LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, February 18, 1992

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dwain Ste. Marie, Carol Koslowski, Tracey Rush and others requesting the government to show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Shonnon Armstrong, Jacqueline Dyke, Susan Rogers and others requesting the government to show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Rhoda Carevic, John Foley, Joelle Foster and others requesting the government to show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms to the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned, The Pas Health Complex Incorporated, humbly sheweth:

THAT your petitioner seeks to amend The Pas Health Complex Incorporation Act by striking out the word "ten" in paragraph 1, line 4 thereof and substituting therefore the word "thirteen."

WHEREFORE your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass an act for the purpose above mentioned.

And as in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I have a ministerial statement and I have copies.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to advise the House of my government's initiatives with regard to Churchill, its port and the rail line that serves it.

I have had increasing concern for the future of Churchill. This concern has been fueled by the review being conducted by the federal government which is expected to lead to a decision on the rail line and the port.

We have been actively pursuing commitments to increase traffic through Churchill as well as to upgrade rail and port facilities. This has involved meetings with federal ministers, the Canadian Wheat Board and Canadian National officials.

I have also sought the support of my western counterparts for the port. In addition, last fall I took the Honourable Shirley Martin, Minister of State for Transport, to Churchill. This provided her an opportunity to meet with the people of Churchill and to view the facilities. She came away with a much better understanding of both issues and the potential of Churchill.

The Premier signed an agreement with Russia last fall, which included the potential of activity for Churchill. The recent 25 million tonne grain sale to Russia is also encouraging.

We are aggressively pursuing maximum utilization of Churchill for this movement, which will run through 1996. Churchill's proximity to northern Europe export markets is another definite advantage which this government will pursue.

The potential development of the Churchill Rocket Range will demand access to rail service. This facility has the potential to provide 200 permanent jobs to the North. These three initiatives hold promise for the future of Churchill.

In order to ensure preservation of these opportunities, I met with the Honourable Jean Corbeil, federal Minister of Transport and the Honourable Shirley Martin, Minister of State for Transport yesterday in Ottawa. They assured me no decision will be made until the completion of their review and that the port would operate in 1992.

Although I am confident that grain will move through Churchill this year, every effort must be taken to secure the long‑term future of Churchill and northern rail service. Northern development, access to grain markets and the very future of Churchill itself hang in the balance.

I urge members of this House to give their full support to these vital initiatives.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, we were somewhat encouraged that the minister would take the opportunity to travel to Ottawa to speak with his federal counterparts on the decision of Churchill. Unfortunately, once again we see the minister has come back with no long‑term commitment for the Port of Churchill or the people of northern Manitoba.

We are very discouraged, Mr. Speaker, by what we see in this document here today and that the minister has received no assurances and commitment from his federal counterparts. There are a lot of initiatives that we wish to see take place in the province, in the North of Manitoba, that hang in the balance because no decision has been made for the port facilities. Until that decision is made, the future of northern Manitoba hangs in the balance.

It is unfortunate that the minister has not received that commitment from the federal minister, and I believe that once again that task falls into the hands of the other parties in Manitoba who will be travelling to Ottawa this coming Friday to try and persuade the federal government to change their decision to close Churchill and to make sure that it remains open well into the future for the people of northern Manitoba and for the rest of the residents of Manitoba.

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Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to the minister's comment first by noting an excerpt from his statement that they have been actively pursuing commitments to increase traffic. I remember that statement being made very shortly after first coming to this House a number of years ago when this government first came into power. We really have not seen much progress since then, unfortunately.

I acknowledge that not all of that can be laid at the feet of this minister, but surely it is time for the people of northern Manitoba and Churchill, in particular, to be given some long‑term commitment for the ongoing viability and, indeed, the increased use of that port.

It is a fact which I think is lost on many people in this country, certainly not on Manitobans, but many people in this country, that this province has a seagoing port. It is the only prairie province to have that port. That should be a jewel for the Prairies, Mr. Speaker, not just for Manitoba.

It is high time that eastern Canadians recognize the importance and the possibilities for that port. I do not believe that it is understood. I appreciate the minister's efforts to put that forward. It is time, however, I think, to put some meat on the bones of the many fine words and the rhetoric that is often thrown around this Chamber and no doubt the House of Commons in Ottawa about Churchill. It is time to come through with some commitment for the long‑term viability of that port.

