LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, February 19, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

       

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

     

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

     The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

     THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

     It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

     Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

     The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

     WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett)

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

     The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

     THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

     It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

     Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

     The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

     WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Chomiak)

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

     The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

     THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

     It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

     Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

     The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

     WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis)

     

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

     

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement.

     It gives me great pleasure today to advise all members that the government of Manitoba has reached an agreement with Linnet International, which will move Manitoba a step closer to becoming a leader in the growing field of geographical computer mapping system.

     These agreements will provide the opportunity for this province to become a major player in a new and expanding industry.  We are using the government's need for improved information and program effectiveness as a stimulus for innovation and growth in the field of high technology.  We in this government have the vision to recognize the unique and innovative approach that Linnet offers in the use of geographic information systems.

     Mr. Speaker, with this agreement, the province becomes a partner, acquiring a 24 percent interest in Linnet to execute two projects that will utilize Linnet's expertise and unique approach in two areas of high public priority.  We have taken a part ownership in Linnet for two reasons.  The first quite simply is that we expect Linnet to be successful and to generate profits through export sales.  I believe that, by adopting Linnet's approach for our internal requirements, we are in fact providing a form of investment to Linnet and that we should have the opportunity to share in the company's success.

* (1335)

     The second reason is that Linnet's contract will be providing a common base for various types of land‑related information, information that is already in the public domain, which is owned by the province and which Linnet will use under licence.  Being a shareholder in the company and therefore taking part in the corporation's decision making is a responsible way of incorporating the public interest.  This is a clear example of how government can encourage economic development in the creation of a new industry here in Manitoba by investing in companies with innovative technologies.

     Two demonstration projects will be conducted using sophisticated computer technology.  The first project for the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation will use existing data and apply it in a graphic form to the quarter section level of farm land.  This will lead to a better method of interpreting data and will support the Crown corporation in its efforts to improve service to individual farmers.

     The second project will provide a means of integrating data from various sources to assist municipalities, planning districts and utilities in meeting the demand of urban and regional expansion.  The project will demonstrate this approach using the area between Winnipeg and Selkirk.  These projects will pool the information into a much more convenient and meaningful data source.

     Let me say, Mr. Speaker, the government still maintains the ownership of the information and controls the access and distribution of the information provided through these projects. As I mentioned, with this agreement, the province becomes a partner with I.D. Group of Winnipeg, specialists in consulting and project management recognized across Canada and abroad.  The other shareholder is SNC Inc. of Montreal, Canada's largest international engineering firm with expertise in information technology.  SNC also maintains a worldwide reputation for quality in a worldwide marketing organization.  The international expertise of both companies will greatly enhance Linnet's chances in the world market.

     GIS is a growing industry.  Experts predict that the industry will be worth $20 billion to $40 billion annually by the turn of the century.  For now, Manitoba will proceed slowly and carefully.  Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation will benefit from state of the art information systems, and users of the ex‑urban information will have a one‑stop information resource.

     One of the keys to Manitoba's economic future will be to build on natural strengths and create centres of excellence in industry.  Geographic information systems technology, as part of the information processing sector, can thrive in our province. Our central time zone, efficient communication links, affordable facilities, and well‑qualified work force make Manitoba an ideal location for information technology companies.

     Our government has worked hard to build a solid foundation for economic growth.  We have made a commitment to control spending and create a positive climate for investment.  Today's announcement is another example of our government's commitment to fostering growth, supporting innovation and establishing Manitoba's place in the global economy.

     Manitoba is already the geographic centre of Canada.  With this announcement, we can see Manitoba becoming a recognized world centre for geographic information systems.  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

 * (1340)

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  It is statements like these, and the way that the government has announced this statement following on a press release yesterday, that give those of us on this side very great concerns about the government and where it is going.  Quite frankly, no wonder there are 57,000 people unemployed in this province with the stewardship of members opposite and the way in which they are managing our economy and managing the assets of our province and the public of this province.

     These secret negotiations have gone on for some time.  I would note that there has been absolutely no tendering at all about dealing with public assets and moving them over to one private firm, a private firm that has close connections to members opposite, the Conservative government and the province of the day.  It is secret negotiations dealing with public assets being moved over to a private company.

