LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
February 24, 1992
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
Mr. Clerk (William
Remnant): It is my duty to inform the House that Mr.
Speaker is unavoidably absent and therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I
would ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Daryl Reid
(Transcona): I beg to present the petition of Rey Manguba,
Ian McDougall, Brent Tierney, and others requesting the government show its
strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the
Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.
Madam Deputy Speaker
(Louise Dacquay): I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms
with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the
rules. Is it the will of the House to
have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all
good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and
It
is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most
vicious of crimes; and
Programs like the Fight Back Against Child
Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the
crime; and
The
decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper
the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
I
have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices
of the House and complies with the rules.
Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all
good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and
It
is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most
vicious of crimes; and
Programs like the Fight Back Against Child
Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the
crime; and
The
decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper
the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
I
have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices
of the House and complies with the rules.
Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all
good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and
It
is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most
vicious of crimes; and
Programs like the Fight Back Against Child
Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the
crime; and
The
decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper
the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
* (1335)
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Urban Affairs): I would like to table the 1991 Annual Report
of the North Portage Development Corporation.
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker,
I would like to table the Quarterly Financial Report, nine months ending July
31, 1991, of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.
INTRODUCTION
OF BILLS
Bill 55‑The
Workers Compensation Amendment Act (2)
Mr. Daryl Reid
(Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Thompson
(Mr. Ashton), that Bill 55, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act (2); Loi no
2 modifiant la Loi sur les accidents du travail, be introduced and that the
same be now received and read a first time.
Motion presented.
Mr. Reid: To give a brief insight on the purpose of the
bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is to afford protection for those who are
continually ongoing, day in and day out throughout the year, putting their
lives and the health and the financial security of their families at risk as
they fulfill the requirements of their job in the protection of society so that
we may afford them the same sense of security that the other members of our
society have as a result of their activities.
We bring this bill forward to provide that sense of security for those
who are involved in the firefighting activities and other areas of our
province, who provide that security for members of our communities.
Motion agreed to.
* (1340)
Bill 50‑The
Beverage Container Act
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): I move,
seconded by the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), that Bill 50, The Beverage
Container Act; Loi sur les contenants de boisson, be introduced and that the
same be now received and read a first time.
Motion presented.
Mrs. Carstairs: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is time for beverage
container legislation in this province to be effective. We have tried a voluntary system in the past,
but even the most optimistic of estimates would indicate that it manages to
recycle less than 50 percent, whereas container legislation similar to what we
are proposing in the
Motion agreed to.
Bill 51‑The
Health Services Insurance Amendment Act
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the
member for
Motion presented.
Mr. Cheema: Madam Deputy Speaker, Canadian health care is
under attack from all directions. This
bill will safeguard the most essential principle which has made it the envy of
many countries around the world. The
five basic principles of medicare are public administration, comprehensiveness,
universality, affordability and accessibility.
These are found in the Canada Health Act. It is time that we also entrenched them as an
administrative principle in
Motion agreed to.
Bill 48‑The
Personal Property Security Amendment Act
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by
the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 48, The Personal
Property Security Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les suretes relatives
aux biens personnels), be introduced and that the same be now received and read
a first time.
Motion agreed to.
Bill 53‑The
Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Amendment Act
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Madam Deputy
Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard),
that Bill 53, The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Amendment Act;
Loi modifiant la Loi sur la manutention et le transport des marchandises
dangereuses, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first
time.
His
Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this
bill, recommends it to the House. I am
pleased to table his message.
Motion agreed to.
Introduction
of Guests
Madam Deputy Speaker: Before we proceed, I would like to draw the
attention of all honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this
afternoon twenty‑five Grade 9 students from
On
behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.
Also, we have seated in the public gallery
twenty‑seven Grade 5 students from
On
behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.
