their recommendation?
Mr. Newman: First, in response to the preamble, the windup, the preamble to what you have just asked as a question, the answer to the Mining Association, of course, has been by us that we are working towards the first two objectives in ways that are demonstrable with our last budget and through our very vigorous and aggressive efforts to achieve implementation of treaty land entitlement and northern flood agreements.
On the geoscience data, we certainly are looking very closely at the future of funding of these kinds of programs. That is something that is currently under serious examination, and we look forward to see what emerges from the ideas that we have put forward which we think are consistent with what the industry wants and is beneficial to all Manitobans.
Specifically responding to your question, and being a past president of the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, I have a certain continuing appreciation of the ideas that they come up with. In this case, I know that the Mining Association contributed to the formulation of those ideas, and I am very pleased that the honourable member for St. James has now become a respecter of, and appreciator of, the chambers of commerce of the province and their ideas. I am most appreciative and hope that continues in all issues where the Chamber of Commerce brings its ideas here. I will keep careful note and monitor when the honourable member for St. James agrees or does not agree with the positions that are advanced by the Chamber of Commerce. The fundamental philosophy, of course, I subscribe to and contributed to implementing during my years in private life. I am very pleased that the honourable member for St. James has likewise seen fit to probably endorse the underlying principles of that organization which would include, of course, enterprise and include a community-building, community-development sort of approach, something that chambers do well.
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Now, the very specific recommendation here, in answer to the question, very simply is yes, we are considering that in the approach we are taking on the longer haul as we review the MEAP program and how it might be revised and indeed how our approach to investing in mining development will be done in a futuristic way. There are some very serious changes we have been recommending there and will be announced in due course.
With respect to the mine watch approach, that leads into the kind of partnership that I have been talking about, the kind of partnership I would envisage with specific communities. I appreciate the gesture of the mining companies, but we do not want to do old-think.
We do not want to, in effect, induce mining companies to focus their efforts on areas they know well when there is a potential for other areas that might have far greater potential for lasting and sustainable mining production. That is, of course, why the focus has been, to a certain extent, on the Northern Superior area which is largely unexplored. The attitude, which I hope the honourable member is not attempting to engender for Leaf Rapids, is that it has got to be found in our backyard, because that is not how this country was built. It is not how Manitoba's north was built, and it is not what private enterprise is going to respect either.
They will go where they are going to ultimately achieve the greatest return, where their investment is going to get the greatest return. Allowing the marketplace to determine that is something the mining companies even want to have done, and we can, however, as a local community, demonstrate how welcome mining companies are in their area, and they can do all those things locally to make mining as attractive as possible. The cost-effective vantages are already there, and those can be broadcast and celebrated to attract and retain mining companies.
Also, those communities, as I spoke to the Mid-Canada Mining Corridor Conference in Thompson when the honourable member was there, these communities can become suppliers and participants in mining, wherever it is in the province, and certainly in the north of the province.
There are also new opportunities opening up in Nunavut, emerging huge opportunities, and these mining communities, with experience, can not only provide sometimes trained people to work in these new operations but also can provide training, can provide resources, can provide supplies, expertise, to these kinds of communities that are developing as well. The attitude that a community must continue to exist as it is now, forever, and the taxpayers of Manitoba should support that or mining companies should subsidize that is not even a value to the community because it does nothing but create false hopes and not cause them to do things that really ensure stability and recognition of the realities of the times and of the future.
Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Ms. Mihychuk: My final question. Given that the minister has basically said that he refuses to reallocate geoscience personnel, that he is not prepared at this time to make special provisions for the MEAP, I am going to suggest another proposal for the Leaf Rapids-Lynn Lake area, something that the minister had within his powers for several years and realized through the department its immediate importance and relevance, and that is a workable prospector program.
The recent Order-in-Council which reduced the amount allocated for that program was cut in half, but it was not used up. It was not used to its potential. Obviously, the people that had planned that fund had aspirations of having this be a fairly significant program. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons, this program was a dismal failure in terms of recruiting new prospectors. The province took a step to create a course that was to occur last year, was bungled and really was a disaster. I am asking the minister to create a prospector's course this summer, right now, in the Leaf Rapids area, where individuals could be out in the field doing what needs to be done, and that is staking claims, going out into the bush, looking for those signs that would indicate further mineral potential. We have the personnel in that area. We have a crisis situation. All it takes is leadership from this minister, and he could pull it together and provide a meaningful program for an area where we have infrastructure, where we, unfortunately, have very short reserves and where we have a great deal of enthusiasm and need right now.
