LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
March 9, 1992
The House met at 8 p.m.
PROPOSED
RESOLUTIONS
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed resolution of the honourable Minister
of Justice and Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), standing in the name of the
honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, the honourable
Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I just had a few moments before
the break in the hours to make some initial comments, and now I would like to
speak on this resolution and I suppose the proposed amendment.
When
you look at the resolution and look at what it says, it says: "WHEREAS the government of
I
would hope that no members of the House would argue with that first WHEREAS and
indicate in fact that it is not something that every member of this House and
every member of this Legislature should support on behalf of all of the women
of
It
says also: "WHEREAS a public
awareness campaign was undertaken in February, 1990, to promote awareness that
partner abuse is a crime."
I
think I have heard comments from other members of the Legislature in this
debate today that have indicated that it was in fact a good public awareness
campaign. I cannot understand why anyone
in this Legislature would not support and endorse that concept and indicate
quite publicly that it was a good campaign.
The
third WHEREAS is: "WHEREAS the
Pedlar Commission recommended the community must take an active role in
reducing and eliminating domestic violence."
I
do not think anyone can argue with that either.
I think we all recognize and we all realize that not only does
government, but all members of society have to look very closely at what is happening
in the area of domestic violence, in the way it has become more open and more
public and more women are speaking out.
We all should work toward that same common goal of removing and
encouraging members of the community in a nonpartisan way, I must say, that
encouraging and saying to community members and to all members of
"THEREFORE
BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of
I
do not think that there is any member of this House that can argue with that or
indicate that that is not a very laudable goal on behalf of the women of
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I
want to say at the outset that I believe that this resolution was brought
forward in the context that all members, no matter what philosophically they
believe, have the same common goal of attempting to eradicate and eliminate
domestic violence in our society, and I hope that all members of this House
would condone that and would support that.
Mr.
Speaker, I think that the amendment that has been introduced is somehow doing a
disservice to the women of the
Nothing
has convinced me more that we as a province need to take this kind of a united
stand than the experience that I had several months ago when we went on a
northern cabinet tour and met with some of the more northern and remote
communities. The one community that left
a very lasting impression on me, which I shared with many of my colleagues, was
the meeting I had with some of the women from
It
really hit home to me when they said that the women and the children in their
communities were being both physically and sexually abused on a very regular
basis.
Mr.
Speaker, I listened to those women. I
had difficulty comprehending the kind of life that they must live in that kind of
a situation as they expressed to me the real concern that they had. I was determined at that point that I would
come back and attempt to make a difference in some way in dealing with the concerns
that they had raised. As a result of
that meeting, we had some of the northern aboriginal women come in and meet
with our caucus and explain to us what was happening to them in their lives as
they reached out for some help and support.
Mr.
Speaker, I want to indicate that we answered their request by providing funding
from this government for the healing circle that was held for northern
aboriginal women in The Pas. I had the
opportunity to attend part of that two‑day conference and listened to
native women express the hurt and the feelings of helplessness that they felt
in trying to come to grips with keeping the family unit together and dealing
with their lives and trying to make a positive difference. I came away from that even more determined to
work with women in our aboriginal communities to help them to overcome some of
the problems that presently exist.
Mr.
Speaker, the policy that we have announced today is a policy that I think will
lead toward support, at least a show of support, for those aboriginal women
that so desperately need that right at this point in time in their lives. When we went over the policy with the women
before we were about to announce it publicly, I raised the concern about
announcing it a little too early and not having any concrete programs in place
to address the issues or the policy statements.
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When
I raised that issue with the women, the aboriginal women, they indicated to me
that in this very troubled time in their lives when they were dealing with the
strength of aboriginal women coming out and speaking out about what was going on
in their communities, they wanted this government to show moral support for
their cause and for those women. They
wanted a policy and a statement of policy and goals that at this point in time
did not have to have that action, but would show support for those women who
were taking very brave steps and speaking out very vocally after years and
years and years of keeping the silence.
Mr.
Speaker, I really believe that today was a victory for aboriginal women in
Mr.
Speaker, I am extremely troubled that we have members of both opposition
parties who are not today standing up for those women who so desperately need
the support of our legislators. It does
not matter what political party they belong to, but they need the support of
all elected members in this House to show that we have care and we have concern
for their plight and for attempting to resolve the issues that affect them
most.
I
am somewhat appalled to hear the negative comments made from both opposition
parties and the lack of support for those most vulnerable in our society who
need our moral support. They need us all
to stand up and say enough is enough. We
will not tolerate abuse, domestic violence, anymore, and we are all as legislators
behind you as aboriginal women 100 percent.
I
would like to hear those kinds of comments from all members of the House, and I
would like to know that all members are, indeed, supportive and will get behind
those women and encourage them to work in their culturally appropriate,
traditional ways to end the abuse and to try to counsel within their
communities for a better life in the future.
