LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, February 20, 1992

       

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

     

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Shirley Gable, Leona Folster, Marnie Chivers and others, requesting the government to show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ronald Santos, Karen Jensen, Sharon Provak and others, requesting the government to show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brian Barnabe, John Schick, Charles H. Cameron and others, requesting the government to show its strong commitment of dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

     

TABLING OF REPORTS

       

Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of The Communities Economic Development Fund Act, and responsible for A. E. McKenzie Co. Ltd.):  Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Communities Economic Development Fund Annual Report for the year 1990‑91, and also the A. E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. for the year ended October 31, 1991.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Third Quarterly Report, nine months ending December 31, 1991, The Manitoba Hydro‑Electric Board.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  I would like to table the 1990‑91 Annual Report of the Department of Labour.

     

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

     

Bill 46‑The Jury Amendment Act

 

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 46, The Jury Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les jures), be introduced and the same be now received and read a first time.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) have leave?  No.  Leave is denied.

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Mr. McCrae:  Perhaps if I try again, Mr. Speaker, honourable members of the New Democratic Party will come to their senses.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

     

Bill 47‑The Petty Trespasses Act

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): With the leave of the House, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 47, The Petty Trespasses Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'intrusion), be introduced and the same be now received and read a first time.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) have leave?  Leave is denied.

     

Introduction of Guests

       

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Acadia Junior High School, thirty Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Carla Bates.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).

     On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

       

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry

Recommendation Implementation

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, this Chamber and all parties have discussed the creation, the workings and the action of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry in the province of Manitoba.

     This inquiry was, by all accounts, one of the most thorough investigations and consultations with aboriginal people across Manitoba and indeed across North America.  It was thorough in its recommendations dealing with economic issues, with social issues, with justice issues dealing with aboriginal people, Canada's first peoples, in our own community.  It came out with many recommendations that we on this side believe are worthy of implementation and we believe are worthy of implementation of any government.

     The report was really a condemnation of governments past, whether they be federal, provincial, in the administration of our justice system when it concluded, and it started its report that justice system has failed Manitoba's aboriginal peoples on a massive scale.  It has been insensitive, inaccessible, it has arrested and imprisoned aboriginal people in grossly disproportionate numbers.  Aboriginal people who are arrested are more likely than nonaboriginal people to be denied bail, et cetera.

     Mr. Speaker, this is not an issue that over 125 years of history is the responsibility, accountability of government opposite, nor is it the responsibility of this side.  It is our collective responsibility in terms of the aboriginal justice system, the aboriginal economic and social conditions that are within our province.

     I would ask the government then, why did the government take such a weak‑kneed approach to the aboriginal justice system?  Why did it not endorse many of the principal recommendations in that report?  Why did it in fact just give us four technical committees and three subcommittees rather than a principled stand on fundamentally changing the justice system in our province as recommended in the report?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable Leader of the Opposition has asked an extremely lengthy question but suggests in his question that the government of Manitoba has somehow not endorsed the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.

     If the honourable Leader of the Opposition had been paying attention on the day that the government responded to the report, late in January, he would have seen that we indeed are endorsing many meaningful recommendations made by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.  We propose to move on those recommendations, which we have accepted.

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     We want to do that with the help and co‑operation of the aboriginal organizations that we have referred to.  We have put forward that invitation, and we propose to move forward.  We propose not to get bogged down with the eternal rhetoric that seems to form the aboriginal justice policy of the honourable Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues.  For example, the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) suggests that each and every single recommendation in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report ought to be followed just as it is laid out.  We do not accept that approach.  That is the approach of the New Democratic Party, which is quite inconsistent with their position taken with respect to the task force on the Constitution.

     

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry

Recommendation Implementation

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, when he released the report in August of last year, said, and I quote, after explaining that we have done too many things for aboriginal people he now intends to work with aboriginal people.  Those were the comments of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General in August.

     Yet at the press conference in January, the committee chaired by the Deputy Premier, the government rejected a joint partnership strategy to implement the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the recommendations for an aboriginal justice committee that would work in joint partnership with the province of Manitoba and the aboriginal leadership and community.