Will the minister create a special prospector's course for the Leaf Rapids-Lynn Lake area?
Mr. Newman: From the specifics of your idea, and if they are embraced by the community as well, it is something that I would bring certainly to the attention of the people in my department who are very interested in having a very effective prospector's training program.
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, I have a question for the same minister. I have had a few calls from constituents who have property up in cottage country on Lake Winnipeg, and it is a question that I do not have an answer for. It is with respect to the regulation of the waters on Lake Winnipeg. I continue to get these calls with respect to the water levels and the erosions that are occurring, from what I am told, to the properties of the people that live in my constituency and have their property in the Lake Winnipeg area.
Can you tell me: the water levels on Lake Winnipeg, have you exceeded, do you have a maximum level that is on the lake? What recent checks have you done to ensure that the water levels have not been exceeded? Has any consideration been given by your department or yourself, as minister, with respect to the appointment of an independent study to look at water levels on Lake Winnipeg, to give the people that are calling me and I know my colleagues, to give our constituents some level of comfort or assurance that the water levels have not exceeded the maximum levels to which they were supposed to be regulated to? Can you provide me with that information, please?
Mr. Newman: What I will do is I am going to invite Manitoba Hydro to come and make a presentation to your caucus to update you on, first of all, the facts as they see them, and also on the program which has been developed in conjunction with the communities and stakeholders along the shores of Lake Winnipeg, the people impacted by living on the shores of Lake Winnipeg. Then, I think you will be in a position to answer the questions of your constituents based on that kind of expert opinion, analysis and community consultation.
The process is one of trying to address the inherent consequences of living on the shores of a lake which has always, since its post-ice-age emergence, been subject to rises and falls, far more extreme before regulation, in terms of the total range, and also the impact of wind, which sometimes, in combination with higher water periods, can, with the forces of nature which become apparent from time to time, wreak havoc on anything in their path.
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The short answer that all of the evidence provided by Hydro reveals is that there were certain times when there was a convergence of persistent winds over a long period of time, in conjunction with high water levels that had an impact in certain locations, that were dramatic and hurtful to families who of course have the greatest love for their properties, whether they are homes or cottages. It is something that can be mitigated by taking some actions, and that is the other part of the process which we are working with Hydro on and Natural Resources is working with Hydro on, how one can minimize the impacts of these forces of nature converging at particular times.
Mr. Reid: So then I take it, because the last part of my question had to do with an independent study, our constituents collectively could have some reasonable level of assurance, because I get the sense in discussions with them that there is, if I can use the term guardedly, some mistrust in the information that perhaps is coming forward from Hydro through us to our constituents, that if there were an independent study that could be done, it hopefully would provide some confidence that the information coming forward would be accurate. I think that is part of the problem that is here, that there is not an independent study that has taken place. The last part of my question was: would you be prepared, through your department, to have that independent study undertaken so it would provide that level of assurance for our constituents?
Mr. Newman: The position that has been taken repeatedly by the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) as the critic with respect to Hydro issues has been to express admiration and respect for the way Hydro conducts itself and the leadership shown by the board and its chair, Mr. McCallum, and the president of the corporation, Mr. Brennan. Hydro is not a corporation which, in this modern age, exists to profit at the expense of Manitobans. It is there to serve all stakeholders in the province; it is owned by them, and they are their customers as well. This is not a case where the mandate of Hydro is inconsistent with the goals of the stakeholders.
The challenge is to balance the impacts of all consequences of nature's involvement to the extent that we have deigned to interfere with nature's normal processes and therefore replace Mother Nature's way or God's way of having things happen. There is a need for the greatest intelligence to be applied to try and control results. But the moment you do that, you are going to have to make sure it is done fairly and equitably in ways that are understood by all people impacted by it. The only solution to do that is to have public input. It is not having an expert say something.