Mr.
Speaker, I know that the issue of domestic violence does reach across all
segments of our society. I had to leave
the House for a short period of time this afternoon to go over to a reception. The Immigrant Women's Association of Manitoba
was kicking off a week of celebration for immigrant women in the province.
I
talked briefly about the introduction of the aboriginal women's policy, and I
talked about the women who had been a part of this province for longer than any
of us, through all of the waves of immigration.
I talked about the need for all women, from all cultural backgrounds and
from all walks of life, to work together to attempt to make a difference. United there is strength among women, but
when we divide into little groups that tend to have very local concerns, then
we fail as women to address the needs.
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I
indicated too that women cannot work in isolation of the men within our
community. In order to effect change
there have to be both men and women working together to ensure that programs that
are put into place, that communities that are attempting to deal with the
situation are dealing as united communities. Everyone, whether it be men or
women, does have to stand up and say enough is enough. We will no longer tolerate domestic violence
or child abuse, and we all have to work together in co‑operation toward
that end.
I
listened to the members of the opposition when they were critical of government
for not doing anything in the area of domestic violence. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think
anyone across the way would expect me to agree, but I do believe that we have
effected some change. When we took over
as government some four years ago, we undertook the Women's Initiative whereby
Gerrie Hammond, a member of the Legislature at the time, went out through the
As
a result of that initiative, this government has increased the number of wife
abuse shelters in the province from a meagre three under the New Democratic
Party when they were in power to some 12 wife abuse shelters today. I am not even going to begin to say that is
enough because I know that there is still more to be done in that area. I know that opposition members were critical
of implementation of the Pedlar report.
I want to indicate that we had enough foresight to hire Dorothy Pedlar
to look at and to review the justice system as it related to women. We have, as
a result, begun to implement some of the recommendations and others will take a
little longer.
I
do know, with the budget on Wednesday, that some of the opposition members will
have to eat some of their words on criticisms that they have put forward today
about this government and its lack of initiatives, because we will see and
Manitobans will see that there will be money put in some of the appropriate places
to implement some of those recommendations.
Let the opposition not sit back and say that absolutely nothing has been
done.
I
do want to comment, too, on the Leader of the Liberal Party's (Mrs. Carstairs)
response to the ministerial statement that was made earlier today. Without thinking or without consulting with
one aboriginal woman that I know of in the
I
have to give the New Democratic Party a little more credit than that, because
they indicated they would wait with anticipation for announcements of
initiatives and programming. I know that
the women of
Mr.
Speaker, when we look at the amount of money that has gone into dealing with
women's issues and violence in the
To
that end, I am going to be meeting with the federal minister responsible for
the Status of Women and asking for her co‑operation to ensure that women
at the grassroots level receive some of the federal funding that rightly
belongs to aboriginal people for some of the issues and the concerns that they
must deal with on a day‑to‑day basis.
I
know that my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), will be
meeting with and will be talking to his counterpart at the federal level to
ensure that, in fact, we have the support of the federal government to deal
with those women in those communities who need support in such a major way.
Mr.
Speaker, I want to thank the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for her comments
on this government's hiring of Marlene Bertrand, the former director of Osborne
House, who has been recently hired into the position of director of Family
Dispute Services.
An Honourable Member: You mean
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Mrs. Mitchelson: Did I say Wolseley? I am sorry, the member for
I
want also to say that it was under this government that the first funding to an
umbrella organization for aboriginal women was provided, and the Indigenous
Women's Collective, which received no funding under a New Democratic
administration, now receives core funding to carry on its activities.
We
as a government have funded the first aboriginal crisis shelter for women. We have crisis lines that provide services in
English, in French and in aboriginal languages for those women who need that
kind of service. We have provided money
to northern and urban resource centres that deal with aboriginal women and aboriginal
women's issues. We have included many aboriginal
women also on boards and commissions and working groups that will deal with the
issues that have been presented from the Pedlar report, from the Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry, and now addressing the needs that have been presented today
through the aboriginal women's policy.
Mr.
Speaker, we have done positive things.
We will continue, as resources permit, to expand and to enhance programs
for women, for domestic violence, and specifically for our aboriginal women, as
time goes by and as women identify the needs and the programs that need to be
put in place to assist them.
I
am going to finish my comments now by saying that, indeed, violence against
women and children is intolerable, it is unacceptable, and I would have liked
to have seen both opposition parties stand in their place and say, yes, we
agree, we support, and we all need to work together. Not only those within this Legislature but
those outside of the Legislature need to work together to ensure that women in
this province are treated in a decent way when it comes to violence and abuse.
