LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Monday, February 17, 1992
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Point of Order
Hon. James Downey
(Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I rise to advise you and members of the House
that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will be absent from the House today.
As
you know, the Premier puts the highest priority on the attendance in this
House, particularly on this day as we resume this session of the
Legislature. He has asked me to convey that
it was only the most extraordinary circumstances that prevented his attendance
today.
Unfortunately, the Premier underwent surgery on Saturday, February 15,
1992, at the
Thank you.
Mr.
Speaker: I would like to thank the
honourable acting Premier. The
honourable member does not have a point of order. I would like to thank the
honourable acting First Minister for bringing that to the attention of the
House. I am sure I speak on behalf of
all honourable members when we wish the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon)
a speedy recovery.
PRESENTING PETITIONS
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
The Pas Health Complex Incorporated praying for the passing of an act to amend
The Pas Health Complex Incorporation Act.
PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second
Report of the Committee on Public Accounts.
Mr.
Clerk (William Remnant): Your
Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as its Second
Report.
Your
committee met on Tuesday, December 17, 1991, at 10 a.m. in Room 254 of the
On
January 27, 1992, your committee accepted the resignations of Mrs. Render and
Messrs. Rose and Carr, and elected Messrs. Connery, Laurendeau and Lamoureux to
replace them.
Your
committee received all information desired by any member from the Minister of
Finance (Mr. Manness), staff from the Department of Finance, Mr. Fred Jackson,
Provincial Auditor, Ms. Carol Bellringer, Assistant Provincial Auditor, Mr.
Stan Puchniak, Assistant Deputy Minister, Taxation Division, and from Mr. Eric
Rosenhek, Provincial Comptroller.
Information was provided with respect to the receipts, expenditures and
other matters pertaining to the business of the province. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members
of the committee to examine vouchers or any documents called for, and no
restriction was placed upon the line of examination.
Your
committee finds that the receipts and expenditures of the monies have been
carefully set forth and all monies accounted for.
Your
committee has considered the Provincial Auditor's Report and Volumes 1 and 2 of
the Public Accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1991, and has adopted
the same as presented. Your committee also reports that it has considered
matters relating to the Special Audit of the Taxation Division of the
Department of Finance.
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Mr.
Leonard Evans: I move, seconded by
the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that the report of the
committee be received.
Motion
agreed to.
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of The Civil
Service Act): I would like to table the Annual Report of
the Civil Service Commission for 1990‑91.
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual
Report for the year 1990‑91 of The Clean Environment Commission.
Mr.
Speaker: I am pleased to table the
Annual Report on the Elections Finances Act covering the period January 1,
1990, to December 31, 1990.
Announcement
Mr. Speaker: I must inform the House that James Gordon
Carr, the honourable member for Crescentwood, resigned his seat in the House
effective January 27, 1992.
I am
therefore tabling his resignation and my letter to the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
advising the vacancy thus created in the membership of the House.
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
Bill 24‑The Post-Adoption Registry Act
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): I move, seconded
by the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), that Bill 24, The Post‑Adoption
Registry Act; Loi sur le Bureau d'enregistrement postadoption, be introduced
and that the same be now received and be read a first time.
Motion
presented.
Mrs. Carstairs: The purpose of this
bill is really quite simple. The Post‑Adoption
Act that we presently have in the
They
can be given access to records of siblings who are still with their birth
parents; however, they cannot be given access at the present moment to those
siblings who have also been adopted. This would give them the opportunity to
also be in touch with those of the same birth parents but who, in fact, have
been adopted.
Motion
agreed to.
Bill 32‑The Immigration Consultants Registry Act
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Motion
presented.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, it was
just under a year ago where we had seen an excellent example of how immigrants
or would‑be immigrants are exploited, and we believe that this bill is a
positive step that, if the government chose to adopt it, would go a long way in
sending a very strong message to would‑be immigration consultants that
Motion
agreed to.
Bill 31‑The Municipal Amendment Act
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.
Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that Bill 31, The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les municipalites, be introduced and that the same be now
received and read a first time.
Motion
presented.
Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Speaker, this
bill corrects a serious flaw which was inserted into The Municipal Act in the
last session. This bill will delete the
word "consecutive," making the residence requirement for eligibility
for elected office in summer resort municipalities two months in any year.
