LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, February 27, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

       

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  I must inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker and, in accordance with the Statutes, call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Madam Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay):  I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

      THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

      It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

      Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

      The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett)

      I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

      THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

      It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

      Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

      The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Reid)

      I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth

      THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

      It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

      Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and

      The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Chomiak)

* (1335)

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

       

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to table the '90‑91 Annual Report for the Department of Government Services.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to table the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Quarterly Report, Nine Months, April to December, 1991.

 

Introduction of Guests

       

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to inform the House, there are twenty‑four Grade 5 students from Linwood School, under the direction of Mr. Will Peters, in the gallery.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Repap Manitoba Inc.

Renegotiations

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  For the last two and a half years, Madam Deputy Speaker, we have been raising a number of concerns on the negotiated agreement between the government of the province of Manitoba and the Repap corporation.  We have been raising the inadequate job guarantees in that agreement.  We have been raising the aboriginal land claim issues in that agreement. We have been raising the issues of chlorine bleach for the expanded plan for the last two and a half years.  We have been raising the issues of the forest cut area that the government gave away in agreement with Repap.

      Members opposite and other members in this Chamber attacked us right through the election for the concerns that we had raised on behalf of Manitobans, yet today, the Minister of Finance states‑‑and the logic of the government falls like a house of cards when he states that we will negotiate some of the conditions of the agreement that were not in the best interests of Manitoba in the past, Madam Deputy Speaker.

      He has now agreed to negotiate specific parts of the project, unfortunately for all the wrong reasons, reasons due to the finances of the corporation in a letter that was given to the Minister of Finance and responded to by the government one day later.

      I would ask the minister responsible for this divestiture, what assurances can he give the people of Manitoba that we will not repeat the failures of the past with his negotiations in negotiations for the future?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, what is obvious firstly is that the official opposition maintains and continues their tirade against Repap.  They have been against Repap from Day One.  They never wanted an outside corporation to come to this province.  They wanted the government to continue to own Manfor.  They wanted a massive pollution to continue at that site and they had‑‑and then $30‑million annual losses.  That is what the members opposite wanted.

      When the company approached us to begin to consider sitting down and restructuring the agreement, given the incredible economic losses, financial losses within that industry, totalling $2 billion in the calendar year 1991, given significant large numbers of plant closures throughout the forest products industry across Canada, indeed, when they said that they were now wanting us to begin to restructure the agreement, to take into account that they no longer could meet their time frame‑‑indeed, they missed it by a significant amount‑‑at that point in time the government said we were prepared to engage ourselves into restructuring over the next six months given certain conditions.

      Those conditions have been laid out within the press release.  I dare say they have nothing to do with the fact that the NDP may have raised those issues.  Four years later, since we have done the deal, the world changes, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is right and proper to include those elements of which chlorine bleaching is certainly one significant aspect in the restructuring process.

 

Aboriginal Land Claims

       

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Madam Deputy Speaker, let not the record show for one moment the words the Minister of Finance put on the record.

      We have always been in favour of an agreement with the Repap corporation.  We have been opposed to the rotten deal the Minister of Finance negotiated with that agreement from Day One, along with thousands of Manitobans.

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Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable Leader to put a question.

Mr. Doer:  Madam Deputy Speaker, anybody who had any understanding of future jobs would have to predict future markets.  That did not include chlorine production.

      My question is to the Minister of Finance.  The relationship this government has with Canada's First Peoples and Manitoba's First Peoples is very poor.  During the Repap agreement negotiations, they did not involve in partnership the aboriginal communities in that area.  In fact, aboriginal communities had to mail in to the committee the material on the original agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Finance now acknowledges in his statement and the company acknowledges in his statement that aboriginal land claims is a major issue.

      I would ask the Minister of Finance:  How does he expect to have a partnership with the aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba when he has ignored their claims in court?  When he has ignored dealing with them in the past, how can we expect him to deal in partnership in the future with our aboriginal people?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, courts ultimately will decide whose claims are relevant or accurate or indeed justified.  Let not the Leader of the NDP rewrite history.  We provided an access to cutting rights, an area configured many years ago.  Indeed it was Manfor's; for the most part, it was Manfor's old cutting area‑‑[interjection] Yes, it was, and the area of which the member asks was always part of the Manfor cutting area.

