LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, March 17, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Geraldine Sage, Marc Morelli, Marg Baker and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Orton Harrison, Susan Joyce, Joanne Wallace and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Robert Mooney, Myrna Oehlerking, Eleanore Verplaetse and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  I beg to present the petition of Alice Vorst, Minerva Burgess, Jim Burgess and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and a parallel justice system.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

       The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and

       The AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and

       The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self‑government and the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and

       The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self‑government and a separate and parallel justice system; and

       On January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and

       Despite the All‑Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system. (Mr. Ashton)

        I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

       The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and

       The AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and

       The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self‑government and the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and

       The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self‑government and a separate and parallel justice system; and

       On January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and

       Despite the All‑Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system. (Mr. Lathlin)

       * * *

       I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

       The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       The bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

       The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated. (Mr. Reid)

        The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

       The bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

       The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

       WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated. (Ms. Cerilli)

* (1335)

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

       

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

       Yesterday, I, along with the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), the honourable member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), Mayor Rick Borotsik and Mayor Bill Norrie, travelled to Ottawa to present our views to the Minister of National Defence's advisory group on defence infrastructure.

       The views put forward to the advisory group were unanimously supported by the all‑party committee of the Manitoba Legislature.  Our presentation also reflected consultation with interested citizens, groups and local government representatives from Brandon, Cornwallis, Shilo, Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg.

       My colleagues and I welcomed the opportunity to present our concerns to the advisory group.  Too often decisions regarding the fate of military bases have been made without public participation and in an atmosphere of secrecy.  Communities have often suffered through months of rumour and speculation regarding the fate of local bases.  Such speculation can be devastating for citizens who depend on the bases for their livelihood.

       Our recommendations to the advisory group focus on the need for greater openness and public consultation in the decision‑making process.  Communities that might face potential cuts should be notified at the outset to avoid needless anxiety. All studies and impact analyses conducted must be available to the public.

       The federal government must also put in place mechanisms to assist those communities affected by military cutbacks.

       We urged the advisory group to remain cognizant of the pride and valour with which Manitobans have historically served our nation's armed forces.

       With the closure of such facilities as CFB Churchill, CFB Gimli and more recently CFB Portage la Prairie, Manitoba has already endured more than its fair share of defence cuts.  While we recognize the need to streamline our defence infrastructure and to reduce unnecessary expenditures, we do not believe that depleting services in one area and moving them to another is in anyone's best interest.

       We will continue our efforts to ensure that Manitoba's concerns with regard to the rationalization of defence infrastructure are well known to the federal government.  I remain confident that with a united front we will succeed in maintaining and perhaps expanding the presence of the Canadian Armed Forces in Manitoba.  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his statement and would say that I appreciated the opportunity to be there along with the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) as well as the mayor of Brandon and the mayor of Winnipeg.

       I must say I was disappointed, and I continue to express the disappointment that we never, ever have yet been able to meet with the Minister of National Defence, which has been attempted for many a month now.  We did meet with the other caucuses.  We had a good hearing with the caucuses.  I only wish there were a few more Tories in the Tory caucus.  We only met with Mr. Lee Clark, but I would have liked to have met with some of the cabinet ministers from Manitoba as well.

       In hindsight, it may not matter because ultimately this decision about base infrastructure across Canada has been put on ice until the next federal election.  I am convinced there will be no major decisions made until after the next election, at which time there will likely be a new minister for sure and probably a new government.

       I would agree with the minister; we had a very good hearing with the advisory group.  It was an excellent panel.  It was a productive discussion, excellent presentations.  Everybody participated, and it was productive.

       It is important to know that the mandate of the advisory group is to set out the guidelines, the parameters, the criteria that a government should use in making rational decisions about future base infrastructure.  The mandate of the committee is not to say whether or not Shilo or Kapyong Barracks should remain or be closed.

* (1340)

       The next step, Mr. Speaker, is for the report of this committee to go to the minister and ultimately to the parliamentary committee on defence where there could even be more hearings, we are not sure.  The point is a new government, whatever government there may be, could simply ignore the report.  We have to keep on trying.  We have to continue to voice our concerns on behalf of Manitoba.  We can leave no stone unturned.

       Yesterday's meeting was productive with that committee.  As I said, it was a good panel.  The frustrating part of it is there is no guarantee that anyone will listen to that particular panel's report.  Therefore, there continues to remain a great deal of uncertainty.

       With regard to mitigation and economic offsets that could make up for the loss of defence spending or the loss of jobs, it is a very difficult task.  We have had experience in the past in Gimli, in Rivers and now in Portage to try to make up in some way with other kinds of economic activity.  Mr. Speaker, it is a very difficult, almost impossible, task particularly in rural Manitoba.

       Having said that, we will continue to try to do our very best on behalf of the people of Manitoba to ensure that we get our fair share of defence spending in this country.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Premierement j'aimerais remercier le ministre de nous avoir demande de participer comme delegues hier pour faire la presentation au comite consultatif pour le gouvernement federal.  Pour moi, comme delegue c'etait une tres belle experience, comme premiere fois a une conference comme telle.  On etait bien recu par le comite qui etait mis sur pied.  On etait la comme groupe unis avec les collegues de la Legislature et le maire de la Ville de Winnipeg.  On avait l'appui, j'en suis sur, de tous les elus de la province, puisse que ce n'est pas seulement un probleme des environs de Brandon, c'est un probleme pour toute la province.  Puisque ce n'est seulement un probleme des environs de Brandon, c'est un probleme pour toute la province.

