LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, March 3, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tanya Funk, Gerry V. Martin, Athilee Dube and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Karen Kulik, Natalie Monkman, Servillena Beltran and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Steven Hay, Randy Maxwell, George Williams and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

       

Bill 18‑The Franchises Act

 

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that Bill 18, The Franchises Act; Loi sur les concessions, be introduced and the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Maloway:  Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have lost large amounts of money buying franchises in various companies over the last few years, everything from $5,000 for alarm franchises to $8,000 for computer franchises up to $100,000 for travel franchises.

      This bill will do several things.  One, it will require the franchise companies to file a prospectus with the province.  It will require that monies paid up front by franchise buyers will be kept in trust until all the promises of the franchise company are made good on, such as advertising and other things.  It will provide that franchises would have a protected area, a consistent contract, because that is a major problem in the business.  With the consistent contract, there would be consistent requirements for cash investments, guarantees in terms of their equipment, fixtures, royalties, fees and other conditions.  It is hoped that this bill will address a growing problem in Manitoba.

Motion agreed to.

 

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Riverside School, thirty Grades 7, 8 and 9 students.  They are under the direction of Mr. Tom Wiebe.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Ducks Unlimited Headquarters

Impact Tourism

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, recently I was listening to a Manitoban who was stating that he and his family, when they were down at the Minnesota State Fair, received a number of pamphlets and material opposing the Ducks Unlimited complex in Oak Hammock Marsh.

      It appears to me that, when one starts to look at the list of organizations across Canada and the organizations internationally now that are opposed to this project, which is supported by the provincial Conservatives, incredible organizations like the Sierra Club of Canada, the Sierra Club of the United States, National Audubon Society, we are now seeing a situation where there is an international outcry on this project, which I think will have damaging effects on the Manitoba economy.  Mr. Speaker, tourism is one of the largest industries in any province, and it is one of the growing industries of any province.

      I would ask the Acting Premier:  What impact will this growing negative international fight against the Ducks Unlimited complex have?  What impact will it have on the thousands of people who rely on tourism in Manitoba, because we are on the wrong side of an international issue?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier):  Mr. Speaker, actually I think the Leader of the Opposition has overlooked the fact that this facility will very likely become a tourist attraction.

      Certainly he is overlooking the fact that this marsh has been expanded, that the facility being built there is to provide education, education being one of the key reasons that we can bring people from other areas, people from within the province to look first‑hand at the opportunities to, close‑up, see the action that is being taken in that marsh and gain an appreciation for the real attributes that we have in that marsh.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, it sounds like the same kind of answers we had on chlorine bleach a couple of months ago from members opposite, total inability to predict the future and therefore to predict the future markets.  That is what we see from members opposite in terms of dealing with issues in front of them.

 

Funding Withdrawal

       

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  My question is to the Acting Premier.  Given the fact that organizations right across Canada, including organizations in provinces adjacent to Manitoba, organizations in states adjacent to Manitoba, international organizations in markets where tourists will come to Manitoba are now opposing this issue in a very, very public way‑‑if one looks at the wire service information, there are international stories against this project every day‑‑I would ask the Minister of Environment, will he now oppose this project in his cabinet and withdraw the money, because it will not only have a negative impact on our environment, it will also have a much greater impact on our tourism, because it will hurt our reputation, Manitoba in North America?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier):  Mr. Speaker, again the Leader of the Opposition is wrong.  He is trying to spread fear and innuendo regarding this project in the jewel of the marshes of this country.  It is pretty obvious to me that he has no appreciation for the fact that people want to be able to have access to view the activities that are going on there.  He is overlooking the fact that some 80,000 people per annum visit that marsh today.  He is overlooking the fact that this will become a major attraction, a major educational centre.  I think that the type of comments that are coming from the Leader of the Opposition are the very type of comments that drive people away from this province.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the members opposite told us we were fearmongering when we said that we should not proceed with chlorine bleach.  Let the records show who was right and who was wrong on predicting the future in this province.  It is not the members opposite.  If you look at the list, The Manitoba Naturalists Society, the conservation federation of Canada, Conservation Canada, The Sierra Club, on and on, prestigious independent international organizations are opposing this project.

