LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, December 9, 1991

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mitch Podolak, Ava Kobrinsky, T. H. Sparling and others, requesting the provincial government to withdraw provincial funding for The Pines project.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

       

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member for Burrows, I have reviewed the petition and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

       The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth:

       THAT the Winnipeg International Airport is vital to the economic health of the city of Winnipeg, and the project known as "The Pines", in its current location, will jeopardize the future of Winnipeg International Airport.

       THAT to risk the jobs of the hundreds of people who are employed at the airport is not in the best interests of the community.

       THAT "The Pines" project will inhibit riverbank access to the general public.

       THAT the strip mall portion of "The Pines" project will give a foothold to commercial development which is incompatible with the residential nature of the neighbourhood.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to respect the wishes of the neighbourhood by requesting the provincial government to withdraw provincial funding of "The Pines" project;

       AND as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

       

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

       

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Rural Development):  Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement to make, and I have copies for the members of the opposition.

       Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for Rural Development, I am pleased to share with members of the Legislature in the announcement of the formation of the first Manitoba Rural Development Bond Corporation, an announcement that I am sure will be the first of many.

       In July of this year, the government of Manitoba challenged the people of this province to respond to the economic realities facing Manitoba with the introduction of legislation to support the Rural Grow Bond Program.

       Rural Manitobans share a tradition of hard work, achievement and success, and with the spirit of working together, they will continue to grow.

       We have always approached difficult situations with creativity and ingenuity.  Rural Manitobans are known for their ability to survive and adapt, and we must change to survive.

       Our economy has long been dependent on agriculture and related industries.  Agriculture will always be at the heart of Manitoba's past, present and future.

       However, we must diversify.  The saying, "don't put all your eggs in one basket," is more appropriate now than ever before, and so our government set a challenge for the people of rural Manitoba, the rural development Grow Bond program.

       This innovative program offers rural Manitobans the opportunity to invest in the future of their communities and this province and the chance to share in the economic growth of their communities through the generation of local business opportunities.

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       Having taken the first step and met the criteria of the act and regulations that allow for formation of a bond corporation, the Alco Rural Development Bond Corporation will now proceed through the normal review process of its proposal and business plan.

       I am delighted that the town and people of Morden have lent their support to the formation of this corporation.  I look forward to following the progress of this community‑based and locally driven investment vehicle.

       Since October 21, 1991, the Grow Bond office has received 275 enquiries and sent out 260 information packages to individuals and businesses.  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the community of Morden on being the first to participate in Grow Bonds.  It was an initiative that we supported.  I am pleased that the government has followed the Saskatchewan initiative of making them an RRSP deduction.

       I hope that we will see other communities who can take advantage of these bonds, and I hope that the government will work along with communities, but the real question is the agriculture community.  I hope that the government can show leadership in the agriculture community as well to help the farmers stay on the land so that they can afford to invest in these bonds.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Oui, Monsieur le president, il me fait plaisir de repondre a cette annonce aujourd'hui, surtout au nom du rural.  J'aimerais premierement feliciter le village de Morden d'avoir pris cette premiere initiative et de vouloir mettre en vigueur ce programme afin de developper le rural.  L'on sait qu'ils ont des problemes et qu'on doit les supporter.

       Mais, premierement j'aimerais feliciter le gouvernement d'avoir pris l'initiative "liberale" que Madame Carstairs, la cheffe liberale, avait mentionne auparavant, et qui avait ete ridiculisee peut‑etre par les Conservateurs a un moment.  Mais je les felicite d'avoir pris cette initiative.  Je le dis positivement car je ne suis pas une personne negative, alors je felicite le gouvernement de l'avoir fait.  Puis on a toujours dit des le debut qu'on les supporterait et qu'on continuerait a les supporter.  Mais la chose importante qui sera a voir dans les estimes, c'est qu'est‑ce que cela va apporter pour le rural, puis qu'est‑ce que cela coute au gouvernement pour la publicite?  Il y aura la certainement des questions a demander lors des estimes.