     Even conservative Alberta, with their ideology close to their cousins across the way, decided not to proceed with moving public assets over to one private company.  In fact, they said very clearly that they would have‑‑[interjection] Yes, public assets, the information that has been gathered by the public, paid for by the public, available to the public, which is going to be privatized by members opposite in pursuit of their ideological objectives with their friends in the private sector.

     Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no explanation of how much this company is worth.  There is no correlation between the amount of money the government is paid and the value of the company.  The government could not provide any answers to the media that was able to attend their last‑minute announcement yesterday, because they do not have that information.  They wanted to have this announcement almost in the dead of night, having it late yesterday afternoon, tied to other press conferences the government was holding on other announcements.

     Mr. Speaker, these are public assets that have been gathered over a number of years and have geographic and geological information that is maintained by the public.  We have great concern on the pattern of this government opposite to take public records and public assets and privatize them.  In the 1980s, there was considerable privatization of resources and utilities by Conservative governments, and now private companies in the information society want to get and obtain a considerable amount of assets and records in the public sector.

     Mr. Speaker, the minister opposite is correct.  It is a tremendous potential for growth of $20 billion to $40 billion, but the question is:  Who is going to control that growth, and to whose benefit will it be?  Will it be to the benefit of the public of Manitoba, or will it be a benefit to a few private members and a few individuals?

     Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no cost benefit in terms of jobs for the province of Manitoba in the announcement of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).  We do not know how many jobs‑‑I would suggest the minister should table how many jobs will be lost in the public sector versus how many jobs will be gained in the private sector.

     Mr. Speaker, this company came to us when we were in government as well, and our preliminary review of this project was that it was going to cost us considerable jobs in the public sector and considerable rights of individuals and citizens of the province of Manitoba to move it over to the private sector.  That was five years ago, and this type of project has been rejected by a number of other provinces in a number of other jurisdictions for the reasons we have outlined.  We think the government should not be proceeding this way, because we believe, at the end of the day, we will have less access to our own information and we will have less people working in this area in the province of Manitoba.  Thank you very much.

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, we have an announcement today, but we have very little information.  We do not know what the people of Manitoba have invested in.  We do not know if we bought a pig in a poke.  We simply do not have any information, just like we had very little information when the previous NDP government entered into a Unisys contract, just as this government entered into a contract with Wang.

     When we do not go to the public tendering process, we do not know whether we have good deals or bad deals, because we do not know what alternative deals there are for us to examine so that we can justify in our own minds that we have the best possible deal.

     We have only this government's word for the fact that this is a wonderful deal.  Well, we had the NDP government's word that Unisys was state of the art for our hospitals and was going to be the most miraculous thing since sliced bread.

     We had this government's word that the Wang deal was going to be just a wonderful deal in terms of the computerization of the entire operations of government.  Both of them have failed to live up to expectations, and the tragedy is that we do not know whether Linnet is going to be a very exciting adventure or whether it is not going to be a very exciting adventure.  We do not know whether there were alternative firms who could have done a better job, and we do not know any of those things because this government chose not to ask for bids at large so that we could be assured that they had cut the best possible deal for the citizens and the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba.

     I hope, Mr Speaker, that they have cut a succcessful deal.  I hope that the interests of Manitobans will be protected in terms of their information bank and in terms of their confidentiality. I hope this will be a moneymaker, but because I have not been able to make a judgment any more than they have been able to make a judgment, I have very serious concerns.

 * (1345)

     

TABLING OF REPORTS

     

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling today the Nineteenth Annual Report dated March 31, 1991, for Legal Aid Manitoba.

     I am tabling today the Twentieth Annual Report for 1990‑91 of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission.

     I am tabling the Annual Report for 1990‑91 of the Manitoba Police Commission.

     I am tabling the 1990 Annual Report for The Manitoba Human Rights Commission.

     

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

       

Bill 46‑The Jury Amendment Act

 

 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 46, The Jury Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les jures), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable Attorney General have leave?

Some Honourable Members:  No.

Mr. Speaker:  No.  Leave is denied.

     

Bill 47‑The Petty Trespasses Amendment Act

       

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Perhaps if I try again, Mr. Speaker, honourable members in the New Democratic Party will come to their senses.

