LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, December 17, 1991

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m

       

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES

     

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present (by leave) the First Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) have leave to present the report which is actually 24 hours early?  Does the honourable member have leave?

Some Honourable Members:  Leave.

Mr. Speaker:    Leave?  It is agreed.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  To the honourable Legislative Assembly of Manitoba:

     Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following as its First Report.

     Your committee met on Monday, December 16, 1991, at 8 p.m., and Tuesday, December 17, 1991, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred.

     Your committee heard representation on Bill 35, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg, as follows:

     Mr. Michael Mercury      Manitoba Trucking Association     Mr. Steve Childerhouse   Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce     Mr. Sydney R. Wolchock   Private Citizen     Councillor George Fraser St. Charles Ward (City of Winnipeg)     Mr. Frank Pattie         Great‑West Life     Mayor Bill Norrie,       City of Winnipeg       Councillor Greg Selinger       and Mr. Bill Carroll     Councillor Allan Golden  Glenlawn Ward (City of Winnipeg)

     Your committee has considered Bill 35, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg, and has agreed to report the same with the following amendment:

 Motion:

     THAT the proposed section 26 of Schedule D, as set out in section 5 of the Bill, be amended

     (a) by renumbering subsection 26(4) as subsection 26(5); and

     (b) by adding the following as subsection 26(4):

     Appeal of notice mailed after November 1, 1991     26(4)  Notwithstanding subsection (3), where the notice of     application for revision referred to in subsection (3) is     given or mailed between November 1, 1991 and the date on     which royal assent is given to the Act by which this     provision is enacted, the right to make application for     revision for the 1991 licence fee in lieu of business tax is     deemed to expire 30 days after the date on which royal assent     is given to the Act by which this provision is enacted.

     All of which is respectfully submitted.

Mrs. Dacquay:  I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

     

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I have three reports to table.

     I have the Annual Financial Report for the year ended March 31, 1991, for Brandon University, the Financial Statements for the year ended March 31, 1991, for the University of Winnipeg and the Annual Report 1991 for the University of Manitoba.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  I have some tablings, Mr. Speaker:  the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Three Month Report for the period April 1 to June 30, 1991; also, the Six Month Report for the period April 1 to September 30, 1991; and also, Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, both the First Quarter Report for the period April to June 1991 and the Six Month Report for the period April to September 1991.

     

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

 

Bill 41‑The Manitoba Telephone Amendment Act

     

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), that Bill 41, The Manitoba Telephone Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur le telephone au Manitoba, be introduced and that the same be now received and read for the first time.

Motion presented.

Ms. Cerilli:  This bill will deal with the problem that I think everyone is aware of that the Manitoba Telephone System has been abused by white supremist groups for distributing hate messages to a number of groups, minority groups and individuals.  We feel that, by incorporating some of the same language that is in The Human Rights Code, The Manitoba Telephone Act can be strengthened to prohibit this kind of activity.

Motion agreed to.

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Bill 40‑The Human Rights Code Amendment Act

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), that Bill 40, The Human Rights Code Amendment Act; Loi modifiant le Code des droits de la personne, be introduced and that the same be now received and read for the first time.

Motion presented.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, this is again to make sure that we can stop the use of the telephone system to discriminate, to threaten people, to promote racial hatred.  What we were trying to do is to incorporate some of the language from the federal Human Rights Code into our Manitoba Human Rights Code.

Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests

       

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Darwin School, sixty Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Mr. Tim Waters.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme).

     On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Economic Growth

Employment Creation Strategy

     

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, on three occasions this last six or seven days in Question Period, the Premier said that Manitoba will be performing at a rate of 4 percent growth and we will be above the national average.  He said that on December 9.  He said that on December 12.  He said that again on December 6 in answers to questions in this Chamber.

     Regrettably today, in spite of the fact that in the last week and a half we have heard of hundreds of further job losses in Manitoba, we hear some other bad news.  The Toronto Dominion Bank has just put out its preliminary forecast for 1992.  It totally repudiates the position the Premier has taken about Manitoba growing above the national average.  In fact, it is calling on Manitoba's growth rate to be below the national average for 1992.  It is also saying that Manitoba will have an unemployment rate of 8.6 percent all through 1992, which would be close to 52,000 Manitobans being unemployed.