As a
result of the government's addition, which brought the residency requirement to
two consecutive months, only 8 percent of the population of Victoria Beach are
eligible to run for municipal office, while most taxes are collected from those
disqualified.
In
the interest of basic democratic principle, this flaw must be corrected, as
this bill will do.
Motion
agreed to.
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Bill 16‑The Health Care Directives Act
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
honourable member for
Motion
presented.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, this
bill, so‑called living will, will legalize the wishes of a dying person
made while competent and will give effect to the patient's right to self‑determination
and right to refuse care.
This
bill is based on the recommendation from the Manitoba Law Reform Commission,
and it will provide a mechanism to enforce the rights of patients when they are
no longer competent to speak for themselves.
Thank you.
Motion
agreed to.
Mr. Paul Edwards (St.
James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that Bill 30, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de
Motion
presented.
Mr. Edwards: This bill will re‑establish
the Winnipeg Police Commission, which was dismantled by City Council in 1986
because of reduced responsibilities or perceived reduced responsibilities of that
commission. It will help the
This
bill, as I have said, will re‑establish the police commission. By establishing it in statute, the commission
will be mandatory and, it is our hope and our submission, will help secure the
respect of the police force, not just for the community but for the police
force itself. This is a commission whose
day has come again, Mr. Speaker. I
recommend it to all members of the House for speedy passage.
Motion
agreed to.
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Bill 23‑The Private Training Accountability Act
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that Bill 23,
The Private Training Accountability Act; Loi sur l'obligation redditionnelle en
matiere de formation privee, be introduced and that the same be now received
and read a first time.
Motion
presented.
Mrs. Carstairs: I think we are all,
in this House, in agreement that training opportunities must be made more and
more available to not only our young people but people who find themselves
unemployed.
Unfortunately, we are putting more and more money into training programs,
but there is no adequate mechanism for adjudicating those programs. We do not have criteria which is clearly
enunciated for funding, we do not have standards for curriculum, and we do not
have a system for reporting the expenditures, nor do we have a follow‑up.
This
bill will provide the wherewithal by which young people who are trained will
know that they are adequately trained, and the government will know that their
money has been spent to a good endeavour.
Motion
agreed to.
Bill 17‑The Patient Records Access and Confidentiality
Act
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that Bill 17, The Patient Records Access and
Confidentiality Act; Loi sur l'acces aux dossiers des malades et leur
confidentialite, be introduced and that the same be now received and read for
the first time.
Motion
presented.
Mr. Cheema: This bill will
entrench the right of all patients to access their medical records, a matter
which is still in dispute in
Motion
agreed to.
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this
afternoon from the
On
behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Goods and Services
Tax Harmonization
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we on this side would like to
pass on our comments to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), pass on our regards for a
healthy recovery and successful operation that is taking place today in
Mr.
Speaker, in the last provincial election, we were told very clearly that there
would not be a harmonization of the GST and the PST in the
In
the last budget, the government stated it was going to study the issue of
harmonization with the GST and PST, then it promised us it was going to release
the results of that study, but then after the
I
would ask the Minister of Finance very directly: Are they considering the harmonization of the
GST with the PST in the
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):
Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has his chronology fairly
accurate. Let me say that certainly the
full report was not provided of what it was the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was
responding to in question.
Let
me indicate very specifically to the question.
The government at this point in time is not reviewing harmonization. It
has not since the Premier announced, I believe, almost a year ago now that‑‑not
a year ago, let us say, eight months ago, that we were not actively considering
harmonization. That was restated before
we rose last session; it was restated again last fall. The government, at this point in time, is not
actively considering harmonization.
Mr.
Doer: Mr. Speaker, during the last
budget, after the government said in the last election that it was not
considering harmonizing the GST and the PST at this particular time, in the
last budget that the Minister of Finance tabled, he stated that he is having
his officials carefully study the full implications of harmonizing the sales
tax. Surely the government agrees that
it is the public's right to know what is in those studies that of course have
been paid for by taxpayers' money, in the studies that have been implemented by
the Minister of Finance in his own budget.
Given the government has the results of the implications of the study on
the harmonization of the GST with the PST, will the Minister of Finance agree
today to table that study in the Legislature so that the debate in the province
can be full and accurate with all the facts that the government has produced
before us for this debate?
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Mr.
Manness Mr. Speaker, we said we
would study the issue. We did not say
that there would be a study as such prepared.
Oh, there is a big difference, and I can say in all honesty that we
studied the issue in great detail.