       Il y a bien des choses qui sont ressorties hier a cette conference, cette presentation qui a ete faite par le gouvernement ici.  Alors on est en support de ce qui s'est passe.  Moi j'ai eu l'occasion de dire quelques mots sur la dualite canadienne lorsque c'etait un critere qui avait aborde alors que le ministre de Defense avait envoye demandant au ministre ici au Manitoba.

       Alors il m'a fait plaisir d'elaborer les services en francais qu'on a dans la province, toute, non seulement a Saint‑Boniface ou a la Ville de Winnipeg, mais dans les communautes francophones qui entourent Brandon et Shilo.  Et puis la Societe franco‑manitobaine aussi a des gens dans les differentes communautes, comme a Brandon, qui desservent ces communautes‑la. Alors si nous avons des gens qui viennent d'ailleurs qui sont francophones, il nous fait plaisir de les avoir parmi nous. C'est la culture qu'ils peuvent continuer‑‑il n'y a pas de probleme‑‑a vivre leur culture dans leur langue et travailler dans leur langue aussi, s'ils le veulent.

       Pour conclure, encore une fois j'aimerais remercier le ministre de la Justice (M. McCrae) de nous avoir apportes a Ottawa avec lui pour faire partie de la delegation.  On prevoit continuer a travailler en unite avec lui pour voir a la prochaine rencontre lorsqu'il aura un comite parliamentaire mis sur pied pour continuer l'etude des bases militaires au Canada.  Merci.

[Translation]

First of all I would like to thank the minister for asking us to participate as delegates yesterday to make that presentation before the federal government advisory committee.  For me, it was a wonderful experience, as it was my first time as a delegate at such a conference.  We were well received by the committee that was set up.  We were there as a united group with our colleagues from the Legislature and the mayor of the City of Winnipeg.  I am sure that we had the support of all the elected members in the province, since it is not just a problem in the Brandon area but throughout the province.

Many things came out yesterday at this conference during the presentation by our government, and we are in support of what happened.  I, myself, had the opportunity to say a few words regarding Canadian duality, which is a criterion that was examined at the request of the Minister of Defence.

It was my pleasure to discuss the French language services that we have here in the entire province, not only in St. Boniface or in the city of Winnipeg, but also in the Francophone communities that surround Brandon and Shilo.  The Societe franco‑manitobaine also has people in the various communities, such as Brandon, who serve those communities.  So if we have people who come from elsewhere who are Francophone, we are pleased to have them among us, and they can continue‑‑there is no problem‑‑to live their culture in their language and to work in their language, too, if they wish.

To conclude, once again, I would like to thank the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) for taking us to Ottawa with him as part of the delegation.  We anticipate that we will continue to work in unity with him with a view to the next meeting when a parliamentary committee is set up to continue the study of Canada's military bases.  Thank you.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

       

Bill 64‑The Child and Family Services Amendment Act

 

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 64, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les services a l'enfant et a la famille, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

       His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House.  I would like to table the message.

Motion agreed to.

* (1345)

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Elmwood High School, thirty‑two Grade 9 students.  They are under the direction of Mr. Dave Gillis.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer).

       On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

     

Department of Government Services

Consulting Firm

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister confirmed that indeed an RCMP investigation was being conducted into the Government Services leasing department. Search warrants were issued; investigation is proceeding.  Some of the answers of the minister raised more questions that we have today.

       I would like to ask the Minister of Government Services, in light of his answer yesterday that the investigation arose out of irregularities between the administration and the consulting contract, who employed the consulting firm that the minister referred to yesterday in his answer in the questions of the House?

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, I gave as much information as I could yesterday.  That is the question involved in the investigation. That is part of the investigation.  In fairness again to the employee, I gave him as much information as I could give him yesterday until that investigation is completed.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the minister did also say that it had no relation to the landlord.  Given the fact we have a consulting firm hired dealing with the government's own department, and the minister himself volunteered yesterday that it had nothing to do with the landlord, will the minister please answer today who hired the consulting firm in terms of the allegations an investigation is proceeding?

Mr. Ducharme:  Mr. Speaker, I can answer that our department did not hire the consultant.  That is what the investigation is about.  Our department did not hire the consultant.  That is what I mentioned yesterday.  That is between the employee who is being investigated and the consultant.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, if the department did not hire the consulting firm and the consulting firm did work, and the minister has stated in the House that it had no relationship to the landlord, what relationship does the landlord have to the consulting firm that is under investigation with the RCMP?

Mr. Ducharme:  Mr. Speaker, that is why it has been investigated‑‑none.