I have no doubt that the credibility is there for the reasons I have given in terms of Hydro's data, which I might say is often the product of monitoring which is done and is unimpeachable in terms of its objectivity. The great challenge is for enough people to understand how this corporate interference with nature should be distributed, how it should be allocated among Manitobans. The only way you can do that is through discussion, sharing of the facts and, hopefully, allowing reason to prevail over emotion that always emerges when there is damage to property and one is looking for someone to be faulted for it. There can be things that are done collectively to try and minimize impacts on individual properties, but there is no point doing it for one individual or a set of families or set of properties if there is a greater impact on somebody else. So it is a very complicated issue, and the approach that is being taken by Hydro, which I have certainly influenced in happening and support, is to have stakeholder involvement in arriving at what is appropriate and fair to properly allocate the consequences of corporate involvement in regulating the lake and dealing with the forces of nature in ways that are an act of good will by Hydro, an act of customer relations by Hydro. I invite you, if you make a request to have Hydro make a presentation to you, I will send my request immediately that they accede to your request and frankly make the same presentation to your caucus that they made to our caucus.
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): My questions I believe are for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), but they may also have implications for the Minister of Urban Affairs, so I will just ask the question and whoever can or will answer, can or will answer.
It is dealing with Portagescape, which is I believe a very positive plan for making Portage a pedestrian-comfortable environment, a phrase I heard today which I though was an excellent phrase. My understanding is that the city has committed approximately $3 million from several sources to begin phase one of Portagescape, which is to go from Fort to Carlton. There have been negotiations, I understand, underway with the province to participate financially to assist with the second phase of Portagescape which would be from Carlton to Spence, which would include the University of Winnipeg and the CBC.
I guess my first question is: what is the status of those negotiations for the provincial component of Portagescape?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): The project that the member is referring to was brought to our attention just a little while ago, in fact, as to the request for funding. Usually what we do is we ask the City of Winnipeg to come forth with suggestions for funding under various allocations early in the year, which they did do. This came in as a sort of add-on once there was an indication that the Portage Avenue business association was willing to participate, and then the City of Winnipeg initiated discussions also of trying to enhance Portage Avenue.
They came to us with a request originally for I believe it was $3 million, and then when we got the official request through a letter it was $4 million. So that was of a concern to us as to exactly what the request was and why it had changed so much.
We did have a meeting though with the city. One of the topics of discussion was exactly what was the request and the amount of monies that were being proposed. We do have funding allocation resources under what we call the Urban Capital Allocation fund, and that is a place where we can allocate funds to try to accommodate the city. The city has asked that we try to find so-called new funds or different funds to try to accommodate this request.
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We are in the process of looking at various allocations throughout various programs within the city of Winnipeg to see whether we can accommodate a portion of the request. We cannot appropriate $4 million worth of new funding to the city for this project. They know that and we have indicated that to them, but we can look at possibly a redirection of similar fundings through possibly the Urban Capital Allocation fund or possibly maybe through the Winnipeg Development fund to see whether we can accommodate some of the requests. The initial request for $4 million for new funding is not available at this time from the city, pardon me, from the province.
Ms. Barrett: Why is it not? There is a project that has been undertaken by the city, by the merchants of Portage Avenue. Just in the last few months, there have been 11 buildings bought on Portage Avenue. The Delta, the Lombard and the Free Press are undertaking multimillion dollar renovations which will bring more people downtown to work and will also provide a new look to two of the landmark hotels on Portage Avenue. The work is being undertaken, I understand, by the Mennonite Central Committee or a group of Mennonite people for the renovation of the Met, to say nothing of the fact that seven new storefronts have been rented in the last little while and 11 buildings bought on Portage Avenue, plus there has been an enormous amount of interest on the part of not only the Portage Avenue business people but the citizens of the city of Winnipeg who are beginning now to recognize the need for Portage Avenue to become what it once was, which is not just a freeway through which people drive but the heart of the city, the connector between the newer parts of the city and the downtown area, the Exchange District, The Forks area, the north Main area and through the Main-Norwood bridge down to the southeast part of the city.