       Mais, en terminant j'aimerais feliciter encore le gouvernement et le village de Morden d'avoir pris cette initiative, le premier a le faire.

       Merci.

(Translation)

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to respond to today's announcement, especially on behalf of rural people.  In the first place, I would like to congratulate the town of Morden for this first initiative and for endeavouring to put this program into effect to develop the rural area.  We know that they have problems and we have to support them.

I would first like to congratulate the government for undertaking this "liberal" initiative that Mrs. Carstairs, the Liberal Leader, had proposed in the past and which had perhaps been ridiculed by the Conservatives at one time.  Yet I do congratulate them for this initiative, and I say it positively because I am not a negative person, so I congratulate the government for having done it.  We have always said from the start that we would support them and that we would continue to support them.  The important thing is to see during Estimates what that will mean for the rural areas and what it is costing the government for advertising.  There will certainly be some questions to ask about that during Estimates.

       In conclusion, I would like to congratulate the government and the Town of Morden for having taken this initiative and to be the first to do so.

Thank you.

 

Introduction of Guests

       

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon from the St. George School forty‑two Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. Kurylin.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render).

       Also this afternoon from the Greenway School, we have twenty‑seven Grade 5 students.  They are under the direction of Betty Friesen.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards).

       On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

       

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Net Income

Provincial Decline

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

       Last year in dealing with the government's economic blueprint in the Budget Address the government stated clearly that we are confident that this government's fiscal strategy will result in more jobs and higher incomes for Manitobans.  We already know about the job situation in the province of Manitoba.  The government has yet to achieve its unemployment predictions in its budget in any month of this year since the budget has been presented.  My question deals with the other side, both to the Conservative party, the government in power, in dealing with income.

       I would ask the Premier, in light of his government's predictions on incomes, why Manitoba is last in Canada in labour income for September 1991 over September 1990 and why Manitoba has the only net decline in income of any province in Canada?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition obviously has not been following the farm economy at all.  He was there at the farm rally a month and a half ago, but he was not listening and he did not care.  We understand that, because the Leader of the Opposition obviously does not care about people who are outside the city of Winnipeg and is not aware of the plight of the farm community despite his grandstanding from time to time on their behalf.

       Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that Manitoba has the second lowest unemployment rate in the country, that in fact it dropped by three‑quarters of a percentage point in the last month alone from 9.4 percent to 8.7 percent, well below the Canadian unemployment rate of 10.3 percent, I might say.  We have in fact shown some very significant increases in particular areas that are important to the Manitoba economy.  In fact, in manufacturing employment we have an increase over the first 11 months of this year versus the first 11 months of last year.  In fact, that is the best performance of any province in the country in the manufacturing employment.

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) prefers to have negative images of Manitoba, because that suits her desire.  I do not share‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I would remind the honourable First Minister to deal with the matter raised.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, because the Premier did not deal with the matter raised, I would also suggest that members opposite, while they are clapping, look at the fact that Manitoba had the largest dropout rate per capita of people in the labour force in the last month.  If they are proud of that and can clap for that, then we really are in trouble in this province.

       Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain to the people of Manitoba, if he is using farm income which we recognize went down 6 percent in this province last year, double what the province and the Premier predicted in his last budget, why the province of Manitoba was the only province with a decline in income in the last 12 months, a labour income, when the province of Saskatchewan, which has many more farmers than Manitoba and is much more dependent on farm income than our province on a per capita basis, had a 3 percent increase in labour income?  Can the Premier explain that to the people of Manitoba in his answer today?

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Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, in addition to the good news about manufacturing employment being up in this province this year over last year, one of the few provinces in the country in which that is happening‑‑in fact, it is well above the national average‑‑Canada as a whole has declined by 4.3 percent in manufacturing employment while we are up almost 2 percent in manufacturing employment during that period of time.  That is good news.  In addition to that, of course, the Conference Board of Canada is projecting for 1992 that Manitoba will have a gross domestic product increase of 4 percent, 4 percent again above the national average and fourth best of any province in the country. That is because of the things that we are doing to ensure that there is a sound base for economic growth for job creation.

