Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed. The floor is now open for questions.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Yesterday, just before we left off, I think I had asked the minister a few questions regarding private detectives, and I promised to get back to her as to where they were registered. My assistant checked it. It is with the Justice department, the Law Enforcement Services branch. So they register and set rules and regulations for security companies and private investigators. So I guess any questions I have in that area I would have to hold on to for Justice department Estimates.

Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I am just trying to find my note to answer a question that the member had left with me. I put it on a sticky and it seems to have fallen off, but it had to do with the legislation regarding amendments to the insurance act, and, yes, the legislation did go through. It went through March 12, I think my note said, and did come into force. This had to do with your questions regarding whether or not heads of companies were going to reap many benefits. I think I had mentioned to you that, no, there was a regime put into place, and certain elements of the regime, one of them was that management was prohibited from benefiting from the company's demutualization proposal. So I just wanted to advise the member of that, but, as I say, I cannot find my note with the bill number.

We can get it for you in half a second here. Yes, here it is. Just for the member's information, it is the federal Bill C-59, an Act to amend the Insurance Companies Act. It was passed and came into force on March 12, 1999, along with related regulations.

Mr. Maloway: If the minister has any fact sheets that would indicate what exactly the regulations are, any kind of a summary of the regulations and the legislation, if she could provide me with a copy, I would be most appreciative.

Mrs. Render: Yes, what we will do is we will provide you with the package that we have. I believe it is the press release with the related information.

* (1440)

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask a few questions concerning the telephone scams that seem to never go away and with reference to project phone busters. I would like an update as to whether this activity is increasing, whether it is decreasing, whether we are getting a handle on the problem, how big the problem is right now, just generally an update as to what the situation is regarding the telephone scams.

Mrs. Render: I guess scams have been around from the start of time and will continue to be around, whether it is deceptive telemarketing and mail scams or the scratch-and-win kind of promotions that continue to plague Canadian consumers according to recent phone busters statistics, but, interestingly enough, Manitoba has experienced the greatest decrease in the number of victims who fall prey to these scams.

I guess I will just finish off by saying that the Consumers' Bureau regularly receives inquiries from consumers who are suspicious about calls or promotional mail, but it appears that consumers are, on the whole, alert to the fact that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, on page 10 of the annual report of the department, a reference is made to renovation scams regarding the flood, and I believe at the time the minister of the department evidently distributed an information package to flood victims warning about types of consumer scams.

I do remember that at that time and, in fact, even now, because the economy is doing reasonably well and the tradesmen are quite busy, unlike times when the economy is in a downturn, and you can phone a tradesperson or company in the renovation business and show some interest, and they will be at your door in minutes very eager for your business. But when the economy is fairly decent, it is very difficult to find tradespeople because they have a lot of work.

So I know that with situations like the flood, with the sewer backups in 1993 and other natural disaster situations one sees an influx of people from other provinces, a lot of fly-by-night companies hoping to scoop up a lot of business, and oftentimes what happens is that a company might have a good salesperson working for them who will sign up a lot of jobs, but the work people are not able to take care of all of the jobs, so the result is they end up juggling several jobs and no one is really happy because of that happening.

So what I would like to know is what happened during the flood, the aftermath of the flood, and how did this information package and the whole situation revolving around these scams, how did it develop in the period after the flood?

Mrs. Render: I thought I had a briefing note on this and I cannot seem to find it, but if my memory is correct, and I am sure that my staff here will correct me if I am wrong, there was a special committee set up just for flood victims, for their purpose, and, as it turned out, the committee was not needed. There were no problems, so the bureau had jumped in perhaps before need, and, as it turned out, there was no need.

Now, speaking on a more general basis, in 1998-99 home renovation complaints continue to decline. It was a slight decline, but it was a decline nevertheless. There were no major scams as seen in previous years. Last summer, a small group of individuals from out of province were successful in scamming a few rural residences and businesses, but because of the swift response by bureau investigators working closely with the RCMP, those individuals very quickly left the province. I guess it would be correct to say that as a result fewer numbers of individuals were scammed, and a file is still open on these people should they ever return to the province.

Mr. Maloway: The minister is saying that in the aftermath of the flood that her department received absolutely no cases at all of scams arising out of flood repair work. If that is the case, that is pretty amazing.

Mrs. Render: Yes, the member is correct, we received no cases. Actually, on page 18 of the report, it actually addresses this very question: To address potential issues encountered by flood victims in the spring of 1997, the Consumers' Bureau took the lead in organizing a special investigation unit which included provincial and federal officials from a number of departments as well as representatives of enforcement agencies. The purpose of this special investigation unit was to deal with unfair business practices or fraudulent activities which might further victimize those homeowners who required repairs to their property following the flood. This proactive approach contributed to the lack of complaints received by the bureau about flood-related repairs and construction. The special investigation unit will continue to be available to flood victims in '98-99 should problems with home repairs be identified.

Mr. Maloway: Can the minister tell me where in the annual report will we find the list of the grants that the department gives out? Traditionally, the department has given out two or three grants every year, one to the Consumers' Association, another two, I believe, to the Community Income Tax Service. I am just not sure what the level of grants activity is this past year with the department.

Mrs. Render: To my knowledge, it is not in the annual report. I believe it is in the Estimates booklet. Just to follow that up, it is actually on page 28 of the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. Maloway: So the grants that were given then last year I assume are the same? The grants have not increased year over year?

Mrs. Render: The member is correct.

* (1450)

Mr. Maloway: Does the minister have a way of determining whether the government is getting value for the grant monies given? For example, in the case of the Consumers' Association, the grant that is provided there, is there any accountability whereby the Consumers' Association submits documentation as to what the grant money is being used for?

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, yes, I am advised that they are very accountable. They meet with either the deputy or the minister at least once a year, go over the proposed budget. The department also receives copies of their newsletter which is put out on a regular basis, and either the deputy or the minister attend the annual meeting. If my memory is correct, I just finished seeing in this last little while a copy of the latest handbook put out by the–[interjection] I am mistaken about the handbook that I am thinking about, but, yes, I believe the department feels that the grant money is used appropriately.

Mr. Maloway: We get periodic complaints about the high price of food in northern Manitoba, and I wonder if the minister's department has done any recent studies about this problem; well, whether she has any studies about it, whether she has any observations about it and whether she has any plans or solutions to the problem.

Mrs. Render: I am advised that this department does not look into food prices. The area that does is the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics which I think falls under I, T and T.

Mr. Maloway: I wonder if the minister then would show some initiative here and ask the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics to compile data on food prices in northern Manitoba.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, I can certainly ask the bureau to provide me with this kind of information.

Mr. Maloway: Page 22 of the annual report talks about a plain language program. I remember when I first got here in '86. Marty Dolin was MLA at that time for Kildonan. One of Marty's major initiatives and drives was to try to translate the laws into English. He was convinced that the public and the consumer were at a disadvantage in dealing with lawyers and governments and just the bureaucracy in general. He felt that, wherever possible–I know that he would bring this matter up in caucus periodically–he wanted to translate all the laws into English. While it had a humorous side to it, the point was that it was well taken, because certainly that has been an ongoing problem. It has certainly provided work for lawyers, more work, and lawyers do have I believe enough work as it is without having more.

Now, over the years I know that the insurance industry has tried to translate its policies, at least included an easy-to-read version. I do not know how well that has worked out, because I have heard conflicting reports on it, that, in fact, it sometimes leaves the consumer more unclear, and that, in fact, the true legal wording is the best way to proceed. But the complaints I think are not great in number. I think most people appreciate the translated English version of the policy documents.

So I would ask the minister just to give us an update as to how this program of hers is working, this effort to develop a more plain-language approach to help consumers.

Mrs. Render: Yes, I very strongly agree with the whole effort for plain language. I think plain language is also needed among some of our own MLAs.

However, on a more serious note, I am advised that consumer education is responsible for co-ordinating a department-wide plain language program. I believe Marjorie Simpson, who is sitting right next to me, is really the lead person for working with each of the branches within the department. Each branch each year does pick something to focus on and bring about a change to try to reach the goal of a plain language.

For instance, the Residential Tenancies Branch has taken a look at its procedures manual, which is used by consumers out there, just looking at it and trying to make sure that it is written in plain language. But I guess, on a more general basis, the department has worked very hard to make sure that things like forms and form letters are put into plain language. Staff have been trained to write in plain language, so really it is an ongoing thing within this department and as I say, initiatives are brought up each year so that the idea does not lapse, that each year each branch does tackle one area.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to proceed now to the Research and Planning department and deal with a couple of issues in that area that may, in fact, take up the rest of the day. I want to deal with, in no particular order here, gas prices, I want to deal with the lemon law, and at some point we are going to have to look at the PUB. I do not know when the PUB can be arranged.

Mrs. Render: Could I just clarify, may Marjorie Simpson go, or will she be back this afternoon?

* (1500)

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to begin questioning in the Research and Planning area and ask the minister how up to date her information is as to the price of gasoline in the city of Winnipeg. My question is does the minister have the latest gas price survey for Winnipeg, and how recent is it?

Mrs. Render: To my knowledge, the gas price is 56.5 today.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, just before committee today, I had staff check several locations in Winnipeg at random. What we determined was that Petro Can at 729 Henderson Highway, the price for regular unleaded was 56.5. We checked Shell on Notre Dame. That is halfway across the city, and it was 56.5. We checked Esso on Sturgeon Road. That is quite a bit away, and it was 56.5. We checked Co-op on Logan and Keewatin, and guess what? It was 56.5. We checked Mohawk on Pembina, and you guessed it, 56.5. So what we have here is a variety of companies, we have a variety of locations across the city, and we have identical pricing. Now, what does that tell you?

I might elaborate a little further in terms of competition, because the minister defends the big oil companies and the gasoline business and this government defends them consistently over the years as being competitive. I want to ask her where is the competition here?

Mrs. Render: I am not too sure what previous ministers have said. I am not defending or condoning the oil companies at all. I guess what I would say is that I think most people see the oil companies as the bad guy. They look at the price of crude and figure that if crude is going up or going down–well, let us say if crude is going down, then that must automatically mean that the price of gas must go down. I think most people do not stop to think that crude makes up roughly only about 25 percent of the price of gas, that there are other things that impinge upon the price of gas at the pump.

The cost of crude, as I say, is roughly 25 percent. Taxes come close to 50 percent. Here in Manitoba, we have a 11.5 percent tax. Then there is the federal tax, 10; GST at 7 percent. This city is fortunate that we do not have a municipal tax. There are other costs: refinery, marketing and distribution. Local factors play a cost, so I think it would be wrong to look at the price of crude; in other words, just pointing a finger specifically at the oil companies for the price that we pay at the gas pump.

The member asked about competition. I think it is the nature of the beast whether we are talking about the price of crude or the price of the refined product, in this instance, gas. It is like many things, whether we are talking about, say, bread, where if one outlet drops the price, virtually every other outlet will drop the price. Indicators: I think probably back in Economics 101, indicators of a competitive market, very briefly, it can be put in very simple terms, are that you have to have fluctuating prices. That is certainly the story with gas.

Competition: Another indicator of competition is a diversity of retail brands. We do have a diversity. Another indicator is openly posted prices. There is not too many other things on sale that have their prices posted in big high letters.

That is not to say that I, myself, like paying a high price. I am a consumer so I am not any happier than the member is if the price of gas goes up, but I think we have to be careful about simply pointing a finger at one particular source as the cause of our agony over having to dig deeper into our pocketbook.

* (1510)

Mr. Maloway: So does the minister agree then that there is competition in the retail gasoline field in Manitoba and in Winnipeg?