This shows, I believe, a huge commitment on the part of No. 1, the city; No. 2, the business people on Portage Avenue to make a major contribution to the upgrading of this essential component to a vital Winnipeg which is essential to a vital Manitoba. The problem, Mr. Minister, is that if the province does not give assurances as to money, and enough money, to help with Phase II of streetscape, very soon what will happen is that--tenders are going out now given our weather situation. They have plans to start construction this fall, to go as late into November as they can, and to begin again very early next spring in order to complete it in time for the Pan Am Games. The communications hub will be the CBC building. Many of the people, we hope, that participate in the Pan Am Games will be using downtown, will be passing through downtown. They come from parts of the world where a downtown is a vital place.
I am sure the government is aware of the concerns and the need for commitment now to money to assist the owners of Portage Avenue businesses, the Downtown BIZ , the City of Winnipeg, who are simply asking for the assistance from the Province of Manitoba to do something that is in the province's best interest not only for the Pan Am Games and beyond, but also, Mr. Minister, remember we are going to have on November 20, the Grey Cup parade. What could very easily happen is if we have half of streetscape only, or Portagescape only, that is going to be completed, you are going to have for the Grey Cup parade--well, you will anyway even if the province comes through, it will not be finished by November 20, but it will look very strange if it is only a quarter done because the province will not kick in the money needed to make it complete, so that they cannot plan for it to be completely finished.
Try to imagine, Mr. Minister, what it will look like next July and August if it is only Portagescaped on the north side of Portage or if it is only Portagescaped for Phase II, which is Fort to Carlton. What kind of traffic problems are there going to be? What is the single largest concern that people raised with the Atlanta Olympics? It was transportation. Now I am not for a moment suggesting that the problems here would be anywhere near what Atlanta had, but it is one of those areas where people pay attention to it. It is a visual thing. It is easy to talk about, and if there is a problem with Portagescape, then that is going to be a huge, I mean a huge, problem for Portage Avenue in the long run and for the people of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba in the short run, both for the Grey Cup and the Pan Am Games. I do not understand why the province does not say to the city, we do not know where this money is going to exactly come from because we have to work it out through special warrants or reallocation of WDA money or something, but we agree with you that this is an essential component to a successful and vital downtown, and we know that we are under the gun as far as timing is concerned.
So I am asking the minister to take these things into account and to pledge today, if he can, but certainly to pledge that money from wherever it is coming--if it is not coming from WDA reallocation money, perhaps $1 million or $2 million or $3 million or $4 million out of that $600-million fiscal stabilization fund could be utilized. There is nothing keeping the government from supporting this project except a political decision. There is no legislative requirement that has to be changed. There is no policy decision that has to be made. The government is on record saying it is essential that we have a vital and vibrant downtown. Well, Mr. Minister, I am asking you, on behalf of the merchants of Portage Avenue, on behalf of the citizens of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba, to put your money where your mouth is and support today Portagescape Phase II.
Mr. Reimer: The member seems to imply that this government is not supportive of what is happening in Winnipeg in the downtown area and on Portage Avenue and working with the city in trying to come to some sort of understanding in the direction of what is best for Winnipeg or Manitoba. Far be it for her to think that we are not committed to trying to help the city in any way we can. I think it has been proven time and time again of our commitment and our allocation of funds and, in fact, it was just even reported in the fair taxation report that we just put out yesterday by the committee that Winnipeg is by far the highest per capita funded city by the government in a province of any place in Canada.
But in regard to Portage Avenue, I have indicated to the member that, if the City of Winnipeg wants to use the UPCA-III funding allocation, we are willing to work with them on that. There is approximately $5-million unconditional money a year that goes into the UPCA, and if they feel that is where the allocation should come from, we can utilize that as their area. But the City of Winnipeg has indicated that they do not want to use that fund. They want to keep that fund, and they want new money to go into this Portagescaping. Well, we are saying that we have enough categories of funding in envelopes of funding that are available that we give to the city that we can utilize those types of allocations for this Portage streetscaping. As I mentioned prior, we did meet with the city. We are in discussions with them to try to come to some sort of understanding of funding requirements because as it is right now, there is a discrepancy in what was originally requested and what was sent out in a letter. Originally the request was for $3 million. When the letter and the proposal came from City Council, it was for $4 million. So we asked for a clarification as to exactly what the allocation that they are requesting is. To date, to the best of my knowledge, we have not heard a reply back from the city on that. So we have indicated there are various envelopes that are available for possible reallocation of funding, but they have to agree to that too, because that is funding commitment that we have with the city.