       I am sure that the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) will be very interested in knowing that today Apotex, Canada's largest Canadian‑owned pharmaceutical company, has announced a major investment of some $20 million, Mr. Speaker.

 

Point of Order

       

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, our time in Question Period is indeed limited, and our rules are very clear that answers must relate to the question that was raised. If the minister does not want to answer the question of the Leader of the Opposition, that is his option, but he should not get up and avoid the fact of the question which we have asked, and that is:  Why has labour income dropped in Manitoba?  Why?

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  On the point of order raised, Beauchesne 410 (3), time is extremely scarce.  Brevity both in questions and answers is of great importance.

* * *

Mr. Doer:  Well, Mr. Speaker, as the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr)‑‑and I do not want to be Joe Biden here and take anybody's words.  He just said, that is the same answer that George Bush has given to the people of United States as he dropped 40 percent in terms of his economic record in United States.  I would suggest the Premier start walking outside of this building and find out what is really going on.

       I asked the Premier a specific question.  Can he explain to the people of Manitoba why Manitoba is the only province in Canada over the last 12 months to suffer a decline in labour income and why we are lagging behind every province, including provinces of western Canada that also rely on our agricultural and farm support programs in this province?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, wages are negotiated between management and labour.  Wages are negotiated between the people who pay and the people who collect.  The fact of the matter is that we are looking to create new opportunities, and we are looking for new investment.  We are working very hard to do that, and we are having some modest degree of success.

       I am sure that we will have more success so that the New Democrats can be very unhappy later in the session as more announcements are made, such as Apotex today, in which they have announced $20 million protecting some 60 jobs and creating another 100 jobs.  Those are high‑tech jobs.  Those are jobs of good calibre and good‑paying jobs.  That is the good news that we are concentrating on so that we can give the Leader of the Opposition more grief and more unhappiness later in the session.

 

CN Rail

Job Relocations

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, recent reports have indicated that CN may transfer thousands of jobs to Edmonton. With last week's CN North American press release which referred to co‑ordinated equipment maintenance procedures, I ask the Premier:  Did he meet with CN before they made this announcement to get assurances that this announcement does not mean the transfers of more jobs to the city of Edmonton or to the U.S.A.?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to thank the member for asking that question.  I think it raises the fact that transportation is very important to this province.

       The NDP opposition party is basically funded by the unions and is given directions by the unions, and, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) gets his direction from the unions as well.  The member for Transcona, I believe, has been a union steward for the last 10 years or something like that.  It is this party, when they were in power, that let the meat packing industry totally get out of this province, losing virtually hundreds and hundreds of union jobs‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

       

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would like to emphasize again and ask you to call the minister to order.  Our rules are very clear that answers to questions should relate to the matter raised.  Perhaps the minister did not have his earphone working at the time, but he was asked very specific questions about the transportation industry.  We would like to hear an answer on the very specific question.

Mr. Speaker:  On the point of order raised, I would like to remind the honourable minister of Beauchesne's 417.  "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate."

Mr. Reid:  Mr. Speaker, I am proud of my relationship with the employees of CN.

 

Layoffs

       

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, given that CN has significantly reduced its workload in its Transcona main shops for 1992, which in past years has been‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Transcona, kindly put your question now, please.

Mr. Reid:  My question for the Premier (Mr. Filmon), Mr. Speaker, is:  Has CN informed the Premier of its intention to lay off another 100‑plus Manitobans from their railway jobs early in the new year?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, in the last three weeks, I have had the occasion to meet with the chairman of the CN board, who had the occasion to meet with the federal Minister of Transport, Mr. Corbeil.  I have raised the issues of the rumours that have been coming out from time to time, and in many cases, we have been chasing down these rumours and find that some of the information is not factual. However, I want to indicate that I am very concerned about any job losses in Manitoba, and my government and I are going to fight to retain every job that we can.

       I have raised these issues with the federal minister as well as with CN, and Mr. Speaker, we will continue to do that.

 

Transportation Issues

Premier's Involvement

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  My final supplementary is to the Premier.

