LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, December 12, 1991

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

       

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have been advised by the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) that the honourable member would not like to proceed with Presenting Petitions at this time and would like his name stricken from the Routine Proceedings.  Is it agreed, unanimous consent to have the honourable member's name withdrawn?  Agreed?  Agreed.

       

TABLING OF REPORTS

       

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the Department of Highways and Transportation for the year 1990‑91.

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

       

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House and I have copies for members.

      Mr. Speaker, I have a statement on a matter of major concern to the province of Manitoba and to our ability to provide emergency medical services by air.

      Last Friday, December 6, the federal government's National Transportation Agency notified the Manitoba government air division that the NTA had unilaterally and with no consultation issued a cease and desist order demanding that we stop providing our emergency air ambulance service immediately.

      The basis for the order as we understand it is a jurisdictional issue.  The NTA apparently believes our air services should be under their jurisdiction.  What that would mean is that we would have to operate under the rules which would severely limit our ability to provide emergency services.  More specifically, we could only land at nine of the 35 community airstrips that we now service.  We responded to the NTA order by requesting clarification, and the order was suspended briefly until Monday, when it was reimposed.

      Since that time, I have corresponded twice with the federal minister responsible, the Honourable Jean Corbeil, and spoke to him by phone yesterday afternoon.  I asked Mr. Corbeil to intervene to lift the NTA order until we could sit down at the table and discuss the federal position.  He declined to do so unless we agreed to apply for an NTA licence which, as I said, would severely limit our operations.

      I want to advise the House as I have advised Mr. Corbeil that the government of Manitoba cannot suspend our emergency air services.  The Manitoba government has operated emergency medical services by air for close to 60 years and our current dedicated medi‑vac jet has been operating with no problems whatsoever since 1985.  The first Citation came into service in 1981.  Throughout that time, our service has been recognized throughout North America as among the best of its kind.  There is no safety issue involved here, and I repeat, there is no safety issue involved here.  Our service complies fully with all federal Department of Transport safety regulations.

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      What seems to be involved is a jurisdictional ambition or perhaps stubbornness of one of our federal agencies.  We are hoping to be in court on Friday to ask that the federal order be withdrawn.  In the interim, we cannot risk patients' lives by complying with what we believe to be a totally unacceptable position by the NTA.  Our medi‑vac service has currently transferred about 700 patients a year on emergency flights or an average of close to two a day.  That service must continue.  I will advise the House of further developments as they occur.  I have also tabled copies of my two letters to the federal minister.  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate from the beginning that we feel this is a matter that should have the support of all parties in this House.  The air ambulance service is the life line of many northern communities.  I know if it was not in place and if there had not been developments and improvements in the last number of years to make it a dedicated air ambulance service, that the bottom line is clear.  People would die in the communities.  It is as simple as that.  That is how serious this matter is.

      We may differ in terms of interpretation, quite frankly, as to whether it is strictly a jurisdictional issue, because having seen the federal government move in other northern matters such as cutting back in terms of the Northern Development Agreement, ACCESS funding, aboriginal funding, communications funding, I quite frankly am very suspicious of the federal government when it does anything that affects northern communities.  We do have a different interpretation.

      I would also hope, Mr. Speaker, in the nonpartisan spirit of the minister's statement that we might have a nonpartisan approach in this Chamber in eliminating the $50 user fee that has been put forward on another form of northern transportation, the Northern Patient Transportation, which is equally as important to northern communities.  I hope the minister will lobby his Minister of Health in that regard.

      The bottom line is this is a very, very serious matter.  We are quite willing on this side of the House to work with the minister, if necessary to go down to Ottawa to talk some sense into the federal government, and we wholeheartedly support anything this provincial government can do to reinstate the ambulance service immediately in the form we have come to understand it for the last several decades in this province.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Oui, Monsieur le president. Nous aussi, du Parti liberal, nous sommes prets a assister le gouvernement provincial afin de resoudre ce probleme que vient d'annoncer le ministre du Transport.  C'etait inacceptable de la part du federal de permettre que quelque chose de ce genre arrive aux residents du Nord.  On sait combien le Nord est important, le transport surtout.  Moi‑meme, pour avoir travaille dans le Nord pendant plusieurs annees, je sais ce que ca veut dire que le transport.