I
do want to repeat again, Mr. Speaker, that I am disappointed that, in a
nonpartisan way, both opposition parties could not stand up and say for the
benefit of the women of
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, I want to start off my remarks
this evening by saying that I am pleased to rise in this Chamber to speak on
this resolution on an issue that everyone in this Legislature agrees with,
namely that domestic violence cannot be tolerated in this province any longer.
Before
I would do that, however, I would also like to say to you and to this Assembly
here that I feel good about myself this evening in spite of what people may
think of me or say about me. I have a clear conscience. I sleep well at nights, and I can also get up
in the morning and look at myself in the mirror and feel okay with the person
staring back at me.
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I
would also like to point out that I do not have or do not purport to have a
monopoly or hold the key to human decency or compassion as has been suggested
at this Assembly this afternoon by some members.
Mr.
Speaker, I believe that everyone, every person, has some human decency in her
or in him. Whether they be poor or well off,
whether they be weak or strong, whether they be aboriginal or nonaboriginal,
whether they be men or women, I believe that every person, every human being,
has some decency, some positive characteristics and, yes, at the same time,
because we are all humans, I also believe that all of us contain flaws in our characteristics
and in our persons.
I
want to say, however, that although I consider myself, not all the time, but
for the most part, to be a balanced individual, I try not to react to things
such as I saw and heard happening and being expressed here this afternoon. At times like that, Mr. Speaker, I feel a
little bit disillusioned. I know that I
have been here in this Chamber now for a little over a year and when I see
things like that happening and exchanges like that taking place in this
Chamber, sometimes I wonder what I am doing in this Chamber and I have to go
back and reassess whether I can contribute something that is positive to this
Chamber.
This
afternoon, like every human being subject to human failures, I reacted within
myself. Afterwards I told myself, no, you
are not going to do that; you are going to be positive. That is what I am trying to do this evening,
Mr. Speaker, but after having said that, I also want to be truthful. I want to be honest and not everybody will
necessarily agree with everything that I have to say here this evening, but
that is okay. If you or other members of
this Chamber cannot find it in their way to agree with some of the things that
I say here, that is fine, just leave it here.
I would also hope that whatever I say to this Chamber, if somebody else
can use it, please take it with you.
I
want to speak to the resolution now, and I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that first
of all as I read the resolution, and again I want to be truthful and I want to
be bluntly honest, and while being bluntly honest some people might not like
it. That is okay too. The resolution as I read it does not say
anything about aboriginal people and yet I sat here for the most part this afternoon
listening to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) going on a tirade against
aboriginal people. I do not think that
was the honest way to go about the debate that we had this afternoon.
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I
also note that from reading the resolution, the resolution is devoid of any
mention of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. Again, I want to say to you, Mr.
Speaker, that this afternoon the Minister of Justice spent a great deal of his
time attacking aboriginal people, particularly those chiefs including myself as
a former chief of my band. When I was
chief of my band I tried to the best of my ability to work for the people of my
band. I tried to the best of my ability
to represent the interests of my people.
I know that members on the government side, including ministers, will
agree with me that I work very hard in trying to represent the interests of my
people.
When
I was chief of my band, Mr. Speaker, I know that ministers on the government
side will also attest to the fact that I was always willing to negotiate. I tried not to be unreasonable. Indeed, some of the ministers, now that I am
in this Chamber, always like to refer to those days when they and I and my
council were negotiating. We got a lot
of things done during those negotiations that we carried out with whoever was
in government, whether they be New Democratic governments or Progressive
Conservative governments. The bottom
line that I want to emphasize here is that I tried to the best of my ability to
represent the interests of my people.
The
minister also, and ministers, this afternoon challenged me: Where do you stand on violence against
aboriginal women, although this resolution makes no mention of aboriginal
people? Mr. Speaker, I know where I stand.
As I told you earlier, I have a clear conscience. I can live with myself.
All
I want to say for the moment is, I want to remind all members of this House, or
maybe ask them the question: Who was instrumental
when he was chief of his band in pushing for an inquiry, a full public judicial
inquiry into the death of Helen Betty Osborne?
Who sat through the trial that took place in The Pas, as difficult as it
was? Who sat through 16 of 18 days of hearings
that were held in The Pas, as difficult as that was? As a chief, as I said, I tried to be
reasonable in my dealings with nonaboriginal people. In the same way, when the hearings were being
held in The Pas, it was hard for everybody, not only for aboriginal people, but
it was just as hard for the nonaboriginal community. Whenever I was being interviewed by the
press, I made it my business to try to be fair in my remarks on the hearings and
on the trial.
Mr.
Speaker, the minister asked the question today:
What will a separate aboriginal justice system‑‑what would
it have done if it were dealing with the Osborne case, for example? All I can say is, it was not my system which
let three of four men walk away scot‑free after committing such a heinous
crime. It was not my system.