       Can the Premier ‑(interjection)‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Transcona has the floor.

Mr. Reid:  Can the Premier explain to the House and to all Manitobans why he has stood by on the sidelines on the issues of declining railway employment in this province and the Port of Churchill issue, because it is very apparent that he does not care about either issue.  He will travel to Europe, but he will not walk down the hallway to meet with officials of‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I might say that I have indeed met with the chairman of the CN during the past six months, with senior officers of the corporation throughout western Canada.  I have indeed become personally involved because of my commitment as has been expressed by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) to as much as possible maintain all the jobs that we possibly can in the railway and transportation system in Manitoba.

       Mr. Speaker, there have been responses that have been made public by CN to counter the false allegations and rumours that have been fostered by the member for Transcona, and I think it is unfortunate that he is doing that.  He may think that that is in his political interest, but it is not in the interests of the workers of CN.

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Anishinaabe Child and Family Services

Funding Formula

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, where there is an economic downturn, the effect is those vulnerable Manitobans who find themselves out of work or suffering from low incomes.  Those people find themselves at the doors of the Child and Family Services agencies of this province.  Unfortunately, the Minister of Family Services tends to make his decisions himself and in secrecy.

       Can the minister today tell this House why he acted unilaterally and without consultation by changing the funding to the Anishinaabe Family Services agency, and how does he expect them to operate with $114,000 less in their budget?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, we have a very complex and comprehensive system of Child and Family Services agencies in the province of Manitoba and, in many areas of the province, the department looks after the delivery of service.

       In three regions we have Child and Family Services agencies with a board, and of course we have the development over the last decade and more of the Native Child and Family Services agencies within the province of Manitoba.  At the current time, the department is working with those agencies on a number of issues.

       One of them is jurisdiction and the responsibility for Native children throughout the province.  When they are from a specific reserve, we have agencies that are responsible for the reserve‑based care of those children.  When they are off reserve and within the city of Winnipeg and other areas of the province, the department and the agency that has jurisdiction in that area and the Native agencies work together in a concerted effort to provide that service.

       I believe the member is referring to the funding that agencies receive from this government for the supervision of Native children when they are off reserve.  We are certainly in consultation with those agencies on a number of issues and we are in consultation with the federal government as well for what we feel are the government's primary‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House today why a funding formula and a supervision fee was transferred into an administrative fee without any consultation with the agency and was received by the agency in letter form just days after they had met with officials of this department, who let them know nothing about this change.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  We are meeting with the agencies on a regular basis to discuss a number of issues, and we will flow information on decision making to the agencies in a timely fashion.  If the member is asking us to make information known to the agencies prior to the finalizing of the details, we are not in a position to do that.  We are working with those agencies and with the federal government to provide the best possible service for the Native children who come into supervision, whether it be on the reserves or whether it be within the areas of provincial jurisdiction, and we will work with the agencies to see that they have sufficient funding to do the work that they are mandated to do.

Mrs. Carstairs:  It is very difficult to do the work you are mandated to do when the minister changes the funding formula without any consultation.

       Will the minister tell the House how this agency is to pay for psychological assessment, occupational therapy and legal services when they are no longer covered by the fees that he has now prepared to pay for?

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Mr. Gilleshammer:  Again, I would indicate to the member that the funding the Native Child and Family Services agencies gets is basically from the federal government, but the province also provides funding for those agencies where they deliver the services to Native children who live off reserve.  We will continue to work with them through the Child and Family Services directorate and the directors of the Native agencies to provide the best possible care we can for those very vulnerable Manitobans.

 

MacLeod Stedman

Secured Creditors

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

       The minister and the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) have often referenced the government's involvement in opportunities in the province through the Industrial Opportunities Program.  One such investment by the province was the $1.5 million loan to MacLeod Stedman.  On Friday in this House, the First Minister indicated that Manitoba was a secured creditor.

       My question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is:  How is that security posed, and is the province going to recoup the $1.5 million it paid for zero jobs?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, yes, the province has indicated it is secured on that particular loan by the real estate, MacLeod Stedman.  I think, as the member for Flin Flon is aware, that negotiations are ongoing right now with the unsecured creditors of MacLeod Stedman, and certainly with the government, but we will continue to be sure that any loans that are advanced from this provincial government will be secured and will ultimately be repaid to the government.