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, yes, there is competition, although I know exactly what the member is getting at. I guess the problem is the fact that what one does, quite often the other does, so it looks as if there is no competition. However, there is evidence of competition. I am sure the member knows that some stations offer coupons and other lures to come in to fill up at that particular station. There is at least one, if not more than one, retailer who very regularly drops the price at the pump each Saturday, or Saturday and Sunday, to bring customers to his pump. So, yes, there is competition.

Mr. Maloway: Then what is the minister's observation about her predecessor, Mr. Ernst's comments, then, that the retail gasoline industry in Winnipeg and Manitoba operates as a cartel? Those are the words he used when he wrote a letter to the federal minister asking for an inquiry into price fixing in the gasoline business.

Mrs. Render: Well, not having seen the letter, I cannot comment. I can advise the member that over the years I think consumers in all cities have asked the question, are we getting ripped off? I suspect that virtually every minister–I know that not all provinces have ministers of Consumer Affairs but whatever minister looks into this kind of thing, there have been innumerable government inquiries over the past 20 years.

Most recently, the federal government, Industry Canada, I believe it was, the Competition Bureau has conducted a number of studies in the 1990s, as well as various provincial governments have conducted studies, British Columbia, for one, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, just off the top of my head, and those studies showed no signs of collusion, no evidence suggesting that there is a national or a regional conspiracy to limit competition.

I think that any of us who have been reading the financial pages over the last year or so have certainly seen a lot of articles talking about misery in the oil patch.

Mr. Maloway: That is absolute nonsense. The fact of the matter is that Minister Ernst knew it well, that if you go out and talk to anybody who works in a gas station–and I have had occasion to do it, and they have told me exactly how it works, that they get a phone call. It is done over the phone, from head office. It does not matter what company it is, and they are told to raise the price, raise the price or lower the price, and they do this in concert. So, you know, in any other industry this would be viewed as collusion and price fixing and would be actionable.

Let me give you some examples. Certainly in the travel business at different conventions, I believe even the ACTA conventions, I can recall more than once the speaker being cautioned to let us not go any further in this discussion because somebody might be in the audience with a tape recorder and might misconstrue the comments as advocating collusion and violate the price-fixing laws. Also, in the travel business, I know of cases where people have talked to other agencies about getting together and setting a price and being very careful about doing it because they are worried about what the federal government might think if they were to find out.

I believe in the insurance business that companies can get together, representatives of the companies get together informally in certain unnamed locations downtown in Winnipeg here for a little discussion, a little managers' meeting. They talk about rates and stuff like that, areas of common concern, but nothing would be put in writing about this because it may violate competition laws.

So, clearly, this issue certainly has been studied to death, there is no doubt about it, but perhaps some of the laws need changing. For example, for many years in the United States the government was unable to get a handle on organized crime, and it was not until about 10 years ago, when the Americans passed the RICO laws basically where it was allowed that being part of a criminal conspiracy allowed the authorities to take action and put these people in jail, that they were, in fact, successful.

The result is these RICO laws have proven so successful that, in fact, a big chunk of the American mob are behind bars right now, and this is happening right here in our own province where now we have new federal legislation, and guess what? We have members of the Manitoba Warriors now behind bars awaiting trial. We now have massage parlour operators as of yesterday. What do you think they are being rounded up under? These new laws which deal with criminal conspiracy.

So, clearly, the law that currently stands has allowed successive governments and successive studies in gas pricing to say, in a very narrow technical way, that the companies are not price fixing even though we all know they are. So, clearly, some legislative amendments are probably in order to deal with this issue, but, first of all, I think, you have to recognize the problem, and Minister Ernst did. Now, I guess it did not get him anywhere ultimately. He is not here anymore, but I have to admit that out of all of the different ministers that I have seen in this department over the years, on this one issue, in my opinion, he was dead on in his analysis. While he did not, ultimately, do anything, he at least sent a couple of letters to Ottawa clearly outlining the problem, and he called it what it was. He said it is price fixing, pure and simple.

I invite the minister to look through his files, and certainly your Research and Planning staff must have copies of these letters. But no other minister other than Minister Ernst did make any, I believe, honest effort to pursue this issue. I would like to know what the minister's comments would be on Minister Ernst's efforts.

* (1520)

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, well, that is perhaps a moot question whether the Competition Act needs to be changed. I am not too sure whether the member knows that there was a conviction against a major oil company within the last decade, a company that was trying to dictate price to an independent retailer. Now again, I think it depends whether the retailer–there are various ways to get your gas, whether it is a franchise operation, whether you are independent or not. Certainly if you are an independent retailer, then the big companies have no right to make the phone call and tell that individual what to set his price. If the member opposite has proof, then I think he has an obligation to either bring it to this department and we will forward it on or he can alert the Competition Bureau under Industry Canada.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, the member knows full well that what happens in a case like that is the whistle-blower ends up getting fired and nothing happens at the end of the day. That is what happens. In fact, I have run into a number of cases where people have–and I am not talking about people who are currently working in the business necessarily either, although there are a number of those. We are talking about people who have retired. I have talked to several franchisees who were retired from the business. They have told me how it works, and it is consistent. Each and every time it is consistent. Nobody has a different story here. It is the same story every time. So you cannot tell me that the Competition Bureau and this government and this minister do not know that price fixing is occurring.

But just to point to examples of where the federal government has looked into the problem and saying, well, we cannot do anything because under the narrow law that is there right now they are judged to be not price fixing when, in fact, they move their prices in concert constantly up and down is no excuse here. The minister should be making representations at her ministerial meetings, and the government should be making an issue of this travesty that has been occurring in this province and this country for many years.

But what do we see? We see basically indifference on the part of the minister, indifference on the part of the government, basically just worshipping the free market. That does not make sense to me, particularly from a government in a province where we do not have a lot of oil resources. I mean, I could understand it coming from the Alberta government, because in their case it would certainly be self-interest, but certainly not the Manitoba government.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, I was going to let the member opposite finish his comments, but I guess I cannot let his comment that I am indifferent slide by without making a comment.

I take exception to the remark. I am a consumer. I do not want the price of gas to go up any more than he does. I would say that within days of my being appointed minister, I took the step to immediately call all the heads of each of the major companies to come in and visit me. So, as I say, very shortly after I was appointed minister, I met with representatives from the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute, Petro Canada, Esso, Shell. I also talked to Professor Costas Nicolaou. So "indifferent" is not a word to apply to me. As I said, and I will say it again, like everyone else in this room, and I suspect in the city, I do not want to pay any higher a price than anyone else. So I would just put that comment on the record.

I would also like to say that there is a major study that will be undertaken by the federal government on this very issue. It will likely be up and running by the fall. It will be a steady, long-term study, long term in that it probably will take a year to complete. The province will be having input, as will all provinces to my knowledge have input to this study, because it is a question, as the member has recognized and as I certainly recognize, that comes up every single year. It sort of resurfaces every time there is a long holiday weekend coming up because I think consumers sort of anticipate that the price of gas may go up with the first spring holiday weekend and once the summer starts.

So, as I say, this is a concern. I think every single government, and it does not matter what stripe of government–I remind the member opposite that it was his government that initiated a study that asked one Professor Costas Nicolaou to study this. The professor brought in a study, and nothing was done with the study. So, again, I just want to put that information on the record.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, does the minister believe that price fixing does occur in Manitoba in the retail gasoline business?

Mrs. Render: I guess I would have to say that it is a hypothetical question.

Mr. Maloway: It is not meant to be hypothetical. I mean, the minister can have her own opinions. I am not asking her right now for the opinion of her caucus or her government or her research staff or anyone else. I just ask for her opinion.

In the case of Minister Ernst, he came at it with the approach that there was price fixing. Other people perhaps–and I do not want to suggest that Minister Radcliffe did not, but my guess, having talked to him, was that he actually did not believe there was price fixing, but he was prepared to do some studying of the issue.

That is really what I am asking. Do you come at the issue believing that there is price fixing and that you do or do not want to do something about it, or do you come at the issue believing there is not any price fixing and you will or you will not do something about it? I just want to know, do you believe there is?

Mrs. Render: I will simply answer that question by saying that once I see the results of this study, I am certainly prepared to look at it. Once again, I will repeat that I want to make sure that the prices that are at the pump are fair prices and fair to everyone. I had somebody rap my knuckles when we were discussing this on a very casual, social kind of occasion, and he reminded me that for every person who complained about the price at the pump, that individual, either through RRSPs or mutual funds or something, probably was some sort of a shareholder of the oil companies, and oil companies do have an obligation to their shareholders.

So, as I say, I need to look at the evidence. I am not about to say one thing or the other just on emotion. As I say, like most of us, if the price at the pump goes up, my emotions kick in rather than my brain, and I want to point a finger and say the blame is all in one particular direction.

I need to see more facts, and I will be most interested in seeing the results of the federal study. Again, I am repeating myself. This is a question that comes up constantly. The federal government is doing something about it, and we are participating in this study.

* (1530)

Mr. Maloway: Well, I will take that as an admission that you do not believe that there is price fixing but that you might be open to change when you see some better evidence.

Mrs. Render: Well, again I take exception to the member opposite. He is putting words into my mouth. I am simply open to look at the facts. I am not prepared to make a comment when I do not have all of the facts in front of me.

Mr. Maloway: I am interested in some of the studies that Minister Radcliffe before he left announced I believe last fall, basically just an attempt I think to buy some time because that is convenient. It gets you over the bad periods, gets you over the humps. Oh, well, we will study it. Then when nothing happens, you study it some more.

I would like to know where are his studies? Where are Minister Radcliffe's studies on this gasoline issue that he promised last fall? Where are they?

Mrs. Render: I think the word "study" has been taken out of comment. I believe the previous minister simply said that he would look into it. The word "study" to me gives the implication that there is going to be a nice fat report. That was not the intention of the previous minister at all. My understanding was that the department was going to check into prices. I can certainly give the member some copies of our prices, but it was not a study in the sense that there is a bound report that I can give to the member.

Mr. Maloway: We could certainly dig up our information on this, but Minister Radcliffe gave the media and us the impression and the public the impression that a major study was underway and that there would be results forthcoming, and that there would be a report that we could get our hands on. Now the minister is saying that Minister Radcliffe misled the press, the public, and that really there was no study planned at all.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, again I would caution the member for perhaps using incorrect words. The previous minister I do not believe misled the public. He said that he would look into it. Other people picked up and used the word "study."

Mr. Maloway: Well, it is too bad the former minister is not here to answer for himself, because I can assure you that he went out of his way to tell reporters, to tell the public that he was conducting an honest-to-goodness study that was going to result in action. In no way was he suggesting that this was just going to be some monitoring, as Minister Connery used to do, or some price checking, as is being suggested right now.

That is absolutely not true. He conveyed the impression that that was action going to happen here, that he was conducting a study and that that study would be available. So for the minister to say that did not exist right now certainly casts Minister Radcliffe's role in a big cloud.

Mrs. Render: Again, I sometimes believe that other people, whether it is a minister or an MLA or anybody's word, takes it out of context and perhaps inflates something. I do not know exactly what words the previous minister said. If the member opposite can actually show me something in Hansard that the previous minister stated, I would be happy to look at it, but I know from experience that sometimes a word that one individual uses, another individual takes that same word but translates it into another word and all of a sudden the meaning has been subtly changed. The previous minister had no intention of leading anybody astray or misleading anyone. He said that he was gong to look into it, and the department has done some tracking.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to again ask the minister then if she would release the studies that Minister Radcliffe indicated that were ongoing at the time and would be released shortly?

Mrs. Render: I wonder if the member would clarify what he means by "release what was ongoing." What was happening then?