     I would ask the Deputy Premier, why did you reject the opportunity and the recommendation to have a partnership with aboriginal people, as recommended by commissioners Sinclair and Hamilton?  Why did you reject that and instead go with these working groups and subcommittees, et cetera, that you announced at the end of January?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs, responsible for Native Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say to the Leader of the Opposition that we have enjoyed over the past three to four years a good working relationship with the aboriginal community as it relates to not only the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, which was mandated to do two specific things, and that was to look into the J.J. Harper and the Helen Betty Osborne incidents, which were both very unfortunate situations.

     What we have offered is in principle not unlike a justice commission.  The working groups are an invitation for the different representatives from the aboriginal community to join with our departments and move forward on those recommendations that are in fact accomplishable.  That is the path and the process which we have established.  We are waiting for the aboriginal people to bring forward the names of the individuals whom they want to sit on those working committees.

     It is time for action, not further study, as my colleague the Minister of Justice has said many times.

       

Aboriginal Justice Inquiry

Recommendation Implementation

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, the government totally misses the partnership recommendation of the commission's report from Sinclair and Hamilton, totally misses the idea of a difference between a partnership in our justice system and advisory groups that the government will establish and disestablish as they so choose when they so choose.

     I have a final supplementary question to the Deputy Premier. The report fairly thoroughly criticized the police investigation dealing with the J.J. Harper shooting and came out with some very strong recommendations to have an independent‑‑an independent‑‑process dealing with shootings of citizens and any of the police forces of Manitoba.

     Again, and I ask this to the Deputy Premier:  Why did the government, in light of the statements that they wanted to proceed with action, not proceed with an independent decision and an independent process for police shootings?  They have had the report for eight months.  The report is very thorough on this issue.  Why are we again just consulting on this issue?  Why is the government not taking decisive action in this very, very crucial area?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):  We have taken decisive action and, in fact, the intent of that particular recommendation has been in effect since the shooting incident in Brandon.  I cannot remember the date offhand, but it was since the J.J. Harper shooting.  Two shootings in Brandon and one in Winnipeg since that time have been the subject of independent review by the RCMP.

     

Aboriginal Justice System

Government Position

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, the Law Reform Commission of Canada, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report and also the two Alberta reports, as well as the Donald Marshall inquiry report, have all recommended an aboriginal justice system because they have all recognized that the current judicial system is apparently not working for aboriginal people.

     There are already other systems in operation, such as the Quebec Civil Code, the American tribal court systems, the Canadian military systems operating in Canada and not undermining the total system.

     Will this minister tell this House:  After he endorsed the Manitoba all‑party Task Force on the Constitution, which included by the way the inherent right to self‑government for aboriginal people, will this minister today tell this Assembly what his plan of action is as to an aboriginal justice system?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable member again surprises me as a member of the task force, an all‑party task force which came out with‑‑

Mr. Lathlin:  You endorsed the inherent right to self‑government.

Mr. McCrae:  Well, I cannot quite hear myself when the honourable member for The Pas wants to continue asking his question from his seat, but I think he is finished now, and maybe I can proceed.

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     I have trouble with the NDP policy of advocating separate societies and separate systems when we have taken an all‑party unanimous task force position that the inherent right to the self‑government of aboriginal people ought to be exercised within the Canadian Constitution and that all Canadians are subject to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

     When the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) suggests that aboriginal people ought to have their own charters, that means 61 charters in the province of Manitoba.  We do not know whether those charters would work with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada.  I am not quite sure if the honourable member knows what he is talking about, but I do know that we have put forward many reforms which will achieve the objectives that were set by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.

     

Point of Order

       

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  On a point of order, if the minister is referring to my comments to the aboriginal appointed Members of Parliament, no wonder he does not know how to deal with‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.  It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

     

Child Abuse Allegations

Justice Department Investigation

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, on Monday night, during debate, I very clearly overheard the Minister of Justice‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member, kindly put your question now, please.

Mr. Lathlin:  I ask the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, because he has accused band chiefs of a coverup, will he now agree to conduct an inquiry into allegations of a coverup of child abuse and spousal abuse on the reserves, as has been repeated in a request by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable member is totally wrong.  I have never accused him or anyone else of a coverup.  If the honourable member is referring to an exchange across the floor, then maybe we could discuss that exchange.  I would be pleased to do that.  I certainly did not accuse anybody of a coverup.