     I ask for leave to move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 47, The Petty Trespasses Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'intrusion), be introduced and that the same be now read and received the first time.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable Attorney General have leave?

Some Honourable Members:  Yes.

Some Honourable Members:  No.

Mr. Speaker:  No?  Leave is denied.

Mr. McCrae:  So much for co‑operation.

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

* * *

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  Mr. Speaker, the spirit that this House exercised with respect to the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) the other day‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Under Introduction of Bills?

An Honourable Member:  Yes, Mr. Speaker.

     

Point of Order

       

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, we have some very clear rules in this House about what items of business we deal with.

     We are currently dealing with the Routine Proceedings which is Introduction of Bills.  There are a number of bills that are listed that have gone through the proper notice procedures.  I know we have a member introducing one of those bills today.

     I would ask if it is in order for the government, which has filed a number of bills which have not yet been placed as part of the routine proceedings that are not yet in order, in terms of the normal notice procedures, to stand to attempt to bring them through and then to make the type of comments the Minister of Labour did, the extraneous comments.  In fact, I would suggest that is not in order, and we should proceed with those bills brought in in the normal procedure, a number of which are waiting for introduction on first reading currently today, Mr. Speaker.

* (1350)

Mr. Speaker:  On the point of order raised, the honourable Attorney General had asked for leave.  Leave had been denied. Therefore, that settled the issue.

     On the issue of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), if the honourable minister wanted to make a statement you could have stood up during Ministerial Statements.

     

Bill 42‑The Amusements Amendment Act

 

Mr. Speaker:  Now under Introduction of Bills, the honourable Minister of Labour.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  Mr. Speaker, with leave, I would like to move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 42, The Amusements Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les divertissements, be introduced and that the same now be read and received for a first time.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable Minister of Labour have leave? No, leave is denied.

     

Bill 52‑The Pas Health Complex Incorporation Amendment Act

       

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis), that Bill 52, The Pas Health Complex Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation "The Pas Health Complex", be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Lathlin:  Mr. Speaker, just a brief explanation to the bill. The Pas Health Complex Incorporated currently has a board of directors consisting of 10 members.  However, it has attempted to expand the membership to 13 and that is to give the community a wider representation at the board of The Pas Health Complex.

Motion agreed to.

     

Introduction of Guests

       

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon, from the George McDowell School, sixty Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Mr. Jack Watts.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay).

     Also, from the Sandy Bay School, we have thirty‑three Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Mr. Paramour.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings).

     On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Round Table on the Environment

Project Review Process

     

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, we want to formally welcome the Premier (Mr. Filmon) back.  I would hate to admit that we missed him, but we welcome him back to the House.  The animation has already been raised a bit by your presence again, and we wish you a speedy recovery.  We even note that your crutches, I think, are colour co‑ordinated with the political party that you represent.  We know that your injury is very painful.  We wish you all the best in your recovery.  We will try to keep you off your feet, but we had better start with a question to the First Minister.

     Mr. Speaker, we were proud to have co‑signed the proposal with business to have round tables in all provinces and the national government to have business, labour, government, environmental people working together on the economic and environmental consequences of very major projects.  We applauded the provincial government, including the Premier, when he agreed to chair a round table in Manitoba to carry through on that recommendation.

     Since that time, we have been very concerned and have expressed our concern that the round table in this province has been a public relations exercise.  In fact, last year, I recall a public relations firm was hired for a quarter million dollars, yet the major decisions dealing with our environment like Oak Hammock Marsh, like Repap, like Rafferty‑Alameda, like Conawapa were not being discussed and decisions being made in a round table in a sustainable development way but rather the emphasis was on public relations.

     Today, we find a document signed by the Chamber of Commerce that again has said that this process by the government has tended to be a public relations orientation.  They are now calling on a real sustainable development process for this province.

     I would ask the Premier:  What action is his government going to take to change it from a public relations exercise to a truly comprehensive decision‑making body for jobs and the environment in our Manitoba province?

 * (1355)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his welcoming‑back remarks.  I can assure him that dealing with my broken ankle is not nearly as painful as listening to the rhetoric from across the way.

