LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Friday,
December 13, 1991
The House met at 10 a.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to table the 1990‑91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Farm Mediation
Board.
INTRODUCTION
OF BILLS
Bill 20‑The
Municipal Assessment Amendment Act
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services and the
honourable member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 20, The Municipal
Assessment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'evaluation municipale, be
introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.
Motion agreed to.
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister
of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 35, The City of
His
Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of
this bill, recommends it to the House. I
would like to table that message.
Motion presented.
Mr. Ernst: This bill is the bill necessary for the
remedial action to deal with the City of
It
is my intention to ask leave of the House on Monday, immediately following
Question Period, to have the Throne Speech Debate suspended so we can have
second reading of Bill 35. Assuming Bill 35 then passes second reading, we will
ask leave of the House on Monday evening to have a committee sit concurrently
with the House and to hear public representations with respect to Bill 35 and
again on Tuesday morning, if it is deemed necessary to have additional time to
hear representations. Following that, on
Tuesday, immediately following Question Period, we will again ask leave of the
House in order to suspend the Throne Speech Debate for a period of time in
order to deal with third reading and Royal Assent for the bill.
Point of
Order
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
(Second Opposition House Leader): On a
point of order, because he did touch briefly on some House business and I would
just ask for clarification for our purposes.
That is‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
The honourable member is asking for some clarification. First we will dispense of first reading and
then we will get the clarification.
* * *
Mr. Speaker: First reading of Bill 35, it is agreed? Agreed and so ordered.
Point of
Order
Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the minister for clarification, we
understand now that the printed form of the English version would be made
available for all those who are interested for today, is that correct?
Mr. Ernst: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not. I have undertaken to meet with the critics of
both the opposition parties to discuss a draft of the bill. The final bill information is not yet
available. I will be discussing it
immediately following the closure of the House today with the opposition
critics appropriate methods of dealing with the concerns that have been raised
to me by those critics.
* (1005)
Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable minister
for the clarification.
Bill 38‑The
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 38, The
Manitoba Evidence Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la preuve au
Motion agreed to.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this
morning from the
Also
this morning, from the Teulon Collegiate, we have thirty Grade 11
students. They are under the direction
of Mr. Ed Masters. This school is
located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).
On
behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this morning.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Child
Poverty
Government
Initiatives
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this morning we received
shocking news really, news that I think should be a concern for all members of
this Chamber.
The
National Welfare Council of Canada has just reviewed child poverty in our
country and has determined in its statistics that
The
committee goes on to recommend‑‑the committee presented to Ottawa‑‑recommends
a number of improvements and actions that are also available to provinces to
take to alleviate child poverty, talking about education, talking about child
care programs, talking about housing programs, talking about employment
programs.
I would
ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) what action is his government going to take to
change the situation where
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.
Doer) is quite right in quoting the study.
The reality is that among other things the study noted that worst off
are Native children; half live in poverty.
As
the member is well aware, the proportion of Native children in
* (1010)
We
all are concerned with that problem.
That is why the study, I might say, is primarily focused at federal
issues because the issue of poverty with respect to Native children has to be
primarily addressed by the federal government, with their primary
responsibility for Native children and for the economic well‑being of the
Native people of this country.
We
will indeed work co‑operatively with the federal government and all
levels of government on any programs, whether they be education, whether they
be social programs, health care programs, any programs designed to eradicate
poverty with respect to the children of our province.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, many of the programs that the
report deals with deals with areas under provincial jurisdiction, under
jurisdiction of areas of this Premier (Mr. Filmon): Housing, child care, employment, education,
the whole infrastructure in our province that ministers across the way are
responsible for, so I asked a very specific question. I did not ask the Premier to explain the
statistics. I understand that there is a
joint challenge for all of us. What I
asked the Premier is, what action are we going to take in this House? Yesterday we had the Minister of Finance (Mr.
Manness) saying the solution to our problems is to cut social programs and to
control social costs in our province when we have numbers showing the child
poverty rate is the worst in
My
question to the Premier: What action is
his government going to take in these areas under provincial jurisdiction, many
of which are listed in the report?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as I said, we will examine the
report and examine all avenues for our involvement in it, but he makes my point
when he talks about housing, when he talks about education as they apply to
Natives. The primary area of funding and
responsibility is from the federal government, and that is why the matter
cannot be looked at in isolation without knowing the background for it. I mean, if one were to just take statistics
and use them indiscriminately without understanding what is behind them, then
one could not solve the problem.
I
am just asking the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), in the spirit of co‑operation
that he espouses, to allow us to look in depth at the problem and to seek co‑operation
and help where it is not only necessary but where it is vital to the solution
of the problem.
Mr. Doer: First of all, Mr. Speaker, poverty is across
all of
Every day we have been bringing out economic
indicators of lack of job opportunities.