      Let not him try to give the appearance that somebody's rights were trampled on because they were owned, indeed they were accessed by Manfor previously, and they were more or less provided in the same configuration as provided to Repap, so I would insist that the member acknowledge that fact.

 

Cutting Area

       

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not point out the difference between publicly owned corporations with publicly owned land and private corporations. The Minister of Finance would not understand that.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister of Finance.  He has not answered the question of partnership with aboriginal people, and judging from the AJI, I think we are in real difficulty with members opposite.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, we did ask the Minister of Finance in August of‑‑[interjection]

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable Leader of the Opposition to put his question now, please.

Mr. Doer:  Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

      On a number of occasions, we asked the Minister of Finance whether he would change the forest cut area to go into the Swan River area in the original negotiations.  The Minister of Finance, in August of 1988, said he would not.  He would use the original criteria for the forest cut area.  After 1989, we saw that the forest cut area was dramatically changed by the Minister of Finance in terms of moving south into the other areas of the province of Manitoba.

      Why did the Minister of Finance not include in his conditions of negotiations with Repap the whole area of the forest cut area, within the province of Manitoba, as one of the conditions that he would put on the table so that we can finally see some value‑added jobs in the Swan River area?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I am kind of perplexed at the question because indeed, if the member has seen the transfer of letters back and forth, he would know that indeed we have saved for ourselves the right to either include or exclude the southern cutting area.  I mean, that is one of the issues that will be brought to the restructuring process.  There always will be a balance.  If this is going to be a world‑size investment, obviously, it has to have economics associated with that.

      Members opposite will know that sometimes requires a larger area of which to draw fibre than otherwise might be the case. Our last deal, of course, involved the southern wood area of the Swan River, and it may or may not come to a point where that may have to be included again.  What we are saying is, we have a very open mind on it as we enter again the restructuring process.

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Repap Manitoba Inc.

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Madam Deputy Speaker, my questions are also directed to the Minister of Finance.

      Well, once more Repap has told this government to jump and they have made the big jump.  In view of the fact that the promised best efforts at jobs of the original deal which has fallen flat, what job guarantees will this minister be negotiating now, now that the deal has totally unravelled for citizens of The Pas and the surrounding area?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would remind the member opposite, this is what has happened in the last year within the forest products industry. Abitibi‑Price, Thunder Bay‑‑closed; Cascade, Jonquiere, Quebec‑‑closed; Cascade, Port‑Cartier, Quebec‑‑closed; Donohue, Matane, Quebec‑‑closed; Fraser Incorporated, Athoville, New Brunswick‑‑closed; Domtar, Red Rock, Ontario‑‑indefinite shutdown; Stone Consolidated, Bathurst, New Brunswick‑‑indefinite shutdown; Canadian Pacific Forest Products‑‑indefinite shutdown at Trois‑Rivieres, Quebec.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, the old Manfor plant, which represented such a tremendous economic benefit to The Pas and district and, indeed, to many of the members of The Pas Indian band and environs is open today.  The work force, although down somewhat, still is being productively utilized.  I can say to the member, this plant is still operating, and it is not costing the taxpayers of this province $30 million a year.  I would think the member would be thankful for that fact.

 

Employment Protection

       

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is again to the Minister of Finance.

      What contingency plan does this minister have to protect the jobs of The Pas and surrounding communities if the financial problems of Repap continue or worsen?

 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to speculate as to the future viability of Repap.  I say one thing, though.  I am thankful that it is Repap, because what you have in that organization, you have a forest product concern that has the most state‑of‑the‑art technology and plant in Canada.  They are also in value‑added product, paper, that the other pulp producers are not.  I am led to believe, as I talk to the investment houses, that indeed this company is very well poised for the next economic rebound, and indeed its debt problems should be behind it in pretty quick order once the economy recovers.