I also want to acknowledge the meeting which is going to take place on Friday in Ottawa. The member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) will be at that meeting and we hope that meeting will produce some commitment for the people of northern Manitoba.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House with copies‑‑[interjection] I have not been in Ontario today.

Mr. Speaker, last April 4 I had the pleasure of standing in this House to announce the official opening of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, a world‑class health research institute.

In the past year, we have become even more acutely aware of the cost of health care and of the necessity to seek answers which will enable us to provide quality care and universal access without, as I said last year, bankrupting the system. This is true not only in Manitoba but across the country.

It is essential that as health care planners we make sound policy and funding decisions. I believe the centre is providing us with the data we require to effect strategic management decisions. We will make the right decisions for the right reasons. We will be able to determine the value of what we obtain for the patient.

Mr. Speaker, members will recall, the centre is a partnership between the University of Manitoba and Manitoba Health with funding of $3.5 million over three years provided through the Health Services Development Fund.

One of the first projects of the centre known as the Manitoba Population Health Data Base, which is being jointly developed by the centre, Statistics Canada and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research will help us link service delivery with health outcomes. This will mean focusing on health care rather than illness cure.

Doctor Leslie Roos has completed a study on the outcomes of surgical care in Manitoba compared with New England, which has an international reputation in surgery. He found Manitoba's survival rates and outcomes compare favourably with those of New England and, in fact, that Manitoba is able to provide superior care and treatment in surgery for less than half the cost of the New England's surgery.

I take pleasure today in tabling a document entitled "Manitoba Health Care Studies and Their Policy Implications", and I believe a copy of the study has been made available to each of my opposition critics.

Over the past 15 years, the Manitoba researchers have used the administrative data routinely gathered by the Manitoba Health Services Commission to study various health care issues. At the request of Manitoba Health, the centre has summarized the results of the research and has made specific recommendations to government based on the findings of the investigators.

The study says that, quote: Strategies proposed to deal with the issues are based on the principle that professional and scientific approaches are preferable to administrative or punitive measures.

Population‑based research helps ensure that the results can be provided to policymakers and planners with confidence that the descriptions accurately reflect conditions in the province of Manitoba. The studies provide us with some revealing, and at times comforting, information. For instance, a comparison between the mortality rates for acute heart attacks in Manitoba's rural hospitals, none of which had intensive care units, and urban hospitals, all of which had such units, suggest that there is no statistically significant differences between them.

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The Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, Manitoba Health and the College of Physicians and Surgeons are developing a process to make efficient use of the information from the studies. Each issue identified will be given a priority. Its impact will be determined, an action plan developed and a target date for implementation will be set.

For instance, the issue of geriatric assessment and treatment may be of medium priority. Manitoba has geriatricians in most of its regions, and it is assumed that geriatricians can reduce hospital or personal care home use by high‑risk seniors. If this is correct, the impact may be a lessened service to man for an aging population. The team which would launch a pilot project could involve the centre, one hospital, the Urban Hospital Council and the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

The study found that improving the physical and mental status of our elderly citizens will help increase the number of elderly people who age successfully and reduce health care use. In other words, successful aging is lifestyle related, not related to physician visits. The study suggests that the Manitoba data can be used to advantage to estimate the incidents and prevalence of diabetes and Alzheimer's diseases in Manitoba. Since Alzheimer's and other dementias have a major effect on both health and personal care home use as well as on formal home care services and family caregivers, investigations such as the projected Canada‑wide study which will seek to identify risk factors are a welcome first step in developing preventative and improved management measures.

As I said at the opening of the centre last year, we have a unique and substantial opportunity in Manitoba to take the lead nationally and, indeed, internationally in the development of sound research‑based health policy development. This is not only a remarkable opportunity for economic growth in the province, but provides a significant opportunity for better health services for all Manitobans.

I am pleased to have in the gallery today, Mr. Speaker, the director of the centre, Dr. Noralou Roos; the director of the Manitoba Research Data Bank, Dr. Leslie Roos; the author of the Manitoba studies report, which my critics have been given, Evelyn Shapiro; and the centre's administrator, Carolyn Kryschuk. They will be available to members of the media and members of this House in Room 254 at 3 p.m. this afternoon to provide further information on the report I have tabled today.

Thank you.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, we begin on this side of the House by thanking the minister for releasing this information and providing us with an update of what is considered to be a most outstanding centre here in Canada and internationally, that of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation. We appreciate this update. We have been anxiously awaiting progress reports and news coming out of this centre and will study this material very carefully.