Mr. Maloway: Minister Radcliffe told the press and told the public that he was studying the business of high gas prices and that he was going to be presenting a report on the subject with the intention of taking action, and his time frame for this was some time last fall. He did this on a couple of occasions. Had I known that there would be some dispute on this point, I would have had the press releases pulled and the information pulled, and I would have had it here right now.

I assumed that I would come here and that I would get the reports presented, they would be ready by now, and we would have copies of these reports just simply by asking the question. If it means that we have to come back another day, I am certain that will not be a problem with us or with the minister and her department, but I would like to get this matter clarified as to how far Minister Radcliffe intended to go. Because if the minister is saying that he was simply doing nothing more than blowing smoke, then that reflects badly on him, and I do not think he meant that at all. I think he was fairly honourable and honest about his intentions. I know that he saw things differently than Minister Ernst in the sense that Minister Ernst said there is price fixing going on. I want Ottawa to do something about it, and I am prepared to fire off some letters in support of my contention, my belief that price fixing is occurring.

Minister Radcliffe was somewhat more free market and somewhat less inclined to believe that price fixing was occurring, but he was prepared to do the studies necessary to determine what sort of course of action he should take. If he had no intention of doing or presenting anything or following through, then why would he make these suggestions to the press and the public? The department has to have something. He has to have ordered something to be done and the results have to be there.

Mrs. Render: Again, I think the member will acknowledge that quite often what is reported in the media is not exactly what has always been said. My understanding was that the previous minister asked the department to look at the cost of crude and look at the cost of gas. He was asking the department for advice, looking for advice as to what should be done.

When you look at these things, you do not necessarily get a bound report. This takes time; it takes money. I happened to be appointed at the beginning of February. I stepped in at that moment. I believe the previous minister's next step was to meet with members of the industry and that is exactly what I did. Just because the newspapers reported a study and gave the implication that there was going to be a study with lots of paper and some kind of a visible report that could be handed out, that was not my understanding when I came on. So I take exception that somehow or other the previous minister was blowing smoke and mirrors. That is not correct.

Mr. Maloway: If that is the case that he did not produce a study like he said he was going to, then even if he has just little sticky notes on the subject, could the minister release copies of these sticky notes or whatever he could have done in his last months as minister? Can we see some evidence that he was doing something about gas prices? Surely there has to be at least one piece of paper available on the subject.

* (1540)

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, I am advised that there was an oral briefing given to the previous minister, but the department had not finished looking into things. So whether or not the previous minister had any pieces of paper, any stickies, I am certainly not aware of them.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, this whole process then really leaves a sad reflection on the former minister's last days in office, if that is the case, because he gave the impression that he was going to do something and conduct some studies, and he obviously did not do it.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, the previous minister said that he would look into the matter and he was looking into the matter. He did not complete things because there was a change. I think the member also has to remember that ministers have a multitude of things on their agenda, and it is not just a one-issue department. As I say, I came in practically in the middle of it and picked up where he left off, so for the member to imply that the previous member did not do anything is unfair. As I say, the inquiry into it was not complete when there was a change in ministers.

Mr. Maloway: Will the minister now undertake to conduct a proper study to attempt to determine whether price fixing is occurring in Manitoba?

Mrs. Render: I believe the member asked me if I would look into price fixing. Was that his question?

Mr. Maloway: Yes.

Mrs. Render: And, again, I would say that that is not something that this department is doing. The federal government is going to do a study, and I would suggest that we wait for the federal government to conduct the study. We do not regulate the price of gas. This, as I say, will be done right across the country by the federal government. They will be studying this issue.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, could the minister inform the committee then as to when precisely this committee will be hearing? Is it hearings in Ottawa? Will they be travelling around the country? What is the composition of the committee? Who is invited to make representations? What is its time line for reports? What date will its report be available, and what is the potential or options for action once the report is complete?

Mrs. Render: I believe that the study does not get underway until September, and it will take approximately a year. The terms if the study are being developed right now.

Mr. Maloway: Fine. So there is the minister's opening then, to get the research department busy and develop some terms of reference that can be presented to this committee as a suggestion to them as to how they should proceed. I have no interest; I do not think the consumers of Manitoba have any interest in another whitewash study to get politicians of any level off the hook, whether it is the provincial minister who is facing an imminent election or whether it is the federal government that is facing an election. Tell me now, what is the point of spending thousands and thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money on yet another useless study into this problem, given that there have been literally dozens of studies over the years, when, in fact, what appears to be the solution is probably toughening up the Competitions Act and making it tougher. I got into that a few minutes ago about how the RICO laws in the United States changed things when it came to organized crime, so perhaps that is part of the solution, so has the minister determined that this study has any hope of accomplishing anything?

Mrs. Render: I think perhaps the member has said two different things here. He wants me to do a study, but on the other hand he is asking the question as to whether a federal study would accomplish anything.

First of all, I do want to clarify that it is my understanding that the federal study is not looking into price fixing. That is an offence under the Competitions Act. What the study is looking at is the whole industry and how it works. It will be looking at the structure, why different locations have different prices. So, as I say, I just do not want to lead the member astray, and there may be comments coming out on that particular aspect, but the study has not been set up nor designed to look at price fixing. They are looking, as I say, at the whole industry and how it works.

And, yes, I would hope that this study will accomplish something. As I have said, certainly the industry has heard from me. I have met with the industry. They know that I was extremely unhappy with the price of gas. We are in contact with the industry. I suspect that the oil companies have received many phone calls. I would hope that the study by the federal government is going to be asking some very hard questions and, hopefully, when the member and I meet again in another year, I might be able to provide him with some more details, although I think the study will take a year so. The member and I may have to meet in two years time.

Mr. Maloway: On the surface of it, it sounds like another whitewash to me because, if the fundamental problem is price fixing and the federal government is going to have a study that does not include price fixing, then where is the hope that anything good will be accomplished out of this? Where is the provincial government, as a component part of this country, where is its voice in making representations to the federal study to try to change the course of the federal study before it gets underway?

Clearly and surely the minister would see some value in making representations to the federal people at this early stage and say that, you know, if you want our co-operation and our involvement in this study, we demand that you look at price fixing, that it be included as a component in the study.

Otherwise, what is the point of doing the study? What are we trying to accomplish by the study? I think we are trying to find out, is there price fixing or is there not price fixing? That is what we are trying to find out. You are saying the study is not even going to deal with the issue.

Mrs. Render: If there is price fixing, that would be determined by another area of government. Those complaints should go to that particular area of government. That particular area of government has done a number of studies.

I guess perhaps a question that has not been asked, an assumption has been made, and I do not know whether or not the assumption is correct. This is why I was not prepared to give an answer to the member earlier. We do not know that the problem of high gas prices is because of price fixing. What happens if the price drops and everyone has a low price? Is that a problem? I think the member is perhaps not totally correct when he said, if you do not look at price fixing, what is the point of the study?

I think you have to look at the whole structure because, as I say, if the price drops and everybody has a low price, there are going to be no complaints. It is not a matter of the price, it is a matter, is the price a proper price or is the consumer being taken advantage of?

* (1550)

Mr. Maloway: Would the minister endeavour to provide us with the terms of reference of the committee so that we can see what this committee is attempting to do? We have had no indication from the minister as to what this committee is going to do. All we know is that it is not going to look at price fixing. Well, if it is not going to look at price fixing, then what is it going to look at?

Mrs. Render: Yes, in answer to your question, we would be happy to provide you with that kind of information as soon as we receive it. I do not see any reason why we could not.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, it would be I think our suggestion to the minister that when she gets these terms of reference and when the department looks at it that they attempt to make some sort of a conclusion as to how valuable the study will be, and that if they feel that it needs some strengthening that they, in fact, take the initiative and suggest that it be expanded to include price fixing and/or any other section.

I do not buy the argument that only the Competition Bureau can look at price fixing, because they are looking at it from the narrow point of view that the current legislation covers. Perhaps this committee that is looking at it right now is taking the broader view and, in fact, may be looking at the advisability of changing the Competition Act and the competition legislation. So maybe that is where we have to look at addressing the problem. If that is part of the terms of reference of the committee, then that might be a credible way of proceeding, as well. So I am concerned that when the minister gets the terms of reference that her department take a look at how they might improve the terms of reference for this committee.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, yes, I take the member's comments as he has made some very valid points.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, regarding studies closer to home, I wonder if the minister has thought about updating the study that was done by Dr. Nicolaou in, I believe, 1987, a time, by the way, at which while correctly she points out that a previous government was in office, the fact of the matter is that the report really did not come out until the dying days of the government, and, in fact, there was really not an opportunity to act on the report. So while technically she is correct that we did commission the report and technically she is correct that we did not act on the recommendations of the report, the truth of the matter is that there was not really a lot of time between the time that her government took over and our government left.

So with that in mind, given the report is now 12 years old, I wonder if the minister has looked at some of the recommendations of the Costas Nicolaou report, and since she has met with the author of the report, whether she could tell whether any representations have been made by the author to her to provide an updated report or whether she has considered updating the report.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the report did come out in 1986, not in the dying days. I guess Professor Nicolaou himself has said that it is not updated, and a lot of his own figures are not valid anymore. In answer to the question would I update it, I guess, there is a philosophical question here as to whether or not it should be updated.

I guess the philosophical question is does this government believe in regulating the price of gas, because essentially that is what Professor Nicolaou's model does. Even though he is on record and said to me that he does not believe in regulation of gas, in essence, that is exactly what his model does do. It is a very interesting report, very interesting in theory, but sometimes theory does not work out in practice.

For instance, when we talked about the government-owned stations and the fact that government would set the price of gas at these particular stations, we asked whether it would occur only in Winnipeg or right across the province, and Professor Nicolaou said only Winnipeg, so right there we have a problem. What happens to northern communities? Do they pay a different price, perhaps a higher price? That was not part and parcel of his report. There were a number of things in the report that I do not know that this particular government would agree with. First of all, you have to have a capital investment. Somebody has got to build those stations. I do not know what that capital investment would be, $5 million, $7 million. Are these simple gas stations, are they open 24 hours a day? Professor Nicolaou suggested that the gas stations would only be up and running for as long as it took to get the big guys to drop their prices.

Who is going to want to come in and put down money to operate a gas station that might run only three weeks at a time before they were out of business? How would you ever operate a viable business in that manner? There were a lot of questions that I asked that were not answered. Professor Nicolaou said that he did not want to put the big companies out of business, yet his model talked about a proper price. So I come back again to that question of regulation. In essence, a proper price is a form of regulation, a form of price control. He talked about governments setting an acceptable margin. His margin in 1986 was 5 cents a litre.

Well, as it turns out, Winnipeg has one of the highest operating margins across the country, and there are many local factors that have to be taken into consideration. As the member well knows, we do not have any refineries here in Manitoba, so we have transportation costs. But, again, getting back to his concept of these government-owned gas stations, somebody has to come up with the capital to build them. That somebody is government. So is the member suggesting that the government take money from another department, say such as Health? But, as I say, somebody has got to come up with that money. Who is going to run them? That businessman out there is not going to come up with the capital to build them, and what businessman is going to run an operation that might only run for a few weeks before it was going to be shut down?

* (1600)

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, my question to the minister actually was did Dr. Nicolaou, Professor Nicolaou, offer to update the study, or did the minister offer the professor the opportunity to update the study?

Mrs. Render: Yes, Mr. Chair, if our memory is correct, the professor did say that he would be happy to do further work but that implies a cost. As I say, he did acknowledge that his numbers were out of date and there were certainly changes since he had done the study.

Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for the answer. That was what I was interested in knowing. I recognize what the minister says about some of the conclusions and recommendations of the study as being largely impractical. When asked, I have never said that we should be getting into the gasoline business and so on. I have taken a different approach to it and suggested that we look at bringing gasoline in through different sources and that is through the Port of Churchill.

Right now the problem that you really face here is that you do not solve it by, I do not believe anyway, playing around with the markup in retail gasoline. It is a very good exercise to set up gas co-ops. Thompson has a very successful gas co-op. I gas up there regularly when I am in Thompson. In Brandon they attempted a gas co-op there a number of years ago. There are a number up North and where practicable that is a very good solution.

I think the department should be encouraging co-op gas bars wherever possible, but you have to understand that what you are dealing with when you are dealing with a co-op gas bar or a retail gas station is you are dealing with the markup. That is all you are dealing with. You are dealing with the possibility that one station can reduce its price over another and cut into its operating revenues and cut into its profits. Ultimately, that does not solve your problem.

The only way to solve your problem is follow the trail back to the source of the gasoline. Unless you are prepared to drill for oil in Manitoba or have some big discoveries here for oil, or unless you are prepared to buy some oil wells in Alberta or buy a refinery, and you would have to take action at all those levels, you would have to have some oil wells and a refinery, then you could really solve the problem. In the absence of doing that, because I do not detect this government or any government will be willing to do that, then one has to look for an alternative distribution system.

Since the pipelines and the refineries are all controlled by a couple of companies, the only solution is to look for another way of bringing the gasoline in. So either you do that from the south or you do that from the north, and we have looked at the southern possibilities. The minister will know that during the Gulf War in 1991, an independent entrepreneur brought in tankers full of gasoline and sold them through a station on Pembina Highway and undercut the price, and it could only do that because the price of gasoline was cheaper in the United States, through the pipeline in the United States, but that is not always a reliable way of doing it.

So the other solution if you cannot go east or west, and south is not that reliable, then let us look north. When you look north, you find the Port of Churchill. You find a railway that has now been privatized and is run by Denver-based OmniTRAX. It is looking for opportunities. The Port of Churchill needs development, needs business and there is a huge tank farm up in Churchill. In fact, the minister should know that at the current time, that tank farm is used every year. That tank farm is used for storage of gasoline that is brought in, stored there and taken–where?–not south but taken north. So Churchill Tank Farm is supplying northern communities, I believe, Rankin Inlet and other places north.

All I have said is why not look at the possibility of diverting some of that product and bringing it south. You have a railway link, OmniTRAX is prepared to do business, and why could they not be taking grain products up to load them on ships and bring gasoline back down? The concept is really nothing short of trying to flood the Manitoba market in an effort to drive down prices. So if you could establish a reliable source and a reliable route through the Port of Churchill, you would increase the Manitoba activities, jobs and economic growth up north. You would put a lot of pressure on the refineries and the whole petroleum chain that currently exists right now, and that to me would be the most painless way of approaching the problem.

I would like to know what studies the minister has done, this planning department has done, in this whole area because I have asked that this be done over two years ago now. I think it will be three years this August when we wrote letters to OmniTRAX. We wrote letters to the minister. We said let us look at this as an alternative because price regulation of gasoline has not been proven to be effective in other provinces where it has been tried in the Maritimes.

Government buying gas stations does not necessarily sound like the most brilliant idea to come across the table, and other suggestions. Gasoline co-ops I have already said are excellent ideas, but they do not ultimately solve your problem, because all you are doing is dealing with the retail price and not the wholesale price of the product. Why cannot we look at this as almost an economic development sort of initiative, and why do we not have some studies to show that this is feasible or not feasible?

I have been up in Churchill. I have met with the mayor several times now. The mayor thinks it is a wonderful idea, and I guess he would. If I was the mayor of Churchill, I would think that too. As an MLA, I think it is a wonderful idea, as well, but I am waiting for somebody to show me why this is not a good idea. Even Costas Nicolaou agrees it is a terrific idea. I did not get the idea from him, but he said the idea as well, so it is not as if this idea just sort of came around one day. It sort of evolved over time as sort of an effort to find a solution out of the problem rather than banging our heads against the wall and complaining. I am getting sick and tired of doing press interviews about high gas prices and someday we may have our roles reversed, and I do not want you sitting over here telling me, going after that planning department saying where are all these studies. I do not look forward to that at all.

I would like to know what you are planning to do about this as it relates to the solution that I have been talking about here.

Mrs. Render: I am not too sure that I quite believe the last part of the member's sentence. I am sure he would like to see the roles reversed. Interestingly enough, Churchill has captivated the minds of various Manitobans from the early part of the century. As the member opposite knows, I am an aviation historian in my other life, and way back in January 1926 the federal Department of Railways and Canals put out a tender to see whether there would be any airways company in Canada that would airlift some material into Churchill to see about the viability of Churchill as a port to use it for entry purposes here into the province. Just a little piece of history to get away from gas talk, all this gasoline price talk.

There was a company here in Manitoba that undertook to fly in many tons of equipment including explosives the first time that explosives had ever been airlifted in the world. That company was called Western Canada Airways, and it was formed right here in Winnipeg. It took off right at the end of Brandon Avenue on the river there, and it is called the Churchill Airlift. The studies that were performed that spring made the federal government realize not only the importance of using aircraft in peacetime, but also really opened up the idea of the potential of Churchill as a northern port for this province to distribute products.

Unfortunately the question seems to have hung many times, and whether or not Churchill has been utilized to its full benefit could probably be another discussion of many hours length. I will acknowledge that what the member has put on record, again, some very, very valid points. I think the key question, though, is how feasible is it to use Churchill as a port for the shipment of products through Churchill and fanning out through Manitoba and then possibly being distributed east and west.

Just so that the member does not think that all of his questions have been for naught all of these years, although I would not like to give the impression that it was the member who initiated this particular initiative, I will advise the member that, as a matter of fact, there is a memorandum of understanding between Manitoba and the Northwest Territories, Nunavut. There is a working group that is examining the feasibility of fuel shipments through Churchill and looking at various transportation issues of interest to both Manitoba and Nunavut.

* (1610)

Mr. Maloway: I wonder if the minister could clarify that statement a little bit further. Does she mean that the committee is looking at sending gasoline north along the OmniTRAX route to Churchill and further north, thereby cutting out the ships that are bringing the gasoline in at the moment, or is she talking about what I was suggesting, and that is that they would continue to bring gasoline into the Port of Churchill, and rather than just shipping it all north, that they would divert some of it and ship some of it south?

Mrs. Render: My understanding is that the fuel could go either way. Probably what I should suggest to the member is that this is not something that this department is involved in. The member might like to talk with Manitoba Highways, because I believe they are the ones that are directly involved. So my answers are, I just do not really have the answers to any sort of in-depth kind of questioning. I really just wanted to let the member know, because I knew he was interested in Churchill, it appears that Churchill has once more resurfaced and done more than resurfaced. It is actually back on somebody's agenda to be talking about it.

Mr. Maloway: Perhaps if the minister could endeavour to obtain more documentation on this from the Highways department, because there is no guarantee that I will be able to get to Highways Estimates. I have another set in Government Services after these ones. So if she could make a note of trying to get, she will probably have a better chance of getting documentation from the Highways department than I will in the first place, if she could use her good offices to obtain this information.

I do not expect miracles overnight here. If the first year they can simply upgrade the tank farm and ship a few carloads, I would be happy to see just a few carloads shipped south just to prove that it can be done. If it can then, there is a market for it. I can see some expansion of it going. I mean, Manitoba is in a situation where we have to use whatever advantage we have got. We do not have these oil wells. So if we can use the port, we solve a whole bunch of problems. We solve problems for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, we solve problems for the Highways department, and we solve problems for northern Manitoba all at once. It is a win-win-win solution if we can come up with something.

Another solution, and I guess I do not lie awake at nights losing sleep over oil companies and stuff like that. It may sound like I do, but I do not. I do think that the ultimate revenge of the public against the oil companies will be the day when we can get off oil. So I have taken an active interest in the electric cars, yes, and the hybrid fuel system, Ballard bus, and so on.

In the Government Services Estimates in the last couple of years, we have talked at length about how we could start phasing in alternative-type cars into the fleet. The former minister, the ex-MLA from Portage la Prairie–there have been so many of them in the last few years–when he was Minister of Government Services, had adopted just a pure free-enterprise approach. Unless he could save two cents per car, he was not going to make a move. He was not prepared to make any commitment or any adjustments for the environment or anything like this. With him, it just was dollars and cents, and as long as he could save a few cents a car into the future using gasoline-powered vehicles, that is what he was going to do. He had a very closed mind when it came to anything new. I am probably not telling any tales out of school here when I say that.

So I know that the electric vehicles, when I was here in 1977–no, I guess it was '75, when the Schreyer government bought some electric vehicles, a Renault electric vehicle from, I think it was from a company in Minneapolis, and a van. You know, those were days when we were into testing different ideas and so on. They were pretty exciting times. We were a lot younger in those days. I remember seeing the electric vehicles driving around the front of the building here, and the press all out taking pictures of them. At the end of the day, the experiment was 25 years ahead of its time. But, like a lot of ideas, you know, it takes people to develop the idea, and eventually it becomes a normally accepted practice.

But I think the government should be showing leadership and not just reacting all the time. So I know that the electric vehicles have dropped a little bit in favour, but the hybrid-fuel vehicles are starting to show a lot of promise. In fact, I think the first production models will be around in the next year or two, mandated and helped partially by laws in California and, I believe, Arizona, and so on, requiring car makers to produce cars that burn less fuel. So part of our problem may get solved with moves to get off the addiction that we have for gasoline and gasoline-powered vehicles.

The minister mentioned bicycles. I am having bad luck with bicycles this year. I had one stolen right in front of the Legislative Building, about 25 feet from the steps in full view of the guards and another one stolen just the other day. So I have kind of given up on the bicycle idea. But I am looking at any other solutions–

An Honourable Member: Roller blades.

Mr. Maloway: Roller blades, the minister suggests. That may be my next solution. But I would ask her to make some comments about that as to what priorities she puts that whole area in when it comes to the whole question of gasoline prices.

I know it is not the answer to tell people to park their cars. That was a solution advocated by some people on the Internet recently, a couple of months ago. They wanted people to stop buying gasoline on one day. I know this is not the correct English word, but that was one of the stupidest things that I have heard lately, that on a certain Friday they said no one should buy gasoline. So that just meant people gassed up on Thursday or Saturday and would give the gas stations a holiday on Friday.

As it turned out, I do not think anybody paid any attention to this one-day boycott, although some would argue that anything that draws attention to the problem is good. So I would like to get the minister to give some comments about just where she is coming from. She is clearly free market. I can see that. She is not red by any stretch here on these issues, but I would just like to know, if she is not exactly red or pink, just where is she coming from.

* (1620)

Mrs. Render: The member has put some interesting comments on record. I wish I could remember the name of the Winnipegger, but I was told, and I am not too sure how accurate the story was when it was given to me, that there was a prominent Winnipegger back just after World War I, who had an electric car. Just so that all of us here do not think that the idea of an electric car is something from the '70s or the '80s, in fact there was one here in Winnipeg. This individual had a special garage built, maybe the member knows and can tell me the name of the person, but he would park it on this very specially made pad, and during the night the car would be recharged. He had to back it into the garage in a certain position, and apparently it was on some sort of a turntable. Then when he was ready to head out in the morning, it would be facing the door for him.

So this particular Winnipegger was doing his best way back in the early decades of this century to bring in the idea of electric cars. Now, whether his reason was he was hoping to market them or whether he was environmentally conscious at that very early stage of the century, I am not too sure.