 

Budget Impact on The Pas, Manitoba

       

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Since northern Manitoba and The Pas in particular were major losers in the last provincial budget, will this minister guarantee today that he will take into account the situation facing the residents of The Pas in finalizing his budget over the next few years?  We just simply cannot afford any more cuts in jobs, education, training or in natural resources.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I kind of resent the question because I know we have made a commitment of $50 million plus.  I wonder whether or not, in concert, the member wrote that question from the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) when we put $50 million toward a refurbishment of the smelter at Flin Flon.  I wonder if his statement then is specifically directed for The Pas when he says northern Manitoba.

      I would say to the member opposite that the greatest protection his constituents have is obviously the continuing development with respect to the fibre source and indeed the forest products industry in and around The Pas.  I would think the member opposite would be encouraging us to restructure this deal in the best way to protect the interests of his constituents and indeed the economy of our province.  I would think that would be the No. 1 issue in the mind of the member for The Pas.

* (1350)

 

Repap Manitoba Inc.

Benefits to Manitoba

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to take this House back a couple of years when we heard the glowing forecast of what was going to happen as a result of the sale of Manfor to Repap.

      One of the issues that I raised over and over again was the issue of whether we were, at any point in time, going to receive any cash benefit.  The Minister of Finance said, and I quote: She was talking nonsense.  We are going to get $132 million over several years.  He said:  To say otherwise, is to say I am lying.

      Will the Minister of Finance tell the House today just how much of that $132 million the Treasury of Manitoba has received?

 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the great ironies of this continuing serial, I suppose one could use, is that it is because‑‑

An Honourable Member:  It is a nightmare.

Mr. Manness:  Well, the member says a nightmare.  I do not know how it is a nightmare when Manfor is employing people and production is being maintained.

      Specific to the question, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is because the original deal was so well structured, in my view, and because today, in my view, we could approach the courts if we wanted to and realize a significant portion of the sum of money of which the member uses.  Because the deal is so hard structured is the reason why Repap is asking us to restructure it.

      I would say to the member, if she wants us basically as a province to realize, on the incredible covenants that we have in the contract, to guarantee in large measure the amount of money she is talking about, then she has to tell us also how it is that we are going to maintain the operation at Manfor if Repap is then forced into insolvency because of that action.  That then rests on her shoulders, because that is what is at issue here.

 

Renegotiation

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  The answer is, we have not received one of those $132 million.

      Let me go on to quote again from this minister.  In a response to a statement that I had made that the sale agreement leaves many questions, the Minister of Finance said he could not understand his opponents' reactions, quote:  I can understand why Mrs. Carstairs is confused.  It is a complicated deal, and she has a limited understanding of how a divestiture is carried out, but there is no excuse for Mr. Storie.

      Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, sexism aside, can the Minister of Finance tell us how this wonderful divestiture needs to be renegotiated today in light of the disaster negotiation that he negotiated the first time, and will he back away from doing the renegotiations and resign?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I found out early on, when I came into public life, one should not take those types of statements so personally.  They come and go with the flow of debate‑‑[interjection] Yes, particularly when this new cabinet was being sworn in.  I can remember some of the complimentary remarks that were made at that time by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs).

      If the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) so wishes to delegate the responsibility to somebody else to restructure the deal, I will certainly abide by that request.  My feelings will not be hurt in the least.

      I say to the member opposite, when we structured the agreement, we realized at the time that expediency was necessary because pulp prices were at an all‑time high.  They were at $700 a tonne, reaching to $800, ultimately to $850 a tonne.  We realized that, as most commodity prices do cycle, it would only be a matter of time that those pulp prices would begin to drop, and we hoped that construction would be well along before that event occurred.  That did not happen.  The member knows why that did not happen.  She knows that there were environmental processes that took longer than expected but, nevertheless, were very necessary.

* (1355)

      She also knows that in some cases there were points brought forward by the members opposite that may or may not have helped the delay, contributed to the delay, but the net result was Repap got caught in the time when pulp prices dropped to $500 a tonne. If the members are saying that we should have known what the forest product industry was going to do as far as commitment towards bottom lines, I say to her, for that, I apologize.  We did not know that, but hindsight is perfect, is it not?