     Speaking of empty rhetoric, we know exactly the situation that this province faced when we took office in 1988 and did form the round table and did put in place the most extensive comprehensive process for environmental assessment and review that has ever been seen in this province.  We know that, when we came into place, we had Manfor up at The Pas, owned and operated by the provincial government, which had never been licensed by the previous administration environmentally.  We had it being the only pulp and paper mill possibly in the world that from time to time discharged raw effluent right into the river without any checks and balances, without anything being done to it.

     We had them construct Limestone, the largest hydro‑electric project in North America during the previous couple of decades, without a public environmental assessment review.

     That was the attitude that the administration, of which the Leader of the Opposition was a part, put forward.  We put the round table in place as a means of altering for all time and future public policy with respect to environmental assessment and economic development.

     I can say to the Leader of the Opposition that that round table has been getting compliments from right throughout the country.  In fact, we had recently the chairman of the education and information committee of the national round table in Winnipeg at one of our round table meetings telling those present that ours was the leading round table in the country in terms of the work that it was doing, in terms of the development stage at which it was, that it was leading in showing the way in a whole host of initiatives that were not being matched by any other round table in the country and that we were in fact taking the lead role in so many areas of round tables, showing the way in the development of a sustainable development policy and implementing it throughout all levels of government departments.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to note that the Premier does find the debate in this House painful.  He should find it painful, with the number of people who are unemployed and the number of people on welfare in the province of Manitoba.  He should find this Chamber very painful for him and his government, with the lack of action in our economy.

     The Premier announced last year at the round table meeting, the public relations meeting that we attended, that we had the best environmental act in the country, and we were proud of the fact that we did pass that act.  We also congratulated the government for establishing the round table, but there is absolutely no sense having a round table if the people who are participating on it are calling it a public relations exercise. They are calling for an action‑oriented round table.

     I would ask the Premier:  Will he be submitting major projects that affect jobs and the environment to that round table for written decisions and written advice to all the members of the public, and would he perhaps start with the Conawapa project, where there is considerable debate going on in this province on the timing of the Conawapa for domestic use of the province of Manitoba?

     

Point of Order

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I know we have rules in this House which ask members to rise, but it seems to me totally inappropriate to ask the Premier to rise and possibly endanger his other ankle.

Mr. Filmon:  I thank the Leader of the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker.  Just to demonstrate how steady I am, I want to assure her that I would not do anything that endangered my other leg, and I thank her for her concerns.  I speak better and I think the microphone picks up better if I am standing, so I will do it that way until I have a problem.  Thank you.

* * *

 * (1400)

Mr. Filmon:  I just want to say to the Leader of the Opposition, in response to his postamble, that it is not the rhetoric of the opposition that is painful, it is the empty rhetoric.  I happened to go through Hansard and read the so‑called emergency debate on the economy that was instituted by the NDP on Monday of this week.

     Mr. Speaker, by leave, all parties, because the economy is such a major concern, wanted to have the opportunity to hear the constructive ideas of the NDP party.  There was not one new idea.  There was not one constructive suggestion.  There was just a lot of empty rhetoric from the New Democrats, people who presumably have been sitting preparing for this session to resume for more than two months.  That is what is painful, because these are serious issues that we have to deal with.

     Our government is consulting and being involved with Ministers of Finance right across the country.  I am talking with Premiers almost daily.  We are fighting similar battles, and we have similar challenges, but what we get from the opposition and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), the NDP party, is they are reduced to going back to their old times of 15 years ago, the "should have beens" and "what have beens" and "never was's." That is what is really painful.

     I want to say in response to his question‑‑[interjection] Well, if you want to have a lot of preamble and postamble, I will have to respond to it, I am sorry.

     The fact of the matter is that the individual who made comment is not a part of the round table and does not appear to be at all familiar with any of the work that the round table is doing, as near as I could tell, Mr. Speaker, has not bothered to try and get information on the round table efforts and is, from a distance, supposing what it is and what it should do without any information.  Of course, if you have that kind of commentary based on lack of information or involvement, then you can have misunderstandings.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the business community, the labour community, the environmental community, the education community and the government community is on the round table.  The whole idea is to get a group of people together to develop a consensus on the major economic and environmental decisions before us.  I am surprised the Premier would repudiate one of the participants, one of the bodies that is part of the government's round table because‑‑[interjection] again the Premier‑‑I was absolutely surprised that he would attack the integrity of an organization rather than dealing with the substance of the concerns.

     Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier very simply, given the fact that there is a great deal of conflict in this province about the timing of projects like Conawapa and the economic and environmental consequences of this, and given the fact we have a round table that is established in this province, would the Premier agree to submit this project to that round table so that a consensus could be developed in our province about major environmental and economic decisions, and we can move forward as a province rather than having the debate that this round table that the Premier chairs is only a "public relations body"?

Mr. Filmon:  Mr. Speaker, I repeat just so the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has some valid facts to base his statement on, not commentary out of a news article, the Chamber of Commerce is not represented on the round table.  There are many business people, labour people.  There are people from the environment community, and none of them have given that criticism.  This is a body that is not involved with it, that does not appear to have much information on the work of the round table, that has gratuitously made comment.  That does not make them expert.

     Mr. Speaker, with respect to changing the forum under which the Conawapa project will be reviewed, I think it would be totally inappropriate to take the Conawapa project review out of the hands of a full and open public environmental review process, open to everybody to appear before it, to expert witness and everything else, take it out of that kind of public forum, which is the best forum, I would say, in Canada and put it into a back‑room forum of a committee such as the round table, which is not accessible to the public, not open to public debate and consideration.  That would be the wrong way to go.

     I know New Democrats did not have public environmental assessment or review of Limestone, Mr. Speaker.  That was a great, great failing.  We are not going back to those days.  We are going to have a full federal‑provincial joint‑panel public environmental assessment and review process which will be the best and most thorough in Canada.

     

Conawapa Dam Project

Public Utilities Board Review

 

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the new Minister of Energy and Mines.

     The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce has criticized the government for proceeding to build Conawapa before it was needed.  The original PUB review wrongly assessed that Conawapa power would be needed for domestic consumption in the year 2000.

     As the First Minister will not take this to the round table, which is the committee which deals with jobs and the environment, will the new Minister of Energy and Mines resubmit the Conawapa project to the Public Utilities Board?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  I want you and this House to know that this government has two new processes to the further development of any Hydro projects, a complete environmental hearing process that everyone is welcome to participate in; secondly, it has gone before the Public Utilities Board, which fully endorsed the initiative that was established.

     Listening to the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer), Mr. Speaker‑‑and this is in the throne speech, in 1988, he said, we will fight the mothballing of our Manitoba Hydro program right down the line this session and the next session‑‑[interjection] the member who just asked the question, in 1990 budget debate, and he is putting his position forward. Yes, he does support the Conawapa project.

     Now I am having a difficult time, Mr. Speaker.  With two new processes added, creation of 25,000 person years of jobs, leaving the province of Manitoba with a completely paid‑for project in Conawapa in the year 2022 and some $900 million worth of economic benefits to the province, that the member would ask such a question, that he is now not supporting it, coming from northern Manitoba.

Mr. Hickes:  Mr. Speaker, to correct the minister's statement, we are not saying yes or no.  We are saying, do the job right.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I remind the honourable member, this is not a time for debate.

Mr. Hickes:  I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey):  Is he taking the advice of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) who said on Monday that Conawapa is an environmentally benign project and urges cutting the timetable for the environmental hearings in half in order to ram the Conawapa project through?

     

Point of Order

       

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.  It is a matter of order when there is a deliberate misrepresentation of what the member has put on the record.

     The debate, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has already referred to, was in the course of the debate on the economy.  It was a suggestion that was made out to honourable members opposite that, if indeed it was jobs and more jobs that they were looking for, now and immediate, then suggestions like looking at the timeframe for the environmental hearings for Conawapa could be coming from members opposite.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable minister does not have a point of order.  It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

An Honourable Member:  On the same point of order.

Mr. Speaker:  There was no point of order.

 * (1410)

     

Point of Order

       

Mr. Hickes:  On a new point of order, I would ask the Minister of Natural Resources to read Hansard, February 17‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Point Douglas does not have a point of order.  Your question has already been put.

* * *

Mr. Downey:  Mr. Speaker, the other comment I would like to make in response is that I am not sure that what is being commented upon by the individual from the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce is in fact the official position of the Winnipeg Chamber.  I will refer to a news report that indicated the chamber has not taken a position as far as I know on Conawapa.  That is this Mr. Cantor, who is now clearly indicating in a news report that it is not the position of the Winnipeg Chamber.