The
commitment of Manitobans to ensuring that
Accordingly,
the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) told me not too long ago when I was asking
questions in the House that I would be pleasantly surprised once I got to know
or read about what was going to be in the response paper that his government was
about to deliver.
Well,
I was not pleasantly surprised today either to hear the words of the
minister. I was disappointed, I was sad,
and then I became bitter and, like I said, I had to go back and collect myself
again and put myself together. In fact
it made me wonder whether the minister or any of his colleagues have actually
read through the entire Volume I of the AJI report.
Truly,
it is unfortunate that this government failed to set up a nonpartisan
legislative committee along with aboriginal leaders to implement the
recommendations of the AJI report last August, as we consistently recommended.
Mr.
Speaker, you know, all‑party task forces have worked for this province
twice before, and I am referring to the constitutional task forces. I was part of the last task force. The Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry was just as important to the people of this province as were
those two constitutional task forces which were set up by governments of this
province.
The
AJI report begins with a statement that the justice system has failed
Aboriginal
people who are arrested are more likely than nonaboriginal people to be denied
bail, spend more time in pretrial detention and spend less time with their
lawyers, counsel and, if convicted, aboriginal people are more likely to be
incarcerated.
It
is not merely that the justice system has failed aboriginal people; justice has
been denied to them. For more than a
century, the rights of aboriginal people have been ignored and eroded. The result of this denial has been injustice
of the most profound kind. Poverty and
powerlessness have been the Canadian legacy to a people who once governed their
own affairs in full self‑sufficiency.
The report goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, that the problems are daunting
and the commissioners' proposals are far reaching. They go on to say‑‑but we believe
that in the interest of justice the process must begin immediately.
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The
context of the resolution appearing before us tonight, Mr. Speaker, has much to
offer to us as legislators in terms of action that the government should take
to reduce domestic violence in this province.
The AJI report details the victimization of aboriginal women and men
that occurred with the introduction of the now notorious residential schools.
Generations
of aboriginal people were denied a proper relationship with their parents
because of these schools. Not only did
residential schools not support the development of traditional parenting roles
among the children but they also taught the children that they were pagan, that
they were inferior and should never use their language or follow or honour
their religious beliefs and traditions and their way of life.
As
a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, these schools actually taught violence. They did, because I remember when we would speak
our own language in the school yard at recess time or even in the washroom,
priests would be hiding in‑‑standing on top of the toilet bowls in
the boys washrooms. They would actually be
waiting there, waiting for us to come in.
As soon as one of us started speaking our mother tongue, the priest
would jump out and grab whoever first he could grab, drag him to the
principal's office and then proceed to beat him up with a strap.
To
me, Mr. Speaker, I am not a social worker, but I know where dysfunctional
families come from. I know where co‑dependancy
comes from. Besides severing the family
life, besides severing the community life, Mr. Speaker, it was not our system
who taught violence early in the school in the lives of children.
These
messages were imparted to aboriginal children in a sometimes brutal way, as I
just tried to describe to you. The schools
not only removed children from their families, but they also prevented any
closeness, even contact, from occurring between siblings and relatives, even
though they were at the same school. In
addition to the physical and sexual abuse that Canadians are now hearing took
place in residential schools, emotional abuse was the most prevalent and the
most severe.
We
should never minimize the damage that these schools inflicted on generations of
aboriginal children. Most grandparents
and many parents today are products of that twisted school system, and that is
where the dysfunctionality originates from, and that is what we are trying to
deal with today. That is why I support
the resolution, even though it does not contain any mention of aboriginal
people or any mention of implementing at least part of the AJI report. I just want to say that.
The
segregation of aboriginal women, both from a wider society, and from their
traditional role as equals and strong members of tribal society, continues to
the present day. This is due partly to
the fact that the effects of the past discrimination have resulted in the poor
socioeconomic situation applicable to most aboriginal women, but it is also
attributable to the demeaning image of aboriginal women that has developed over
the years.
North
American society has adopted a destructive and a stereotypical view of
aboriginal women. The demeaning image of
aboriginal women has been, and continues to be, rampant in North American
culture today. These images have been
more than symbolic. They have helped to
create much of the problems we are discussing today in terms of domestic
violence. Racist and sexist stereotypes
have not only hurt aboriginal women and their sense of self‑esteem, but
actually encouraged abuse, both by aboriginal men and by others.
Many
have written that Helen Betty Osborne was beaten and brutally murdered. It was the dehumanization that is prevalent in
society. Such grotesque dehumanization
has rendered all aboriginal women, and young women, vulnerable to gross physical,
psychological and sexual abuse from not only aboriginal men, but from others as
well.
Domestic
violence is not limited to any one segment of society. It is a problem throughout this country in
both the richest areas and also in the poorest areas. I will now point out some of the very
recommendations from the report, detailing the situation facing aboriginal
women. The report notes, as we were told
numerous times, women who wish to escape an abusive home must leave the reserve
community and go to the town or city. We
consider this tragic and unacceptable.