      On ne veut pas etre partisans en ce moment.  Mais c'est quand meme regrettable de voir que la decision que le provincial a prise en fait des services a la famille et de la sante, c'est la meme position que la NTA a prise ici.  Mais dans un esprit positif, nous serons la pour supporter le gouvernement afin de renverser cette decision que le gouvernement federal a prise et qui est inacceptable en ce moment.  Merci, Monsieur le president.

(Translation)

Yes, Mr. Speaker, we also from the Liberal Party are prepared to assist the provincial government to resolve this problem which has just been announced by the Minister of Transport.  It was unacceptable for the federal government to allow something like this to happen to northern residents.  We know how important the North is, especially transportation.  Having worked in the North for several years, I know myself just what transportation means.

 We do not want to be partisan at this time.  But it is regrettable to see that the decision that the province made in regard to family services and health is the same one that the NTA has taken here.  But, in a positive spirit, we will be there to support the government in its efforts to overturn the federal government's decision, which is unacceptable at this time.  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

       

Bill 3‑The Interpretation Amendment Act

 

Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 3, The Interpretation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi d'interpretation), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Harper:  I am pleased to present Bill 3, The Interpretation Amendment Act, for first reading.  As members will recall, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report was released on August 29, 1991.  One of the primary recommendations of the report was that the provincial interpretation act be required that all legislation must be interpreted in a manner that does not derogate or adversely affect the rights of aboriginal people. Bill 3 will be a first step in ensuring that Manitoba laws recognize that aboriginal rights are a fundamental aspect of our society.  I welcome support from all parties in early passage of this bill.

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 34‑The Surveys Amendment Act

 

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 34, The Surveys Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'arpentage, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 15‑The Highway Traffic Amendment Act

 

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 15, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, Loi modifiant le Code de la route, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to.

 

Bill 39‑The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act

 

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that Bill 39, The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation "The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital," be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to.

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Introduction of Guests

       

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Grant Park High School, twenty‑seven Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Richard Dooley.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr).

      Also, from the Kildonan East Regional Secondary School, we have fifteen Grades 11 and 12 students.  They are under the direction of Debbie Bugera.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

       

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Economic Growth

Government Priorities

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, over the last few months when we have been out of session, all of us have been listening to people across the province.  Whether it is in a coffee shop or at a farm gate or in a living room or in a northern community, a southern community, a rural community, an urban community, at a plant gate or an executive office, all Manitobans have told us that the No. 1 issue and priority facing Manitobans, indeed facing this country, is to get people working again, to get people working and get Canada working again in this recession.

      Yet today, we note with great concern that the No. 1 priority for the Filmon Conservative government, for the government of the day, is to get social spending under control.  That will be the message the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) takes as our No. 1 priority to the economic conference, the Finance Ministers' Meeting today, not the No. 1 priority from other provinces, Mr. Speaker, because other provinces are saying unemployment and getting people working should be our No. 1 priority.

      I would ask the Premier:  In light of the fact that jobs are mentioned in the Speech from the Throne over five times, what is the No. 1 priority for the province?  Is it jobs as we have been saying, or is it something else that the Minister of Finance is taking down to the Finance Ministers' Meeting now?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne clearly lays out the government's agenda and its priorities.  Economic development and growth and jobs are the No. 1 priority for this province.

 

Finance Ministers' Meeting

Government Agenda

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, then can the Premier explain to the people of Manitoba why his Finance minister (Mr. Manness) is going to Ottawa with a different priority than the priority stated in the Speech from the Throne and stated in this Chamber?