* (1345)
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Economic
Recession
Social Programs
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, the recession has been
hard on Manitobans and Canadians. There
are 57,000 people unemployed now in this province, a 51 percent increase in
welfare recipients in the city of
During the Speech from the Throne, the
government stated that they are committed to maintaining and enhancing vital
social programs for Manitobans who are in need or at risk. Again the government's Speech from the Throne
promised that
My
question to the Premier is: Will he give
the people of
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly, I want to say
that we, I think, like all Canadians recognize with great regret the impact of
the international recession under which the entire world is reeling these
days. It is a recession that has gone on
longer than most economic forecasters predicted, and it is a recession that
none of us would choose to have facing our economy.
I
know that if the Leader of the Opposition is doing his reading, he is well
aware of how hard the recession is impacting other areas of the world, even
areas that have heretofore maintained strength over previous decades, places
like
In
our own country, under New Democratic administrations, we have in
They also, of course, limited their transfers
to schools, limited their transfers to education to 1 percent in
We,
Madam Deputy Speaker, have said throughout the past couple of years that we
have to be fair, we have to be reasonable, and we have to be balanced. The fact is that we have undertaken the
review of Estimates this year on that basis of fairness, of balance and of
reason as we look at all the services.
We
will do everything possible to protect services for the vulnerable in our
society.
* (1350)
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a supplementary
question to the Premier.
Does the decision of his government to close
down the Manitoba Tax Assistance Office for purposes of helping people prepare
their individual tax forms effective May 1, 1992‑‑the 15,000 people
at low incomes in
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy
Speaker, in keeping with the answer just provided by the First Minister (Mr.
Filmon), decisions with respect to providing service and the evaluation of
services, from time to time cause great difficulty, and indeed this is one of
the areas of decisions made by this government whereby it was a difficult
choice.
To
maintain the highest priority of this government, to maintain keeping hospital
beds open and maintain our health care commitment, certain decisions have to be
made. I want to indicate to the Leader
of the Opposition that we still prioritize those who have received free tax
preparation services by the government to the extent that those who are shut‑ins
will continue to have that service provided to them by government.
Furthermore, we were ensured by officials and those
people from the community that there is a growing number of firms, indeed,
Revenue
That is what the community tends to do during
difficult times. They tend to reach out
and help those who cannot help themselves.
That is what the community is indicating they are prepared to do for us
and relieve some of the debt burden of government, help us to maintain health
care services, and I would say, that is the better way.
Mr. Doer: Perhaps we could ask another question of the
Minister of Finance.
How
could he morally justify giving a $7‑million tax break to corporations in
his last year's budget and cutting back a very small amount of money that is
necessary in providing services to 15,000 of the lowest‑income
Manitobans? Is this the test of fairness
and equity that we see from Conservatives across the way in tough times, in
vulnerable times? Is this the kind of
standard of fairness we see across the way?
Mr. Manness: In case the Leader of the Opposition does not
recall, the benefactors of that reduction in taxes were those people who were
going to be trained and retrained, because of course there was an offset. The reduction provided was an offset against
the payroll tax instituted by these people across the way who have destroyed
jobs in this province for years.
It
all comes back in a tax way to the members across the way. They are the ones who have caused the wrack
and ruin in some respects, and they have the gall to stand up here and
challenge us for reducing taxes in support of training.
To
the member opposite, I say shame. It
comes back to you every time, does it not?
* (1355)
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Since this Tory majority government was
elected 18 months ago, they have cut student social allowances, ACCESS
programs, home care and increased Pharmacare deductibles. Now we find that the Manitoba Tax Assistance
Office will no longer prepare income tax returns for low‑income
Manitobans.
Has
the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) determined the impact this
closure of this program will have on Manitobans who live on less than $14,000 a
year, which is the ceiling for preparation from this program? Has he determined what that impact is?
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker,
let me indicate, I am led to believe, and I can stand corrected on this, but I
am led to believe that we are one of the few provinces, if not the only
province, in
Let
not members across the way try and portray the fact that this is a service that
is provided all across
Madam Deputy Speaker, we are knowledgeable of
the fact that many accounting firms in this province are providing their
services through the organization free‑‑I will say free‑‑through
Revenue
That is the community working. That is the community reaching out to the
less advantaged in our society.