Mrs. Carstairs:  Foresight helps.  The minister tells us that he has some performance guarantees.  This company has defaulted on every single one of its performance guarantees in the contract signed by this minister in March of 1989.  They were to have commenced conversion of the unbleached pulp mill by December 31, 1989; they defaulted.  They were to have commenced the chipping facility at Swan River by December 31, 1989; they defaulted. They were to maintain employment levels; they have defaulted. They were to have put $5 million into training; they have defaulted.

      Exactly what performance guarantees is this minister going to renegotiate?

Mr. Manness:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish the member would be completely honest when she tries to lay out that chronology.

 

Point of Order

       

Mrs. Carstairs:  Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Finance has questioned my honesty in this House.  I would ask him to retract that statement immediately.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  On the point of order, I would recommend that all members of the House use discretion in the choice of their words.

* * *

Mr. Manness:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologize if the member is insulted.

      I will say, though, that what really happened, with respect to the delay, occurred not as a result of our environmental process, because Repap did have a Phase 1 licence to proceed, but they also had sought advice from Ottawa and were told by federal authorities that they may very well need a screening and indeed a panel to provide a federal licence with respect to Phase 1.

      If the member would only put that on the record also, then I think she would state her case somewhat more clearly.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, she can try to malign Repap, but this is what Repap has done in the last two or three years.  They put together the new, sound bulk fuel unloading and storage facilities constructed to replace facilities which led to mill site ground water contamination by Manfor.  They have a new domestic sewage system installed, a new sanitary landfill facility constructed costing $5 million.  They have also totally suspended solids from the pulps, and paper mills' effluent have been reduced by 46 percent from 1988 levels, reduced particulate emissions from the mills recovery boiler by 66 percent.

      They committed to reforestation of 100 percent of harvested areas, a greater commitment to reforestation than was required of Manfor at that time.  In '91 they planted 7.25 million trees.  In 1988 Manfor planted 2.9 million trees.  I could go on and on as to what Repap has done under the agreement and the commitment to the province.

* (1400)

      They have lived up to significant numbers of the covenants under the agreement.  For the member to try and malign that company, who has come forward and cleaned up such a dismal mess, I think is shameful, Madam Deputy Speaker.

 

Repap Manitoba Inc.

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  The Repap saga:  The Minister of Finance, two and a half years ago, walking out of committee meetings on the eve of the signing of the agreement;  the Liberal Party which opposed renegotiation of the agreement the last election; and now we see the Minister of Finance who‑‑[interjection] Well, we have the advertisements for the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs).  We have the ads.

      My question is to the Minister of Finance who still does not seem to understand.  He still seems to be the major cheerleader for Repap in this province.  Just this week, northern residents have received further notice in terms of employment.  Repap employees in Thompson‑Wabowden have been told that all conventional skidding operations will cease.  They will be laid off and be replaced by an in‑bush chipping operation which will require them to come up with a quarter of a million dollars to save their jobs.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Finance:  Is this his version of maintaining employment in northern Manitoba?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  The company last fiscal year lost $180 million.  I am not terribly familiar with the letter that has gone out and probably specific questions as to why or how come or why the letter should be directed towards the company, but I would have to think a $180‑million loss in fiscal 1991 probably is part of the rationale for the letter, at least the part referenced by the member opposite.

      As far as changing techniques of harvesting or indeed bringing forward wood supply, I would think, given that structural change is in our midst, is everywhere in the new globalized economy, I would have to think that no business in Manitoba is going to be spared having to undergo some types of changes.

      The commitment that this government will make in restructuring the six‑month window is to try to ensure that the same number of jobs will still be there as a result of Repap coming and doing what it can in support of the new facility, indeed of the major economic contribution that it plans to make to this province in the years to come.

Mr. Ashton:  How can this minister talk in his letter to the vice‑chairman of Repap Enterprises about maintaining employment‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  Is the honourable member for Thompson phrasing his question?