 

Federal Environmental Assessment

       

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  A further question to the minister, the Acting Premier.

      We have seen the recent decision on the Oldman River giving greater requirements for projects to proceed through federal environmental impact studies prior to receiving any funds from the federal government or impacting on any federal jurisdictions.

      I would ask the minister, will this project now require, under the Oldman River decision, a federal environmental impact study?  If so, will they halt the money while that impact study is proceeding, and furthermore, will he consider halting the total project, given the environmental opposition on this project across North America?

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Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier):  Mr. Speaker, as is his wont, the member will look at the Oldman River ruling from an angle and a perspective that he chooses to view it from.  The fact is that the requirements are that the federal government make a decision.  The fact is that the number of issues that the federal government have been required to be involved in previously may no longer have the same trigger point that they had before.  In relation to this particular project, I think it is rather unlikely, but we will wait to see what the proceedings raise.

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Conawapa Dam Project

Public Utilities Board Referral

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  I have a report commissioned by Hydro on the long‑range, demand‑side management plans which demonstrate its ability to conserve more than twice as much power as originally thought before the PUB hearings.  The demand‑side projections help explain why the need for Conawapa in the projections was off by some 12 years and why the government must re‑examine the plans for Conawapa, as it has with Repap.

      I would ask the Minister of Environment, has he received and reviewed this report which would recommend from an environmental point of view that they would update Hydro's conservation plans and refer the Conawapa project back to the PUB?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Well, Mr. Speaker, the member totally overlooks the range of figures that were provided in front of the Public Utilities Board.  As the ultimate regulator responsible for licensing, I suggest it would be inappropriate for me to comment much beyond that.

Ms. Cerilli:  Can the Minister of Environment explain why this report, which was tabled on November 2, 1991, was not part of the PUB hearings and why this demand‑side management study was not done before those hearings, which would have been the environmentally responsible thing to do?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, the corporation is constantly upgrading its demand, its load and dealing with the conservation side of its responsibilities.  As I have said earlier, I will take the details of the question as notice for the minister responsible.

 

Conawapa Dam Project

Public Utilities Board Referral

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  In keeping with the government's constant queries for suggestions, I would like to ask the minister if he will recommend, based on this report that the demand‑side management projections give, to develop an incentive program for the senior officials with Hydro so that we can see the implementation of some of the demand‑side management programs which will fulfill these projections.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the members opposite will have an opportunity, once The Loan Act is tabled in this House, to ask certain questions with respect to the conservation programs associated with Manitoba Hydro and indeed their programming over the next year.  There is a component, significant component, I might add, that will be directed toward incentives and rebates, and indeed to the development of the plan.

      As a matter of fact, today in Treasury board, I had an opportunity to see the global funding that is going to be directed toward conservation efforts.  It is significant, and I can assure the member that she will be happy with that information once it is tabled.

 

Constitutional Issues

Bilateral Negotiations‑Quebec

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the Constitution.

      Yesterday, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indicated that Manitoba must attend the multilateral meetings because, he said, too much had been offered to Quebec, and Manitoba must protect its interest.  Well, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party of Manitoba is opposed to this approach because, in our opinion, there is a serious downside.

      Will the minister tell this House if this government is in favour of bilateral negotiations between Quebec and the Government of Canada, in that bilateral negotiations of this nature with the absent player is the parallel to multilateral negotiations with the remaining nine?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the honourable member will recall the responses made by the Premier to her questions yesterday in regard to this.  She will recall the Premier indeed made the point that Manitoba has a stake in all of this, and for that reason, it would be irresponsible for us not be present at meetings to discuss the future of our country.

      Among those, of course, is the position Manitoba takes with respect to Senate reform, and we would be concerned about an empty chair around the table, an empty chair where Manitoba ought to be sitting.

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Mrs. Carstairs:  I can only assume, therefore, that this government is quite happy with a bilateral negotiation between Quebec and the Government of Canada, and I want to know if this government actually trusts the Prime Minister to negotiate with Quebec on our behalf without us being present at the table.