In situations where it is unsafe to leave the victim in the home, there
should be shelters and safe houses in aboriginal communities to which the
victim can go.
So
they recommend that shelter and safe homes for abused women and children be
established in aboriginal communities and in urban centres. That is why I say, when I speak on the resolution,
that it has no mention of aboriginal people and it does not mention the
recommendation that the AJI so very comprehensively set out for us back in
August.
Counselling
and support for the victims of abuse are essential. Another recommendation: "Community mediation programs such as
the one operated by Hollow Water Resource Group be expanded to Aboriginal
communities throughout the province. Such programs must be designed and
operated by Aboriginal people."
It
is in this context, Mr. Speaker, that the St. Theresa Youth Justice Committee
seems to be operating very well, and that this government found it difficult to
continue funding. It was only after some
lobbying by the group from
What
we want now are those resources that are essential to ensure that programs such
as safe homes, shelters are operated not only in aboriginal communities but
throughout the province as well.
Mr.
Speaker, the report goes on to recommend that "culturally appropriate
group homes be established in urban areas by Aboriginal women's organizations
where urban Aboriginal women can serve any term of incarceration to which they
may be sentenced, with access to programs of recovery from substance abuse, recovery
from victimization and dependency, academic upgrading training, and parenting
skills."
It
also recommends that "Aboriginal women living in isolated or rural
communities be held in open custody facilities in their home communities. Such women would be free to attend to their families,
to work or to obtain education during the day, and to attend counselling
sessions in the evenings and remain in the facility each night until their
sentence is served."
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Mr.
Speaker, there are many, many worthwhile recommendations contained in the AJI
report and I say to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), I challenge the
Minister of Justice, I challenge this government, that if indeed they are
serious in alleviating or working towards the alleviation of this terrible,
terrible problem that we have today, then I would suggest to the government
that they put resources, both human and financial, into the policy that they
announced this afternoon, because the policy as it now stands is not going to
work unless resources come with the policy.
Anybody can make a policy statement and have good intentions in
announcing such a policy. The real test comes
whether that policy can actually be implemented.
I
say to you with respect, Sir, that this policy does not have the resources and
so therefore will be rendered almost ineffective if it is allowed to be
implemented without any financial or human resources.
I
want to also say, Mr. Speaker, that, in closing, I want to come back and say to
the Minister of Justice‑‑the Minister of Justice can do anything or
say anything he wants. He can hurl any
kind of accusations or innuendoes toward me, if that is what makes him feel
good, or perhaps the better term is patriarchal.
The
only message I want to give to the Minister of Justice and to this government
this evening is that in spite of what he said about me, or in spite of what he
thinks of me as an aboriginal person, as a former chief, as an aboriginal man,
or as an aboriginal MLA, I repeat to you, Sir, I have a clear conscience, I can
sleep well at nights, and I am also able to get up in the morning, look at
myself in the mirror and still feel okay with myself.
Mr.
Speaker, I hope that I was being respectful this evening. I hope that my speech here tonight carried a
message. I hope that I contributed something positive to this debate.
Mr.
Speaker, I thank you and other members of this Legislature for listening to me.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
I,
too, like him, was very concerned with some of the remarks that were put on the
record from the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) and somewhat surprised in a sense
that the Attorney General went out in the fashion in which he did, to say
marked remarks or put remarks on the record that reflect negatively on so many
Manitobans.
I
am glad to see that the member from The Pas stood up and responded at least in
some part to those remarks and was able to refrain from attacking the Attorney
General's own credibility on the whole issue in sticking to the resolution at
hand.
Mr.
Speaker, listening also to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women
(Mrs. Mitchelson) and some of the comments that she had put onto the record, I
guess, at times, I wish I was able to restrain myself in the same fashion that
the member from The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) was able to.
I
am not too sure if I have that sort of a quality, in the sense that I take
exception to a number of the remarks that the Minister responsible for the
Status of Women had put on the record in regard to the Leader of the Liberal
Party (Mrs. Carstairs), and some of things that, in fact, she said.
(Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in
the Chair)
I
understand and I can appreciate that she is somewhat sensitive when she makes a
ministerial statement, that in fact because she makes a ministerial statement,
the critics get an opportunity to refute or to also make comments and those
comments were very legitimate. I would
encourage the minister to in fact read over what the Leader of the Liberal
Party did say, Madam Deputy Speaker. The
Minister responsible for the Status of Women has said that the Liberal Party
and the New Democratic Party do not in fact support the resolution. I think that the Minister responsible for the
Status of Women is getting a bit too carried away here.