At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we want to commend key individuals behind this centre who are with us in the gallery today, Dr. Noralou Roos, Dr. Leslie Roos, Evelyn Shapiro and Carolyn Kryschuk. We commend the work that they are doing. We believe that it would be most important for the future of our health care system to have substantive research in terms of health outcomes and evaluation.

The real question though, Mr. Speaker, today is what is the record of this government in terms of our health care system. The real question for us today is when will the studies end. This is fine. We need this understanding. We need this data. We need this compilation of experts and expertise here in the province, but we have at the same time in this province a minister who has in place dozens of studies under the Health Advisory Network which are accumulating on his desk, which are gathering dust, and we are awaiting action in some very critical areas that the Advisory Network is studying.

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Let me give you one example, Mr. Speaker. Last spring, around the same time that the minister announced the mandate for this Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, we asked the minister where is the report and the plan of action for the Health Advisory Network on the critical situation facing home care in the province of Manitoba, a program that is vital for services to senior citizens and for reforming our health care system. He said at that time he was waiting for the final report. We then asked him, when he had received the final report, where the action plan was. He said, Mr. Speaker, he has not had time to read the report.

More recently he has said he is waiting for translation of that document. Day after day after day this minister stalls behind piles of studies. Let me mention further the 44 studies of the Urban Hospital Council for which there is no evaluation mechanism being applied‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that the ministerial statement, as brought forward by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), dealt specifically with the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation. I would ask the honourable member to keep her remarks relevant to the said ministerial statement.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I addressed the home care issue and the lack of action in this area because it is precisely mentioned in the minister's statement and is part of this whole evaluation process.

I mention the evaluation mechanisms in place for the recommendations coming out of his closed‑door, elite, male network, making such decisions as selling services to Americans, closing the emergency ward at Misericordia Hospital, closing 22 beds at the Misericordia Hospital, laying off over 30 nurses, LPNs, at the Brandon General Hospital resulting in the closure of 24 beds at the Brandon General‑‑Dauphin General Hospital, a system which has created chaos, uncertainty, fears and worries on the part of citizens of Manitoba about their most treasured, prized service and program, that of health care and medicare.

Mr. Speaker, we have yet to see from this minister any sense of a vision, any sense that he is evaluating decisions being made, either by his Urban Hospital Council or by his bureaucrats or even closer by his own colleagues.

We are asking the minister today to take very seriously the themes, the ideas behind this whole Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation and to truthfully and honestly evaluate decisions he is making today that will have tremendous impact on patients and health care professionals and communities throughout the province of Manitoba.

We are all worried in the province of Manitoba. There is no denying that this government does not deny the serious impact of federal cutbacks in health care. What is required is a vision for health care reform not an agenda of health care cutbacks being disguised as health care reform. So, Mr. Speaker, we ask this government to turn its mind to that kind of an agenda.

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, last year when the announcement was made, we made it very clear at that time that in the history of a lifetime of any Minister of Health, there are only a few things people will remember them for. We said that there were two major initiatives. One was this centre, the second was the mental health reform. That was true in 1990 and is true today again. Mr. Speaker, it is very positive.

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I think the issue here is not the one bed cut here or the one closing of a ward there, the issue is how we are going to preserve the system which is costing us $1.8 billion for 1.3 million people. I think if the political parties are going to do anything good, and as a member of the Legislative Assembly, we are going to do anything better for the province, the policies which are going to be developed by this group which have very renown people and one of the best in this country and as we said at that time, this is the only centre I guess in North America which will not only provide direction to us here, but also to the rest of the country and most likely to the other part of the western world.

Mr. Speaker, that is why the issues which are going to be part of this group and a part of the other health reforms, it is going to be very important for us to be very logical and only be critical when things are done wrong, but not to be negative when we are sitting on this side of the House.

Mr. Speaker, the basic thing that we have to achieve here is to preserve the five basic principles of the Canada Health Act and that is comprehensiveness, affordability and publicly administer the medicare system. I think this policy and some of the policies taken by the government will help us to lead into that direction. Now we will ask the government to do one thing more which at times is lacking and that is a proper consultation process.

The consultation process‑‑[interjection] Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) is interrupting because he has nothing else positive to say. It seems like the positive impact for the sake of the taxpayer is not going to solve the NDP party. We want them to know that this is an important step. Let us be positive and that is what I was carrying on. It seems like interruptions will continue and that is a part of their nature.