Mr. McCrae:  Of course, it would be our wish that Quebec be a full participant in any discussions about the future of our country, because we believe Quebec has an important place in the future of our country, Mr. Speaker.

      I do not take the honourable member's preamble as she would put it, in the sense that I believe firmly that Manitoba as a full player in this Confederation needs to be present at meetings at which important matters are discussed.

 

Aboriginal Representation

       

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  I think the principle is that we should all be treated equally, and we are not if we enter into bilateral negotiations between the Government of Canada and Quebec or multilateral negotiations where Quebec is not present.

      Mr. Speaker, yesterday the aboriginal community indicated their pleasure and their delight at the recognition of the inherent right to self‑government in the Dobbie‑Beaudoin report. They also raised a very serious concern, and that concern is that there is now going to be discussions about the devolution of powers, that powers will be moving from the provinces to the federal government and from the federal government to the provinces.

      Will the constitutional minister tell me if Manitoba will take the lead and insist that the aboriginal leadership be invited to the multilateral discussions, so that there will be no discussion of the devolution of power without their representation?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs):  I think that Manitoba has some concerns in these areas as a province that, in population terms, is a smaller province. There are concerns in the Dobbie‑Beaudoin proposals for provinces like Manitoba, and that is a good reason for Manitoba also to participate in any future discussions.

      Of course, with respect to aboriginal issues, aboriginal issues affecting aboriginal people in this country, it is going to be important to receive the input of aboriginal leadership and ordinary, if I can use that word, aboriginal people across this country.

 

Policing Services

Municipal Costs

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural Development.

      The most important issue facing towns and municipalities as they prepare their budget for the upcoming year is policing costs.  A committee of urban and rural councillors has been struck to discuss this issue, and they have completed their report in which they made five recommendations of how the issue should be addressed.  The minister has had this report since January but has not taken a position.

      Can the minister provide us with a copy of the report and tell us when he is going to take some action and make some decision on these recommendations?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development):  Mr. Speaker, I thank the critic for her question.  I would like to say that I received the Charlie Hill report about a week after I was appointed Minister of Rural Development.  At that point in time, the report came to me without the signatures of the participating MAUM or UMM officials, which raises some concerns about whether or not they had completely endorsed the report.  As a result, I thought it was only fair that municipalities throughout the province would have some idea as to what was contained in the report.

      We have now circulated an executive summary of the report to municipalities, and we have asked for their responses to the options and the recommendations that have been made by the committee that was put together to study policing costs in this province.  Once those recommendations or responses are in, Mr. Speaker, we will be in a position then to move forward in terms of implementing some of the report's recommendations.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, one of the difficulties people in rural municipalities and towns face is that this government changes their Minister of Rural Development every session and then‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

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Ms. Wowchuk:  I would like to ask the minister, if he is not going to take action on this report, will he meet with the committee and councillors and give them some assurance that he is not going to change his mind after they prepare their budgets, which they are doing right now?  They do not want to face the same thing they did‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Derkach:  Mr. Speaker, I have met with both executive groups, both UMM and MAUM.  We have discussed this issue, and I think the critic of Rural Development was at a meeting in Brandon when I addressed the issue of policing costs.  Certainly there is some concern even within UMM and MAUM about the approach that should be taken, and it is for that reason that we have decided to circulate an executive summary of the report to all municipalities so that all municipalities in Manitoba, both urban and rural, can indeed respond to the recommendations that have been made in the Charlie Hill report.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I was at that meeting, and the people were certainly disappointed.  If they cannot take steps on this report, how can this government proceed with a proposal to change policing boundaries?  They say they have to consult on one, but they have not consulted with municipalities on changing the boundaries.  Have you told municipalities what the impact is going to be?  Are they going to have‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Derkach:  Mr. Speaker, I think the member is just alluding to some of the difficulties that we face out in Manitoba with regard to policing costs.  Not only does the Charlie Hill report address that issue, but indeed the whole concept of police boundaries is an important one.  It is a matter that is being dealt with at the present time by not only my department but by the Department of Justice.  All municipalities are involved to ensure that there is a resolution that will satisfy most of the municipalities in this province.