      Why is his Minister of Finance on a different script with a different priority than the priorities that were in the Speech from the Throne that were articulated in this House through constant questions over the last five or six days?  Why does he allow the Minister of Finance to have a separate priority item from the government?  Is it because he is not on the economic board of cabinet or is it because they are not communicating or they have different messages?  Can the Premier please explain that to Manitobans?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I have before me the draft agenda for that Finance Ministers' Meeting and clearly it says Canada's economic situation and prospects is one of the major topics under the heading of economic and fiscal review.  It has the discussion of the First Ministers' Conference on the economy noting my letter to the Prime Minister on it as another one of the topics.  Clearly, there are a number of topics on that agenda and very definitely several of them cover the issue of improvement in the economy, investment, job creation and growth for the future.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the Premier has not answered the question.  His Minister of Finance going to the meeting is saying that the No. 1 priority will be controlling social program costs.  Further, in an interview today on one of the national media outlets, when asked the question of whether the Manitoba government and the Minister of Finance supports the monetarist policies that are leading to high unemployment in this country as contained within the economic unity package of the federal government, the proposal for an economic union, the Minister of Finance stated that he was in support of those policies.  Is this the policy of the Conservatives in Manitoba, to have the same policies that are leading to high unemployment in Canada, in Manitoba, as articulated by his Minister of Finance in Ottawa?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, as a result of the policies of this provincial administration in Manitoba, we have the second lowest unemployment rate in the country today.  Even in the past month, it dropped from 9.4 to 8.7.

      In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, this province is experiencing some of the highest growth in manufacturing employment anywhere in the country.  I will be more specific for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) so that he knows the policies that we subscribe to and indeed the results of those policies.  Manitoba's manufacturing employment in November 1991 was up 1,000 persons from last November and, indeed, 1.7 percent higher than it was during the same period a year‑to‑date year over year 1991 versus 1990.

      I might say to you, during that same period of time Canada as a whole dropped by 7 percent, we grew by 1.7 percent.  In addition to that, the conference board is saying that as a result of our policies next year Manitoba can expect, 1992, a growth rate of 4 percent.  That will be above the national average.

      In addition to that, capital investment is expected to reach in the manufacturing sector $293 million for 1991, up 7.7 percent from last year, the fourth best growth rate of any province in the country as a result of our policies and the direction we are taking.

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Bill C‑20

Government Position

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, I have an urgent matter to raise with the Premier.

      The federal legislation to cut cash payments for health care to the provinces is now before the Senate.  It has passed through the House of Commons.  We have only days if not hours to try to stop the passage of Bill C‑20, when at home this government expresses concern and alarm, as did the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) just a couple of weeks ago.

      Outside of this province this Premier tends to compliment the federal government on its health care financing policies as this Premier did at the First Ministers' meeting in 1989 when he said, on health care financing, your government has taken some promising steps.

      I would like to ask the Premier, will this government, will this Premier who refused to send a member of his government to join me in Ottawa and appear before the federal Finance committee dealing with Bill C‑20, at least now tell us if he is prepared to end the doublespeak, roll up his sleeves, deal with Ottawa head to head and try to stop Bill C‑20 before it is too late?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I might say one of the major topics of the Finance Ministers' Meeting that is going on today in Ottawa, at which our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is representing the province, is federal‑provincial fiscal relations.  With respect to federal‑provincial fiscal relations, they will be talking about equalization renewal.  They will be taking about major transfers on health and post‑secondary education.  They will be talking about our concerns for the unilateral federal cutbacks.

      I might also say that I have said publicly over and over and over again we are opposed to the federal cutbacks, just as opposed as we were when the Trudeau administration began them in the early 1980s when they were accepted, obviously, by the then NDP government of the day. ‑(interjection)‑

      Well, Mr. Speaker, they had no effect on them whatsoever. They may have expressed their differences, but they had no effect.  They were put in by the Trudeau administration, and regrettably they have been carried on by the current federal administration in Ottawa.

      We are opposed to them.  We have said so at every opportunity, every time we have met as First Ministers, every time Finance ministers have met, every time we have had discussions with the Prime Minister or any of his senior ministers.  That opposition remains to those reductions. ‑(interjection)‑ No, I did not.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, and the government has done nothing on Bill C‑20.

      I ask the Premier, where has he been for the last six months when Bill C‑20 was introduced in the House of Commons, a bill which the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) knew all about and did nothing to inform his colleagues to ensure that medicare is preserved.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, the member knows full well, because she has copies of all the communiques that have been issued, that every single meeting that I have attended with other Premiers I have indicated our total opposition to the unilateral federal cuts in health and post‑secondary education.