But I guess what I can say is that when there are alternatives, competition always increases, so I think the industry itself, as well as others, are always looking at alternate ways of fuelling cars, the same as whether it is cars we are talking about or heat, solar energy.

A number of years ago I can remember when Manitoba Hydro brought in, you know, going all electric was the way to go to heat your house. They brought in new ideas and new concepts on insulation, and you had the various types of foam. Hydro itself had a particular type of foam that it was testing and marketing. If you used this and if you triple paned your windows and if you put foam in your roof and everything was totally insulated, then you were going to save hugely on your heating bills.

So I would say that over the last two to three decades, certainly Americans, North Americans have become far more conscious of the environment, of reducing nonrenewable resources. I would say that probably most governments across the land, and I am saying across the land in a general term, not just Canada, but the United States, work to find alternative sources to the energy sources that we are presently using. I say energy again in the broad sense, not just gas for cars, but also for lighting, also for heating and that sort of thing. So like the member opposite, I think we have to work towards this.

Mr. Maloway: I believe the minister is correct that at the turn of the century or at a certain point around that time there were more electric cars than there were gasoline cars. I believe the person she was talking about in Winnipeg was from Fort Rouge, but I forget the name.

But the point really is, though, that it takes vision to promote these ideas and also a lot of capital, because if you follow Ballard Power Systems in Vancouver, I mean, they had the engineering expertise. The fellow who started it stuck with it. Now he has become partners with major car companies across the world, and the idea is starting to move. That is, I think, probably one of the best solutions, because the by-product is hydrogen and it does not cause pollution, and so on.

But, you see, unless there is a commitment, unless there is some direction from the government, unless the President of the United States, as happened with I think the DBD standard a couple of years ago, issues the order that this is the way the standard is going to be, then there tends to be chaos out in the market and nobody really makes a proper move. So it is up to the government to marshal its forces and lead, I think, by example and not be constantly reactive.

I know it is easy enough to get into that kind of mode, because many years ago I was assistant to one of the Schreyer ministers. I know that when you get in the government you develop a sort of a fortress type of mentality and, you know, the opposition is the enemy and your concern is the next election. That is not why we are here, because at the end of day we find out we get old and we have not really done anything. So our time here, you know, we are just renting space. We are not here permanently, and I think the average MLAs last about–what?–six and a half years, you know. We should collectively try to make as good use of the time as possible, and that I think points to the fact that we should be proactive and not reactive.

So when the current member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), his–the former MLA, the big advocate of the flat earth society. He approached things from just dollars and cents, and he was not interested in listening to any new ideas. As a matter of fact, the previous minister, member Ed Connery, was, you know, for all the gruff exterior that the man had and all the right-wing tendencies that he was alleged to have, the guy was actually a fairly progressive guy in many ways. So this is what you need. You need people who are prepared to try new ideas, and in this case the government fleet is a good place to start looking at alternative fuel vehicles.

I do not know that the deputy minister has a government car and the planning department has a government car. I do not know how far all these cars go, because it is so many years since I have been around government cars. But I would suggest that maybe as an example the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the cabinet ministers could do something revolutionary like start driving vehicles that are operating with alternative fuels, or as the minister has suggested, buy a bus pass or ride bicycles. I mean, you know, try to lead by example. Now having said that, I am not intending to follow the minister on a bicycle anytime soon, but I just want to pre-empt a counterattack by her.

In any event, I understand that she is interested in these issues, but the government should develop some sort of a comprehensive attack on the fuel price question. You know, in Europe gas prices are extremely high, very high, and North Americans would just be shocked if they were dealing with the prices that you see in other countries. Of course, one of the arguments that conservationists will use is they will say, well, you know, if the price of gas is really high, then people will not afford to drive, and they will start taking bicycles and roller skates and all sorts of other things. They will start walking and getting in shape and jogging and doing all these other things, right. Clearly, in other countries you have people accommodating to high prices.

So people are prepared to make a sacrifice, I guess, if they understood what the sacrifice was for. So if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) started riding a bicycle or taking the bus to work, I think the average person might say, well, if the Premier can do this, if the minister can do this, if the deputy can do this, all these people, the leaders of the community are prepared to make some sacrifices, well then we do not mind doing it, too. I mean, you know, it is not really that complicated. The minister knows that we can make changes to the gas pricing approach of the government, and people will buy into it if they see that there is some hope of success.

* (1630)

I would like to leave this area and get on to the area of CAMVAP. I understand that the Planning department is involved in this area as well. Now, by way of background, the lemon laws have become–well, I guess maybe 12 years ago the former member for Riel, Gerry Ducharme, I recall him asking questions about lemon laws, so certainly there were people interested in it that far back.

In states like the United States, Dr. Nowicki I believe in Florida wrote his Ph.D. in lemon laws. So I know people find that sort of humorous or have found it humorous in the past, but the fact of the matter is that it is a serious issue. In fact, lemon laws have spread throughout North America over the last dozen years. Now that is not to say that we have really excellent programs though in all states and jurisdictions. We have some programs that are heavily favoured, favour the car companies, sort of known as lemon law light, I guess, and we have some other programs that really are very onerous on the car companies, and they tend to benefit the consumers.

Florida was, and I have not been following it that much lately, but I used to get their annual reports, and I have been down there and attended some of their sessions in the past, but they were No. 1, and I am not sure that they are right now. But let us assume that things are as they were, and that is that Florida had one of the toughest laws. In fact, they even had lemon law for used cars.

Now what happened was that in Canada the provinces negotiated a national program, and at the time I do not think that–this was around 1990-91, and I know the auto manufacturers put a lot of pressure on the Ontario government of the day to prevent them from bringing in a very tough lemon law. So, you know, I understand how the system works. Basically, the car companies are trying to get into the program as cheaply as possible, get out of the program as cheaply as possible, have as few constraints in their business operations as possible. So I have been somewhat suspicious about the federal program or the program we have in Canada because it did involve all of the provinces getting together and setting standards. I mean, one would expect that if Ontario were to agree to the standards with all the car companies there that the standards cannot be that high. But I was prepared to give it a fair run, and it has been now, I do not know, four or five, six years that it has been operational.

So I would like to get a report, an up-to-date report, on what is happening with this program, whether it has met or exceeded expectations, what its possibilities are and whether it is satisfying the problems of consumers of Manitoba.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, coincidentally, there was an announcement today on CAMVAP, and there have been changes to the CAMVAP program. Most of the changes will benefit consumers. Two of the changes, kilometreage limit on vehicles eligible for the program and an age and kilometreage–what a weird word–limit on vehicles eligible for a buy-back award–something a little different.

Let me just maybe for the member's benefit go through some of the changes. I am reading off the news release. As the member may have been advised in previous Estimates, in 1996 CAMVAP hired an accounting firm by the name of Clarke Henning Company to review all aspects of the plan. It was really an operational review, and identify areas for improvement.

So just as the member was talking about, we can always have things up and running, but the question has to be asked within a short period of time how effective is a particular project or a particular program. So this group was hired to undertake an operational review. They reported back to CAMVAP's board of directors in September 1997, and the report contained several recommendations for improving the program. Now some of the recommendations obviously pertain to administrative matters such as internal processing of applications, but on the whole I believe most of the recommendations pertained to the effectiveness of the program in terms of eligibility coverage and awards.

Now, the main changes are, one, where vehicles are bought back from the consumer by the manufacturer, the consumer will now be eligible for compensation for charges such as freight and administration fees in addition to the price of the vehicle. So I am sure that the member will be pleased with that particular change. Secondly, where the vehicle is leased, consumers will be eligible to receive greater compensation for their security deposits and down payments, and in addition, the consumer will no longer be required to make arrangements with the vehicle's lessor to terminate the lease. This task will become a responsibility of the manufacturer. So again, a step in the direction of easing the burden on the consumer. Third, a new maximum kilometreage limit of 160,000 kilometres will be introduced. Also, vehicles that have been in service for more than 36 months or 60,000 kilometres are not eligible for buy-back awards but remain eligible for all other CAMVAP awards.

Vehicles owned by businesses will be eligible for CAMVAP provided that the person applying for arbitration is an owner of the business and the vehicle is driven by that person or a member of his or her family and that the vehicle is used primarily for personal use. Vehicles such as snowplows, couriers and taxis will continue not to be eligible for arbitration under the plan.

Something else that I think the member will be interested in is the out-of-pocket expense allowance to pay for towing and taxis and accommodation, diagnostic fees and other incidentals relating to problems with the vehicles will be increased from $350 to $500. Again, another change which I think is important is that consumers will be able to bring any person of their choice to represent them at the arbitration hearing. In the past, only a lawyer or a family member could assist the consumer in presenting his or her case.

Also, CAMVAP awards will no longer be confidential. Consumers will be free to talk publicly about their experience with CAMVAP and the result of the arbitration. CAMVAP will post arbitration results on its Internet site later this year.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I did not make note of all of the changes that the minister read into the record, but I would like to ask the minister whether each and every one of the changes is an improvement in the plan, or are any of the changes taking away something that was previously offered.

Mrs. Render: Yes, one of the changes that I did talk about, the 160,000 kilometre limit, I suppose you could look at it from a consumer point of view and say that it will have a negative impact, but I think the member will understand that the change was made because once you get into that high mileage area, it is hard to determine whether it is wear and tear on the vehicle or whether it is a defect. So I think that change is certainly an understandable change. I should advise the member that the Consumers' Association of Canada was supportive of the changes.

* (1640)

Mr. Maloway: So could the minister repeat then what was that change? It was from where to where?

Mrs. Render: Up until today, there was no limit. So, as I say, I think the member can understand that if somebody brought a car in with 300,000 kilometres and said I have a problem with it, that is a little late in the day. Is the problem because of the defect or is the problem just simply wear and tear?

Mr. Maloway: Can the minister indicate who drove that change, whether it was one of the automakers or whether it was one of the provinces, the Consumers' Association? I cannot see it being the Consumers' Association.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, we do not have that information.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister attempt to get that answer for us as to who made the representations regarding this change to the program? Could the minister also, while she is checking this out, tell us whether there have been any studies done comparing this program to other programs in the United States? I would like to know whether you have a chart that indicates which states have a lemon law and what the features of the lemon law in each state are.

Mrs. Render: I believe that most of the states have some sort of lemon law. I think they vary from one state to another. We do not have a chart stating the various features for the lemon laws.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I have great hopes for this minister, and I am counting on her to find out where this program sits with regard to the other programs in the United States and to make efforts to get some changes that will benefit consumers.

I mentioned earlier that in Florida I believe they have already a used car program. So I fail to see how we are ever going to get a used car program in this country if we are already putting limits on new cars in terms of kilometres, if we are already saying that new cars are unlimited, and now we have said they are back to 160,000 kilometres and they no longer qualify. If we are already making changes like that, then how are we ever going to get a program that will apply to used cars, because that is even opening the door even wider?

So I would ask the minister if she would try to do that comparison. It is not that difficult to do. All the department has to do is phone Phil Nowicki in Tallahassee in Florida, and he will fax you up the reports. I do not get the annual reports anymore. So I guess he has taken me off his mailing list, but I used to get them for several years. Perhaps in those annual reports that he has, I believe they do have comparisons right in the annual report. Because they are No. 1; they want to stay No. 1; they are only too happy to do the comparisons and show that they are behind or ahead. But there are a lot of states, Mr. Chairman, that have very, very poor lemon law and that it is lemon law that really is just basically in favour of the company. Under certain circumstances, companies will push the idea themselves because they want to look like they are consumer friendly when in reality they are just simply taking pre-emptive action to keep consumer groups at bay and not having to live with a tougher solution which they will have to do if they do not make the initial move.