 

Post-Secondary Education

Accessibility

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, the concrete results of this government's funding of post‑secondary education are that the doors are closing for young Manitobans.  In just one faculty at the University of Manitoba, there will be 20 percent fewer students next year, and over 140 classes are going to be cut.

      My question for the Minister of Education and Training is: What programs or plans does she have in place for those students across the province who will now be denied access to university?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, the issue of a university education for Manitobans is of great concern to this government.  I will remind the honourable member that we as a government have had to set priorities.  We have asked school divisions to set priorities.  Universities have also had to set priorities in line with what can be offered within the financial limits.

Ms. Friesen:  Mr. Speaker, what action has the minister taken to deal with the additional 20 percent increase in student fees anticipated at Manitoba universities, which represent yet another step in closing off the economic future for Manitoba families?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, as the member said in her statement, it is anticipated.  We do not yet know the results of the budgets, and we have not tabled our budget in this House at this time.

 

Community Colleges

Funding Restoration

       

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, will the minister make the commitment today that she refused to make last week, to restore the more than 10 percent that her government cut from community colleges last year and to reopen at least those opportunities for Manitoba students?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, as I said last week in response to the question, the range of training opportunities and educational opportunities for Manitobans are very important to this government, but we will have to wait until our budget is tabled in this House to make any commitments.

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Health Care System

Licensed Practical Nurses' Role

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

      Last week I asked the Minister of Health some questions regarding the future of LPNs in Manitoba.  Unfortunately, the minister gave no assurance, and the future of 3,800 LPNs is in real danger.

      Last week the minister indicated that the unemployment rate for the graduating class of LPNs at St. Boniface was 19 percent. Mr. Speaker, according to the association, there is an unemployment rate of only 1 percent for this particular class.

      Is the minister going to stand behind his information, or is he going to correct his record and tell the people of Manitoba that this profession is very important for the health care of Manitoba?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend raises a very important issue.  The information that I provided to the House last week, when this question on the future of LPNs came up, was information that I had about the employment status at graduation from the St. Boniface General Hospital School of Practical Nursing.  To the best of my knowledge, that information upon graduation date is correct. There was some concern raised by the impression that that might leave to potential enrolees in future courses of LPN nursing.

      Subsequent to that, I have been informed that the association has tracked some 19 of the 22 graduates from the March 1991 graduating class of Practical Nursing at St. Boniface.  All 19 of those are employed whether it be full time, part time or casual. The three that they cannot locate to complete the 22 graduates may well be out of province.  Both pieces of information appear to be correct.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell us why he stated that he had no knowledge of the recommendation of the board of the St. Boniface Hospital that they close the LPN program when, according to LPN Association, the deputy minister of the Department of Health was present at the meeting of the 27th of November '91?  At that time, the hospital director stated that he will be making their recommendation.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I have never said that I was unaware of that being an issue for discussion at St. Boniface, including at the board level.  I have never made that statement.  My honourable friend better be a little more accurate.  What I have said, though, and this is‑‑[interjection] I have never said to my honourable friend in answer to any question that I was not aware of the discussion being at St. Boniface.  As a matter of fact, yesterday, in answer to the question of the official opposition critic, I said, I know the issue has been discussed at St. Boniface, so do not try to confuse the issue.

      What has not been presented, Mr. Speaker, to myself and to my deputy minister is any request to close the school, and until they do, I cannot comment around whether they will in fact ask for that to happen or not.  Until I have that request from a hospital, I surely cannot be expected to react to a hypothetical question.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell this House when the decision regarding the moratorium on LPN training at Red River Community College will be made, in that the students of Grade 12 who are making a decision for this particular program should know right now and not at the end of May?

Mr. Orchard:  I would hope that kind of information can be made available and the moratorium issue at Red River College be resolved when government receives the response back from our managers of the health care system, both on the acute care side and the long‑term care side, to the survey that we initiated, wherein we are asking those employers of nurses in the institutions of Manitoba:  What is your current staffing mix of nurse's aides, LPNs, RPNs, RNs and BNs, and what do you project that nursing makeup of professional disciplines to be five years from now?