     There were recently serious allegations, though, involving potential obstruction in the case of some child abuse cases in Manitoba, matters of extreme concern, not only to me, but I assume also to the honourable member for The Pas.  At the present time, we have an inquest in progress in Brandon with respect to one of those cases, and one of our prosecutors is re‑examining a number of files relating to child abuse.  When that process is finished, we will evaluate the situation at that time.

     

Judicial System

Gods River, Manitoba

     

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker is:  Will the Attorney General, the Minister of Justice, order the court to start having hearings in Gods River, because as of December, there have been no court hearings in Gods River? People have been forced to go to Gods Lake or even to Thompson. That is one of those recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry that the report had contained that trials be held in communities where the offence was committed.  This is no longer occurring in Gods River.

     I ask the minister today:  Will he order the courts to be held in Gods River rather than people having to go to Gods Lake Narrows and even to Thompson at great expense?

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable member raises a matter that has been raised with me by the leadership of the community of Gods River.  As soon as I received that concern, I communicated with the chief judge for the Province of Manitoba.  That matter is being looked into as we speak.

     

Conawapa Dam Project

Renegotiation

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of mines and energy.

     Evidence continues to mount that the Ontario Hydro sale on Conawapa is not in the best interest of Manitoba.  Contrary to indications given yesterday, the business community in Winnipeg did in fact indicate, yesterday in their release, questioning the business sense of megaprojects.

     Earlier this month Ontario Hydro cancelled or deferred 53 new power stations that were going to be built in conjunction with the private sector.  Mr. Speaker, the $260,000‑a‑year chairperson, Marc Eliesen, indicated at that time that Ontario simply did not need that level of power.  That was his indication.

     My question for the minister of mines and energy is:  Can he tell the House whether the Ontario government or officials of Ontario Hydro have approached him or officials at Manitoba Hydro, to his knowledge, to discuss renegotiating the Conawapa deal, given the excess capacity which clearly now their chief officer is indicating that they have?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  A couple of things, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to refer to the ministry as the ministry as it is, that is the ministry of Energy and Mines.

     As far as the business community is concerned, I would like to refer to a letter which I received yesterday from the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce.  I will just quote one brief paragraph:  I would like to apologize for the impression left that the Winnipeg Chamber does not support Conawapa.  We have never taken that position, signed by the president of the Winnipeg Chamber.

     I would as well like to say, Mr. Speaker, that I have not received any direct contact from Ontario Hydro since I have been in the ministry of Energy and Mines.  I have not been in direct contact.  However, I will check with Hydro as to whether or not there has been a meeting requested with Manitoba Hydro.  To this date, I have no knowledge of them wanting to back out of the deal that was signed between the Premier of Manitoba and the Premier of Ontario, by the way, who was a Liberal Premier of Ontario at that time.

Mr. Edwards:  From Ontario's point of view, there is no doubt this is a good deal, Mr. Speaker.

     My question for the Minister of Energy and Mines is:  Has he or officials of Manitoba Hydro considered the possibility that Ontario Hydro's failure, to his knowledge, to contact himself or Manitoba Hydro about renegotiating this deal, in view of the fact that they are cancelling 53 new power stations, is a clear signal that Ontario Hydro knows full well the extent of the good deal, the sweetheart deal it got from Manitoba in the Conawapa deal?

Mr. Downey:  Mr. Speaker, first of all, as far as Ontario Hydro workings are concerned and the decisions they make, it is not the business of the Manitoba government, so I would find that question outside the jurisdiction of Manitoba and my responsibility.  The question first is out of order, as it deals with‑‑[interjection] Mr. Speaker, the Hydro sale that is being proposed to Ontario Hydro has gone before the Public Utilities Board and fully endorsed as a good project for the people of Manitoba and for Manitoba Hydro.  Does he want to deny the employment of some 22,000 person years of work?  Does he want to deny a $700‑million to $900‑million return to the people of Manitoba through Manitoba Hydro?  Is that what he wants to deny the people?

     As we have said, it has to go through the strictest of environmental process, and it will.  The Public Utilities Board has said that it is a good deal for the people of Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro, and Mr. Speaker, we plan to proceed on the basis of responsible government.