Mr. Storie:  Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure their realtors will disagree.

       My further question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.  Can the minister explain how the investment of some $8.7 million of federal and provincial taxpayers' money is going to be secured in the creation of 40 jobs at Apotex?

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the honourable member for Flin Flon asks about Apotex, a $50‑million investment in our province that will occur over the next four years, not only creating upwards to 100 new high‑tech jobs here in our province, but also maintaining about 34 jobs currently in the industry. The security that we will be receiving on the $2‑million interest‑free loan, that is, interest free for 42 months and then is repaid over the next three years after that, will be first charge on the real estate being developed by that particular organization.

       We will be well secured.  The loan will be repaid, and it will create 134 jobs here in our province and all of the economic activity that goes from a $50‑million expenditure, Mr. Speaker.

 

Funding Justification

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister's largesse is appreciated.  Can the minister explain, given his comments today, why in the Free Press, July 18, 1991, Apotex already announced the creation of these jobs?  What motivated the province and the federal government to pour in an additional $8 million of taxpayers' money?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I certainly find these questions unbelievable.  Is the honourable member for Flin Flon suggesting for a minute that he does not want to see $50 million of economic activity and 134 jobs being created here in our province?  The initial issue being addressed was the sale of the Rh Institute.  That being addressed, Apotex then committed to develop a pilot production plant here in our province and a full‑scale production plan.

       Certainly, this government knows well that there are incidents where you provide some initial financial support to provide some incentive for that business to locate in your province, but as has been indicated, this is not a grant.  It is a loan.  It is the same as the programs that we offer under other situations.  That money will be repaid, and our return in terms of the direct tax revenue to this government over the next five years is about $1.5 million, whereas the cost is less than $500,000, a return of three to one, which is excellent for the province of Manitoba.

 

Agricultural Industry

Financial Assistance

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the throne speech that the government tabled here in this Legislature on Thursday provided no comfort for farm families across Manitoba who are in trouble at this time.  It seems that this minister has reduced his role to being little more than a cheerleader for the farmers in Manitoba.

       I ask the minister, can he explain why he did not outline even one concrete plan to assist those farm families in Manitoba who are in crisis?  Is it because he did not believe there is a crisis, he does not care or he does not think he is responsible?

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Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  The member fails to realize really what is going on with regard to the support this government is putting in place for rural Manitoba.  The GRIP program, some $45 million of premium support for this year, a deficit liability will probably accrue in the name of the province above $50 million which will put in flow about $300 million to $400 million of direct income support to the province of Manitoba in the grains and oilseed sector to fight a grain trade war.  We have just announced $10.6 million for the NISA program for this year which will put in place about $35 million for the province of Manitoba right now.  That is significant substantial support.

       Also, I want to remind the member that the number of applications coming to the Farm Debt Review Board is down over last year to about two‑thirds of what it was last year.  So the degree of support we are putting in place is obviously having a desired effect.

Mr. Plohman:  Can the minister explain, Mr. Speaker, why he did not bring forward specific measures targeted to those farm families who are in trouble, those 7,000 Manitoba farmers who may not make it through next year, such as debt restructuring?  He could have gone with lower interest rates, debt moratoriums, cost of production, pricing through GRIP.  None of those things are mentioned in this throne speech.  Why did he not bring in those specific measures?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, those measures are already in place. The member does not even bother to read the Estimates or the budget process.  His government had two years which they could have put a dollar of support into that program and they did not put a single dollar.  Since we have been in power, there are about $10 million of guarantees in place under The Family Farm Protection Act and about $2 million is added each year to that support program.  It helps many, many farmers stay viable on the farm with that kind of support behind them.

       I also would like to tell the member that only about 30 percent of that money is called upon, so the farmers are doing a good job of meeting their commitments under restructured financial situations.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, the minister talks about all the great things he has done, and his programs are in shambles.