Mr. Ashton:  Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, I asked how can this minister‑‑perhaps if members opposite would listen‑‑talk about maintaining levels of employment in his letter to Repap when, at this very moment, employment is being cut back through mechanization, when employment is being cut back in Thompson‑Wabowden and in the Woodland area as well?  How can he talk about maintaining employment when it is being cut on a daily basis?

Mr. Manness:  This government is not going to force a company that is prepared to invest $1 billion plus to maintain the harvesting systems that have been in place for virtually decades.  Change is a fact of life.  Every one of us adopts it in our livelihoods, indeed our lifestyles, from day to day.

      What the member seems to be saying is, government, do not renegotiate or restructure this deal unless there is a commitment to every job as it exists today, not the total number but in the manner, in the condition and in the form in which it exists today.  I would say to him, that would put a yoke on Repap, indeed, that I do not think they could accept.

Mr. Ashton:  Madam Deputy Speaker, will the minister at least take the time to sit down with Repap, do something he has never done since this agreement was signed, and find exactly what their plans have been in terms of northern Manitoba, the plans which are cutting employment on a yearly basis in a way that has very little to do with the economics of the situation and shows absolutely the lack of guarantees in this agreement on behalf of this government?

Mr. Manness:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I guess that is what makes the philosophical difference between the member opposite and myself.  He wants to deal in politics, the heavy hand of government forcing, not numbers of jobs now, but the form of jobs, whereas we on our side say, leave that to the corporate decision of that company working toward hopefully a profit.

      I am saying, I said employment.  I said the same level of employment, and that is a condition in which we will try to work toward.  The member opposite is saying that they should not change the method in which they harvest fibre.  I am saying that is not a precondition.  The total number of work force is a condition that we will attempt to achieve if indeed we can restructure.  I remind you, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we cannot restructure this, we fall back to the old agreement.

 

Consumer Warning

Odometer Tampering

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.  Despite being repeatedly asked to investigate reports of odometer tampering on Monday and Tuesday, this minister refuses to do anything. Yesterday, she contradicted the RCMP and said there was no problem.

      My question is straightforward.  Who should Manitobans believe, the minister or the RCMP?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not believe I contradicted the RCMP.  I understand the member's interpretation.  The RCMP are taking the situation very seriously indeed in that they have discovered a case in which‑‑and perhaps more than one case‑‑they have had odometers rolled back.  From our department's experience, we have received no calls on the issue, so in that sense there is no widespread outcry from consumers to the government.  There is, however, a serious concern on the part of the RCMP, which we share.

      I indicated, when the member raised this issue several days ago, prior to the RCMP having the opportunity to release the facts to the public, that once the RCMP had made their public statement, I would be prepared to make comment.  Yesterday they released their statements, and I am today prepared to make comment.

      My department works, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, in close contact with the law enforcement agencies in a number of areas.  This morning my investigative unit of the Consumers' Bureau has been in touch with the RCMP Customs and Excise, the two officers in charge of this case, to offer our support should they feel that it would be helpful.  They have not requested this support at this time, but that contact has been made, our support offered, and we will be‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  I believe the answer to the first question has been put.

* (1410)

Mr. Maloway:  It was that attitude that cost the last consumer minister his seat at the cabinet table.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  Would the honourable member for Elmwood please put his supplementary question now.

Mr. Maloway:  Is this minister now prepared to issue a public warning and to work with the RCMP to protect consumers in this province?

Mrs. McIntosh:  Perhaps the member did not hear my answer when I said that my investigative officers have already contacted the RCMP to offer our support and that we will take our lead from the RCMP as to what is the appropriate form of support to offer so that we do not jeopardize but rather enhance the work that they are doing.

Mr. Maloway:  That was no answer to the question‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that supplementary questions should be very explicit and very direct, and there is to be no preamble.

Mr. Maloway:  Madam Deputy Speaker, we have consistently asked for a public warning.  Will the Minister of Consumer Affairs issue a public warning with a telephone number so that people who have used cars in this province can bring them forward to check for tampering of the odometers?  That is what we are asking.