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister now use the legal opinion which we placed on his table yesterday as leverage, the only leverage he has at this point, to renegotiate this deal? Let me just quote again the former minister's statement:  Given‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Downey:  Mr. Speaker, I am not a lawyer, and I do not pretend to be a lawyer, like some individuals in this Assembly who have just asked the question.  What I do want to say is that I have referred the letter, the so‑called legal opinion, from the Liberal Party that was tabled yesterday, I have forwarded that to Manitoba Hydro‑‑

     

Point of Order

     

Mr. Edwards:  Mr. Speaker, so‑called legal opinion?  Is the minister questioning that it was a legal opinion?  Is that what he is saying‑‑

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Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for St. James does not have a point of order.

* * *

Mr. Downey:  I have referred the document that was tabled by the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) yesterday to Manitoba Hydro for their response, as she and all members of this House know that it is governed by a board of directors which is appointed by government and managed by a competent group of managers.  I am waiting for the response from those individuals.

     

Department of Environment

Work Order Enforcement

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, recently we have learned of a number of incidents where the Department of Environment seems to have trouble enforcing work orders to deal with hazardous waste.

     First, we have a family in Stonewall with PCBs in their back yard that used to be part of a municipal golf course, and the minister has reversed and retracted a work order ordering the municipality to clean up the contamination.

     I want to ask the Minister of Environment:  What is this family supposed to do?  Will his department take responsibility for cleaning up the PCBs and protecting this family?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, the approach of the department has always been to make sure that the responsible parties look after the cleanup, and we have been working with the community, the municipality and with Manitoba Hydro.  We have obtained a considerable amount of storage for some of the contaminated soil, and I believe that we will get that problem corrected.

Ms. Cerilli:  Can the minister clarify, what were the specific reasons for retracting this work order?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, speaking to the specifics of that order, I will have to get further information from the department.

     

Prime Oil Company

Environmental Work Order Extension

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  For my final supplementary, I would like to ask the minister similarly how the Prime Oil company in St. Boniface has been stalling for two years on its work order.  Can the minister give some commitment that there will not be an extension for this work order?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  The Prime Oil facility has been putting a number of proposals before the Department of Environment.  Obviously, the reason they received an order recently is because we are starting to run out of patience.  There is a meeting coming up very shortly and I will not preclude what discussions will flow from that meeting.

     

Home Care Program

Reductions

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health continues to tell this House that there are no cutbacks to the Home Care Program.  However, workers and clients are telling us a much different story.  There are many examples.

     A man in Winnipegosis had his three hours a week cut completely.  Other people had their workload, their hours cut in half.  Home Care support workers and health care attendants have had much reduction.

     How can the Minister of Health say there are no reductions to the Home Care in light of these serious cutbacks in hours throughout the Parkland?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I would very much appreciate receiving some further detail of these issues from my honourable friend.  As I pointed out to I think the official Health critic for the official opposition, Tuesday of last week, I have to say that I erred in some of the information I provided to my honourable friend.  It is not just a $6‑million increase in spending on Home Care this year over last.  In fact, it is $8 million more spending.

     

Alternative Services

       

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  The minister asks for specific cases.  There are far too many cases.  He should check with his workers in the area.

     Will the Minister of Health tell this House, if there are no cutbacks to Home Care, why the public health nurses and Home Care co‑ordinators are providing clients with lists of people whom they can hire after their Home Care hours have been cut?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  You know, I would be very much pleased if my honourable friend would provide a little bit of detail.  She might even consider contacting my office and providing me‑‑if she does not want to, or have the authority to share individual names.  I can understand that in Question Period.

     In the past, my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) used to send names of people into my office with concerns about Home Care.  In investigating those individuals' circumstances, we found out that the individual had no idea the New Democrats were going to be bringing their name to any particular complaint, because they had none.

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     I am not saying that is the case today, because I am not dealing with the Leader of the New Democratic Party, I am dealing with the member for Swan River.  Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend the member for Swan River that the support services for seniors in Swan River, in Dauphin and in many communities has been put in place to provide services to seniors to aid in their independent living.  We put in support from this government to assure that is happening, and when those services are available in the community, naturally we wish to have it known to potential clients that those services are available.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to provide the names of many workers and clients who have had their workload reduced and their hours of service reduced.