So the question is: who is controlling the agenda in the lemon law? We know in Florida it was the consumers who were controlling the agenda. They were pushing the flag further down the field and forcing changes. I do not get the impression that the Canadian version of it is all that advanced.

Mrs. Render: Just for the member's infortion, and probably he already knows this, this program does cover not only the current year of the car but also four previous years. So in a sense we do have sort of a used car protection here. I just want to advise the member that the president of the Consumers' Association is on record as saying that their representatives, in other words, Consumers' Association of Canada's representatives on the CAMVAP board of directors have worked closely with the industry and government representatives to bring about these very positive changes. I am quoting for the record here the president of the Consumers' Association, and I continue her quote: The Consumers' Association of Canada believes that the changes to the award structure and making the program results more open and transparent will make CAMVAP a stronger and better program for consumers.

I find it interesting that their next objective is to have CAMVAP available to consumers in the province of Quebec. So I would say that CAMVAP is serving the consumers very well.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister give me the name of the Consumers' president? Is this Consumers' Canada in Ottawa or is this Consumers' in Manitoba?

Mrs. Render: Yes, this is the Consumers' Association of Canada. The president is Gail Lacombe.

Mr. Maloway: When the minister says that it goes back four years, I think what she means is that it is going back four years but for the original owner of the vehicle. Is that not correct?

Mrs. Render: I have to ask the member to repeat his question. Was your question that this CAMVAP only applies if it is the same owner?

Mr. Maloway: Yes, I was looking for clarification because my understanding is that it applies to the original owner of the vehicle.

Mrs. Render: No, my understanding is that it applies to whoever happens to own the vehicle, whether it is the original owner or whether it has changed hands two or three times.

* (1650)

Mr. Maloway: Another big problem with these programs is how the public is informed about them. If you notice the 1997 reports, I guess, that is the latest report I have, the annual report of CAMVAP indicates that there does not seem to be a procedure. In Florida, there is a procedure whereby it is mandatory when the new car is sold that the lemon-law booklet be in the glove compartment and that the rules and the understanding be communicated to the purchaser at the time of purchase. Now, I can tell you that that is just not happening here at all. That is not happening. It is not a requirement.

Just as a test, when I bought a new vehicle November of '95, I waited to see whether I would be given the book and I was not given the book. I was not told anything to this day. I felt good about my purchase and whatnot and not wanting to alienate the dealer, I did not say, you know, where is my book? Why is it not here? I am going to take you to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, whoever that was at the time. I just accepted it, but I kept a mental note of it. At no time did anybody–now, later on in the process, a month or two later, I did talk to the salesman. I did ask him, and he knew absolutely nothing. We are talking about a salesman who had been in business for a number of years, never heard of lemon law before. So I do not know what these people think, how they think they are going to promote the program if they do not make it a requirement that it be provided with each new car purchased. Tell me why is that not the case?

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, CAMVAP does make consumers aware of their existence in a number of ways: a website, distributing the literature on the plan itself through a variety of ways, through the provincial Consumer Affairs offices, through provincial courts, auto dealerships, Better Business Bureaus–I am talking right across the country here, not just Manitoba–the Consumers' Association of Canada and the Canadian Automobile Association.

In addition, all auto manufacturers specify dispute resolution procedures in the operator's manual of new vehicles. According to CAMVAP, for instance, GM and Ford mention CAMVAP by name and provide addresses and phone numbers. Chrysler and some of the Japanese automakers prefer to direct dissatisfied consumers to their customer assistance centres first, while mentioning their participation in a national arbitration plan in their operator's manual. If the customer assistance centre is not successful in resolving the consumer's problem, then the centre directs consumers to CAMVAP.

Over the years, the number of consumers who become aware of the plan through the dealers and the manufacturers has been increasing. CAMVAP appears to be operating well, so perhaps the incident that the member was speaking of happened a number of years ago. I am not too sure whether he mentioned the date or not.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would make inquiries and after that representations to CAMVAP that if they are not requiring it at the current moment, if they are not requiring that the booklet be given to and explained to new buyers at the time of sale, that that requirement be put in the rules. Would the minister endeavour to determine that and take action on that line?

Mrs. Render: The director goes to the annual meeting, and I have asked him if he will bring that up at the annual meeting.

Mr. Maloway: That has always been a fundamental point with these programs and certainly one that differentiated Florida from a lot of the others, in that while the programs existed and were in some cases car company friendly, others, like Florida, were consumer friendly and had the requirement that each and every car sold, that the book had to be present, it had to be explained and it had to be given to the person so that they understood that it was available.

The list on the final page of the report indicates the number of manufacturers. I just wanted to make certain that everyone was participating in this. It starts from Chrysler to Volvo, but I do not know that every manufacturer is in the program.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, it is my understanding that the vast majority, virtually all, are involved in the program. There may be a couple that are not.

Mr. Maloway: I was just interested in knowing if there were any exceptions to the rule.

I have a case, and I do not usually deal with individual cases, but in this case the person who is involved in this got several thousand signatures and presented them to me, and I would like to present them to the minister and her department for some sort of action.

I wanted to read the letter that she had sent to the Consumers' Bureau on July 28, 1998, and it gives you some idea that not all people are happy with the CAMVAP program and that there are still problems out there.

She said that we bought a brand new '92 Ford Explorer 4x4 in August of '92 from Parkside Ford, 2000 Main Street. The vehicle now has a mileage of approximately 42,000 kilometres. So that does not sound like a lot of kilometres. I do more than that in one year. This was in '92, and she wrote the letter in '98. Still looks like brand new, and they purchased an extended warranty on the truck, and it is still under warranty until August of '98. They have special mats on the floors and towels to cover the seats. The windows are always kept shut. The inside of the vehicle is clean. It is usually parked in the garage. If it is parked outside for a long time, it is covered with a truck cover. If the exterior of the truck gets dirty, it is washed immediately.

Now, they live in a rural area. She claims they do not travel very fast, and they do not drive it all of the time. She says that the truck has been in and been serviced more times than she can count. Antifreeze was disappearing out of the motor. The radiator was replaced. The radio was replaced. There are two oil pan leaks. Throttle sensors replaced. Cruise control wire was broken. Fuses were in the wrong place in the fuse box. Power motor for the rear passenger window was replaced. Module for the daylight running lights was replaced. Horn replaced. Hubs replaced. Tires not balanced from factory. Battery replaced, and it goes on and on.

* (1700)

The shocks are worn out for the second time in the front. The back shocks and valves have been replaced but are crooked and wearing abnormally. The moulding rubbers and hinges have been replaced, but the doors still do not line up properly and are wearing down the paint inside the door frames. The steering wheel is crooked and wobbly. There is a crack in the moulding of the dash. When you take out the ashtray, the ashtray is crooked on its slot. Also, the glove compartment box is crooked. Everything is crooked on the truck. The bumpers have rust damage around the holes, indicating the bumpers formerly held fog lights or something similar. The bug deflector cracked by simply driving in cold weather, and two broken pieces do not even line up properly.

There are two shades of white on the vehicle. The roof and the hood look to be white, while the rest of the vehicle, the white has a slight beige to it. She goes on: the white spray paint and the black trim on the doors and hood and back hatch reveal the vehicle has been repainted. When you unscrew the screws on the fender, it is not white underneath, nor is it white underneath the two doors on the driver's side. There is also visible damage under one side of the vehicle, and a mess of silicon covering some kind of repair on the other side. The vehicle does not sit balanced. One side is higher than the other. The area on the dash where the VIN number is located is different from other 1992 Ford Explorers. We have finally located the other VIN number on the frame of the truck, and there are scorch or blow torch marks next to them.

They also have two warranty cards with our VIN number, one from Canada and one from the United States. It is as if the vehicle was produced twice. Another owner's name came up on the vehicle's computer record almost two years ago, and this is when we started really investigating things. Unfortunately, we were unable to track the person down, and we were receiving mail in our name but at a different address. As it turns out, the people at that address also own a 1992 Explorer, although they purchased it from a different dealership. Their truck was produced in March 25, '92. Ours was April 3, '92. Ours is white. Theirs is green.

They have talked to 50 Explorer owners. None of them have had anywhere near the problems that they have experienced. Now, the vehicle has never been in an accident in their possession, and they have a frame gauge, and the frame is bent. They have never repainted the truck. It still has the factory and dealership decals on it.

An Honourable Member: Who drives it at night?

Mr. Maloway: I do not know.

We drove the truck off the dealership lot and straight to Ziebart, when they first bought it, to put protective coating over the top of the paint. The truck has been a nightmare. Repairs are done, and yet more problems continue to arise. They have proven to us time and time again that they cannot fix this vehicle, and now we know why. The damage this vehicle has suffered is too extensive.

It was clearly not brand new when we purchased it, and no amount of repair will ever be able to fix it. Besides, Parkside Ford and the representatives at Ford have denied any wrong-doing on their part. Sincerely, Bertha Micholov [phonetic].

She has followed this through now. This letter was to the Consumers' Bureau. She went around and collected petitions. I am going to present the minister with copies of the petitions and would ask her if she could make copies and just return them back to me. I do not have the originals. She has just given me copies of the petitions. But I will read the petition.

She obviously does not think that Manitoba has a lemon law or at least does not have one that is very effective, because her petition says: Manitoba needs a lemon law.

She says: I am fed up with automobile dealerships misrepresenting the vehicles they are selling, selling damaged vehicles to unsuspecting people, not honouring the warranties on the vehicles they sell, saying too bad when owners discover a multitude of problems with their vehicles, charging Autopac twice the cost to repair parts in the event of an accident so as to increase the chances of a vehicle being written off.

She says the law should be protecting consumers, not allowing huge corporations to get richer at the expense of their customers. Manitoba needs a set of lemon laws that will force automotive corporations to take responsibility for the products they sell.

She has gone to quite an effort here, because she has several thousand signatures. I would like to present these to the minister, and perhaps the minister could investigate this case and get back to me with some possibility as to what the solution in this case might be. I do not know whether she needs a copy of the letter, but I would like to get that back. [interjection] Just the front page maybe of the letter, so she knows how/where to reference. [interjection] No, it has never been presented to anybody. She just wanted me to present it to the minister.

Mrs. Render: Perhaps I could the ask the member a question. When did the consumer first start making noises about her problem car?

Mr. Maloway: I have never met the complainant personally, but my assistant has been dealing with her on and off now probably for the last–I am thinking it is probably a year. It certainly seems like a long time but it may have been a year, a year and a half. I am not exactly sure, but certainly she has been running around trying to get satisfaction in various different places. I am not sure just all of the places she has been.

I see by the letter, obviously, she wrote the Consumers' Bureau. [interjection] Mr. Chairman, if the minister would like a full copy of the letter, she is certainly welcome to have it. I simply got her a photocopy just of the front page so that would indicate Bertha Micholov's [phonetic] name and the date that the letter was sent. I have no copy of the reply that came from the Consumers' Bureau. What I would like to know is in this case why would the lemon law not have dealt with the–I am not holding anybody to task here and I am not blaming anybody for not doing anything, I am just saying why is it that you have a woman that bought the vehicle way back in 1992, she went in as an unsuspecting consumer, in good faith put down the money to buy this vehicle and has had nothing but problems with it.

That would be fine if we did not have a lemon law but we have lemon law, so the question is why does it not respond? Is there something inherently wrong with the lemon law form that we have that did not allow this to be dealt with by that form? After all, lemon laws came about primarily to make it easy, so people would avoid lawyers and courts. There has always been a solution to go to a lawyer, spend all kinds of money suing the car company and suing the dealership, but where is a working person supposed to be able to afford the time and the expense of a lawyer? Why should they have to sue, in this case Ford Motor Company and a car dealership who probably have more resources than she does? I would bet on that. Why should she have to do that?