Ms. Barrett: Madam Deputy Speaker, did the Minister of
Family Services consult with the Minister of Finance prior to the axing of this
program, which will save the province less than $50,000 a year while costing
the most vulnerable low‑income Manitobans upwards of a quarter of a
million to half a million to have H&R Block prepare those taxes for them?
Mr. Manness: If the government had sensed that there was
not a fall‑back free system being provided by the community, indeed this
decision may not have been made. If
indeed what the member says, and using her supposition that everybody would
have been forced to pay extremely large fees to an accounting firm, maybe we
would have looked at it differently, but after we were given the comfort that
there were free services being offered by the community, then the decision was
made.
The
member may try to portray it as just another $50,000, but it was that type of
attitude that has the general purpose debt of this province at $6 billion, courtesy
of the members opposite.
* (1400)
Ms. Barrett: Will the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness)
now guarantee those tens of thousands, 15,000 last year, low‑income
Manitobans, many of whom are senior citizens and have no access to those
volunteer groups that perform these functions, that those services which have
been provided by this government for 20 years will do what this government's
own program says and make sure that every Manitoban is entitled to all the
benefits‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Manness: I do not know what the member opposite has
against the community volunteering services to those in need. I do not know what about that model that the
member finds objectionable.
I
can say that Age and
Employment
Retraining Programs
Funding
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): My
question is to the Minister of Finance.
Public faith in the political system is not
enhanced when it appears that figures and dollars are manipulated by
politicians of all political stripes.
On
January 30, the federal government announced that
My
question is the following: Can the
minister explain why he could find $30 million in increased revenues on
February 17, when he could not find those same $30 million February 11, and why
he cannot invest in job retraining in the
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Let me correct the
record in one respect, because it was attributed to me that there was a
reduction in equalization. There was a
reduction from the $55 million in transfers that we were expecting, because
there was a revision again within the corporate income tax and within the
personal income tax area. As it was
reported that the so‑called additional good news, the $55 million, was
now going to be reduced by $30 million, that is true in numbers but that is not
true with respect to equalization. We
got it on equalization, but we lost it on income tax and also on corporate
income tax.
The
net result is as a result of numbers coming in in a significant fashion,
varying in large measure over the last month.
Today we have fewer dollars to spend at the end of this fiscal year than
we did exactly one month ago. Indeed,
ministers of this Treasury bench will tell you it has impacted upon them and
the decisions that they are making on a daily basis.
The
reality is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that today we do not have the degree of
windfall that we thought we did a month ago.
Provincial
Revenues
Additional
Revenue Sources
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam
Deputy Speaker, that begs the question, the minister said he was using all of
the $55 million, and then when he learns that he in fact is not going to have
all of that money, he made the statement:
Although the reduction in payments is not good news, a better
performance in other areas of provincial revenues will save the province from
increasing its deficit.
Where is he coming up with this additional
revenue?
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy
Speaker, I think it will be clear to the members opposite once I table the
Third Quarterly Report. I will be doing
that in advance of the budget. I expect
to maybe do that even this week, if not, at the beginning of the next, at which
time the forecasts of all the revenues and indeed the latest forecasts of
expenditures will be evident. In that
time, most of the questions that the member puts today will be answered.
Employment
Retraining Programs
Funding
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam
Deputy Speaker, will the Minister of Finance tell this House today why he
cannot find monies for retraining, monies which are so desperately needed in
the
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Well, Madam Deputy
Speaker, I had one source of revenue increase.
I had equalization within the three transfer areas of federal transfer
areas. That one area there was an
increase.