     I would ask the Premier today, in light of this crisis and in light of what is going on in the province of Manitoba where we are going to perform below the national average, Mr. Speaker, will he now bring in a new action plan to deal with the high unemployment rates in the province and to deal with the crisis that Manitobans are facing all across our province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, because I knew that the prophet of gloom and doom opposite, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), would always be seeking out the worst possible economic forecasts because that lines up with his hopes for the future of this province, I did say very carefully here in this House that there are a range of projections and forecasts that are made. Indeed, I have the entire range if he wants it, in this book, some seven or eight different economic forecasts made by the major banks.

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     When the member opposite was in government, he traditionally used the Conference Board as the think‑tank that had the most credibility and that was least involved with the economy in the sense that the banks are all customers of the province.  I used the Conference Board.  The Conference Board clearly did say‑‑and I repeatedly referenced the Conference Board.  I did not say everybody said that.  I said the Conference Board was projecting 4 percent growth in 1992 for Manitoba, above the national average.

     I might say he has said that there will be an unemployment rate of 8.6 percent.  I just refer him to the economic forecast statement that was put out by his New Democratic soul mate in Ontario just a week ago today.  It is the projection for the province of Ontario by Floyd Laughren, the finance minister.  It suggests that throughout the period of time, 1992 to 1995, a four‑year period, they are projecting 3.6 percent growth for that entire period of time.  That is the best they can do, which is about half of the growth they experienced during the 1980s.

     They are suggesting as well, Mr. Speaker, that unemployment for Ontario will be 9.3 percent under a New Democratic government.

     

Budget Introduction Date

       

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  I am not even going to get into it.  The growth rates are predicted in B.C. and Ontario to be much, much higher than Manitoba for 1992, but there is still a lot of misery in all our country.  There is still a lot of misery now predicted in Manitoba, and this Premier is whistling past the graveyard.

     In the Premier's own letter to the Prime Minister calling on the economic summit of First Ministers in Canada, he calls on an economic strategy that will encourage development and diversification of economies in all regions.  He calls on a national industrial and economic strategy; ironically, he mentions things in that strategy that he has in fact cut in his own last year's budget.

     I would ask the Premier:  In light of the crisis, and it is very serious, will the Premier now bring in a budget in the early new year to deal and develop an economic strategy for Manitobans who are out of work, cannot find work and are predicted not to find work, consistent with the advice the First Ministers are giving the Prime Minister?  Will the Premier do this in Manitoba, bring in a budget the first week in January to get people back working in this province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House have been working very, very hard to move the timetable up from bringing in budgets so that, in 1990, for instance, we were not able to have a budget passed in this House until October of that year, about halfway through the fiscal year.

     Last year, we were able to move that forward with a great deal of hard work and effort so that, in late April, we were able to pass a budget.  As a result, again, of the hard work and effort that has been put in by Treasury Board, it is our expectation that we will be dealing with the new budget early in March and, with the co‑operation of members opposite, will be well before the start of the next fiscal year.  We will have an opportunity to have a budget on the table, Mr. Speaker, that will be our best efforts to address the very serious issues that are facing the country.  Right across Canada, there is a recession that is ravaging provinces.

     I repeat that, in the province of Ontario, they say in their statement:  Although Ontario accounts for 38 percent of the national labour force, the province accounted for roughly 80 percent of the jobs lost in Canada during that period, under a New Democratic government.

     In one year, Mr. Speaker, 80 percent of the jobs lost in Canada were lost in Ontario, despite the fact they are only 36 percent of the labour force.  We are working very hard, Mr. Speaker, to bring in a budget that addresses the concerns that are out there‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

     

Economic Growth

Public Consultations

 

 Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Unlike the Premier opposite, the Premier of Ontario, when he was in opposition, did not support the Free Trade Agreement with the United States, but this Premier went hand in hand with the Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, in the last federal election ‑(interjection)‑ Free trade is working very well; just ask most Manitobans.  That is the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Manness) response to the crisis.

     Mr. Speaker, the Premier further states in his letter to the Prime Minister that we should be working closer together with business, labour and government, a partnership with government. We thought, that is a good idea.  In fact, we have been asking the Premier to have an economic summit that could be used in preparation of the next year's budget that should be brought in very soon so that we can deal in a co‑operative and consensus way to deal with the devastation on our economies and our families of Manitoba.