So that is why lemon laws have come about. It is basically nothing more than an arbitration system to keep the whole business out of the courts so we do not run up legal bills, and we do not put people to all sorts of aggravations that they should not be put through. I would say that in her case she has been through an awful lot here. From 1992 this is almost eight years. That is an awful lot for people to go through. So clearly there is something here that has fallen through the crack. I am just wondering whether we can, between you and me, come up with some sort of a solution as to what might be beneficial to this person.

* (1710)

Mrs. Render: Just to be clear, I am sure the member knows that CAMVAP will not cover this particular individual's problem, and I am accepting this information for information because I do not know that we can do anything for it. CAMVAP is not legislation. It is a program that is voluntary, that is put together by the manufacturers. I think all of us know of at least one person that has had a problem with a car. Sometimes just the threat of taking a dealer to court quite often does what is needed and a customer gets satisfaction, so I just do not want to, as I say, be accepting this material under false pretences.

Mr. Maloway: I am certainly accepting of that. I know that is true. I do know that earlier this year, or last year, I am not sure when it was exactly, there was a case involving a vehicle where the Consumers' Bureau solved the problem in no time flat. The person in question in the other case had been dealing with a lawyer and had got no satisfaction from the lawyer, and when upon going to the Consumers' Bureau had the situation resolved in a matter of days. It was perhaps weeks, and this was a case that was equally as old as this.

It was from around 1991 or 1992, so it was several years old, and the Consumers' Bureau in that case obviously took the bull by the horns and went out in this person's favour and went to the car dealership. An offer was made, and it was accepted. The cheque was picked up and the whole operation was done, I believe, it would seem within a few days. It seemed like it was a week and it was done. Now, that is pretty abnormal, I would think, to have those kinds of quick solutions, and that was a situation where it did not seem like there was any possible resolution either.

Obviously, when you have lawyers mixed up in it and they cannot get anything done, you would think that it is kind of beyond repair, right? At this stage, the Consumers' Bureau got involved and it was settled in a week, and the lawyers could not settle for two or three years before. Now, that is one example. I could probably find some examples on the other side, and, as a matter of fact, I can find some examples on the other side where the Consumers' Bureau was unable to do and accomplish what it should have done. But we will deal with the good ones today. We will deal with the bad ones tomorrow.

So I accept that there may not be a possibility of help here, but certainly if the minister takes over this file, takes a look at it, and tries to help this poor woman out of her dilemma that she is in right now, then perhaps she will be happy at the end of the day. But I would imagine she is probably scarred for life based on her experience with this vehicle.

Now, I have a bunch more. I have a bunch of files that, well, they are quite thick actually. I did not bring them today, but they are similar sorts of problems that people have had. At a time when you have a lemon law, you wonder why there are still examples of this around. Does it not make sense to you that if you have a good lemon law in this country that (a) people should know about it, and they do not, (b) people should be getting their problems solved, and we know they are not? I know that it is probably usual that if people get a solution to their problem, they do not go to the opposition critic complaining because they are happy, so I accept the fact that I am not seeing people that are happy.

I am not seeing people that have got a solution to their problem. I am seeing the ones that are unhappy, so I accept that. The question is why do we have so many? Why is it so easy to find these people? Why, in Bertha's case, is she able to, in her travels, come up with several pages of people with like problems, presenting them to me with names, addresses and a synopsis of their problems when we live in this world of effective lemon law? So, that is the point. Why do we have this kind of after-market here when this CAMVAP is supposed to be solving our problems?

My suggestion is it is one of two problems. One, people do not know about it; or, No. 2, it is not strong enough. So we have to get to the bottom of why that is. If it is so effective, then why are we having these people falling through the cracks? Why is that?

Mrs. Render: I do not know what the answer is to the member's question. I doubt if there is any program in this world that is going to guaranty 100 percent satisfaction for everyone. I will say to the member, though, that this department has not received any complaints about CAMVAP itself. So I guess there is an onus on consumers that if they feel that the program that they are utilizing to obtain satisfaction for a poor product is not helping them, they have also got to pursue it themselves.

I know that sometimes people will complain once, and they say, well, I have made one complaint, what more should I do. Well, human nature being what it is, sometimes you have to do more. So there is an onus also on the consumer to pursue something if they do not feel that they have been dealt with in a proper manner.

But my answer is purely speculation. As I say, this department has not received any complaints about CAMVAP. If it did, I am sure that the department would ask the very specific question: what kind of service did you receive, where did it fall down, where is the problem? So I simply cannot answer the question, other than offering a few suggestions.

Mr. Maloway: I think if the minister goes to the trouble of making certain that the cars, when they are purchased new, have the lemon law book in them, that there is a requirement that it be discussed with the new car buyer, then that should go a long way. Consumers cannot come to me and then say, well, I did not know about it. Right?

Second of all, if she does a bit of a comparison with the federal program to the one in Florida or any one of the good ones in the States, she should readily be able to see whether there are some things there that might be advocated on her part by her department. That is easy enough.

* (1720)

She can write down the points, for example. One of them would be perhaps used car lemon law. So she could take that up as one of her causes, you know, put that down for her next ministerial meeting, lemon law for used cars, and other points that one would find in various programs in the States. It should not be that difficult for the department to come up with a half a dozen improvements that she could advocate, because surely she is not going to go to meet with her federal counterparts and advocate that things be taken away from a consumer. She is not going to do that. I know that, okay?

So what she should be doing, I think, is looking for things that could be improvements to the system. That might go a long way to helping solve the problem because after all these years, I would have expected that these kind of complaints would dry up. Honestly, I would not have expected to be hearing from people anymore. As a matter of fact, I am hearing probably from as many now as I was before. The number has not really dropped that much, so that is why there is clearly something not quite right here. If that can be checked out, I will save, you know, going through the pages of people I have here because I do not have all of their permission to go through their individual cases. I just have names, and then I have files.

I know that in some cases, a few years back, some of them were going to demonstrate here in the Legislature and demonstrate out at the car dealership. The car dealerships are very direct. They send a letter out to the person complaining and say, if we lose any business because of your demonstrating, we will sue you for loss of business.

So I had one older man in here a number of years ago, and he was really scared about this. He had his signs all painted, and he was going out for revenge against the car dealership. As soon as he got that notice from the lawyer, saying if he appeared back in front of that dealership again, that he was going to be sued and be held responsible for loss of income. How you would prove that, I do not really know, but there are ways of doing it. That sure scared him off, and he put all his signs in his truck and went home, right? I could not be in a position of advising him to go out and break the law or get himself into more trouble than he was in when he came to me in the first place, because how would that look? He goes to see the critic with one problem, and he leaves and he has got two, and I am supposed to be trying to eliminate the first one. So that was a problem, too, and that does not make anybody feel very good.

So maybe we could leave the lemon law then. I had anticipated that we could spend much more time on this because, you know, it is an area that I like to talk about, well, because it is an area that all of us have to deal with. We all end up buying new cars sooner or later. We all know somebody who has bought one, and the car companies are profitable enough as it is that they can afford to take the odd one back, with a deduction for wear and tear because that is how the program works.

Nobody is getting rich by going through these lemon law programs, and when a product you buy is as bad as some of these vehicles are, then it is only fair that the company take them back. If you buy a computer from Dell or Gateway or one of these national companies, buy it on the Internet, buy it on the toll-free line, if it does not work for any reason I think in the first 30 days they take the whole thing back. If it is not working, they will take the whole system back and they reconfigure it and probably resell it again, but at least, when they sell it, it is supposed to be working and it is supposed to be warrantied or guaranteed for a certain amount of performance, certain amount of time.

Now, one other area that does not get a lot of attention here is the whole area of octane levels. I do not know if the minister is familiar or not familiar with octane levels. Being a pilot she should know all about octane and all those kinds of things, I think. I do not know whether octane is–

Mrs. Render: I used to use 80-87 and now I use 100 low lead.

Mr. Maloway: There you go. So I did not know anything about 80-87 or whatever, but I do know when you go to the United States that there are octane levels posted right on the gas pumps. That is a big deal with some people, I know, and I do get the odd complaint about it. People phone in and want to know why is it that they cannot have octane levels on the gas pumps here. I think several years ago I did bring this subject up and I have no idea of whatever became of the idea, but maybe we could take a look at it now.

Mrs. Render: I think most people recognize the fact that the gas that they get is of the lowest octane level. I understand some of the companies are actually posting the octane level rating.

Mr. Maloway: Well, could the minister tell me what companies are posting them. I take it that it is not a requirement. Companies are just doing it for competitive reasons or they do it because it looks nice on their pumps or, I mean, why? Which companies and what is the status?

Mrs. Render: I cannot tell you which companies nor the reasons why they do it. We have never received any complaints about it, so it is not something that we have gone out and asked questions about.

Mr. Maloway: Well, could the minister then attempt to find out the answers to these questions and let me know which companies are doing it and maybe consider just making it a requirement that everybody do it.

Mrs. Render: We will certainly find out which companies are doing it and we will ask the second question also as to why they are doing it.

Mr. Maloway: One of the questions I had not got to I had on my list here to ask the minister regarding the gas prices was an issue dealing with the tanker trucks. The minister will recall years ago in the '50s probably, around that time, that farmers had little tanks. I do not know if they were 50-gallon tanks or 500-gallon, but anyway they were small tanks and smaller gasoline trucks would drive out to the farm and download gasoline, right?

Now, evidently, when we looked into this back in 1991, what happened was, if you remember from a number of years ago a group of Conservative M.P.s in the '70s bought a gas station, and that was a different issue, but they bought a gas station outside of Ottawa and they were fighting metric, so that will give you an idea of where the Conservative Party was in 1977 or thereabouts, but they were bound and determined that metric was a bad idea, and they were going to fight that. Anyway, they bought a gas station, and they sold gas in the old system and in gallons rather than in litres.

Anyway, in 1991, I heard about this fellow on Pembina Highway that was selling gas, so, of course, rather than just demand that the government regulate gas prices, I decided to go out and get my own gas station and try to do the same thing he was doing. I tracked it all down and I got the tanker. In any event, thank goodness at the end of the day, I had found out that the gas station I was going to use had leaky tanks. So I would have started out trying to once again solve one problem and ended up with two and been in more trouble than when I started. In any event, it was a pretty good idea at the time, I thought.

So since then, about three years ago, I started to go back on this idea to see if I could do this when the prices went up. I found that when I went to the original supplier back in 1991, this guy had gone from one beat-up truck in 1991 during the Gulf War and now he has 20. They are not old anymore; they are nice new ones. So his revolutionary zeal is kind of muted a bit now, and he is part of the establishment these days. He said, ah, there is no point fighting the establishment. You might as well join them, he said. If you want to get in the gas business, I know a nice gas station for $100,000 that you can buy and sell cigarettes and chocolate bars and stuff like that and join the gang. I assured him I did not want to join the gang. I still wanted to see if there was a way to break into this business and sell gas at lower prices.

What I found is that every step of the way, you are prevented from doing that. First of all, you cannot find anybody to sell you the product in the first place. Second of all, you cannot find a gas station that you can borrow, rent, do anything with that is not controlled by one of the companies.

Let us say you could find yourself a gas station and pass all the rules and regulations, and let us say you could find somebody to sell you a tanker full of gas. You might get one or two tankers sold, but then you would not get a reliable supply. So then I looked at, well, why not just take the tanker and sell the product right from the tanker? And I ran into a whole bunch of more rules.

An Honourable Member: Cruise up and down the streets.