Again, what was reflected was this, and I have spelled this out for the
Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) on several occasions. Again I will recite for the record, namely,
this: Whereas the member for Osborne
(Mr. Alcock) seems to think there is hundreds of millions of dollars available,
if indeed we are to harmonize, I am here standing, saying that, if the
government were to harmonize, if the government were to now apply the
provincial sales tax to services and were to adopt the tax credit system in
place by the federal government, there would be basically a net wash to the
province. There would be no additional
revenues whatsoever, Mr. Speaker.
That
is what I have said over and over again.
That is what I stand here and say today, but more importantly, to answer
the question for the member, harmonization is not under active consideration
today, and indeed I would expect it will not be under consideration tomorrow
either.
Mr.
Doer: I guess that begs the
question: What about the day after? We have had four different positions from the
government to date, and that is only over the last 18 months.
Impact Manufacturing Industry
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Finally, the government has stated, the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) stated in this Chamber last year, that the federal
Conservative GST would have a positive impact on the manufacturing sector in
this province.
Many
of us who have talked to people working the manufacturing sector think that the
Premier is all wrong on this issue, and given the fact that the Minister of
Finance has these studies and has these reports, and given that the
Manufacturing Association of
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, let me make it plain for anybody
who wants to hear. The GST is not a
provincial tax. It is a federal tax. The studies associated with the impact on the
provincial economy with the implementation of the GST in January of 1991, indeed
the expectation of negative impact, was in the realm of one and a half
percent. Those were not our numbers;
those were the federal government's.
There were only two models to try and predict those. Those were the Conference Board of Canada and
the internal model of the Department of Finance. That was their estimate.
Nobody, there is not a province in
Mr.
Speaker, I fully believe that was the negative impact on our province. It represented several hundreds of millions
of dollars, and indeed that is one of the reasons that the
Mr.
Doer: A little reminiscent of the
comments of the Minister of Finance without the studies of Michael Wilson when
he said that the GST would be revenue neutral.
Economic Growth
Employment Creation Strategy
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): I have a new question to the Minister of
Finance. We have had the largest
increase in the unemployment rate of any province in
Mr.
Speaker, last year the Premier said and the government said very boldly that
they would step aside and let the private sector be the engine of the
Unfortunately, that single‑engine strategy has been a failure in
the
My
question to the Minister of Finance is:
What action is his government going to take to get people working again
and get people off the welfare lines of
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Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I find it interesting that the Leader of the
NDP in
Mr.
Speaker, first of all, and I remind him that
What
I could not help but detect was that every NDP provincial Premier said in
essence that they did not believe in mindless make‑work projects that
could destroy the confidence if badly placed.
At least Premier Rae, Premier Harcourt, and also Premier Romanow‑‑all
of them said that. Also, they said that
every NDP government said the fight on deficit control and reduction must be
maintained.
I am
interested to know whether or not the Leader of the NDP party in
Mr.
Doer: Mr. Speaker, I also note that
the Premier talked about keeping out the partisan rhetoric around the table,
and we must work today, we must start today, Canadians had their fill of
hopeful rhetoric. Well, Manitobans have
had their fill of hopeful rhetoric from this government over the last l8
months.
We
have always called on the capital investment in the
I would
ask the Minister of Finance: Is the
government going to stick with its ideologically extreme policies of just
stepping aside during the time of the recession, or is this government going to
work in partnership with people to get people working again and get our economy
moving again in the
Mr.
Manness: Mr. Speaker, the member's
facts are wrong; they are in error. If
he wants to compare capital spending in
In
Highways, last year, we increased capital spending from $102 million to $106 million;
in Government Services, we maintained capital spending; in Housing, we
maintained capital spending; in Health we increased capital spending
significantly; in Education we also maintained capital spending.
Mr.
Speaker, we, as one province in this nation, have done something that is most
difficult to do during a time of restraint, and that is to maintain the level
of capital expenditure. We are proud of
that, because when one looks around at how the other provinces, particularly
NDP provinces, will be addressing their deficit over the years to come, one
will notice that the first attack, the first line to be attacked, is the
capital side.
That
has not happened in this province, and it will not happen in the next budget
either.
Mr.
Doer: I refer the Minister of
Finance to the two budgets he has tabled over the last two years in the
Chamber. The facts speak very clearly
for themselves.