     I would ask the Premier to, one, bring in an early budget, and, two, use a summit with business, labour and government to get Manitobans working again instead of being on the unemployment line.

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  This government does indeed work with people in all sectors of the economy and from all parts of society.  Indeed, tomorrow afternoon, our cabinet will be meeting with the executive of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, part of our ongoing commitment to consultation with people from all areas ‑(interjection)‑ Well, Mr. Speaker, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) talks about things that are said about and by the people in labour.  He and his friends, the union bosses, of course, have not necessarily said nice things about us.

     I saw the president of the Manitoba Federation of Labour in her acceptance speech as she was re‑elected president saying that her No. 1 objective was to get rid of my government, Mr. Speaker, which shows how politicized the labour movement has become in this province.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I would remind the honourable First Minister to deal with the matter raised.

Mr. Filmon:  That is a regrettable situation but despite all of that, we put those issues aside and we deal with everybody in society.  We are dealing with the Manitoba Federation of Labour; we are meeting with them tomorrow, their executive.  We are meeting with Chambers of Commerce.  We are dealing with economic development committees throughout the province.  We are dealing with the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities.

     Anyone who has ideas to offer is welcome to give those ideas, Mr. Speaker, and to allow us to participate with them in rebuilding the Manitoba economy.

     

First Ministers' Conference

Employment Creation Strategy

 

 Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  My question is for the Premier.

     Manitoba's economy is stagnating.  This is the worst recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s.  We are performing below the national average in eight out of 11 key economic indicators including housing starts, manufacturing shipments and employment levels.

     The average number of unemployed this year is estimated to be 48,300, which is the highest ever recorded by the labour force survey.  At the same time, our labour force is shrinking.  I ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, why did the Premier of this province not place unemployment, the recession and growing welfare as the No. 1 item on the agenda of the forthcoming First Ministers' conference?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I just want the member opposite to recall that in his days in office during the infamous Pawley regime, as they were in the recession of the early '80s, there was one particular year in which for almost half the year they had 54,000 unemployed people in this province, higher than the number that he is quoting today in Manitoba‑‑54,000 people for almost half the year.

     During that year, Mr. Speaker, we were dealing with a labour force that was at least 40,000 less in total than it is today, so proportionately, our percentage of unemployment and our numbers of unemployment are better.  There are not as good as we would like them to be.  We want to do better.

     Mr. Speaker, that is what the programs we have put in place, that is what the economic foundation we have put in place, will do, is to improve the economy.

Mr. Leonard Evans:  They are leaving the province, they are leaving the labour force, and I will be prepared to table this document showing that we have this year‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.  The honourable member for Brandon East, with his supplementary question.

Mr. Leonard Evans:  Will the Premier reconsider this matter? Would he specifically advocate the establishment of job creation programs at the national level at the forthcoming First Minister's conference, given the fact that we have the worst recession since the Great Depression.  It is continuing.  Indeed, unemployment may reach a high‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, what we will do is ensure that we have control of the expenditures, the deficit level and keep taxes down in this province, unlike the New Democratic Party, when the member for Brandon East was in government, that drove up the deficit to obscene levels and at the same time raised every single tax in this province so that their taxes were the second highest overall in this country.

     In addition to that, the money that they spent‑‑and I will talk more about it when I speak today on the throne speech‑‑on short‑term, make‑work jobs like cutting grass and clearing brush, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) when he was president of MGEA used to talk about, we will not put money into that short‑term‑‑

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Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Brandon East, with your final supplementary question, please.

     

Social Assistance

Alternative

     

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  What does the Premier expect the tens of thousands of Manitobans to do this winter with thousands exhausting their unemployment insurance benefits and thousands going onto welfare?  What alternatives do they have besides going on welfare or leaving this province?  Why do you not give‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member for Brandon East persists on raising the issue of work for welfare recipients.  Then he denies that he has raised the issue, and he runs as far away from it as he can.

     Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that nobody in this province should take delight in the plight of people who are regrettably unemployed.  Nobody should take delight in the fact that we have a national and an international recession that is affecting negatively every single country in the western world. ‑(interjection)

      The member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) says we should do something here.  Would she like us to do what Ontario is doing and that is to put 260,000 people out of work?  Is that what she would like us to do?  Well, Mr. Speaker, the province of Ontario with the New Democratic government has lost 80 percent of all the jobs that have been lost in this country.  I do not believe that their policies are the way to go.