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So it is not as if we do not have the commitment to try to work with the city, but there are certain procedures and avenues of availability of funding that we want to make clear and we want to be established with concurrence with the city. As to not having the dedication towards trying to make it better for the downtown area or for streetscaping, I think that is a long stretch by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).
Ms. Barrett: The minister appears, in his answer, to be saying several things which, if they are not mutually exclusive, certainly are going on divergent paths, so I would like to ask for some clarification.
My understanding is that the minister has said that they have a question about what the actual dollar amount is that the city wants from the province, and I am assuming they also have a question as to how that $3 million or $4 million would be spent and that they are in negotiations in talking about that. The minister is also saying there might actually be some money available from the province outside of the Urban Capital monies that the minister referenced--the $5-million unconditional money. So that is slightly different.
Then, finally, the minister appears to be saying that there is no more money, that they should use their own resources to fund this, that they should use the $5-million unconditional grant. So, if the minister could please clarify that--is he saying there is still an opportunity for the province to come up with new money from whatever source, or is he saying that they are only in discussions about reallocating existing monies that the city already has a commitment from the province that will be flowing from the province to the city?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): As the member for Wellington may have seen in one media source today, one of the local papers, an article talking about some of the requests that we currently have before us from the City of Winnipeg, directly or indirectly. I think she is familiar with probably all of them. There is the Portage streetscape initiative which, as the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) has said, is a $4-million request, and there also is a request to do some improvements at the Winnipeg Stadium. The City of Winnipeg just approved putting some money into the Winnipeg Stadium and also providing some loan guarantee authority for Winnipeg Enterprises to do some improvements there. So there is a request in that area to provide some support for that facility, and they certainly make a compelling argument as to why they need some upgrading to that facility in terms of its continual utilization, whether it be for professional football or concerts or other community activities and events.
Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Of course we have the whole north Main initiative, the Neeginan project, which the City of Winnipeg has made a commitment to, and the task force that prepared the report on that initiative has made a request of both the federal government and the provincial government. So what has happened over the course of the last several weeks is we have had at least three very major projects coming to the provincial government asking for financial support for, on the surface, what appear to be both important and very good initiatives. The combination of the Department of Urban Affairs and departments of Finance are obviously looking at the financial magnitude of all of these requests, doing the assessments of the staging of them, what the timing requirements are, what the cash flow requirements are, obviously assessing the merits of the projects, and that is the most important part of that, the issue that is being addressed right now.
When it comes to potentially funding any of them, if we decide that it is appropriate to fund them, it might well be that some funding is redirected from some existing funding like the Urban Capital Partnership Agreement, but there might also be the opportunity to direct some funding from some other sources within government. So it could be a redirection of some funding from existing allocations or some funding being provided from some other sources. So that decision has not been made; that analysis is currently in process.
We recognize the time lines that she has already touched on these issues, particularly Portage Avenue. We recognize the City of Winnipeg has committed their money and that, if we are going to be partnering in that, we should be giving a decision fairly shortly, and we are certainly intending to do just that.
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I want to ask the Minister responsible for Sport (Mr. Stefanson) about some issues that have arisen recently that have affected my constituents and which I believe have been issues for some time. I know the minister must be aware of them, and I would like to know what he has done in the interim.
This deals specifically with the hirings at the Pan Am Games, and the proportion of people who are being hired from outside (a); and (b) the way in which applications are being treated from local people. I am referring particularly in this case to the Winnipeg Free Press article by Scott Taylor, on Saturday May 30, 1998, and it deals with an issue raised in this case by one of Canada's gymnasts who has served Canada in the Pan Am Games, at the Olympics, as well as at, I believe, the Pan Pacific Games.