       Can the minister explain why he neglected even to do something as obvious as having crop adjusters go out and do a complete inventory of crop carried over from the 1990 crop year before the 1991 harvest which is critical to the success of GRIP?  Why did he not even have something as obvious as that done?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, every year the crop insurance program sends out a questionnaire to farmers to indicate their inventory carryover, every year.  It has been in place like that for many, many years.  No, that person wants to go out and tell the farmers that they cannot fill out an inventory form on their own.  I believe they can and they have.

       I would like to remind him that a crop insurance review is in place, ongoing, across the province of Manitoba right now.  The Minister of Agriculture in Saskatchewan now notices that what we are doing is the right way, and he is following our lead.

 

Civil Service Commission

Political Interference

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

       Manitobans were infuriated to hear that the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) intervened in the hiring of at least one individual into his department.  The Civil Service Commission can only discipline civil servants.  Yet it is quite clear that the minister played a role in the Department of Education violating its hiring agreement.

       It is our role to ensure that the minister is held to account for what he has done.  Will the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) make public the Minister of Education and Training's role on the matter by tabling the Civil Service Commission's investigation report?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act):  Mr. Speaker, I am answering as the minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission.

       As the member for Inkster may be aware, the authority to hire for the Civil Service of the Province of Manitoba is the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission, pursuant to The Civil Service Act.  They have that authority to hire under the rules, as prescribed in The Civil Service Act, which is legislation of this House.

       They have, within their purview, the ability to delegate that specific authority to departments from time to time.  In doing that delegation they have the responsibility of ensuring that it is carried out properly.  If there are errors, discrepancies, difficulties in carrying out that authority, they have the responsibility to ensure that does not happen.

       I would remind members of the House that delegated authority has been withdrawn from departments from time to time.  It was withdrawn from the Department of Education in 1984 when the Honourable Maureen Hemphill was minister and Mr. Ron Duhamel was deputy minister.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, that does not answer the question.

       My supplementary question is to the Premier.  What is the Premier's position on the role ministers play in the hiring of civil servants, given that I have received a number of calls from people concerned with the minister's role in the hiring of others to the certification branch within the Department of Education, people who are friends, a relative and so forth?  What is the government's role‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Praznik:  Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the member for Inkster that the process of hiring, the responsibility of hiring to an independent Civil Service Commission is a process that has been in place in this province for decades.  It works, it provides protection.  It provides protection proven in 1984, proven now.  The Civil Service Commission has that responsibility.  It is their responsibility to ensure it is properly exercised.

       That process has worked.  It has worked not because of stories coming from the media or questions from the opposition. It works because the Civil Service Commission monitors hiring in the Province of Manitoba and enforces those rules.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has a responsibility. The Civil Service is not responsible‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Inkster, with his final supplementary question.

Mr. Lamoureux:  The Premier has a choice, what will it be?  Will he fire the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach)? Will he continue to allow ministers to intervene‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Inkster, kindly rephrase your final supplementary question, please.  Put your question, please.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is, what will it be?  Will he immediately release the report from the Civil Service Commission on why the Department of Education was in violation of its hiring agreement and agree to investigate any new allegations that have been brought forward or fire the minister?

Mr. Praznik:  Again to the member for Inkster, the Civil Service Commission is an independent body.  It has the responsibility for hiring.  It delegates it to a department.  If they have problems with the manner in which that is dealt with in that department, as was the case in 1984 when Mr. Duhamel was the deputy and Ms. Hemphill was the minister, they removed that authority and they worked toward rectifying that problem.  It is the only guarantee for any of us in this House over numerous decades of an independent Civil Service.  It works, Mr. Speaker.

 

Economic Growth

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

       Mr. Speaker, we are suffering a tailor‑made recession, courtesy of Conservative economic policies.  We now have 45,000 workers who are idle with equipment and materials rusting and underutilized.  We have a shrinking labour force, about 6,000 this last year.  In the past year, about 12,000 jobs have disappeared, unemployment insurance claims are increasing faster than in any other province, and welfare cases are skyrocketing in Winnipeg.