Mrs. McIntosh:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I repeat, we have contacted the RCMP to offer that kind of support, and if, in the opinion of the RCMP, they feel that us issuing a statement would be of assistance to them, then of course, we are prepared to do it.  We will take our lead from the RCMP who are the ones who are handling this investigation.  My officials are in communication with the RCMP to seek direction from them on this issue.  They will indicate to us precisely what they need us to do if they wish us to do anything, and we will pleased to oblige in that regard.

 

Repap Manitoba Inc.

Expenditures

     

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  In response to my earlier question, the Minister of Finance indicated a number of expenditures that have been made by Repap in The Pas complex.

      Can the Minister of Finance tell the House today how much money above the $12.5 million left in the Treasury by Manfor has been expended by Repap in The Pas complex?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, to this point, we have paid billings, and I may have to correct this, it seems to me between $3 million and $4 million to Repap in support of asbestos clean‑up in the plant and also for some ground water remedial work.  I can indicate to the member, some of the estimates coming back in support of trying to clean up the bunker oil in the ground water supply, and this is the key point, could be well in excess of the cash amount kept by the province.  That was the degree of pollution that existed at that site.

Mrs. Carstairs:  I think the minister misunderstood.  I was not asking about the government's expenditures.  I was asking about the monies which were left in the Manfor account and transferred to Repap, which amounted to $12.5 million.

      Have the expenditures of the Repap corporation in The Pas forest complex exceeded, and by how much, the $12.5 million?  In other words, how much have they spent of their own money?

Mr. Manness:  Madam Deputy Speaker, the day that the deal was consummated, I received a cheque from Repap for $42 million, as I recall, and I wrote a cheque to them for $30 million.  The reason I remember that is I deposited it personally in a branch of the Royal Bank in The Pas.

      When the member wants to focus on this so‑called $10 million cash, we entered into an agreement.  We were paid that much and more for that cash.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I will ask the minister to reread his agreement about the $12.5 million left in the hands of Repap and Manfor.

 

Employment Creation Strategy

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  My final question to the minister is:  When he states he is going to maintain comparable levels of employment in this renegotiated settlement, is he committed to the 650 jobs, sometimes less, at Manfor at the present time or the 1,200 they promised us in 1989?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to negotiate on the floor of the Legislature.  I can say to the member opposite, certainly the goal and the objective is to try and drive the restructuring up to the 1,200 number that was contemplated within the first agreement.

 

Seafood Enterprises Associates

Agreement

 

Mr. Edward Connery (Portage la Prairie):  Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

      When the NDP were in power, they lent out money foolishly in the sense of job creation.  We saw what they did in the Jobs Fund, the hundreds of millions of dollars that were wasted and no long‑term jobs created.  In opposition, they are still encouraging this government to spend money foolishly, as he is wanting the government to entertain an agreement with SEA.

      Could the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism explain to this House why it would not have been in the best interests of the taxpayers and the money if we went into that agreement?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Deputy Speaker, I appreciate the question from the honourable member, primarily because I have a great deal of concern about the news release that was issued today by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie).  All it can tell me is that not ample enough research was done on his behalf in terms of reviewing this issue, and that is not doing justice to this Chamber or to the citizens of Manitoba.

      I will do something that we normally do not do.  We attempt to negotiate in good faith with companies.  We attempt to do it on the basis of confidentiality, but I feel because of the announcement that they put forth today, the members of the opposition, that I should at least give some of the parameters of the final request from this particular company that has been referred to, Seafood Enterprises Associates.

      The nature of the request, Madam Deputy Speaker, was for guarantees‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

       

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  Yes, on a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, the rules in Beauchesne are very clear in terms of answers to questions, that they should be brief.  If the minister wishes to get into the detail of this matter, he should more appropriately use the opportunity of ministerial statements to bring that forward to the Legislature. Otherwise, I would suggest you call him to order and ask him to remain brief in his answers as is required by our rules.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  On the point of order, I would just once again caution all honourable members, in issuing questions, demanding responses and issuing responses, to keep them as brief as possible.

* * *

Mr. Stefanson:  Madam Deputy Speaker, the question was about the details of these negotiations, and that is exactly what I am outlining, related to two areas in terms of a request from our provincial government for guarantees as they relate to operating capital, guarantees as they relate to investments by the individuals and the companies associated.