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Budget
Employment Creation Strategy
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): My question again is to the Minister of
Finance.
Mr.
Speaker, this Minister of Finance had to find another $25 million for social
assistance because of the absolutely disastrous policies of the Conservative
government in
I
would ask this Minister of Finance: Has
he seen the wisdom of his ways to be failing?
Will he have a much better budget to keep people working rather than
having the highest increase in welfare of anyplace in
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):
Well, Mr. Speaker, I am reminded that a significant reason for that
increase, of course, was the increased benefits that we have provided as
compared to other provinces. A
significant reason and portion of that increase is the benefits. Certainly the volume increase is significant
in itself.
Let
me point out that we have provided extremely significant increases in benefits
also through that period of time, Mr. Speaker.
Let me also point out that our base was a little bit lower vis‑a‑vis
other provinces. I can indicate to the
member that I had an opportunity to talk with my counterpart, the Minister of
Finance from
Mr.
Speaker, the matter that the member brings forward certainly is not isolated to
Goods and Services Tax
Harmonization
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.
The
position of this government on harmonization is about as clear as mud. It reminds me of the old song: first you say you will and then you
won't. Mr. Speaker, we had the Premier
of this province say on February 12, we will have to consider it. We had the Minister of Industry, Trade and
Tourism on the 14th of February say, well, Mr. Mazankowski asked us to look at
it, so we have an obligation to do so.
Well, when did they start their review and when did they finish their
review, if he is in fact going to defend his Minister of Finance?
Hon.
James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr.
Speaker, I think the Minister of Finance, in his comments, has answered the
question which has been put by the member of the New Democratic Party.
Our
position has not changed, as has been indicated by the Minister of Finance.
Goods and Services Tax
Harmonization
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker,
would the Deputy Premier like to tell us if he has told the Premier of the
province that the government backbenchers and cabinet ministers assembled have
changed their minds?
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):
Mr. Speaker, I will try and make it very clear for the Leader of the
Liberal Party, who has great difficulty‑‑very difficult.
I
received a request from the federal government, over the signature of the
Deputy Prime Minister, asking our province‑‑and I believe the
letter went out to all other provinces‑‑to consider a method of
harmonization, not the traditional harmonization, where we were going to apply
provincial sales tax in harmony across all goods and all services, but indeed
one small element to try and deal with a very real problem in this
country. It is called cross‑border
shopping. It is impacting the
constituents and indeed the businesses of each and every one of us in this
House. It would come as not a great
revelation to you, Mr. Speaker, that this was an issue that was discussed at
the First Ministers' Conference.
The
federal government sent to us a letter asking us to consider a proposal that
might deal with this problem. It was on
that wish of the federal government, indeed of the provinces, to try and deal
with this that the Premier made a comment dealing with harmonization. That should not be confused with the
harmonization issue that was discussed in this House, in this province and all
across
We are talking about a very serious matter to
our businesses and indeed our constituents, and that is cross‑border
shopping. I think the members opposite, if they wanted to do justice on a
public policy issue, with respect to that issue, could try and shed more light
rather than more darkness on that particular issue.
Mrs.
Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, for further
clarification, has the Minister of Finance now written to the Deputy Prime
Minister and to the Minister of Revenue, Mr. Jelinek, and informed them that
there will not be under any circumstances harmonization of the PST and the GST
in the
Mr.
Manness: Mr. Speaker, I do not have
to write that letter. I will be writing
a letter. I met with my officials this
morning, but I do not need to write that letter, because that was not what was
requested by Mr. Mazankowski. He never
did request that. Total harmonization, goods and services, was not requested by
the federal government. They know that
is a nonstarter. They were told by First
Ministers that that was a nonstarter across this country. The request that came forward from Mr.
Mazankowski did not even ask for that.
It asked to consider whether or not there was a willingness to take the
good side of the goods and services tax and apply the provincial sales tax at
the border.
The
members can try and muddy it up to make it appear like the provincial
government is harmonizing, but I am here standing to tell you that is not the
case. We will not be harmonizing the
goods and services tax.
Free Trade Agreement
Abrogation
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy
First Minister.
Manitobans listened with interest to the comments from the Finance
minister about the need to control the deficit, about the concern for the
57,000 people who are unemployed.
Manitobans want more than concern.
They want a government that is prepared to act on their behalf.
Since 1989, this government has supported the Free Trade Agreement, an
agreement which has cost
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please.