I
cannot recall hearing any member of the New Democratic caucus or in fact from
the Liberal caucus criticizing the content of the resolution. In fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, we go through the
resolution‑‑and which I will go through the resolution‑‑but
we look at what the Leader of the Liberal Party did was move an amendment. I would argue that it is a legitimate
amendment, because time after time whatever the issue might be the government
takes an opportunity to say that we are doing this, we are doing that; this is
what we are thinking of doing, and so forth.
The
thing that is lacking is the resources, and I believe that the amendment to
this particular resolution is a very legitimate one. I can understand, I guess, to a certain
degree and will have to appreciate why the Conservatives en masse will likely
vote against the amendment, but because they vote against the amendment does
not necessarily mean that it is not what is actually occurring, because the
minister herself would have to admit that the new funding just is not there for
many of the things that were being suggested in the Pedlar report.
I
did want to go through the resolution, Madam Deputy Speaker, and starting off
with some of the WHEREASes. I really appreciate
the opportunity for us to be able to debate this whole issue during the
government business. This way we can
exceed the 15 minutes and it has allowed us to have a debate for more than just
one hour on this very important issue.
So
I wanted to, as I said, go through some of the WHEREASes, and starting off from
the top. The reason why I do this is because
the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) says that
the two opposition parties do not support the resolution, and I want them to
understand what it is that they are trying to say.
It
starts off with:
"WHEREAS
the government of
Madam
Deputy Speaker, I do not believe that there is anyone inside this Chamber who
would oppose that. We go on:
"WHEREAS
a public awareness campaign was undertaken in February, 1990, to promote
awareness that partner abuse is a crime."
Madam
Deputy Speaker, this is a well‑known fact. In fact, a year later, I believe it was in
October, I think it was October of '91, a year later or just over a year, we in
fact received the report. So it is one
of fact.
*
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In
terms of the third WHEREAS, the Pedlar Commission recommended the community
must take an active role in reducing and eliminating domestic violence, well,
again, this is something that I would be very disappointed if there was a
member inside this Chamber who stood up in fact and said that they do not support
that particular WHEREAS.
Then,
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Legislative Assembly
of Manitoba support the position adopted by the government of
Well,
Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the resolution that the Minister responsible for
the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson) says that the two opposition parties do
not support. In reference to the last
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, once again, I would argue that I do not believe that
there is one member from all sides of this Chamber who would stand up and
oppose that particular be it resolved.
So
I think that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women was completely
off base and was not being sensitive to the real, true feelings of members of
this Chamber, that in fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, she did a disservice by
saying that the resolution was not going to be supported by members of the opposition
party.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, even though the government might choose to not recognize that
there is something lacking from the government when it comes to domestic
violence, that being the resources, the new monies, to facilitate some of these
recommendations that are coming out of things such as the Pedlar report, they
might not at least openly admit to that and thereby vote against the amendment
but, surely to goodness, they must realize that there is no one inside this
Chamber who would oppose a resolution with content of this nature.
We
look at the actual amendment that was moved, where it is just an add‑on,
unlike the government, Madam Deputy Speaker, where the government on a private
member's resolution destroys the whole resolution right from the first WHEREAS,
whether it is a good resolution or it is a bad resolution from their perspective,
wherever we recognize and respect the WHEREASes and the THEREFORE BE IT
RESOLVED and chose not to delete, because we concurred with the WHEREASes. The Deputy Premier says, let us vote on it;
we will vote on it in good time. I can
assure the Deputy Premier of that.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, the amendment will no doubt come to a question some day, and
then after that we will go on to the resolution. Even though I would like to see the amendment
pass and only wish and desire I had the debating capabilities to convince a
number of the members from the government side to in fact support the
amendment, because it would not take too many members when you have such a slim
majority government, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it would send a very strong
message to the government of the day in terms of the real issues of domestic violence.
Yes,
it is nice to be able to talk about how government is acting, and they are
doing whatever they can, but unless you are able to come up with the resources
which are necessary to implement, not just some of the recommendations from the
Pedlar report, but a good majority. I
think there were 75 recommendations. I
personally have not read each and every recommendation, but am somewhat
familiar with a good number of them. The
ones that I am familiar with, I think the government should be acting upon.
I
understand, and I appreciate the fact that they have operated on a good number,
or that they are in the interim, or in a very short period of time, there will
be a large number of those recommendations which will have been acted
upon. I congratulate them for doing
that.
I
wanted to talk specifically about a case in terms of domestic violence, a case
that came to me and somewhat disturbed me.
That was a letter which was dropped off at my door here at the
Legislature, just slid underneath my door, and it was from a lady who was at
the other end. In her particular case,
the police were in fact called out to her place of residence.
Unfortunately‑‑and
it is a very serious matter, and I have to be somewhat careful in terms of the
way I put it‑‑from what I understand with the discussions that I
have had with both Osborne House, the City of
I
have gone over this particular constituent's file at length and tried to get an
understanding as to why something of that nature would have happened. At the very least, where there are allegations
coming from both sides, one would have anticipated that both would have been
taken into custody, but I was very surprised in the sense that it was just the
lady who was taken in, given the circumstances that I was told around it.