     

Social Assistance

Provincial Tax Credit

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, in all the rhetoric, there is a human dimension here that seems to be forgotten.  I am talking about people who are unemployed, people who are on social assistance.  I met this morning, as did the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), and regrettably not the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) although he was invited to the same meeting, with social assistance recipients.  They have a number of questions, and I want to ask them on their behalf today.

     The first question is:  Why did this minister cut the provincial tax credit program in its essence of change so it is now going to be given $60 a month instead of in a lump sum payment?  Why did he do that without any consultation with the social assistance recipients who will be affected by that policy change?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to explain that to the honourable member.

     I would indicate I met with the group at the West Broadway Ministry a few months ago, and we will be meeting again in January.  I was not able to attend the meeting this morning, but we did have staff in attendance there.  At that time I was meeting with the Canadian Paraplegic Association about the same issues, about housing, about social allowances.  I can tell you that in the community there is a great recognition of the additional social allowances program we have put in place for the disabled, a program that was long overdue.

     The question the member asked was about cutbacks.  There was no cutback in the social allowances program.  We enhanced that program to all recipients by some 3.6 percent.  We changed the delivery of the tax credits to a more timely basis.  They not only are getting their lump sum payment this year, but they are getting the 1992 tax credit on a more timely basis starting with cheques that I believe will be in their hands this week.

     I was pleased to have support on that initiative from the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans)‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

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Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, they will now receive $60 a month when they used to have received a lump sum payment.

     The minister has said this will give them a choice, either to spend the money monthly or to collect it and spend it at one time.  Unfortunately, there is a regulation in place which says that the maximum bank account which they can have is $400.  How can they save their $60 a month to come up with their final sum when he will not allow them to have a bank account of more than $400?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Just to finish my previous answer, when we passed that legislation last spring we did have the support of members of the Liberal Party who voted in favour of that bill.

     There are many issues in the social allowances program.  The social allowances program, of course, is a very complex one.  We were able to increase some of the allowances for housing some 3 percent, on the basic some 3.6 percent, and make that change in the tax credits.

     That is not to say there are not other initiatives we are looking at.  There are many aspects to the social allowances program that we would like to give further study to and have further consideration of.  We hope to be making some further announcements in the near future.

     

Special Needs

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  I have a final supplementary to the minister.

     Mr. Speaker, a number of recipients have informed us they are being told by welfare workers that they do not need special needs because they can use their GST rebate, they can use their tax credit rebate, neither of which was to replace special needs.

     Will this minister today issue a memorandum to all those working in provincial welfare that they are not to tell claimants they are to use monies from their GST rebate and monies from their tax credit rebates for special needs?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, we have some 26,000 or 27,000 clients and cases in the social allowances system that the province is responsible for, and we certainly will advise and say publicly that recipients will get fair treatment according to the guidelines that are in place.

     

College Louis Riel

Admission Policy

 

Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.  Yesterday afternoon, I met with Mr. Fred Kelly and his son, David Kelly, the student who was being denied admission to a St. Boniface school.  I have some information, some correspondence here, that I would like to table that they gave me concerning the school division's policy.

     I would like to ask the minister:  Why will this minister not meet with Mr. Fred Kelly and his son to tell the story and learn the side of the story why his son is being denied admission to the school?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, it was the honourable member for Rupertsland who came to me yesterday late afternoon and asked whether or not I would meet with the Kellys.  The member for Rupertsland came to me at about 3:30 and asked whether I would meet with him immediately.  I had to decline because of the fact that my afternoon had already been booked, and it was impossible for me to meet with them at that time.

     I am not opposed to meeting with them, Mr. Speaker, but let us understand the issue here.  It is unfortunate that the parents of David Kelly do not qualify under Section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to have their child in an FL1 school. Nevertheless, that is the responsibility of the school division, if they wish to waive the policy.  The school division has made its decision on the matter, and it is one which lies with the school division and not with the government.

Mr. Harper:  Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is that the minister is responsible for the legislation and also has the constitutional responsibility to uphold the interests of every student‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Mr. Harper:  My question to the minister is:  Why is this minister not meeting with the school division and also the student on this matter?