Today again we have a 13 percent decline in the value of manufacturing
shipments in
What specific action is this Premier (Mr.
Filmon) and this government going to take so that the situation where we are 10
out of 10 can be changed and we can start improving the lot of all Manitobans
facing poverty in our province?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, again the Leader of the
Opposition makes my point for me. He is
wanting to allege that things are worse in
We
are not suggesting that there are not needs to address the problems that are
out there. I will say this, that we are
increasing social allowance rates; we are increasing programs, and I might say
we are not doing what the NDP did when they were in government and one year
they increased social allowance rates only 2 percent. Shocking, absolutely shocking. At a time when their own revenues were rising
at double digit rates, they increased welfare 2 percent‑‑shocking.
Those are the kinds of things that build up
over many, many years and we are attempting to look at it in the broadest
possible context, with the interests of the children at heart. We will examine
every possible avenue to improve the situation, the unfortunate situation that
many of our children find themselves in.
Food Banks
Increased
Use
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, there is ample evidence that the
recession is over, the depression has begun.
* (1015)
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): The
member is well aware that we announced some new initiatives recently to do with
the allowances for social allowance recipients.
We have increased allowances by 3.6 percent on the basic needs and
created a new program in very difficult times to give additional funding to the
disabled. The food banks are a reality
and in many communities this is work that people do through their churches and
through organizations at this time of the year.
It is sad that we have food banks, and I note in
We
will work with our social allowance recipients and continue to enhance our
programs, and again I am pleased that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale)
has supported us on the tax credit initiative in his speech last year.
Social
Assistance
Rate
Increase
Mr. Doug Martindale
(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, why did the Minister of Family
Services raise social assistance rates by 3.6 percent when the average for the
year, for the consumer price index over 12 months, was 5.3 percent? Why does the minister allow the poor to fall
further and further behind so that social assistance is no longer the program
of last resort?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, we looked at the year over year cost of living from October of 1990‑91,
and the increase in the cost of living was 3.6 percent. I dare say I expect the cost of living in the
Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Family
Services announce changes and improvements to the Manitoba benefits because
there are areas in which we are the worst in
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The member is aware that historically changes
in the rates have been announced at this time of the year and, again, I am
pleased that even in these difficult times we were able to raise the rates by
3.6 percent. I would readily concede to
the member there are other issues that we work on within the department and
that come before the department from time to time and, hopefully, in ensuing months
we will be able to make further announcements with regard to social allowance
recipients.
Again, as is evidenced across this country, it
is difficult for some provinces to find the funds to raise those rates.
* (1020)
First
Ministers' Conference
Government
Agenda
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would caution the First
Minister about suggesting that poverty is a Native problem because it is a
problem that crosses and affects, I think, most people in this province or
certainly a majority of people in this province.
The
effects of it are felt in every part of the province as the existence of these
new food banks shows. I would ask the
First Minister (Mr. Filmon) this. It was
Ken Battle from the National Welfare Council at a workshop I was at recently
who, himself, said that we have to raise the economy, that we have to get the
economy going if we are going to address these issues.
The
Premier (Mr. Filmon) has been invited to a First Ministers' conference, and I
would like to know what specific recommendations he is going to take to that
conference?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I would suggest to the
member for Osborne that I have not said that poverty is a problem confined only
to Native people. I quoted from the
report on the study that said, worst off are Native children, half live in
poverty. I have said that there are
many, many people who live in poverty in this province. We regret that whether it applies to one or
to any number and regardless of race or background or culture or whatever have
you, we have to address it as a problem throughout the economy and throughout
society.
Yes, indeed, we are very happy that the Prime
Minister has accepted the recommendation that I have made, as well as other
First Ministers that he have a First Ministers' conference on the economy.
Mr.
Speaker, among other things, we will be talking with the Prime Minister about
the need to look globally at the problems that face us in
It
would be the worst thing, I think, for various provinces and various regions to
be going at the problems that we face as an economy on different tacks and, in
fact, being counterproductive and conflicting in the solutions that we
pursue. That is one of the things, a co‑ordination
of economic policy initiatives to work together and a desire to work together,
so that all of us are pursuing the resolution of a problem that is affecting
all provinces and all regions.
Mr. Alcock: Will the First Minister be taking to
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, since yesterday was just the
first confirmation and I have not received it from the Prime Minister, I have
received it essentially through media, we have heard a potential date. ‑(interjection)‑
As a matter of fact, he did call yesterday, and I was unavailable. I expect that I will be hearing from him
today.
Mr.