In addition to these accomplishments, Ms. Cushman also has a degree in Spanish from the University of Manitoba. She responded to advertisements for events co-ordinators, and I believe there was another kind of advertisement, as well, for the Pan Am Games. I believe this was over six months ago. When she applied, she took her resume down, and she went over it with people at the Pan Am Games. She did anticipate that she would at least get an acknowledgement of response of that application. To this date, she has not received even an acknowledgement of her application.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to ask through you to the Minister responsible for Sport, a version of this story, as far as I know an accurate version, was carried in the Winnipeg Free Press by Scott Taylor. I believe my colleague the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), our critic for Sport, has raised this issue or similar issues with the minister. We are now almost at the end of June. I wonder if the minister could tell us what he has done, what inquiries he has made of the Pan Am Games committee, and what he can tell us about the principles of hiring and the actual application of those principles. In particular, can he give us some explanation of why an Olympic medallist, a Winnipegger, speaks Spanish and has served Canada in many capacities as an elite athlete, has not been even accorded the dignity and the courtesy of a response to her application?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): The member for Wolseley is partly correct. Her colleague did raise the issue about the staffing for the Pan Am Games. To the best of my recollection, she did not raise this particular situation with this individual who, as has been outlined, was the basis of at least one article in the Winnipeg Free Press.
First of all, on the overall issue, the information I currently have is the Pan Am Games are currently employing some 170 people, of which 14 are non-Manitobans, and actually out of the 14, four are non-Canadian. So one can certainly see from that, that obviously the vast majority are Manitobans. Certainly, the objective of the games and our objective as a government and a funding partner, and I am assuming it is shared by members opposite, is to give every opportunity to Manitobans. I think what has happened with these games, not unlike the Canada Games in Brandon, not unlike many other games in particular areas, there are people who have developed the particular skills and so on, so you do end up with a core of some people who really are so-called games experts, who offer their services to various games. As a result, we are seeing some of that here with the Pan Am Games. But, certainly, our focus is to give every opportunity to Manitobans, either as employees, obviously as volunteers--I think we are now up over 12,000 volunteers--Manitoba businesses, all of those kinds of things.
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Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
I will follow up on the specific individual. What I was told initially, and there seems to be some confusion, that, again, I am going from memory here, but that the Pan Am Games Society did go back through all of their applications and could not find an application from this individual. So that, right there, seems to conflict with the media coverage through the Free Press, but I think it is an important issue to clarify. I think it is important for the games to obviously have contact with her and have a discussion about that issue, along with whether or not she still is looking for opportunities with the Pan Am Games Society and so on.
So I am certainly prepared to ensure to make a commitment that I will follow up with the Pan Am Games organization to encourage them and push them to do just that, obviously be in contact with her and resolve all of this, whether the confusion around her application, but more importantly whether or not she is still interested and/or whether or not there is a role for her to play with the Pan Am Games. I want to assure the member for Wolseley, our expectation and our commitment is to maximize the opportunities for Manitobans to participate in various ways in these games.
Ms. Friesen: I thank the minister for his undertaking to look into this. I understand that he has essentially already looked into it once, and that the Pan Am Games committee had difficulty finding her application, in fact did not find it. Could the minister explain to me why a simple phone call at that point would not have solved all of this? When did that evaluation of the applications occur, and why did they not simply phone up the person? She is very clearly identified in Scott Taylor's article. It is a symbolic issue, as well as an issue of great concern to an individual who thought that she had a lot to offer to both her city and to her country. Could the minister explain to me why, at that point, a phone call was not made?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I cannot confirm here today for the member for Wolseley whether or not contact has been made with her at this particular point in time or not. I would expect it has, but possibly it has not. In a general sense, I would agree with her that, once that article surfaced, once the Pan Am Games went through whether or not they had an application on file--and I am told there were no applications, no record of any application on file and so on--I would agree with her that at that point in time based on this individual's contributions in the community, contributions to sport and the coverage that was given through the media, that a phone call would certainly be the most appropriate thing to do at that point in time.
I am not certain today, Mr. Chairman, whether or not any contact has been made with her but as I have said to the member for Wolseley, I will ensure that it is followed up on.
Ms. Friesen: I did speak to the household, not directly to the individual but to her household last night, and as of last night, in fact indeed as of this morning, no contact had been made. This is in spite of--this is not just an application which was sent by mail. This was an application which she actually delivered in person, sat down with an official and went over elements of the application, as I understand it, as I am told. So it seems to me there have been a number of opportunities. That is what is so puzzling is that there have been a number of opportunities from the public raising of it in May to the time when she went over the application with people individually, to the actual application itself, that this could have been raised. It seems to me it is not just one accident. This is a series of incidents which do not give people great confidence in at least the personnel aspect of the Pan Am Games.