     Can the minister tell us what provisions are being put in place to ensure that these people who are having their home care reduced or taken away from them, who are living alone and cannot afford to hire someone from the private sector, what assurances are put in place that these people are going to be looked after, and they are not going to be at risk?

Mr. Orchard:  The same kinds of assurances that have existed in the policy of the Home Care program since its inception circa 1973.  An assessment is made by professionals who are employed by the Department of Health in terms of determining the needs of the individual to remain living independently.  Those services are provided by the department.  It may be nursing services, or it may be a range of services.  They are provided, will continue to be provided and are being provided all across the province, including in my honourable friend's constituency.

     

Urban Hospital Council Report

Tabling Request

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  My question is for the Minister of Health.

     The Urban Hospital Council has for months been conducting a far‑reaching study of possible health care reforms.  Some of the proposals on the table are deeply controversial, and some are quite dangerous.  The proposals have been in the form of public debate for some months now, yet the Minister of Health has refused many times to support his own views and positions on that table.

     Can he table the final seven reports of the Urban Hospital Council so that at least we and the public can make a judgment?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  When I receive the final recommendations from the Urban Hospital Council, as I have consistently said to my honourable friend, I will make those available.

     My honourable friend wants to know what the policy is that I have as Minister of Health.  That policy is one of involving as much consultation, as much input by the experts in the health care system, the professionals who administer, manage and deliver services in our health care system in being partners and having the opportunity for input of their knowledge and expertise in changing the way we approach health care delivery in the province of Manitoba.

     Mr. Speaker, as my honourable friend has agreed with the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, that circumstance is indeed unique in this province compared to all other provinces. Ontario right now is trying to set up something akin to our Urban Hospital Council, because even the government of Ontario sees the value in having your very best managers come around complex and difficult issues for resolution in health care delivery.

     

Health Care System Reform

Services to U.S. Residents

     

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell this House what this government's policy is on one of the very dangerous recommendations by the Urban Hospital Council, which is chaired by his deputy minister, as regards to Manitobans selling their tax paid health care system to Americans for fee services so that our patients will not be getting services?  It is a very dangerous proposal and must be rejected.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, if he was listening to Mr. Jack Litvack, who is chairing that particular issue study group, will know that the Urban Hospital Council itself has not received any recommendations from the study group which is investigating that issue.  Lest my honourable friend sort of fall off his normal, reasonable approach to being critic of Health and join the official opposition Health critic in sort of wild and woolly rhetoric, let me reiterate for my honourable friend what I have said all along, that no Manitoban will be compromised by any sale of health care if recommended by the Urban Hospital Council. That is the assurance the Urban Hospital Council is operating under and that is the assurance that I am giving my honourable friend, because I would not accept any recommendation which would do otherwise.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell this House whether his refusal today to say yes or no to this very dangerous proposal is not in agreement with his Premier (Mr. Filmon) who said, on November 19 on CJOB radio, no to selling health care to Americans?  Can he tell whether he is in charge of this proposal or his Premier?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I suppose I could rhetorically ask the question of my honourable friend, did he develop the policy articulated by his Leader in Minnedosa where they were going to kick 40 percent of the people out of the personal care homes or was that his Leader off on her own?

     Mr. Speaker, this government, when it accepts a policy in health care and enunciates it, it is a policy of the government of Manitoba and the cabinet of this province.  It will be stated as such, defended as such, and it will be a policy for the betterment of health care in Manitoba.

     

Selkirk Mental Health Centre

Forensic Unit

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, last year when I asked the Minister of Health what his government's long‑term plans were for the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, he indicated that:  the discussions are proceeding, I think, reasonably well with the federal government and do involve the Selkirk Mental Health Centre as a potential site for high‑security forensic beds.  Mr. Speaker, I have received correspondence that clearly indicates that the project is now in jeopardy, that the federal government is reducing their involvement in the planning process and they are not proceeding with a cost‑shared facility.