Mr.
Storie: Mr. Speaker, my question to
the Deputy Premier (Mr.
Hon.
James Downey (Deputy Premier): I am
not going to in any way accept the information which the member for Flin Flon
(Mr. Storie) puts on the table or puts before this Legislature, Mr.
Speaker. There have been times when it
has been less than accurate, where it has come from.
Let
me as well say that there are a number of things that one could point to that
have caused difficulties in the economy. Number one, Mr. Speaker, we are facing
an international and national recession which is impacting on everyone. If the member for Flin Flon does not see
that, then I think he should come alive to the greater happenings that are taking
place in all of
It
should be pointed out as well that, within the manufacturing sector in
North American Free Trade Agreement
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin
Flon): Mr. Speaker, I think Canadians and Manitobans
realize that the problems that we have created for our economy are going to be compounded
if we join the North American free trade agreement.
My
question is to the minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.
Stefanson). Given that on July 16, 1991,
the government tabled a set of conditions which would have to be met before we
agreed to enter the negotiations with
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
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Hon.
Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): The honourable
member is correct that we opposed a North American free trade agreement unless
the six fundamental conditions are met.
We have no clear indication on some of them. To date there is progress being made in two
fundamental areas, the review of labour standards and the review of
environmental standards, but the federal government clearly knows our position
as a province. It has been made clear back in July of '91 and in federal‑provincial
ministerial meetings ever since, and we will continue to stand by that
position, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Storie: Mr. Speaker, will the
minister do two things? Will the
minister please indicate to this House which of the studies and reports from
the federal government he is prepared to table today, and will he guarantee the
people of Manitoba, if the six conditions are not met, Manitoba will not now,
nor will it ever, support a free trade agreement between the United States,
Mexico and Canada?
Mr.
Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I think we
have made that position perfectly clear in this House back in July when we
introduced it, and we have done it consistently. We have said we do not support a North
American free trade agreement unless those six very important conditions are
met. I have to indicate to you that, as
a result of our position, it certainly stimulated some support and interest
from other provinces across
GATT Negotiations
Supply Management Proposal
Mr. John Plohman
(Dauphin): This Minister of Agriculture's agenda is
gradually becoming increasingly clear, much to the alarm of many producers in
On
January 26, Mr. Speaker, he publicly proposed that the method of payment of the
Crow be changed to appease other countries at GATT, and he did that on the
I
ask this minister: Will he now stand up
for
Hon.
Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):
Mr. Speaker, the member put about six questions on the agenda for this
afternoon.
I
would like to first off tell the member that he is categorically wrong when he
says that I refused unconditionally to support supply management. I want the member to clearly understand the
complexity of agriculture in
Wheat makes up 28 percent of cash receipts at the farm gate; cattle 16
percent; hogs 12 percent; supply management 11 percent; oilseeds 9 percent;
coarse grain 6 percent. Because of the
international trade war, the grains, oilseeds and red meat sector have been
severely hurt in the
As a
result, about two years ago we as a Province of Manitoba took a position that
at the GATT round of negotiations, which were clearly needed to help relieve
the impact of the grain trade war on the grain and oilseed producers, that we
would take a balanced position to the table that all trade distorting subsidies
must be reduced, or eliminated preferably, and that we must clarify and
strengthen Article 11.
That
is the position that
Mr.
Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the minister
is all over the map on this issue, trying to skate through. I want to table a copy of the proposal and
the agreement that was signed by all of the Ministers of Agriculture, with the
exception of
I
want to ask this minister if he is saying by refusing to sign this document
that in fact he is admitting that he wants to destroy the supply managed farms
in this province, because that is exactly what will happen if the tariffication
proposal is accepted. Is he for that
tariffication proposal or against it as it is constituted now?
Mr.
Findlay: Mr. Speaker, that member
continually tries to misinterpret what is going on.
That
declaration that he refers to, as I said in my previous answer, did not relate
to the balanced position that we take as a
All
ministers underlined the critical need to work together with industry in
fostering Canada's balanced position and received assurance from the federal
government that every effort we undertake to achieve a successful conclusion to
the GATT negotiations, Mr. Speaker. All
ministers support the balanced position; all ministers supported this
communique, which is a position that
Mr.
Plohman: Will this minister come
clean and tell this House whether in fact this balanced approach that he talks
about includes the clarification proposal that is currently on‑‑
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please.
Point of Order