Speaker, there will be a variety of recommendations. I might say First Ministers in the past, in
fact the last two Premiers' conferences carried forth the kind of
recommendation that the member for Osborne‑‑increasing, in fact I
believe we talked about doubling our commitment to R&D as one of the
commitments for the 1990s, getting us into the area that we, as a province, are
committed to with the new Economic Innovation and Technology Council that we
have formed is aimed at directly that particular initiative, to increase our
emphasis on research and development and the development of industries and job
creation in the higher technology areas for our province. We believe that that applies across the
country.
Economic
Growth
Investment
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Does the First Minister believe that it is
time for a significant increase in investment in this province to bring us out
of this depression?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, indeed we
do and indeed that is what the announcement by Medix about two weeks ago
involves, an investment in the medical product field that commercializes some
inventions and developments that have come out of our medical and scientific
community in
That is precisely what is involved in the
Apotex announcement in which Apotex is bringing the manufacture of chemicals,
prime quality chemicals, for the pharmaceutical industry, a new plant with an
initial investment of $20 million and a total investment of $50 million to
* (1025)
Economic
Growth
Employment
Creation Strategy
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): I have a question for the Premier. The Royal Bank is warning that the recession
is not over and could continue into late 1992.
Mayor Norrie of
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Brandon
East for his question. I might say that
we too read economic forecasts from a whole variety of sources. Although we believe
Despite the fact that the entire country is in
a recession,
We
are doing as well as can be expected under the circumstances, but more
particularly
Antirecession
Task Force
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I do not think the minister
answered the question. I would hope he
would reconsider.
Would the Premier be prepared to establish an
antirecession task force to explore ways and means to fight the current
recession given that economists and forecasting agencies are predicting a
continuation of the recession? I note
now department store sales in
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, this is the ultimate all‑party
committee for looking at the problems of the
* (1030)
Mr.
Speaker, we on this side want to work in a positive and co‑operative
fashion. We are out there consulting
with people from all sectors of the economy and society. We have gone on cabinet tours during the past
three months to various areas of the province, to the North, to the central, to
the southern
Mr. Leonard Evans: Is the Premier prepared to work together
consultatively right now with business, labour and other parties, to prepare a
position to go to
Mr. Filmon: I am scheduled to meet with and speak with
the Chamber of Commerce next week. We
have met within the last few weeks with the Union of Manitoba
Municipalities. We have met with various
other groups. We are meeting with the
Manitoba Federation of Labour, I believe, within the next 10 days, Mr. Speaker. We are going to be working with all groups in
society, with all sectors in society to seek a common resolution to the
problems that face us. It is going to
take all of us working together to get ourselves out of the recession in a
healthy fashion.
Mr.
Speaker, I will just repeat again that driving up taxes to the second highest
level in
Repap
Manitoba Inc.
Employment
Creation
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
My
question is to the minister responsible for Repap: When can the people of
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might remind the member for
In
this recession, Mr. Speaker, not only are Repap's employment levels higher than
they were when Manfor was being run by the NDP, but we do not have a $32‑million
bill to be paid for by the taxpayers of this province.
Environmental
Assessment
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
To
the same minister. Why can this
government not get its act together with the federal government and get on with
the environmental review that has been promised but not acted on? That is what
has to happen, and Repap is hiding behind the environmental review.
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might just say for the
edification of the member for
I
might say, Mr. Speaker, as well, that we are very anxious to have the
environmental assessment and review proceed on Repap's next phase of the
project. The member for
Contract
Obligations
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (
Will the Premier tell the House when the
government is going to insist that Repap fulfills its commitments of a permanent
chipper, of a maintenance facility, of jobs to
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that
Repap is awaiting opportunities to go before a full environmental assessment
and review. Repap, like every other pulp
and paper company in
It
is very parallel to the situation that farmers are facing and, despite those
circumstances, the taxpayer has not had to pick up a nickel of it, Repap is
absorbing those losses. Unlike the
situation that occurred when the NDP were running Manfor and they lost $32
million in one year of taxpayers money, Mr. Speaker.
Conawapa
Dam Project
Legal
Opinion
Mr. James Carr
(Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister
responsible for Manitoba Hydro. All week
the minister has mused aloud about the wisdom of signing a power deal between
Hon. Harold Neufeld
(Minister responsible for The
The
Order‑in‑Council substantially allows the Ontario Hydro to enter
into an agreement with
Now, Mr. Speaker, we have asked and are
awaiting a reply from our solicitors whether or not the second Order‑in‑Council
was indeed necessary.
Surplus
Power
Mr. James Carr
(Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, since the date of the Order‑in‑Council
is prior to the date of the contract signed between Manitoba Hydro and Ontario
Hydro, the minister may well want to ask for legal opinion on that subject.
Mr.