Mr. Derkach:  Well, Mr. Speaker, it is a fact that Mr. David Kelly does have access to a French immersion school within that school division.  He has attended that school for some 10 years, but under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms under Section 23, Mr. Kelly does not qualify to attend an FL1 school.  It is under that particular policy that the school division is operating and has denied access to Mr. Kelly to attend that particular school.

Mr. Harper:  Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is:  This is a public school and the minister responsible‑‑

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Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member, kindly put your question, please.

Mr. Harper:  Yes.  Will this minister table in the House appropriate matters and procedures for a minister to intervene in the school board since the school board association has asked for these changes?

Mr. Derkach:  Mr. Speaker, the regulations regarding rights under Section 23 of the Charter are very specific and very clear.  I would be happy to make available to the member, the section which the school division has made its decision under.  I will send that to the member.

Child Day Care

Funding Formula

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, the child care system in Manitoba was once the envy of North America.  It is now in tatters, thanks to the shoestring budget, the government's disastrous funding formula changes have forced on child care centres and family daycares.

     Will the Minister of Family Services, in light of this overwhelming evidence, do the right thing and put back into place the funding formula that was once in place that included a legitimate, adequate operating grant for child care centres and family daycares?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the daycare portion of the Family Services department has seen an increase of some 61 percent in the last four budgets.  When we came to office in 1988, daycare was accessing a budget line of $27 million.  That has increased by some 61 percent to $44 million.

     Opposition members are frequently talking about cutbacks.  I say to you that this is an overwhelming increase in the amount of funding that daycares are able to access.  What the member is referencing is a change from giving grants to daycare centres which tend to be a subsidy to all, to using taxpayers' money to target those dollars to those people most in need and who want to access the system.  Our subsidy levels are higher this year than they have ever been before.

     

Centre Licensing

       

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services listen to the entire child care community throughout the province of Manitoba who are urging the government through their string campaign and their letters that have gone on since last July, in addition, to not license new spaces in areas where there is already a vacancy rate, as the government has the authority to do?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I know the member speaks for the MCCA and I would remind her that they are one of the advocacy groups in the child care community.  I would not only listen to them, but I would listen to all of the groups that represent the daycare community, including the parents.

     I wonder if, in putting forward this new concept, the member has caucused this with, for instance, the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) who has written me a letter to license more spaces.  There seems to be a little divergent thinking on the part of the NDP on this issue.

     We will consult with all of the people involved in the daycare community, including the parents, when we make daycare changes.

     

Point of Order

       

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake):  The letter that the minister refers to supporting a daycare in the community‑‑I would like to remind the minister that there is no daycare in that community.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a Point of Order.  This is a dispute over the facts.

     

Federal Funding

       

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, why has the Minister of Family Services chosen, through funding private daycare spaces, not to access federal funds which are cost shareable with the province only when they go to nonprofit daycares?  Why is he not taking advantage of those available federal funds?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  I indicated that we would listen to all areas of the community in terms of daycare, and I would say to you that we are accessing more CAP recovery dollars with our daycare program this year than we ever have before.  So the member need not worry about us not accessing federal funds.  The CAP recoveries this year under the daycare line would be higher than they were in previous years.

     

Environmentalists

Minister's Position

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings).

     Reaching an all‑time low in this government's attempt to rationalize, ignoring the environment and the environmentalists, the Energy minister stated yesterday:  If we are going to listen to these environmentalists, we should not have any mines, we should not have any electricity, we should not have any thermal stations or any industry that is going to pollute.

     He then went on to question:  If we are going to let environmentalists stop every project we have in the works, what is left for us?

     Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings), will the minister indicate to members of the House whether or not he agrees with those sentiments and how they fit with this government's many dozens of press releases outlining their commitment to sustainable development?

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member's question seeks an opinion and is, therefore, out of order.  The honourable member for St. James, kindly rephrase your question, please.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister indicate what the policy of this government is, given their many dozens of press releases outlining their commitment to sustainable development and their inclusion of all the stakeholders in that quest?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, I think there are numerous examples of the process that we are prepared to undertake in this government to make sure that all stakeholders are heard, to make sure that the issues are raised, and they are either mitigated or eliminated where they are apparent at the prior hearing process.  We are committed to the concepts of sustainable development and environmental protection, and it stays that way.