Mr. Speaker, I was saying that the consultation process must involve all the health care providers and above all, the consumers of Manitoba, the taxpayers. We will ask the minister to consult on each and every step when the reforms are being made and specifically when this centre is going to study some of the issues. One issue which is extremely important is the protection of the confidentiality of the patient's record must be kept in mind because sometimes that can be a problem and studies are being conducted. No doubt, the data which the Health Services Commission has, that is the property of the government of Manitoba, but the patient has the right.

I will end up saying, Mr. Speaker, that we are very pleased. We will continue to monitor what is happening, but we will definitely say that we are moving in the right direction.

Mr. Speaker: Prior to recognizing the honourable Minister of Government Services, I note in the minister's statement where he says he is pleased to have in the gallery today certain individuals. I would also like to join in welcoming our guests here today, but I would like to point out to all honourable members that, by practices of this House, it is the Speaker who recognizes the presence of certain visitors.

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure of tabling the Annual Report of the Seniors Directorate, 1990‑91.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Volume 3, Summary Financial Statements, Public Accounts, 1990‑91, and also the Annual Report, Department of Finance, 1990‑91.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill 25‑The University of Manitoba Amendment Act

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), that Bill 25, The University of Manitoba Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'Universite du Manitoba) be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

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Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, I would like just to take a minute to recommend this bill to the House. It simply seeks to extend a right to the students of the University of Manitoba that was extended to students in the community colleges in the last session, mainly that they can elect and appoint their own representative to the Board of Governors of the University of Manitoba. Now that we have made that right available to students in other provincial educational institutions, I am certain that the House will see fit to support this amendment. Thank you.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 29‑The Municipal Council Conflict of Interest Amendment Act

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), that Bill 29, The Municipal Council Conflict of Interest Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les conflits d'interets au sein des conseils municipaux, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, this bill will prevent municipal and city councillors from exploiting their positions for personal gain after they have finished their tenure as elected officials. We are all well aware of the public decline in confidence generally of elected officials and the increase in cynicism in our society regarding elected officials. There are concrete measures that can address that loss of confidence.

Indeed we have the post‑election conflict‑of‑interest guidelines in place both provincially and federally. This bill simply extends that approach which has already been taken at other levels of government and establishes a cooling‑off period in which councillors cannot serve a private organization by participating in matters which he or she also participated in as a councillor.

Mr. Speaker, it is high time, surely, that this same protection for the public from post‑election conflict of interest was extended to City Hall in addition to the other two levels of government. I recommend this legislation for speedy passage for all members. Thank you.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 27‑The Business Practices Amendment Act

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), that Bill 27, The Business Practices Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les pratiques commerciales, be introduced and the same be now received and read for the first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, this bill will advance consumer protection as well as protect employees. The new Business Act was a step forward, but it needs crucial improvement such as the ones in this bill. It will protect employees from persecution when they unknowingly commit an unfair business practice or are directed to do so by the employer. It will also tighten that discretion. It would tighten the power of the director of the Consumers' Bureau to refuse to mediate or investigate complaints so that all the complaints will be investigated. Thank you.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 33‑The Vacations With Pay Amendment Act

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that Bill 33, The Vacations With Pay Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur le conge paye, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Lamoureux: This bill seeks to extend a reasonable and equitable level of paid vacation time to all employees in Manitoba and, in particular, to bring some equity to the position of many part‑time employees. The bill will require four weeks of paid vacation for any employee with 15 years service with a firm. In addition, it will extend all paid vacation entitlements enjoyed by full‑time workers to part‑time workers on a pro rata basis.

We believe that the worker who enjoys reasonable vacation benefits will, in the long run, be a more fulfilled and more productive worker, and we also believe that this applies equally to both unionized and nonunionized employees.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 26‑The Constitutional Referendum Act

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I would seek leave for the House in order to move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that the sponsorship of Bill 26, The Constitutional Referendum Act; Loi sur le referendum constitutionnel, currently standing in the name of Mr. Carr, be transferred to Mrs. Carstairs.

Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave to move that the sponsorship of Bill 26 be moved from Mr. Carr and transferred to the honourable Leader of the second opposition party? Does the honourable member have leave? Leave. It is agreed.

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that Bill 26, The Constitutional Referendum Act; Loi sur le referendum constitutionnel, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We had leave granted to the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to move that sponsorship of Bill 26 be moved from one member to another.

Now the question before the House is, it has been moved by the honourable member for Inkster, seconded by the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that sponsorship of Bill 26, The Constitutional Referendum Act; Loi sur le referendum constitutionnel, currently standing in the name of Mr. Carr be transferred to Mrs. Carstairs. Agreed?

Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered.

Now it has been moved by the honourable Leader of the second opposition party (Mrs. Carstairs), seconded by the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), that Bill 26, The Constitutional Referendum Act; Loi sur le referendum constitutionnel, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, it is time to return constitutional making decisions to the people of this province and this country. The Liberal Party of Manitoba would far more like to receive the initiative of a federal government which would allow every single Canadian whether they lived in a province or a territory to be given the opportunity of saying yes or no to any constitutional amendment that is proposed to the Constitution Act of Canada. The Canada Act at present requires only the approval of Legislatures and the Parliament of Canada. We believe that is inequitable. We believe that the Constitution belongs to the people. This is just a first small step in that process. However, if we do not do it at a provincial level, I do not believe that it will ever happen under the present government at the federal level.

Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency, Sir Brian Fall, the High Commissioner of Great Britain to Canada. Accompanying His Excellency is Mr. Douglas Scrafton, the head of the Political and Information Section of the British High Commission.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

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Also with us the afternoon in the Speaker's Gallery, we have Elliana Allon and her family. Elliana Allon is a Grade 5 student at Greenway School in Winnipeg and is a student at the Winnipeg Art Gallery. She is the Manitoba artist whose work represents Manitoba in the 1992 calendar, The Energy of our Resources: The Power of our Ideas.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Seated in the public gallery this afternoon from the Miami Elementary School, we have forty Grades 5 and 6 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Bill McKetiak. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Government Ministers

Hiring Authority

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on a number of occasions in this House last December, members of the government insisted that the hiring authority for the provincial government was delegated to departments.

The Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr. Praznik) on December 11 and other dates in this House repeatedly said the hiring authority is delegated to the departments, not to ministers.

My question is to the Deputy Premier. What is the policy of the government and the position of the government of the day? Is it delegated to the departments or is the hiring authority delegated to cabinet ministers?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that it only took one day of a response to the economic issues which were raised under a special debate by the members opposite to be dropped off of their agenda to try to find something else that the people may find favour with him and his party.

I think the member is well aware of what the policies are within this government as it relates to hiring. There is never any doubt as far as this government is concerned as to the openness with which we carry out the process. There is never any question, and there is no change in policies which have been carried on in the past number of years.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, given the fact that the government, the clerk of cabinet, obviously under the direction of cabinet, under the direction of the Premier, insisted that the Civil Service Commission, the alleged Civil Service independent commission, be asked to monitor and show diligence of the staffing authority with the former Minister of Education, the now Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach).

How can the government say in this House that the hiring authority is indeed attached to departments when in fact it is the Premier and cabinet asking for the monitoring to go with the individual minister over another department? If the government is truly serious about this issue, it would be open and release the study and investigation that took place in the Department of Education so all the staff in the Department of Education will be cleared and we will know clearly that the circumstances were in fact tied to the minister, not the department.

I ask the government: Will they release that study so we know clearly that it was the minister, not the department, who was responsible for the loss of the delegated hiring authority?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I think it should be made clear that the confidence that this government has in the members of cabinet and their work that has been carried out, that there is nothing that is being kept from the public as far as the activities of this government are concerned. The report which he refers to is the Civil Service property and not within the ministerial purview.

I think this has been handled openly and honestly, and I say that genuinely, on behalf of my colleagues. All colleagues in cabinet carry out their responsibilities with honour and integrity.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we have the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr. Praznik) standing up in this House day after day after day and saying that it is not the minister who is responsible for the loss of the hiring authority, it is the department, so everyone in the department is slammed by the minister. Then we have the cabinet directing and quoting: Given the circumstances surrounding the withdrawal of the hiring authority, that we ask that due diligence be followed and for the monitoring of the minister in the other department.

Will the government and the Deputy Premier please tell us: Is it the department or the minister? Clearly, the cabinet is saying it is the minister.

Will the Deputy Premier agree today to release the report on the loss of the delegating hiring authority of the minister so all the public will know where the responsibility lies with the loss of the hiring authority, clearly with the minister, as the memo directs, not with the department, as the minister of the Civil Service Commission said time after time in this Chamber?

Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I will compare the hiring practices and the activities of this cabinet any day with the fast practices of the former New Democratic Party. We will do a comparison any day with the activities of this government compared to the government which he sat with.

Small School

Rural Workshops Cancellation

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training.