 

Legal Opinion

     

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, will the Premier, who did not see fit to seek his own legal opinion on Bill C‑20, at least take the most recent legal opinion, that by Goodman and Carr, which states clearly that Bill C‑20 constitutes an invalid attempt by the federal government to regulate the delivery of health care services in the provinces, something that is beyond‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, this government has indicated in the past, even in throne speeches, that we are prepared to address any actions by the federal government with respect to transfers that we believe unilaterally are not only unacceptable but possibly illegal.  We are prepared to take any action that is within our means to oppose those cuts.

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Finance Ministers' Meeting

Social Programs

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, it is very clear what the agenda of the Finance minister is in Ottawa from this province.  He has said very clearly that his No. 1 agenda item is cost containment of social programs.

      Will the Premier tell this House today in addition to the following what other advice is he going to provide to his fellow ministers?  Is he going to suggest that they too freeze 55‑Plus programs, that they too cut high school bursaries for single‑parent moms on welfare?  Are they too to cut training programs in their northern regions?  Are those the kinds of pieces of advice that our Finance minister is going to give to other Finance ministers?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I can tell you one thing that the Finance minister will not be advocating.  He will not be advocating the position of the Liberal Party in this House or the New Democratic Party in this House, which is simply to spend more money and raise taxes at a time when the people of this province are already under great economic pressures, when they are struggling to keep their farms, struggling to keep their homes, struggling to keep their jobs.  The last thing they need is to follow the advice of the Liberal Party and the NDP of this province and that is to spend more money and to raise their taxes.  That advice he will not give.

 

Labour Adjustment Strategy

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):    Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us what advice the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), representing his government, will give to the other Ministers of Finance with respect to the formulation of a national labour adjustment strategy, which is sorely needed in this nation as well as in this province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, this government has consistently indicated that is one of the unfulfilled commitments of the federal government with respect to the various changes that have been taking place in our economy, restructuring and so on, during the past number of years, that a labour adjustment strategy is something we need.  We will consistently carry that message to Ottawa.  It is their responsibility primarily, flowing out of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States, that they will have a federal adjustment strategy with respect to employment.

Mrs. Carstairs:  It obviously was not in the cribnotes of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

 

Social Programs

     

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Would the First Minister of this province tell us if the Minister of Finance is also going to make suggestions to his fellow Finance ministers about "workfare" initiatives?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Despite the fact that issue was raised and recommended to us by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans)‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the NDP believes in work, not welfare.  Never did we ever suggest‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.  It is a dispute over the facts.

* * *

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, as I indicated just moments ago, that the member for Brandon East is quoted in Hansard‑‑

Mrs. Carstairs:  What does that have to do with my question?

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Filmon:  Quite evidently the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) does not realize it was that statement that she is attempting to quote that is generated by the statement that was made‑‑

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Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the rules in Beauchesne's are very clear when it comes to answers, that they should not lead to debate and they should deal with the matter raised.  I am sure the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) would love to debate the issue of economic policy with the Premier, but this is Question Period.  I would like to ask you to call the First Minister to order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Acting Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, the matter that the First Minister was addressing arose out of a question that had to do with a statement made in this House by the member for Brandon East.  I would hope the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) would ask that the same latitude that has been allowed for the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis) also be allowed to other members of this House.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I would maybe ask if the Premier has some qualms with the New Democratic Party on some other unrelated issue that he can call the member into his Premier's office and he can debate it.

      Beauchesne's is very clear.  Beauchesne's says that the reply must be with the question asked.  I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to answer the question put forward by the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs).

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  On the point of order raised, I thank all honourable members for their advice, but I believe the honourable First Minister was attempting to answer the question on the matter that was raised.

* * *

Mr. Filmon:  I realize that this is a very sensitive issue for members opposite.  If they will please refrain from heckling, I will try and get the answer out.

      Mr. Speaker, on Monday of this week the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) said, "Will this government consider now finally or implement an anti‑recession program such as providing jobs for welfare recipients . . . ." ‑‑ jobs for welfare recipients.  Clearly, as anyone would, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) took that as meaning work for welfare recipients. That is what he was suggesting.

      I just want to say to the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) that to my knowledge that is not a matter that is on the agenda of the Finance ministers, and I do not expect that the Minister of Finance of our province will be raising it at that meeting.