     

Conawapa Dam Project

Environmental Delay

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  For the same minister, can the minister indicate whether or not it is the government's policy that, as the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) further stated, environmentalists will not be allowed to unduly delay the construction of Conawapa, and the Minister of Energy's further conclusion that, I would have to say that all our plans are that it will be built?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, the process has been laid out.  The process is widely accepted as being a fair and open one, and that is the way it will continue to be.

     

Economic Viability

       

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, will the Environment minister ensure that the economic viability of Conawapa is part of the scoping for the upcoming environmental process, given that the economic principle of Manitobans' need for that power has now been questioned and that need in fact has been confirmed by both the minister responsible for Hydro and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) as not being what it was stated to be in front of the PUB?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  In the review of the project, we are going to be looking at the environmental impacts.  We will make sure that they are properly mitigated and properly handled prior to any construction beginning and make sure that any recommendation from the Clean Environment Commission and the joint panel in the case of Conawapa are followed.  There has been a prior review of the economic factors.  The economic factors will continue to be part of the studies that this government goes through and that Manitoba Hydro goes through, but we have laid down the guidelines for the Conawapa review, and I believe they are fair.

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Immigrant Credentials

Working Group

 

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway):  Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the honourable Minister of Education.

     No one who has lit a lamp puts it in a secret place or under a basket but on a lamp stand so that everyone who comes in may see the light.  Since 1990, and all of '91 is now almost over, there is a 10‑member working group on immigrant credentials under the Department of Education and Training of the Department of Education.  They have been consulting with professional technical groups, ethnocultural groups and post‑secondary educational institutions in order that they may assess qualifications ‑(interjection)‑ I am laying the groundwork‑‑so that they may assess the qualifications of students whom they brought with them into Manitoba and into Canada in order that the government may develop some mechanism by which these skills, training and experience can be recognized and be put to good use in this province and this country.

     I now ask the honourable minister:  What has ever happened to the result of that consultation and the‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, it is in fact true that we have established a working group on immigrant credentials, and we had established that within the Department of Education and Training about a year ago.  That group has been actively working with organizations that are affected by this kind of an issue.  It is not an issue that can be handled overnight, but indeed I know that the work is still ongoing.  Now that the responsibility for that has been transferred over to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I will take the question as notice on behalf of my colleague.

Mr. Santos:  Now that the honourable minister has passed the buck, can this government enlighten this House and the people of Manitoba, what are some of the salient findings and recommendations that are now ready for their consideration that came out of this study?  I direct‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  The question has been put.

Mr. Derkach:  Mr. Speaker, once again I will take that question as notice for my colleague.

Mr. Santos:  If the honourable minister takes everything into consideration, would the honourable minister at least tell this House and the people of this province what specific actions they have in mind in order to deal with this problem of unusable skills and technical training that are not being useful at all because of lack of recognition?

Mr. Derkach:  That is an issue that has been before this province for many years and indeed, Mr. Speaker, I think it is very evident by the remarks that have been made within this House, that all of us would support‑‑that people who come to this province from other countries would be given an ample opportunity to use their skills in a very productive way within our society.

     In terms of the findings of the report, I am sure that will all be made available once the minister is ready to table that, and I will take the specifics of that as notice.

     

Crow Benefit

Government Position

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) is a participant in the massive federal campaign involving 125 meetings in western Canada to change the method of payment of the Crow benefit.  Clearly, this is an attempt to divert attention away from the real crisis in agriculture at this time to divide the farm community which has come together in an unprecedented way.  The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) knows it, perhaps to convince farmers that the Crow had to be given away at the GATT talks, and on that point, Mr. Speaker, it is part of transportation talks which is the discussion document.

     I ask the Minister of Agriculture, what precise action has this minister taken, or will he take to demonstrate that he is firmly opposed to any Canadian position that would see the historic Crow benefit given away at the GATT talks?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, the member says that we are having 125 meetings.  That is right‑‑to let the rural public of western Canada know what the costs of transportation, elevation and handling are for grain so that they can make some of the decisions as to where this industry is going to go in the future.

     With regard to whether it is a negotiating point at GATT, basically my understanding is no, is it is not a negotiating point at GATT.

Mr. Plohman:  Can the minister explain what action he has taken to call to the Prime Minister's attention in recent days that farmers need immediate cash pursuant to the Ottawa lobby that took place, and the rallies that took place this summer, not a divisive debate at this time to divide and conquer on the Crow benefit?