I
can say to the member opposite, I have also had reductions, and that will
become evident when I table the Third Report. Sales tax revenues have dropped,
consumption tax revenues have dropped, payroll tax revenues have dropped from
forecasting, so the reality is then, when you look at the government as a
whole, nearly $5 billion of revenue decisions are made, not on one line of
revenue, but the sum of all the lines of revenue.
Right today, the forecast of revenue for this
fiscal year is no higher than it was when I brought the budget down some
several months ago.
Home Care
Program
Nancy
Whiteway Case
Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis
(
I
would like to ask the Minister of Health if he has addressed the specific
request from Nancy Whiteway for a regular orderly in the evening to assist with
a bowel procedure and exercise requirements.
Has he moved to consider the general concerns of moving toward an
independent‑living‑based home care model so that people like
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, given that issue was in
today's news, I attempted prior to Question Period, knowing that my honourable
friend's research would be up to date, to try and determine how much we have
been able to accomplish since the writing of that article.
I
want to indicate to my honourable friend that we are providing a service. There was some difficulty in terms of
communication with the individual's physician in allowing us to proceed with a
resolution. We believe we have that
resolved and that we will be able to provide the kind of service that will
allow, as all of us wish to have happen, an independent living style for the
individual in question.
Madam Deputy Speaker, to answer the second
part of my honourable friend's question, we initiated some year and a half ago
plans for a project wherein those requiring home care services might in effect
undertake those with their own provision of service, budget provided by
government. That is the self‑managed
care project which we have underway now.
I
am not certain as I stand today whether the individual in question applied to
access the self‑managed care program that‑‑
Point of
Order
Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis:
Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not raise a single
question about the self‑managed home care program. That is a separate issue from the question of
an independent‑living‑based home care model.
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for
* * *
Mr. Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, then I guess I will
certainly look forward to my honourable friend's input in debate of the
Estimates, because I believe when she indicated something to the nature of self‑directed
home care, that is really what the self‑managed home care program is all
about, where the individual is empowered to provide and retain their own
service providers with dignity and with respect for their independent living
opportunities.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: If the minister checks Hansard, he will know
I was raising an independent‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a
supplementary question?
* (1410)
Advisory
Committee
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker,
again my honourable friend seems to not be consistent in her approach when she
one day criticizes government for having too many committees and now today says
we should activate and bring forward meetings with yet another committee.
I
presume my honourable friend is referring to the implementation committee, and
she will clarify this no doubt at her next answer, which was put together to
attempt to bring forward action on recommendations emanating from the Price
Waterhouse investigation of the Home Care Program, which was commissioned by my
honourable friend when she was part of government.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I hope the minister studies his own briefing
book which clearly‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable member for
Advocacy
Office
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): My honourable friend
might want to take this opportunity to table the page of my briefing book that
she has. I may be able to update her
with a new one, because I am not always certain that she is up to speed.
Let
me deal with some of the issues that my honourable friend has raised in terms
of the Price Waterhouse recommendation.
We have implemented a substantial number of those recommendations. That
has allowed us to make much better use of the ever growing Home Care budget
which, as I pointed out to my honourable friend the other day, will exceed some
$57 million this year.
Point of
Order
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker,
Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear.
Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the
matter raised and should not promote debate.
I believe the minister has been out of order all three counts for most
of this Question Period, and I would ask you to call him to order and to answer
the very specific question asked by the member for
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton) does not have a point of order, but I would caution all honourable
members to use brevity in phrasing their questions and respondents to also
exercise the same brevity in responding to the questions.
Mr. Orchard: I will apologize to all members of the New
Democratic Party if I have provoked debate by providing truth to the inaccurate
accusations of cutbacks.
Point of
Order
Mr. Ashton: We just had reference to Beauchesne's, Madam
Deputy Speaker, and now the minister seems to be not only debating the issue
but debating your ruling.
I
would like to ask you once again to bring the minister to order and have him
answer the questions that were put by our Health critic, the member for
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson does not
have a point of order.
* * *
Mr. Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe I had
answered my honourable friend's question.