     

Port of Churchill

All-Party Committee

       

Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation.  The Port of Churchill is potentially facing permanent closure in just four or five months according to the minister who has failed even to get his Conservative members of Parliament to support Churchill and also nor has he had any support from his cabinet colleagues.

      My question to the minister is:  Will this minister put together an all‑party committee along with the representatives from the bayline communities to go directly to Ottawa to make the case for Churchill?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, the issue of Churchill has been and will continue to be a difficult one.  I want to indicate to the member that this Premier and this government are dedicated to keeping Churchill open and viable.  I want to also indicate that a lot of correspondence and conversations have taken place in the last while about the Port of Churchill.  I addressed it to some degree in my speech to the throne where I put forward some concerns where I had more time.

      I also had discussions with the official critic to some degree indicating the plan of action that I was going to lay out which is basically that Shirley Martin, the Minister of State for Transport, is the one who is responsible for Churchill.  We are arranging a meeting, my colleague the Minister of IT&T (Mr. Stefanson), the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey) and myself.  We are hoping to have that meeting with the federal minister very shortly to bring forward very strong concerns.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to the member that if we do not make proper progress, I think this is not a political issue in this House.  I think we all are on the same side with this issue, that we will take and work together with whomever wants to in terms of trying to resolve it.

Mr. Harper:  My supplementary question to the minister is:  Will he establish an all‑party committee or have representatives of bayline go directly to Ottawa to make the case for Churchill?  In 1988, there was political will, and action was taken by the member for Churchill.

      Why has this minister not taken similar action?

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, I would believe, as elected government representing all Manitobans, that we put forward a position that is on behalf of all Manitobans.  We will continue to do it along that line.

Mr. Harper:  I have a short supplementary.  My question is:  What is the minister prepared to do or what is this government prepared to do to support the Port of Churchill?  I know there has been an announcement with respect to the rocket range and also the northern VIA line is dependent on the opening of the Port of Churchill.

      What is this minister prepared to do?

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, I thought I had outlined the proposal or the direction that we were going to take.  We will be meeting with the federal minister responsible for it, bring forward our concerns.

      Mr. Speaker, I can assure members of the House that if that is something that will enhance our position, that it is an all‑party committee‑‑that has to be the considerable period of time, we will look at that.  We first have to go through a certain process to find out where we are at.

      I have to indicate as I did publicly in this House before that I think it is a very crucial time for decisions regarding Churchill.  We will do whatever we can to make sure that our concerns are brought forward.

 

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry

Report Recommendations

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.  Last week the minister got quite upset when I questioned him as to why there had been no action taken on the AJI report.  Yesterday the Law Reform Commission of Canada released a report stating that provincial and federal governments should start giving aboriginal communities the authority to establish aboriginal justice systems.  This report follows five provincial inquiries into aboriginal justice that made similar recommendations.

      My question is:  When will this minister announce his first change to the justice system as a result of the AJI?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, as we approach this matter, I can set out for the honourable member a chronology of events that have gone on in Manitoba since the receipt of the first draft of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report from the commissioners.  That goes back to August 12 and there are numerous events that have happened since then which I will be reporting publicly within a reasonable period of time.

      Of course, it is going to be interesting to know if the position that the honourable member takes with regard to justice systems in the future in this country will be consistent with the position that he has taken and that others have taken with respect to the Constitutional Task Force report.

 

Judicial System

Aboriginal Participation

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  A supplementary question to the same minister:  Why is it so difficult for this government to announce that it intends to ensure that the number of aboriginal people working in all areas of the justice system from probation services to courtrooms will be increased, or that changes will be made for example to the circuit courts immediately?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  I have no hesitation in acknowledging, Mr. Speaker, that this government has done a much better job than previous governments in this province in raising the level of aboriginal participation in the delivery of justice services in Manitoba.  If the honourable member wants to sit down with me we can compare notes about how things went with Roland Penner and Victor Schroeder as compared with what has been happening the last three and a half years.  I will be proud to show that information to the honourable member, but I acknowledge that much, much more needs to be done.

      The honourable member is no doubt referring to what is going to be coming, and I can tell him that within the next weeks he will be hearing more about this.  I will be happy to sit down and show the honourable member with people involved in my department to show the increase in aboriginal participation in the delivery of justice services in Manitoba.