The
reason why I bring it up, Madam Deputy Speaker, is because part of the Pedlar
report recommended that there needs to be an educational component to combating
domestic violence. It made reference not
only to our children and the people who are being abused or the abusers; it
also made reference to our police forces.
I
think that it is a very legitimate recommendation from the Pedlar report, that,
in fact, if that recommendation was followed, I would like to think that this
particular constituent of mine would have been treated in a very different
fashion than she was. Hopefully, over
time, this particular constituent of mine will be able to live with what has
happened. She does feel very slighted,
and justifiably so. Hopefully, reports
such as this will go a long way to alleviate the concerns of this constituent
and, I believe, constituents of all of the MLAs.
I
wanted to go over a number of the recommendations that were brought forward in
a very point‑form fashion. Some of
them included an expansion of the family violence courts outside of
One
of the primary reasons why they would not have acted upon some of the
recommendations that I might be bringing up is because they did not allocate
any new resources to the recommendations that came out of the Pedlar report.
Another
one was in terms of mandatory education programs for offenders at the
corrections and the probation facilities.
Madam Deputy Speaker, this is one in which my constituent, whom I cited earlier,
would be able to give a large number of insights in terms of the treatment that
she had received. She would concur 100
percent with that particular recommendation.
*
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Education
and training on domestic violence for the entire justice system. Once again, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a recommendation
that points out that the question of education is very important at all levels,
even in our legal system and our justice system, that it touches all aspects of
society.
Police
investigation of all breaches of restraining orders‑‑we have heard
a lot about restraining orders and how restraining orders are in fact
violated. We have had women who have
been violently abused by individuals that should never even have been
there. I can appreciate and understand
how hard it is to ensure that someone that has a restraining order never be in the
presence of the person that they are supposed to be away from. There are other ways in which we can at least
ensure the best way that we can that people with restraining orders are not harassing
in any fashion the victim. It is things
such as stiffer fines, penalties, the whole question of coming down harder on
the abuser.
Laying
of charges and prosecuting all partner abuse where evidence exists‑‑it
is hard to be somewhat objective, given that we are not in the courts every day
to determine how the victims are in fact being treated and the comments that
the judges and lawyers and so forth are putting forward. The recommendation, I believe, has to be
based on a lot of serious discussions and debates with those in regard to the
laying of charges, those individuals that do the laying of the charges, and for
them to point it out as a problem. I
believe that the government has a responsibility to act on that particular
recommendation in the fastest way possible.
Prohibiting
the possession of firearms by offenders‑‑on many occasions members,
in particular the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), have brought up the issue
of firearms. There are definitely things
that the government can do, not only the provincial government, but also the
national government, to ensure that firearms are not being abused in
society. The government's role should
not be belittled whatsoever in this area, because it is something that we have
seen at different levels of violence, whether it is one or two individuals or
in fact the massacre that we all are aware of in terms of what took place in
Mandatory
education on the domestic violence in the public schools, this is something
that I think is probably one of the most important recommendations that came
out of the Pedlar report, and I wanted to quote from the Pedlar report on this particular
recommendation. It goes:
"It
is recommended that educational institutions in
Madam
Deputy Speaker, the government cannot act quick enough on this particular
recommendation. I often talk about the problems
of racism, and the best way you combat racism is through education, and we need
to start off with our young people.
Well, I would say the same thing regarding domestic violence, that if we
are sincere in combating domestic violence, and we want to achieve zero
tolerance, we have to start at the educational institutions.
We
cannot start early enough. We have an
obligation for our future generations to educate, and this is one of the recommendations
that we believe the current Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), the one who
spoke during the Matter of Urgent Public Importance, the one who introduced
this very same resolution that was to appear during private members' hour, in which
I had looked forward to her comments during private members' hour on her
resolution, because from what I understand, there is nothing that prevents a
minister from talking on a resolution.
I
would hope that the minister would, in fact, stand and put some of her concerns,
to talk about a resolution that obviously she feels very close to. If in fact, the minister‑‑
Point of
Order
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Madam Deputy
Speaker, I would like to, on a point of order, ask that you clarify for us
whether or not as a minister I can speak to that resolution, because it is my
understanding that I cannot. The member is indicating that I will not, and my
understanding is in the House I cannot.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for
* * *
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of
Education (Mrs. Vodrey) had introduced a resolution that is the exact same resolution
that I am debating right now, if that is not‑‑[interjection] Well, I do not want to reflect on the Chair, but I
would encourage the Minister of Education to confirm with the Clerk. I do not believe that there is a rule that
prevents her from speaking.