Speaker, since the latest projections are now that
Hon. Harold Neufeld
(Minister responsible for The
Public
Utilities Board
Review
Mr. James Carr
(Crescentwood): Since the economic model given to the Public
Utilities Board by Manitoba Hydro assumed that there would be a need in
Mr. Speaker: Question, please.
Mr. Carr: ‑‑does the minister not now
believe that the situation is sufficiently different to go back to the Public
Utilities Board all over again?
Hon. Harold Neufeld
(Minister responsible for The
Government
Reports
Environment
Friendly Products
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I took as notice a question
yesterday on the environmental report that had been prepared. I would like to inform the House and the
member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), who asked the question, that indeed the
environmental report was done on recycled paper; however, it was glossy
recycled paper.
The
reason for that was because the Queen's Printer did not have in stock enough
nonglossy recycled paper. I understand
all of that stock is there now and every report that has been done since June
of 1991 has been on recycled paper. In
the future, if we indeed have enough nonglossy recycled paper, all reports will
be printed on that.
* (1040)
Western
Canadian Wildlife Service
Oak Hammock Marsh Report
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, this government is making
international news. It is too bad it is
because they are being criticized for paving over wetlands with their
environmentally backward project at Oak Hammock Marsh with Ducks Unlimited.
A
number of us who are opposed to the project and the waste of $4 million of
public money have been urging the federal Minister of Environment to get
involved and finally he has. My question
is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
Does he have the report presented to the
Minister of Environment by the Western Canadian Wildlife Service? Has he asked for the report? Is he aware of this report? Will he table the report in the House?
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, no.
Oak Hammock Conservation
Centre Environmental Assessments
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): I would urge the minister to inquire about‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member kindly put your
question now, please.
Ms. Cerilli: ‑‑the environmental impact
assessment by the federal government on this project, will the Premier withhold
the over $2 million in
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): The member for Radisson continues to ignore
the fact that this project was the subject of a very extensive environmental assessment
and review process before the Clean Environment Commission. This project got a more thorough review than
any project that was ever done under a New Democratic administration.
They did projects like Limestone without any
environmental assessment and public review process. They were prepared to issue licences. Repap, at The Pas when it was in its former
incarnation at Manfor, they allowed it to pollute the ground. We have spent millions of dollars cleaning it
up. They never had an environmental
assessment and review process.
Despite all of that, we have gone for the full
environmental assessment and review.
Based on that third party objective review at which every one of the
criticisms she has attempted to place on that project in this House, every one
of the criticisms was placed on the table, was considered and yet the project
was approved.
I
believe the process should prevail. It
should not be politically motivated by anybody in this House, Mr. Speaker.
Ms. Cerilli: I would like to table a copy of what this
government's money is going to: plastic
wrap on DU propaganda.
My
final supplementary, Mr. Speaker: How
can this government maintain‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Save your question.
Point of
Order
Hon. Darren Praznik (Acting
Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I
believe the rules of the House are clear that supplementary questions are to be
used to clarify the initial answer of the minister to whom a first question was
addressed. Obviously, there has been a great deal of latitude taken in this
case by the member for Radisson.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member was just going to put
her question.
The
honourable acting government House leader does not have a point of order.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition
House Leader): On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker.
I
would also ask if you would remind the ministers, particularly the First
Minister (Mr. Filmon), of Beauchesne's Citation 417, one of the key aspects of
which says that answers should not provoke debate. The Premier seems to be engaging in not
answering questions engaging in debate, and one would expect that opposition
members will respond and try and clarify some of that. What is happening is we are having a
continuing abuse from the Premier and from ministers‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
I would like to remind the honourable opposition House leader that a
point of order should be raised at the time the infraction did occur. The honourable opposition House leader did
not have a point of order.
* * *
The
honourable member for Radisson, put your question now, please.
Government
Credibility
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the
government.
How
can this government maintain any environmental credibility when they are
bulldozing ahead with this project when there is injunction in the courts and
when there are dozens of environmental groups opposed to the project?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): I guess that a New Democrat should ask how
could the New Democratic Party of Manitoba have any environmental credibility
when they would go forward with the largest project ever developed in the
history of this province, Limestone, with no public environmental assessment
and review process, that they would operate without an environmental licence
Manfor at The Pas at a time when it was dumping oil, when it was bunker sea oil
into the ground, when it was polluting good soil, when it was polluting‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
There is a point of order going to be raised.
Point of
Order
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): Similar to the point
I raised earlier and I am raising at this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, in regard
to answers being brief and relating to the question raised and not involving
debate, the Premier is once again clearly violating our sections of Beauchesne
in terms of answers. I am asking you to
call him to order and answer the very specific questions asked by the member.
Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would like to
remind the honourable First Minister, brevity both in question and in answers
is of great importance.
The
honourable First Minister to finish his response.
*