     Will the Minister of Health now come clean to this House and to the people of Selkirk about the status of this promised forensic facility?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has at least a partial knowledge of the issue. Indeed, this is a project which the province of Manitoba is not embarking on alone.  It is a proposition wherein the federal government must be there as part of the process, because my honourable friend might full well appreciate that the issue of Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council warrants and those individuals who have committed crimes and have to be placed in a security mental institution because mental illness was the defence in the court system, that is mandated as a result of federal law.

     That is why I say, the federal government must be partner of any solution.  As I stand today, I do not have a commitment from the federal government.  I did not have that six months ago when my honourable friend was informed that was the direction we were taking.  We are still pursuing that with the federal government. I cannot answer to my honourable friend today whether I will be successful in persuading the federal government to commit resources to an obligation they have in partnership with the Province of Manitoba, but I certainly intend to carry on those discussions with the federal government.

Mr. Dewar:  Mr. Speaker, since it is clear from the correspondence that the minister was aware that the federal government was pulling out of negotiations for the forensic unit at Selkirk, will he tell this House why he misrepresented the status of those negotiations when I raised this issue last December?

     

Point of Order

     

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to call the member to order in his question.  He makes the fact or he tries to make the point that, indeed, a member of this government has misrepresented other members of this House.  That is a very serious allegation and charge, and I would ask the member to either prove it or to withdraw it categorically and very quickly.  Indeed all members of this House are to treat the actions and the words of other members in a very courteous fashion.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable government House leader does not have a point of order.  The word quite clearly is ruled in Beauchesne as parliamentary.  The honourable member did not say deliberate.

* * *

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I simply want to say to my honourable friend the member for Selkirk that he ought to be a little more careful in his accusations in this House.  It does not do his constituents very proud when their member is not being exactly honest.  I would not say deliberately dishonest, because that would contravene the rules.  I simply want to tell my honourable friend that this government is pursuing the federal government for a commitment to high‑security forensic facilities in the province of Manitoba.

     I will repeat my answer for my honourable friend so he has it perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker, that we have not received a commitment from the federal government to participate, nor have we had the federal government say to us, no, we will not participate.

     I am not willing to give up, as my honourable friend would appear to be, in pursuing the federal government, because I think they will understand their obligation.  I believe we might have some success persuading them to be an investor in this program that is in part mandated because of federal statute.

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Mr. Dewar:  I would like to table a letter, Mr. Speaker, from M.J. Duggan which clearly states, and I quote‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Dewar:  Will the minister tell us why it took him over three months to respond to the federal government's letter, which indicates that they will not participate in the cost‑shared agreement?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot apologize for federal government tardiness in decision making, but we are going right to the federal minister, because this may ultimately end up being a federal cabinet decision.

     That is why I say to my honourable friend, I have not given up, as the New Democrats have, in achieving some participation by the federal government.  When I get a definitive answer, not from a bureaucrat but from the minister responsible, I will then come to this House and say, the federal government will not be a partner.  I am not able to say that, because I believe that the federal cabinet may wish to be partners in this arrangement.

     

Community Colleges

Student Appeal Process

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, due process is a cherished part of our freedoms, due process in our courts.  It would seem that it would be equally appropriate that there should be due process in our community colleges.

     Will the Minister of Education tell this House why students who appeal before the student and faculty appeal board are not allowed to be present when evidence presented against them is being given?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I take the question of the member very seriously.  I will look into the process at the community colleges, the process of appeal.  I will bring the information back to the House.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, I do recognize that this is a very new and inexperienced minister.  However, this case has been before her for 48 hours.

     I want to know why, when at the University of Manitoba‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, we are speaking about a young woman who has been denied access to the continuation of her academic program.  The minister has known about this for 48 hours.

     I want to know why this young woman cannot hear the tapes of evidence presented against her in her appeals process.

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, it is a very serious matter.  As I said to the member, I will look into it and I will look into the time frame also.  Anxieties of young people are of great concern to me also.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, at the University of Manitoba, students are not only allowed to attend the full appeal hearing, but they are allowed to have an advocate.  This is contrary to what is available at Red River Community College.

     Will I now get an agreement from the minister that she will insist that the community colleges bring their appeal processes into line with due process granted at our universities?

 Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, I will look into the process currently used at Red River Community College, and I will report back to the House on my findings.

     

Brandon General Hospital

Service Reduction

 

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).