      The purpose, Mr. Speaker, is to exactly remove the uncertainty around moratoriums at Red River Community College, rumours around St. Boniface General Hospital, so we can provide an assured future in a nursing profession for those desirous of undertaking it.

 

Rent Regulations

Rollbacks

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Tenants in Winnipeg look to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to protect them from rent increases which cannot be justified.  Winnipeg landlords are being granted rent increases based on property tax assessments and subsequently having those assessments appealed successfully, and so their expenses go down.

      What is the minister responsible for the Rent Regulation Bureau doing to ensure that increases which cannot be justified are rolled back and the savings passed on to the tenants?

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Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the way in which the policy works is this:  The landlord gets an approval of, say, 5 percent because he has had a tax increase.  The tenant can appeal that.  The bureau can approve that.  If the tenant feels it is too high, the tenant can appeal.  If, during the course of that appeal, the landlord has his taxes reassessed and put down, then the department at that time has the right to move the rent increase back to the appropriate level.  Once the appeal is made, that is it.  However, it is picked up again in the next year when the rent application considers the fact that the previous year he got money back from taxes.

Mr. Martindale:  Will the minister direct her staff in the Rent Regulation Bureau to enforce the act when subsequent applications are made, instead of having the director say, we are thinking about it and worrying about it?  What direction will this minister give so this does not happen again?

Mrs. McIntosh:  Mr. Speaker, our policy is as I have outlined. If there was a refund or a change in the tax assessment as the result of appeal on tax reassessment, it is picked up the next year and the adjustment made the next year.

 

Education System

Special Needs Funding

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.  The problems with government chronic underfunding of education is not helped by the government's publication of inaccurate information.

      Can the minister clarify why the department and herself persist in stating that special needs has increased by 42 percent this year when this is impossible, since special needs funding totalled $51 million last year and the increase of 42 percent would equal $22 million, which is beyond what the government is giving to the total public education system of the province of Manitoba combined?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, there is most certainly an increase in the area of special education funding.  The figure of 42 percent is very important because it signals money that is available very specifically for the area of special education, and it signals this government's commitment to that special need.

Mr. Chomiak:  It is a pity the figure is wrong.  It is not 42 percent.

      I am asking the minister my supplementary.  When will this government live up to its promised commitment of funding 80 percent of the costs of special needs rather than the less than 50 percent that it is funding today?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, we are attempting to meet commitments to all Manitobans within the amount of money that Manitobans presently have and can afford to pay for education.

Mr. Chomiak:  My final supplementary to the minister is:  While she reviews these commitments, I wonder if the minister could undertake to inform me why she is going to 64 percent of the funding of private schools and special needs remains at 50 percent or less?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, the funding for independent schools has not yet been announced, but I would like to remind my honourable friend that any funding for independent schools is for operational only and does not include capital.

 

Taxicab Industry

Luxury Cab Proposal

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation.  The minister has met on many different occasions to listen to the taxi industry in regard to concerns about the expanding or the potential expansion of the taxi fleet.  We are very disappointed that the minister has turned a deaf ear.  In fact, he was not really listening.  The Taxi Board has made a decision to bring upon 40 new luxury cabs, not thinking in terms of what the consequences are going to be to those who currently have a taxi plate licence.  It has served a devastating blow‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Does the honourable member have a question?  Kindly put your question.

Mr. Lamoureux:  My question to the minister is:  Does this government endorse the decision made by the Taxi Board to increase the number of taxis on the road?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to the member that we have a Taxicab Board which has been appointed, and it is a quasi‑judicial board.  That Taxicab Board has the right to make all kinds of decisions.  They have gone through a very difficult two years of having hearings and trying to address some of the concerns within the taxicab industry.  They have made some decisions, and it is within their jurisdiction to make those decisions.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Why did the government not indicate that we should have upgraded, if they want luxury cabs, 40 of the current cabs to luxury?  Mr. Speaker, we do not deny that the public want‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Driedger:  I think many people will take exception to the statement that the Taxicab Board has shafted the industry.  Let me just indicate, Mr. Speaker, that I think it is approximately 40 years that we have had 400 licences within the province, and it has never changed.  In the hearings that the Taxicab Board undertook, they felt by the response that came in that there was a demand for a special upgraded cab within the industry within the city.