Mr. Hickes:  Can the minister tell this House whether he or any member of his cabinet contacted Ontario Hydro or the government of Ontario to discuss renegotiations of the power sales?

Mr. Downey:  No, in fact, just a little bit of the background for the member as well‑‑I will quote what his Leader said.  This was in 1989, Mr. Speaker.

     Mr. Doer said he was supportive of the Conawapa project when it was first announced in 1989.  In fact, he claimed he and Premier Pawley's NDP government had signed an agreement between Manitoba and Ontario Hydro in August 1987.  He said the idea is good for the province.  He said the contract will create major jobs.

     No, we have not contacted Ontario Hydro as to whether we want to change the deal.  We believe it is a good deal for Manitoba Hydro.  We believe it is a good deal for Manitoba all along.

       

Conawapa Dam Project

Legal Opinion Request

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, in December, the Liberal party of Manitoba revealed that the Ontario Hydro deal had in fact not been ratified by the Ontario government within the deadlines required by the contract.  The government produced a hastily prepared legal opinion, a legal opinion which not only had incorrect dates and spelling mistakes and suspicious conclusions, but which this government has today refused to table and will not give us access to, even through Freedom of Information.

     Will the First Minister now tell us if they are committed to open government, as they committed in the 1990 campaign, and will they now table the complete legal opinion and not just phrases so that we can know how to fit the mistakes in with the rest of the copy?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, to the Leader of the Liberal Party, we do have legal opinion which in fact indicates the deal is authentic and the agreement is authentic.  There has been a portion of the legal opinion provided for the member, and I think that all of the information dealing with the subject matter that is pertinent to this has been provided to the member of the opposition.

Mrs. Carstairs:  We do not share this government's fear of tabling legal opinions or indeed its need to hide them.  We would like to table the following legal opinion which we commissioned, also from a reputable Ontario law firm, which in fact says that there is significant doubt as to the validity of the agreement.

     Will this government now, on the basis of this new agreement, table its opinion so that the two can be compared as to which perhaps is the better legal opinion?

Mr. Downey:  I am quite prepared to take the information that the Leader of the Liberal Party has provided.  I am quite prepared to assess what has been tabled by the member of the Liberal Party.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Obviously, they are not committed to the process of open government.

     

Public Utilities

Board Review

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the former Minister responsible for Hydro said he was not sure that the deal was still a good one, but that Manitoba could not get out of it at that particular moment in time, nor would they renegotiate.

     Well, it is obvious that renegotiation is indeed possible, and it is also possible to send all of the new information to the Public Utilities Board.

     Why will this minister not commit today, in light of new facts, new very relevant facts, about need for hydro‑electricity, about the validity of the contracts?  Why will he not refer the whole issue to the Public Utilities Board?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Because it has been reviewed by the Public Utilities Board, Mr. Speaker, endorsed by the Public Utilities Board, being a major benefit to this province both in long‑term benefits as far as the economic benefits in some $900 million worth of value to this province, the creation of some 1,000, the equivalent of some 1,000 25‑year careers and jobs, or 22,000 to 25,000 person years of employment, and it has been reviewed by the Public Utility Board and spoken to clearly by the Public Utility Board that it is a good project for Manitoba based on the data that it was essential to make the decision for the Public Utility Board.

       

Dutch Elm Disease

Funding Restoration

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, the evidence is clear from Minneapolis, Ottawa and other cities that, when you reduce the Dutch elm disease conservation programs, you lose trees at a very rapid rate, in some cases, as rapidly as five years.

     In Winnipeg, we will lose $1.1 billion of community assets; we will lose the character of neighbourhoods like Wolseley, Crescentwood, Jubilee and others.

     Mr. Speaker, there is no point in Winnipeg 2000 asking us to celebrate Winnipeg's quality of life, because when we lose those 200,000 trees in Winnipeg, there are going to be 200,000 reasons for every Winnipegger to remember this Tory government.

     I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs:  Will he recommend to the cabinet, as the man who speaks for Winnipeg in this cabinet, the restoration of the Dutch elm disease fund to the l988‑l989 levels?