Point of
Order
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker,
one of our rules is that we should not anticipate any matter that has been set
aside for future debate. To this point we
have not dealt with Resolution 7, so in fact the member for
*
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Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for
Mr. Lamoureux: No, to continue my speech, Madam Deputy
Speaker. Am I recognized to speak now?
Madam Deputy Speaker: There was no point of order. The honourable member for
* * *
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would hope that the Minister
of Education will in fact speak on this particular resolution, and I look
forward to her debate hopefully. If the minister
would like to introduce a resolution, I would be most definitely interested in
hearing her comments on it. I somewhat digress.
I
want to get back in terms of some of the other recommendations‑‑increasing
the maximum allowable stay in shelters to 30 days from 10 days. In that particular recommendation, there are
a couple of things which come to mind. One is in the sense that if you put
yourself in the situation of a woman who has been put in a situation in that
they have been physically abused and then have to leave their home to go over
to Osborne House, there are a lot of things which are put to them right up
front, things such as: What is going to
happen to me tomorrow? What am I going
to be doing for housing after I have to leave Osborne House?
There
is the whole question in some cases on economics. Osborne House and shelters
like Osborne House do not have the opportunity to provide the most essential
and badly needed counselling services and are somewhat limited in terms of what
they can do because of the regulations of the maximum of 10 days. There is no interim housing or housing which
is available for individuals who cannot go back home that is made available.
I
recall a couple of years back where we had raised the issue inside the
Chamber. The government then responded
by saying that Winnipeg Regional and Winnipeg Housing Authority now has a priority
listing and anyone coming out of shelter abuses will be given priority, Madam
Deputy Speaker. I commend them on taking
that particular piece of action, but I think that they can extend the number of
allowable days for an abused individual to remain in the shelter.
Offenders
are required to make restitution or reparation to the victim; and finally, to
enhance educational programs offered to the abusers. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a
responsibility for us to provide not only counselling for the victims but also for
those who are the abusers, in hopes that they will not repeat what everyone in
this Chamber agrees is a crime. I think
that it is very important for all of us to be somewhat, at the very least,
aware of the recommendations not only that the government is acting upon, but
those recommendations that the government, for whatever reasons, is not acting
upon.
One
of the ministers who shoulders a major responsibility for these recommendations
is the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), because I believe one of the most
important recommendations is the one of education. That is why I am very interested, personally,
in hearing what the Minister of Education has to say about it and what her
government's agenda is on educating our younger people in the
As
the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) had pointed out, one would have thought
that he would have been more relevant to the resolution that was before him and
not choose to take the shots that he did take at the aboriginal community as a
whole and the leaders of the aboriginal community. He, while he was standing and I was sitting
in my chair, was trying to bait me in terms of saying that I am on the wrong
side on this issue. Madam Deputy Speaker,
I take issue with that because I do not believe that you are guilty until
proven guilty‑‑unlike the Attorney General of the
Madam
Deputy Speaker, I wanted to comment in terms of the impact of the vigils we see
here that come by far too often. It was
not that long ago‑‑I believe it was on Bill 5‑‑that we
had commented in terms of the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) and
the number of vigils that she attends.
Well,
Madam Deputy Speaker, I know I have had opportunity to attend a vigil, and I
would like to see the vigils come to an end in a positive sense, when we see
that there are no women that are being violently‑‑or their lives
being violently taken away from them.
Until that occurs, the vigils play a very major role in terms of what is
going on in everyday reality. We need
those reminders for ourselves so that the opposition in the government can look
over, review their actions, and hopefully, to ensure that the government and
particularly do what is ever within its means to prevent domestic violence.
I
think the objectives of the resolution are good, Madam Deputy Speaker, declaring
that
This
is not the first day of this session where we have debated domestic
violence. We had the domestic violence
debated in the form of a Matter of Urgent Public Importance, which received the
support of all three political parties inside the Chamber.
For
some reason, I do not think that this will be the last time that we will be
debating domestic violence, even though, if domestic violence were to approach
what this resolution is asking for it to do, then we might not, but somehow,
Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not see that occurring. Having said that, I support very much that
Mrs. Shirley Render (St.
Vital): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is usually customary
when an honourable member stands up in the Chamber to say it is a pleasure to
make some remarks on a topic. I have to say, it is not a pleasure for me to
have to be talking on the subject of domestic violence. It would be far nicer not to have this topic
happening in our society.
*
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I
was very fortunate when I was growing up that words such as "love",
"understanding" and "compassion" were the key words that marked
the way my family operated, the way my parents treated my three brothers and
sisters, the way my parents treated each other.
When I was at university, I took many, many courses in sociology and
psychology. This was in the early '60s. Interestingly
enough, Madam Deputy Speaker, there was never any reference at all to the term
"domestic violence." It was
almost as if such a thing did not exist.