* (1730)

Mr. Maloway: Sure. I even had a–I will not tell you where. That would be giving out proprietary information here, but I had a location picked out and the whole works. I was going to get my hose and get the press out there and start filling up tanks. Once again, I had lots of problems every time I turned around. Then I thought, well, maybe I will go with a smaller tank truck, because you can do it for farms and you should be able to.

What I want to know is, and without getting into shovelling it off to the Environment department and stuff like that, why is it so difficult to combat the gasoline retail business because of these regulations? Is there any possible way that you can put the gasoline into a smaller truck and distribute it that way? Do you know? Have you heard? Is there any possible way of doing it, because I kind of gave up on the idea after I tangled with the bureaucracy?

Mrs. Render: I have visions of a Dickie Dee truck going up and down the streets. Maybe we could all have this as a sideline. [interjection] Free enterprise, certainly. However, free enterprise usually also has to contend with government rules and regulations. Regretfully, the member asked not to sort of pawn it off to Environment, but I am afraid this is an area that I really cannot speak on. Rules and regulations are put into place particularly for something like gas which is volatile, flammable, hazardous. I can think of a number of adjectives that would go with it. Obviously, there are a number of rules that have to apply.

That is something else that now applies to gas pumps. As the member I know knows, if you do not use a pump for X number of days, there are rules that kick in, what has to be done to that particular pump. If it is not used for a longer period of time, the pump has to be drained. If it is not used for a 12-month period of time, another set of regulations kick in which must be followed.

So, as I mentioned to the member a day or two ago, maybe it was last week, I have been sitting on the committee which has been looking at rules and regulations, which have been around I think since government began making them here in the province of Manitoba. Some of them have been on the books for many a year, and you wonder about some of the rules and regulations. So it was with a very careful eye that the reg committee looked at rules, and if we could get rid of them, we did, if they were not serving a useful purpose.

Having said that, on the other hand, in this day and age of environmental concerns and hazardous concerns and safety concerns and a whole variety of concerns, there is a place, as the member well knows, for rules and regulations. Regretfully, it is not easy sometimes to get a business up and running without jumping through some government rules and regulations. So I am fairly pleased to hear the member talk about some of the rules and regulations and the fact that they hindered him setting up Maloway gas truck, or whatever his trucking company was going to be called, because I do know that sometimes members opposite wonder why we try not to bring in rules and we try to make this province have a climate that makes it easy for a company to be established here in Manitoba.

As I say, probably the most constant complaint I have heard from business people, whether it was a small- or medium- or large-size business, was the rules and regulations that were in place that government imposed. So the long answer to the question is that the rules and regulations are usually, hopefully, in place only to make sure that a company is operating properly, safely, and within the laws and regulations of various pieces of legislation, and on the other side of the equation, that the consumer, or the general public at large, is protected.

I say that in a general sense because, of course, in this instance, as I say, with gas, which could be classified, I guess, as a hazardous product, you simply have to have some regulations in place so that it is handled properly and stored properly. As I say, there are certain rules and regulations just surrounding the distance you must be from a pump before you can have a lighted cigarette. As I say, there are rules and regulations that, obviously, the member found a little too onerous to overcome.

Mr. Maloway: Well, Mr. Chairman, definitely I had no intention of getting into the gas business. This was just nothing more than a fleeting fancy, an attempt to do, in effect, essentially, what Costas Nicolaou was recommending without getting the government mixed up in it. I saw it happen in 1991, with Careway on Pembina Highway. They created their own little gas war on Pembina Highway. The guy was selling it as fast as he could bring it in. It seemed to me that all you needed was half a dozen other little Careways around the city; I do not think it goes quite down to the Dickie Dee level, but it was an attempt to solve, to do what Costas Nicolaou was recommending, but basically do it without the governments but without having any profit motive in mind because obviously I have enough to do already without getting into more businesses, right, so I am not exactly worried about making any money.

So it was just an idea to break even, just to see, could it be done, rather than sitting back and just complaining, which is what you find happens in opposition, right? I was hoping that we could do a little more than complain, that we could actually do something and show the government, which is what Careway did. He showed the public of Manitoba that you could create a gas war and he brought his gas in from the United States. So why is that a bad idea? But unfortunately there are so many rules that are there. Part of them are safety, but part of them, you actually protect the monopoly that exists, the existing patterns of business that exist, and it is hard to fight the establishment. That is absolutely true. I found that out over the years.

I wanted to move on to a couple of other areas here in the Research and Planning because it is possible that we could finish Research and Planning today. Well, I would not say that, let us try to get most of it done. [interjection] Yes, just from the last couple of days, for sure, but we have left to do, just from memory now, we have the PUB, we have the Securities Commission. We have the automobile injury appeal board, right? We have the credit unions, right? And what else? Anything else here that we are missing? We have a few of those, so we should maybe try to do maybe two of them in a day or maybe try to get more of them done, try to get this all done.

* (1740)

Mrs. Render: We had our Securities Commission person here earlier today. How about Securities tomorrow? What else would you like to do?

Mr. Maloway: Assuming that we are even allowed to go on tomorrow, assuming that we are, then maybe we could try to do them all or try to get them all taken care of. I do not know how many questions I would have to ask about the credit unions other than maybe Internet banking and their Y2K information.

So this is the problem with this business, you never know how long it is going to take or not take, right, it just depends. Sometimes you plan it might be a half hour and it will take an hour. Sometimes you think it is going to take an hour and it is done in a few minutes, right? So it is really hard to say, but I would like to try to get this done so we can go on to Government Services as soon as possible.

I leave it to you to sort that out. You know we have lesser and lesser things to deal with, so let us deal with the disclosure of the cost of credit. I understand on page 10 that your Research and Planning you are dealing with the disclosure of the cost of credit, and it is to do with these harmonization requirements. I would like to know just what has been happening with that lately and where are we at. How is that working?

Mrs. Render: Actually it is the Consumers' Bureau that is working on this particular issue. We are attempting to harmonize right across the country. We are discussing this, I guess that I could say, on a national level in that sense. We will also be consulting here in Manitoba.

Mr. Maloway: The Free Trade Agreement, the original Free Trade Agreement was signed, I think, in 1988. Was it not the end of the year? Mulroney's second win was in the fall of 1988, and the Free Trade Agreement took effect, I think, the first day of the year 1989. So that is over 10 years ago. It seems to me that deal progressed really quickly, I mean, it was done, and here we are 10 years later, we are still discussing internal trade problems and working out the details. Am I right in this assessment? It just took a short period of time to get an international free trade agreement put together, and here we cannot seem to get our act together on minor little things on internal trade issues.

Mrs. Render: As I am sure the member appreciates, the cost of credit disclosure is complicated, and also trying to harmonize, we are having to talk with the other provinces. It is not a simple kind of thing. I can certainly see his analogy, wondering why you can do one thing and it appears that it would take something else a far longer period of time. I do not know how long it took to negotiate the trade agreement, but the changes that are contemplated are not going to be simple. I think it is imperative that it be done correctly.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister tell us what the problem is? Who is holding the process up?

Mrs. Render: The first step was to develop a template. That did take a very long time. I guess really to answer the member's question, nobody is really holding anything up. It is being worked on very diligently but, again, quite often, as you as an MLA will be juggling many things, so too is the department juggling many things. This particular department does not have an excess of staff, so each of our staff members is doing many things at any one time. After the template was developed, the next step was to assess that template against provincial legislation to see what changes might be useful, and the next step will be consulting with Manitobans.

Mr. Maloway: The annual report makes reference to e-commerce. I would like to know what the Research and Planning Department is doing in the e-commerce field.

Mrs. Render: I have been advised that the department did review the report that came out from the advisory council, just to see what the implications were for this department.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister explain the role and the make-up of this advisory council?

Mrs. Render: We do not have that information with us, but it is believed that it was both a combination of private and government representatives. Actually, I have been advised that I should clarify that this was not an advisory group to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. It was likely, I do not know, but it was likely to the Premier.

* (1750)

Mr. Maloway: What was it doing? I mean, this government had a foray into Internet malls, and we lost $2 million in that fiasco. This obviously had nothing to do with, I do not think, had anything to do with the Internet malls, but just what is the role of the minister in e-commerce? Are you trying to regulate e-commerce in Manitoba? Are you trying to encourage e-commerce? Are you getting into it yourself and maybe trying to sell some of your services on the Internet, so that consumers–[interjection] Well, I will let you finish.

Do you have a website where you allow people to come in and purchase reports and stuff like that? If I wanted to get a consumer report on gas prices, assuming there was one that existed, I could go on the Internet and give my credit card and pick up a copy of the gas prices report. Are we talking about that kind of e-commerce?

Mrs. Render: I have just been advised that the group reported to the minister responsible for the information highway, so it was not coming to this–

An Honourable Member: Who was that?

Mrs. Render: At that particular moment in time, it probably was Minister Glen Findlay. I believe he was the minister.

An Honourable Member: I think he is now. I am not sure he was then.

Mrs. Render: I do not really know, but I believe it was Glen Findlay.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, I mean, Glen Findlay was the Minister of Highways.

An Honourable Member: Yes, but he was also the information highway.

Mr. Maloway: And he is the minister of the information highway. I would have thought that it would be Industry, Trade and Tourism, in a way, because they were the people that were forking out the money for the ill-fated, much-maligned Internet shopping mall that was set up by this government and the big fiasco that it turned out to be. I would have thought that the Deputy Premier and the Minister of I, T and T at the time would be in charge of the information highway. That would make sense assuming that we are talking about the Internet here.

Mrs. Render: To my knowledge, the Minister of Highways was also the minister responsible for the information highway, so if we are sounding vague here, that is why.

Mr. Maloway: Well, that leaves me even more confused here. What was the minister in charge of the information highway doing? What was his role? What did he do? Did he set up any Internet malls? Exactly, what was the role of this initiative?

Mrs. Render: I cannot answer those questions. Those are questions better directed to the current minister responsible for the information high-way.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, could the minister find out for us?

An Honourable Member: I would say that the Minister of Highways (Mr. Praznik) is the minister responsible.

Mr. Maloway: You think he still is.

An honourable member: Yes.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): I am sorry, I believe the honourable minister's remark did not come through the mike. Could you perhaps repeat?

Mrs. Render: Okay. I believe I am correct in advising the member that the current Minister of Highways (Mr. Praznik) is also the minister responsible for the information highway.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister whether the department is contemplating or has contemplated providing their services on the Internets on a paid basis. I mean, I would expect they have a website.

Mrs. Render: Mr. Chair, through the Better Systems initiative, those offices that provide a registry type of service will be providing that kind of information on the Internet and in the Personal Property Registry, for instance.

Mr. Maloway: First of all, the department has a website, yes or no?

Mrs. Render: Yes.

Mr. Maloway: The website is available through the Better Systems initiative program or is available just now on the Internet?

Mrs. Render: The website is up and running now. It is available now. It is an information site at the moment.

Mr. Maloway: So then is it contemplated that this website at any time in the future, near or far, will be turned into an e-commerce site whereby it will sell, for a price, information or some sort of documentation to consumers for anything that is required or that the department handles right now. For example, the department might have information that is valuable enough that people would be willing to pay for it. It might have information probably on its website right now that is free, that is available to the public. Is there any contemplation that the department will start selling its services on the Web?

Perhaps I can just get another question in under the bell here. For example, if I wanted to renew a direct seller's licence, why could I not do that over the web and pay that through a credit card transaction and either print my direct seller's licence or have you mail it to me through snail mail? Why could I not do that?

Mrs. Render: Very, very quickly, at the moment we do not have any current plans to do what the member is suggesting. I will just leave my answer at that at the moment.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The time being six o'clock, committee rise.