       Is the Minister of Finance prepared to introduce any kind of program in this province to get Manitobans working again?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question.  I would like to draw note though to one of the preamble references in respect to investment within our manufacturing sector.  It should be known that, within the province of Manitoba over the last three years, adjusted for inflation, we have had investment increases within our sector of manufacturing at a level of 70 percent above the average for the preceding decade.  Indeed within the context of provinces across Canada, we are within ranking second or third with respect to investment within the manufacturing industry.

       Mr. Speaker, let me go on further to say to the member opposite that certainly through this period of recession, one of the greatest areas of concern certainly falls into the area as to whether or not there is renewal, a generational commitment by way of our existing manufacturers to our province and to the city of Winnipeg.  That seems to be occurring in significant fashion and indeed that is the base upon which economic development will continue to occur through this decade into the next century.

Mr. Leonard Evans:  Mr. Speaker, will this minister acknowledge that Manitoba has not shown any signs of employment growth after nearly four years of this government, with no increase in the number of jobs since 1988, and with Manitoba now averaging the highest level of unemployment this year since the Great Depression?

Mr. Manness  Mr. Speaker, I will not acknowledge that.  What I will acknowledge is that, within the area of manufacturing employment, now we are above the lowest level in the last 20 years.  It happened to occur in 1983 in the months of January, February and March, employment levels of 54,000, and we are above that today.

       Mr. Speaker, let me also say that, in the context of Canada, when one looks at all of those manufacturing provinces, specifically Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba, given massive restructuring throughout industry, we have hit a base on which we are going to be able to build far before those other provinces. That is what is going to put this province in good stead through the remaining decade of the 1990s.

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Provincial Comparisons

       

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Can the Minister of Finance explain why Manitoba's economy continues to slip relative to the other provinces, whereby we are now 10 out of 10 in manufacturing output, 10 out of 10 in housing starts and near the bottom of the heap in construction activity, capital investment, wage increases and employment growth?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I do not accept any of the commentary of the member opposite.  I can only go by the forecasts of those in the financial circles, indeed, the Conference Board of Canada, who for 1992, as they look forward and put Manitoba and relate them to the prospects in other provinces, show that our province is in the area of their forecasts, as the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has said, 4 percent.

       I would not, at this point, want to run to the bank with that type of forecast in all honesty, but nevertheless, when you take the independent forecasters' views into perspective, Manitoba is shown as leading the nation or close to it in context and in terms of 1992.

       I would have to say that the member should be very happy about that type of information and support basically what the government has been trying to do in establishing a base for economic development for the rest of this decade.

 

Civil Service Commission

Political Interference

       

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  These are tough times for most Manitobans, with the high unemployment rates and the deep recession we are in, but apparently not so tough for some Tories.

       I would like to ask the Premier, since there is clear evidence of political interference in the Civil Service hiring process, as evidenced by the actions that have been taken in regard to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), I would like to ask the First Minister, how many positions did that minister interfere in in the hiring process?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act):  Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), the responsibility for hiring is with the Civil Service Commission.  Where they delegate is their responsibility, and ensure that hiring is done properly.  They have a review function.  They review files, and if rules were not properly handled, those competitions are overturned.

       That is the responsibility of the independent Civil Service Commission to conduct those investigations.  They do, and they overturned competitions.  The system works.

Mr. Ashton:  If the minister cannot or will not say how many positions, I will ask another question, and that is‑‑and I believe the First Minister should have a direct response in such matters.

       Can the First Minister indicate what kinds of positions the minister interfered with?  Specifically, did the hiring process which was clearly interfered in lead to any individuals who are not qualified being placed in positions due to the influence of the minister?

Mr. Praznik:  Mr. Speaker, the conduct of those investigations is the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission as an independent body of the commission, and we support that.  If the House is asking for involvement in that process, I do not think that is appropriate.

       The report is a working document of that department, of the commission, but I would remind the member for Thompson that back in 1985 ‑(interjection)‑ I just want to remind the honourable member back in 1985, when the then minister of Highways and Transportation, w