      When you consider the increase in population from the time that we had 400 licences there to the population that we have right now, the Taxicab Board felt, based on representation made to them, that there was a requirement for an elite cab.

      There were 32 elite cabs, and eight are for specially handicapped people.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary:  Why is this government undercutting the market price of a taxi licence by selling the permits for only $100 when the licence holders can sell their very same licences today for between $45,000 to $50,000, turning a quick profit over to whom?

Mr. Driedger:  I find it interesting that the member raises the questions here.  If he has had concern on the taxicab industry, he should have maybe appeared at the hearings and put his views forward at that time.  That is what the hearings were all about.

      Mr. Speaker, I made a mistake three years ago when I personally got involved with the taxicab industry.  It was not within my jurisdiction to do so, and that has been corrected. The Taxicab Board has their jurisdiction.  They have had their hearings, made their decisions, and I support that.

 

Health Care System

Licensed Practical Nurses' Role

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  I would like to further pursue these concerns that many Manitobans have with respect to the future of licensed practical nurses.  Many people are worried, patients are certainly concerned, and women who have practised in this field for over 20 years are now finding their careers coming to an end and are very worried.  We can argue about statistics, but I think, when you are dealing with the master of obfuscation, the Minister of Health, we will not get anywhere.

      I would like to ask‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Point of Order

       

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to ask the honourable member to withdraw that statement.  We are all honourable members; at least Beauchesne says we are, and we are to be treated in that fashion.  I think that that statement was most unkind to the Minister of Health, and I would ask that the member withdraw that.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that word.  It was just in my memory, so recently planted there by the Minister of Health yesterday.

Mr. Speaker:  I would like to thank the honourable member for St. Johns.

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Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Let me just ask a straightforward question. What is the policy of this government when it comes to the profession called licensed practical nurse?  Does this government support the notion of a mix of nursing professionals, including the RN, the LPN and the aide, or is this government moving in a direction that is counter to every other province in this country?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  No, Mr. Speaker, and yes.

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Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  I am beginning to regret withdrawing the word obfuscation‑‑[interjection]

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.  Considering that the decision, with respect to the school at St. Boniface General Hospital, is being made as a result of a budgetary squeeze being placed on the hospital by this government's budget‑reduction exercise, would this minister convey to the St. Boniface General Hospital that there is some flexibility in the $19‑million‑budget‑reduction exercise of this current year and the $20‑million‑budget‑reduction exercise of this coming fiscal year so that they can make decisions‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, on careful reflection to my previous answer, I may have had to reverse the order or else the questions.

      I want to tell my honourable friend that, when she is talking about flexibility around the budget, that is exactly the process that has been in place for some 15 years, including when my honourable friend sat around the cabinet table making hospital decisions.  That flexibility, Mr. Speaker, demands of the hospital administrators that they manage within their budgets, as allocated by government, and without deficits, as I explained to the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and I will explain for the critic for the New Democratic Party, because she was at the cabinet table when the Pawley administration made that decision.  I tell you, we agree with it.

      Now, Mr. Speaker, in terms of dealing with the issues of staffing complements and the mix of staffing on the various wards of hospitals throughout the province, we have said that that is a management decision that the administrators must make to assure quality patient care.  I would hope that within those management decisions, there should and ought to be room for all disciplines of trained nurses in the province of Manitoba, because I think then one can accomplish both the budgetary exercise as well as the patient care that all Manitobans want to see continue.

 

Bed Closures

       

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, is the action being considered at St. Boniface hospital to close the School of Practical Nursing and to lay off LPNs related at all to the difficult situation the hospital has been placed in by this government who has directed the St. Boniface hospital and the Health Sciences Centre to consider the impact of closing 250 beds?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, the hospitals are being asked to manage within budgets, budgets which have increased year over year, in last year's case, not by the $19 million that was requested in addition to the increased funding we provided.  What we are attempting to do with the Urban Hospital Council, with individual hospitals, is to develop care for the patient.  There are examples, as is tabled in the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation report, which clearly indicate that there is a more appropriate regime of care for the patient not dependent on institution, that it may well be in community. That is what my honourable friend has been urging me to do.