Mr. Lathlin:  Mr. Speaker, we are not asking for a review to be done on studies.

 

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry

Report Recommendations

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  My last question is again to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae).  Can the minister table a document today or with a given time frame in the future that would outline a clear plan of action as to how he proposes to implement the recommendations which are contained in the AJI report?

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Mr. Speaker, in the near future.  I say to the honourable member, however, that the honourable member during the three years that it took the judges to prepare this report, I do not recall him ever urging the judges to hurry up and get on with it.  Those judges, in the work that they were doing, were doing the important work or researching the issues involved and listening to the people here in Manitoba respecting aboriginal justice.

      Now it comes time to do something, I have to tell the honourable‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. McCrae:  If the honourable member and his colleagues are interested in hearing the response to an important question, I suggest they sit and listen to the answer that I am going to give, Mr. Speaker.

      When it is time to do something, rather than study as has been done for the past three years‑‑these things do take some time, the honourable member ought to recognize that‑‑I think he will find the announcements that do flow will be far more substantive than even he thinks is possible and certainly more substantive than Howard Pawley, Al Mackling, Roland Penner‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Conawapa Dam Project

Contract Validity

 

Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld), and again, we would like to congratulate the minister on his unusual candour.

      This week he told us that Manitoba could not get out of a power deal with the Ontario government, and furthermore, if he knew back in 1989 what he knows today, he would have to think very long and hard about signing the agreement with Ontario.

      The minister may not be as trapped as he thinks.  Clause 1301 of the agreement with Ontario reads, and I quote, this agreement is subject to Ontario Hydro obtaining approval of the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council of Ontario and Manitoba Hydro obtaining the approval of the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council of Manitoba on or before January 31, 1990, for the respective party to enter into this agreement.

      I have a copy of an Order‑in‑Council, which I will table, from the government of Ontario which is dated March 21, 1990, some six weeks after the deadline in provision 13 of the contract.  Does this not make the contract between Ontario and Manitoba null and void?

Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act):  Mr. Speaker, I would not pretend to pass legal judgment on an agreement or an Order‑in‑Council passed by the Ontario government.  I would suggest that we leave that to the lawyers to decide.

Mr. Carr:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister consult his lawyers immediately and write a letter to the Minister of Energy of the Province of Ontario indicating that the Manitoba government now is in possession of a substantial breach in the power sale agreement with Ontario?

Mr. Neufeld:  Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that Ontario is in breach of a contract.  I will undoubtedly be asking Manitoba Hydro to bring the contract to my office and we will ask Manitoba Hydro to get legal opinion with respect to the lateness of the Order‑in‑Council being passed.

Mr. Carr:  Mr. Speaker, since the minister has already said on the record this week that he regrets the deal and that he would treat the deal differently if he had the information that he has today, will he now agree to call or write or otherwise contact the Minister of Energy of Ontario and immediately renegotiate the power deal with that province?

Mr. Neufeld:  Mr. Speaker, I think I had better correct the member for Crescentwood.  I have never said I regret the deal. What I have said is if I knew in 1989 what I knew today I would have difficulty recommending the building of Conawapa to the cabinet of this government.  As far as contacting the Minister of Energy in Ontario, it is something that I have considered, but I think if we are going to do that we will not do that publicly. We will have to do that privately.  I do not think we can negotiate any deal or out of any deal in public.

 

GRIP Program

Government Position

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, over the past year this Minister of Agriculture has stubbornly defended and promoted GRIP even when confronted by the farmers of Manitoba and by the opposition daily in this House.  He has defended the premiums, he has defended the 15‑year moving average, which is not based on the cost of production.  He has refused to acknowledge the unfair treatment of farmers in the southwest corner of this province and of those farmers who have not been on crop insurance previous to joining GRIP.

      Will the minister now listen to the farmers and acknowledge that GRIP is a failure as it now stands and if so, will he indicate to this House what action he is prepared to take to correct those problems?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, over the course of the last 15 months I have probably met with 20, 25, maybe 30 different farm groups, organizations and associations of people on GRIP and the kind of support that they want in rural Manitoba.  We have responded in a substantive way.