      The annual guarantees would be in the vicinity of $20 million.  Over 10 years, accumulated guarantees of $155 million for the creation in year 1 of approximately 100 jobs and by the end of year 4, potentially increasing to 186 jobs.  I should point out that part of our normal practices are to take back security.  The original book value of the fixed assets would be a maximum of approximately $14 million.

      In closing, we are working hand in glove with Western Diversification.  We have replied to the company, we have put forth a reasonable offer, and we will continue to work with the company.  I look forward to a supplementary question.

(1420)

Madam Deputy Speaker:  The time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Madam Deputy Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Madam Deputy Speaker:  The honourable member for Kildonan has requested leave to make a nonpolitical statement.  Does the honourable member for Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave has been granted.

Mr. Chomiak:  Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the House.  I had the honour yesterday of attending the second annual "Yes, I Can Awards" sponsored by the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Children.  The awards were presented to exceptional children and youth in the categories of Academics, Arts, Athletics, Community Services, Employment, Extracurricular Activities and Independent Living Skills.

      Winners of the awards included Michael Storozuk for Employment.  Michael is extremely proud of being able to hold a job.  Paul Gosselin for Academics; Paul is happy to participate in classroom discussions and finish his work.  Trevor Snippe for Academics; Trevor enjoys using the computer to work independently in his classroom.  Monique Couture for Academics; Monique excels in her academic learning and consistently gets good grades. Myron Barten for Extracurricular; Myron is very proud when he learns something new; Adam Wakeman for Academics.  Adam is self motivated to succeed.

      John Rokosh for Independent Living Skills; John has taken the initiative and learned many independent living skills.  Shirley Kanak for Academics; Shirley perseveres and gets good grades. Michelle Baker for Independent Living Skills; Michelle is pleased that she is able to get around independently.  Janet Murdoch for Independent Living Skills; Janet is thrilled that she is able to communicate and actively participate in school.  Emery Davis for Academics; Emery is a dedicated student who earns good grades and is looking forward to post‑secondary studies.

      Jeffery Parkes for Athletics; Jeffery's outstanding performance in sports is commendable.  Rebecca Brownlee for Athletics; Becky enjoys golfing with family and friends.  Kristi Brownlee for Athletics; Kristi's determination has enabled her to golf competitively.  Ashlee Beyak for Independent Living Skills; Ashlee's communication using sign language has enabled her to participate in all aspects of school life.  Chris Nicolas for Academics; Chris takes pride in his achievements in public speaking.  Danny Regnier for Independent Living Skills; Danny is enjoying his newly found independence in the community and at school.

      Peter Lebetzis for Employment; Peter is proud of the responsibility he has while working in the community.  Charlene Graff for Employment;  Charlene likes the friendships she has made while working and volunteering in the community.  Connie LaBossiere for Arts; Connie has been recognized for her abilities in poetry writing.  Patricia Duffy for Employment; Patricia was a valued member of the W.O.W. Summer Program.  Kiley Robin for Independent Living Skills; Kiley is very proud of his accomplishments especially in his drivers licence.  Gimmi Vaccaro for Employment; Gimmi is proud to be an independent, contributing member of the work force.  Hazel‑Lynn Carganilla for Academics; Hazel works diligently and has accepted more responsibility for her learning.

      I also would like to recognize the fact that outstanding achievement awards were presented to persons or a group of persons in contribution for CEC by the CEC and these included Marion Robisong from Brandon School Division for Program Development, KinKids Summer Program at The Pas for Program Development and St. Vital Summer Supported Employment Program of the St. Vital School Division.

      I am sure all members of the House will join me in congratulating these outstanding individuals, their teachers, schools, school divisions and all involved with Exceptional Children, Madam Deputy Speaker.

      Thank you very much.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Does the honourable member for Transcona have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave?

Some Honourable Members:  Leave.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Leave has been granted.

Mr. Reid:  Madam Deputy Speaker, last evening the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Children held their "Yes, I Can" Awards night in conjunction with the 26th annual conference.  The MCEC "Yes