 

Northern Health Care

Transportation Fee

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, of all the unfair and insensitive actions this government has taken, one of the most insensitive has been the application of the $50 user fee for Northern Patient Transportation, particularly as it affects remote northern communities such as Ilford, Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei and Wabowden.

      Since those communities are now asking the government to have physician services provided since many individuals in those communities cannot afford the three‑days‑a‑week train service to travel to Thompson, stay overnight for a couple of days, be faced with hundreds of dollars of bills just to have access to a general practitioner, will the minister now withdraw the $50 user fee and provide fairness to all northerners?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I realize my honourable friend has raised this issue time and time again. Let me background the decision by government around the $50 consumer contribution toward transportation.  Everybody in Manitoba must pay for their costs of accessing health care services.  Whether it means you pay for your gasoline in your car and the time it takes you to get from Point A to Point B, everybody pays for their cost of accessing health care services, be it a doctor's visit, be it an ambulance trip.  The exception was the Northern Patient Transportation warrant which picked up 100 percent of the cost for a select group of Manitobans in northern Manitoba.

      My honourable friend from his seat says not to pay accommodation.  Is he asking the taxpayers to do something he did not do and pick up accommodation?  Of course, he is not, because all Manitobans, if they have to stay overnight, must pay the accommodation themselves whether it is in Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin or wherever, no matter where they live.  What the policy did was provide equity across the province where there would be a contribution toward the cost of transporting oneself from their home to their access point for health care services, a policy of equity across the province, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

       

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave?  It is agreed.

Ms. Barrett:  Mr. Speaker, today is the second day of the second annual National Social Work Week.  As a social worker myself, I am pleased to rise today to pay tribute to the thousands of men and women in Manitoba and across this country who have found themselves in a wide range of occupations and jobs under the general heading of social work.

      For over 100 years, these men and women have been providing assistance to individuals, families and communities in need.  The names and the job descriptions may have changed over time, but the basic value that everyone in our society has the right to the best life they can lead has framed social work as a practice, and I as a member of that profession take a great deal of honour and respect in that basic value.

      Today, social workers are found in virtually every town, region and city in our province working in a wide‑ranging number of organizations, providing services to Manitobans literally from cradle to grave, both in their work time and in their volunteer time after their working hours.

      I would like to put on the record just a few of the agencies and the organizations and the areas in which social workers provide service to our citizens of Manitoba.  In no particular order, social workers are found at the Psychological Services Centre; Child Guidance Clinic; the Child and Family Services agencies; and the Native‑mandated Child and Family Services agencies throughout the province; Family Services of Winnipeg Inc.; Service de conseiller in St. Boniface; the Women's Post Treatment Centre; Women in Second Stage Housing; the shelters throughout the province; crisis centres throughout the province such as the one found in Lundar, Eriksdale and Ashern; the Selkirk Mental Health Centre; the Brandon Mental Health Centre; the Manitoba Development Centre; the Eden Mental Health Centre; hospitals throughout the province; personal care homes; the Boys and Girls Club; Klinic; Evolve; the Community Education Development Agency better known as CEDA; Interagency Group; Marymound, both in Winnipeg and Thompson; the Knowles School; Macdonald Youth Services; Mount Carmel Clinic; Ten Ten Sinclair; the Canadian Mental Health Association; the Canadian National Institute for the Blind; the Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped Inc.; Elizabeth Fry Society of Manitoba; as well as social workers being found in research, in university settings as professors, as government consultants and might I add in the Legislature, not only myself as a social worker, but also we have an intern who is a social worker.

      Finally, I would like to congratulate again the thousands of social workers in Manitoba.  The work you do, while often not recognized or understood or appreciated, has brought satisfaction in accomplishment to generations of Manitoba.  Congratulations on this week.

      Thank you.

* (1420)

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave?  It is agreed.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the member for Wellington in recognizing the fact tha