If this government is truly serious about dealing with cross‑border shopping, why has the Department of Education and Training cancelled the small school rural workshops and been sending teachers to a workshop in North Dakota, United States?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for his question. I will look into that matter, and I will bring the information back to the House.

Mr. Chomiak: I will table a letter from the minister's department that indicates workshops are being handled in the States.

If they are serious about cross‑border shopping, will they stop this cross‑border education shopping and will they immediately cancel the workshop in the States and reinstate the workshops in rural Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, we in Education are also committed to the economy of Manitoba.

I have responded to the honourable member, I will bring back the information when I receive it.

Mr. Chomiak: I have a supplementary to the same minister.

Will this minister consult with the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) to see what impact the moving of this program from Canada to the United States will have on the rural economy?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, as a minister, I am in contact with my colleagues regularly. I will be discussing the matter as necessary. I will bring the answer back to the House.

Youth Unemployment Rate

Government Initiatives

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): We have heard daily of the increasing rates of unemployment, of the number of people on social assistance, of those who are unable to find gainful employment. Nowhere are those statistics more alarming than in the ages between 15 and 24. In the past year, that has seen an increase of nearly 4 percent. It is now at 16.8 percent. For young men, it is 21.9 percent. It is the only statistic in which we are above the national average.

Can the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism tell the House today what specific initiatives he has coming from his department with respect to the training of these young men and women who cannot find employment opportunities in present‑day Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, firstly, unless my information is incorrect, I would like to correct the honourable member. While nobody is satisfied with the youth unemployment rate in Manitoba or indeed throughout Canada, Manitoba's youth unemployment rate is the third lowest in Canada. While it is still a number that is totally unacceptable in terms of comparing ourselves, as was done by the honourable member, my information is quite different, showing that we are the third lowest.

The most important thing that we can do as a government, in terms of long‑term job opportunities for young people here in Manitoba, is to create the kind of competitive environment for businesses to be able to thrive and compete so that those young people can get long‑term quality jobs here in our province.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that we had the opportunity to discuss the economy at length yesterday. The only thing I am not pleased with is the lack of constructive suggestions that came from across the way.

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Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, I would be prepared to table labour force statistics January of 1992, which I am sure the minister has a copy of, which shows that the Canadian average is 21.1 for men between the ages of 15 and 24, and for us it is 21.9, which means we are above the national average.

Will the minister now tell this House what initiatives there are in his department to put these young men and young women to work in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I guess we have agreed to disagree on statistics. Mine show a report dated February 7, which is more recent, that while Manitoba's is 16.8, the national average is 18.1, and Manitoba is below the national average and the third lowest.

Mr. Speaker, that so much is not the point. The point is: What are we as a government doing and what are governments across Canada doing? Clearly, I think, when you see some of the initiatives and some of the training opportunities that our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) referred to yesterday that will be coming as part of our budget announcement in conjunction with the Department of Education and Training, you will see what we are doing on the training front.

I have already suggested that we do not support the kinds of suggestions that are coming from across the way of the short‑term make‑work projects that do not provide the opportunities for young people in this province to pursue opportunities that are here today and here tomorrow. We will continue to work on that for the long‑term benefit of the youth of Manitoba.

Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, thousands of Manitobans continue to leave. In a study in which this minister was directly affiliated, it was clearly shown that the majority of those who leave are between the ages of 19 and 35 and are among the best educated. The minister refuses to give us information as to what plans they have. Are we to assume that they have no plans?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated, in terms of the youth, there are two fundamental points in terms of the kinds of training opportunities that have been provided to date and the kind of training initiatives that you will see being announced as part of our budget process, as well as the kinds of training initiatives that we brought in last year through our Workforce 2000 program.

The other is also the kinds of long‑term opportunities that have to be created. Governments do not create those. Manitobans and businesses create those opportunities, and the way you do that is to create a competitive environment and a level playing field.

I believe that Manitobans can compete, given that opportunity. We are working to provide that opportunity. It would be nice, Mr. Speaker, to have opposition members recognize that for a change.

Port of Churchill

Grain Shipments

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, the ministerial statement the minister released gives no new assurances to northern Manitobans and leaves in doubt any proposed provincial government initiatives and the economic future of northern Manitobans.

Will the Minister of Highways and Transportation share with the House today, and concerned Manitobans, the anticipated volumes of grain to be shipped through Churchill this coming shipping season, or will it continue to be starved by low volumes as it has in the past?