We know what the dangers are out there. We have seen them in Atlanta with the transport issues and other issues of the training of volunteers. The personnel piece and--what do they call it--the venue piece are the ones in effect that can be prepared in advance and which we have to have confidence in. If people really are going to participate and to raise the number of volunteers, which I know the games are still interested in doing, we have to have confidence that it is going to be properly run, that Winnipeggers and Manitobans will be welcome, and that there is an administrative system in place which is in fact able to look after all of these issues. From this particular incident, that does not seem to be the case.
I know that Scott Taylor has talked to other people. There are quotations in his articles which I am sure have been brought to the minister's attention before; Mr. Wirth, I think, was one. Then of course there is the whole issue of the firing of Ernie Nairn who was only one of a series of local people who were fired in the communications department. There are quotations in here I believe from--I do not have the name right in front of me, but people who were fired in the communications department.
Communications is crucial. It is amazing to me that this kind of confusion, what seems to be arrogance in communications in the organization of the games, a disregard for people who want to help and who appear certainly to be qualified to play a role at some place in the games, whether it is Ernie Nairn or whether it is Susan Cushman. There are the incidents themselves, but it is also the level of confidence that Winnipeggers need to have, and Manitobans, I should say, need to have in the Pan Am Games. So it is a matter of very serious concern.
I think during the flood, Manitoba--and I am thinking particularly in Winnipeg, I am thinking of Channel 11, as simple as it was, enabled very good daily communications. In emergencies like that, people could do it. Are we going to be able to pull the same kind of thing together for the Pan Am Games? There is a great deal of experience in Manitoba in organizing events, venues, as well as communications. We, in fact, have a number of advertising firms. We have a number of people who are available and who have been very well trained and have a wide experience in communicating across Winnipeg and Manitoba. I think that is one of the points that was made about Ernie Nairn, that you have to have people who know who needs to be in the loop, and in Manitoba I think one of the points he was making is that a lot of people have to be in the loop.
It is something where you need to be very much aware of the social connections, I guess, particularly the political connections. It is a very small community in many ways, and people who are communicating need to be very much aware of those, and they need to be aware of the importance of involving and committing every section of the community.
So I am raising this on behalf of Ms. Cushman and indirectly on behalf of other people whom I believe--they certainly believe and it certainly appears to be the case of not being treated fairly. We are in the early stages. We are in the planning stages. We have to have confidence in this, and there are a number of places along the way where things could have been changed in this case and they were not. I mean, we have had a month since this was in the paper, and what has happened? No contact has been made as far as I know.
So I wonder if the minister could tell me what steps he is going to take, who he is going to speak to and when he will report back.
Mr. Stefanson: Well, first of all, even though the member brings these concerns to the House, I want to tell her it is my understanding and impression that these few examples are certainly the exception, and they are not the norm, that, as I have already indicated to her, there are some 170 staff. All but 14 are Manitobans, and even out of the 14, 10 of them are Canadians.
As of May 9 of this year, we had 11,716 volunteers. I believe as of today we are up over 12,000 volunteers. The same reporter that she referred to, Scott Taylor, I think on the heels of those two articles that she has briefly quoted from--I do not have it before me, but I know he wrote a somewhat complimentary article about the status of the games, certainly some of the challenges. I mean, it is a major undertaking. It is the third largest multisport event ever held in North America, a $140-million budget, obviously a major undertaking, but I think on an overall basis there will be all kinds of opportunities for Manitobans as employees, as volunteers, as suppliers.
But in terms of the very specifics, I will get back to the member very shortly, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being six o'clock, committee rise. Call in the Speaker.
Committee Changes
I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Transcona (Mr. Reid) for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak); Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway); St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) for Osborne (Ms. McGifford); St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), for the meeting to be held Monday, June 22, at 10 a.m.
Motion agreed to.
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Acting Government House Leader): I wish to clarify that the meeting of the Law Amendments committee called for Monday, June 22, at 7:30 p.m., was announced as being required if necessary. I wish to clarify on the record that the meeting will be required for the consideration of Bill 35 and other bills not completed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable minister for that.
The hour now being after six o'clock, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until Monday, 1:30 p.m.