      The member says lack of support in southwest Manitoba.  We responded to their concerns and gave them area average coverage as a minimum for 1991, which is what they asked for and what they received.  The level of income supplied in GRIP is to offset some of the shortfall because of a grain trade war and we will continue to have that coverage in place.  Manitoba is the only province to have their signatories to the GRIP national committee go out and meet with farmers in public meetings.  This is the only province to do that.  We are asking for direct input which the signatories will then take to the national committee which then will make recommendations to the federal‑provincial ministers.  We are proactive in responding to what the farmers of this province want.

 

Premium Increase

       

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, since nearly 40 percent of the farm families are paying a penalty of 11 percent by this minister under crop insurance, his words ring hollow.

      Will the minister explain how he can justify up to a 6 percent lower coverage under GRIP for next year and a 35 percent increase in farmers' premiums for the coming crop year when this program has not even met their needs in the current year?  How can he justify this kind of policy?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  All the farmers in the grains and oilseeds sector have lived in this province and this country for years and years and years, depending on the marketplace.  That is what they want to produce to and respond to.

      The marketplace has failed them fairly significantly because of the grain trade war.  This program has been put in place to offset some of that hurt.  Those farmers have always had to determine their cost of production by the decisions they make in the choices of crops they choose and the kind of inputs they put in and the technology they put behind their farming practices. That has not changed at all.  We give them one more, I guess, a crutch to lean on in terms of GRIP, in terms of being able to make those decisions.  We have a crop insurance review in place in the province of Manitoba, again, the only province in western Canada to go through this process.

      If the member's statements are true, they will come out through the review and the recommendations will come back.

Mr. Plohman:  The minister is not denying lower coverage and higher premiums next year, Mr. Speaker.

 

Crop Insurance

Crop Adjuster Salaries

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  In view of the fact farmers desperately need off‑farm income to survive, why is this minister now threatening to throw 200 crop adjusters, who are mostly farmers in rural Manitoba, out of work unless they sign a contract forcing them to take an 80 percent cut in pay?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  I am not asking anybody to do what he is alleging.

      The Crop Insurance Corporation strikes an agreement with the people who work for them, whether it is the employees or whether it is the per diems they hire to do various jobs.  I will ask the Crop Insurance Corporation what contract he is talking about.

 

Gas Utilities

Monthly Fixed Charge

 

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

      The gas company's $10 per month fixed monthly charge provides a lightning rod of anger against the gas company.  Elimination of the gas company's fixed monthly charge of $10 a month in favour of a commodity charge would promote conservation with people who conserve gas in paying less.  The Premier promised that much on page 3841 in Hansard on June 25 of this year when he said:  " . . . I want the NDP to save $10 a month for every senior in this building by passing Bill 44."

      My question to the minister is:  Why does the minister support the fixed gas charge?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the PUB controls the rates set for the public for several utilities, this being one of them.  The fixed charge is a charge set by Centra Gas that will cover their standing ongoing expenses, their overhead, bookkeeping and so on.

      The bill we introduced to help collect the delinquent accounts I believe will see the consumer saving a great deal of money, not necessarily directly in what they are paying out but in what they will not have to pay out, perhaps both.  Certainly $10 a month is the minimum; I think that they would be a bit ahead.

Mr. Maloway:  The minister is obviously unaware that the PUB‑‑

* (1420)

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Elmwood, kindly put your supplementary question now, please.

Mr. Maloway:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister explain why the PUB at this very moment is making a decision as to whether or not they are going to eliminate the fixed charge and why she has not at this point made representation to them on this matter?

Mrs. McIntosh:  The PUB is structured to work independently. That is the whole purpose of the PUB.  For the minister to direct the PUB to make any particular decision would be gross interference and most inappropriate.

Mr. Maloway:  Mr. Speaker, when will the minister make herself available and make representation to the PUB before this decision is made in the next couple of days?

Mrs. McIntosh:  Mr. Speaker, I believe the answer I gave to the same question a moment ago still covers the same question.

 

Government Reports

Environment Friendly Products

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment.

      Yesterday in this House, the Farm Lands Ownership Board Annual Report was tabled, Mr. Speaker.  It starts by duplicating the front page.  Then there are three pages with various pictures of officials including the minister, one sentence letters.  Then ther