Board of
Review
Chaulk
Hearing
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): My question is for the Minister of Justice
and Attorney General.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General signed the Order‑in‑Council
putting Robert Chaulk in custody. The
minister appointed the review panel that reviewed his case, and the minister
received notice of the Chaulk hearing and is a party to it.
Why
did the minister or his department fail to make representations on behalf of
the public at the Chaulk hearing?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, on January 29, I
wrote to the Board of Review asking for further information with respect to
their recommendation about the release of this individual into the community,
asking that another psychiatric opinion be sought.
On
February 5, the law of the land changed and the government of
Government
Representation
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, my supplementary to the
same minister is: What procedures is his
department putting in place to ensure that when Orders‑in‑Council
are in place when a review committee sits that the minister does make
representation at the review panel hearings that are held so an event of this
kind does not repeat itself?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The problem that we have, Madam Deputy
Speaker, which stems from the Supreme Court of
Pedlar
Commission
Recommendations
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, my final supplementary
to the minister is: Why did the minister
not follow the recommendations of his own Pedlar Commission at page 62 and
notify family members and other interested individuals of the fact of the
impending hearing and the possible release of Robert Chaulk?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The honourable member's question is a
good one. I will make sure that the
Board of Review is made aware of that question, because it is the Board of
Review, Madam Deputy Speaker, who releases these people. I would hope that the Board of Review would
also accept the Pedlar review recommendation, which is indeed a good one.
Clarification
Provincial Revenues
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker,
I would like to correct an impression that I left on the record with respect to
an answer provided to the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs).
I
would just like to say that I had made reference to the budget as being the
last accurate forecast of revenues for the province. I should have referred to the Second Quarterly
Report, which will be updated in the Third Quarterly Report sometime soon.
Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable minister for that
point of clarification.
Health
Care System
Licensed
Practical Nurses' Role
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): My question is for the Minister of Health.
I
would like to ask the minister about the effective use of human resources in
our health care system. Madam Deputy
Speaker, there are about 2,400 licensed practical nurses in this province, and
they see the future of their profession in grave danger. While the other
provinces are improving education and expanding the role of the nursing
profession, here in
Can
the minister tell us: What is the future
of many dedicated and experienced LPNs in this province?
* (1420)
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker,
my honourable friend is correct in that there is a moratorium at
Madam Deputy Speaker, I cannot give my
honourable friend a definitive answer today.
What I can tell my honourable friend is how we are addressing the issue
in terms of process. In January of this
year, given similar rumours that my honourable friend had indicated and rumours
around reorganization of staffing patterns which would see LPNs replaced with
registered nurses, baccalaureate nurses and nurses aides, I had my deputy
minister expedite an employer survey to indicate to the province what their
current staffing structures are as of today and to give us their best
projection on what those staffing patterns and needs should be five years out
so that we can begin almost immediately to tailor educational programs to
ensure the future of various trained disciplines in the nursing profession.
Mr. Cheema: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are talking about
2,400 very experienced health care professionals. Their future is in grave danger and we are
simply asking a question.
Will the minister tell this House where the
LPNs who are currently practising or who are about to complete their training
will get a job in
Mr. Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, of course I cannot, and
that is not unusual, because ministers of health do not hire anybody to work in
the health care field with the exception of staff directly employed by the
ministry of Health. The responsibility
of hiring and staffing patterns in our institutions, which is the question my
honourable friend is no doubt posing, is the responsibility of administrators
within the health care system. They have budgets under which they are required
to deliver care, and within those budgets they determine the staffing patterns
appropriate to assure that kind of patient care delivery.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I cannot tell my
honourable friend what the institutions will hire in terms of new graduates
from LPN no more than I can from RN or BN programs.
Mr. Cheema: Madam Deputy Speaker, can the minister at
least guarantee that all LPNs will be provided with the training and education
they need to practise the LPN profession in
It is a very simple question. The government set the policy. They are providing the funding.