 

Dutch Elm Disease

Program Funding Restoration

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, there are four quite common‑sense reasons for the provincial government to reinstate its support of the Dutch elm disease program:  It is cost effective; it is labour intensive in a city where unemployment is growing and is already over 11 percent; thirdly, the conservation of elms has a direct effect on the economic competitiveness of Winnipeg as a prairie city; and finally, it has widespread popular support across the community.

       I would like to ask the Minister of Natural Resources, would he make the same commitment to the House that he made yesterday outside the House, that he is now willing to reconsider his government's position and restore the provincial funds for Dutch elm disease control?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, we have been fighting Dutch elm disease in the city of Winnipeg for the last 20 years.  The only two times that the program was substantially increased from a level of about $160,000 to $190,000 during the NDP Schreyer years to $350,000 was done, I say immodestly, by myself in a Conservative government in 1978. The next time the funding for the Dutch elm disease was increased occurred again six years later, after no increases at all by six years of the NDP government, I say again immodestly, by this same minister, when my Premier (Mr. Filmon) gave me the opportunity to do so in 1989, to $700,000.

       Mr. Speaker, we have in my department, along with others, in keeping with the realities of our budget requirements and on the advice of professional foresters who recognized that the drought cycle had been broken‑‑that we could bring it back to the $350,000 level without jeopardizing the program which we are completely dedicated to.  I want that put on the record that it was a Conservative administration that on two occasions recognized the importance of saving our elm trees.

       I am prepared to answer a question.  I am prepared, as I am prepared for many things, to review that program.  I invite her questions on that‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Ms. Friesen:  I think the minister should be‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

* (1350)

Ms. Friesen:  Is the minister, Mr. Speaker, in all his modesty, prepared to take a truly courageous and popular decision and withdraw the money that he has applied to the Oak Hammock Marsh and the Ducks Unlimited project and apply that money to the Dutch elm disease program?

Mr. Enns:  Mr. Speaker, because it essentially falls under the responsibility of a Conservative government to do the conservation measures and programs in this province, like the North American Waterfowl Management program that will safeguard our pothole country in the southwest, that is, of course, a ludicrous suggestion.  That program will enable and hopefully educate hundreds of thousands of Manitobans in the importance of wildlife, the importance of its preservation and its continued support.

       Mr. Speaker, I can report, while I am on my feet, that the building is 65 percent completed.  We are well ahead of schedule on the building.  In fact, I understand that a group of science educators and nature school studies are planning a symposium at the University of Manitoba, where we are well underway in developing the education interpretive program that is going to be of so much benefit to so many citizens of Manitoba, particularly our school children.

Ms. Friesen:  The last of the Dutch elms in Winnipeg will be a clear education to‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Multiyear Planning

     

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Will the minister make a commitment to work with the city or at least with his colleague the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) to develop the multiyear program which this cost‑shared program so obviously needs?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, I am happy to acknowledge that we will do that, and we have been doing that.  I also remind, as my colleague the Minister of Urban Affairs said, the city this year is receiving, I believe, a 4 percent increase in their overall block funding.  It is certainly within the decision making of the city if they wish to add some additional monies toward this very important part of the well‑being of the city of Winnipeg.

       My forestry people work daily with the city forestry people. We are engaged in a $2‑million program, not $350,000.  We are engaged in a $2‑million program to fight Dutch elm disease in the province of Manitoba.  We have contracts with 39 rural municipalities.  This is not just a city of Winnipeg problem; we have contracts with 39 rural municipalities throughout the length and breadth of this province where we also fight Dutch elm disease.

       So, Mr. Speaker, I offer the commitment of this government to any public scrutiny, to any accountability, as to our sincerity in fighting this disease.

     

Department of Government Services

Lease Information Tabling Request

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  My questions are to the Minister of Government Services.  There has been a great deal of controversy with regard to the MHRC space from the very beginning, since it was granted as we debated in this House before, outside of the bounds of the normal tendering process.

       Mr. Speaker, there is some information which we recognize the minister cannot release.  However, there is other information which we believe should be in the public purview.  Will the minister release today a copy of the original lease signed by this government?

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, let us get on the record that the landlord is not involved.  This is between an employee and a consulting firm.  Secondly, I will take your question under advisement and I will check to see if that is public record now, then I will be glad to release that particular lease.  There is no reason not to.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Well, I thank the minister for taking it under advisement, and I think there is no reason why that lease cannot be provided to all members of the Legislature.

       Mr. Speaker, a number of leasehold improvements were to be done to the building before it was leased to MHRC.  Will the minister table the list of improvements that were to be done to the building in order to achieve the provincial requirements necessary for leasing the building?

* (1355)

Mr. Ducharme:  Mr. Speaker, first of all, all improvements were done to the building.  That is to go on record.  Again, while this investigation is occurring, I feel that leading up to the investigation of this particular employee and the consultant that he has consulted with and hired, I would suggest that stay until the RCMP have completed their investigation.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, the leasehold improvements are quite simple.  It is a list of things which must be done in order for this building to meet specifications laid down by his department.  Can the minister tell us why he will not release those leasehold improvements that were to have been done?

Mr. Ducharme:  All I can assure the member across the way is that they were all done.  However, I will not release that information until the RCMP have completed their investigation.  Also, Mr. Speaker, there is an employee involved here.  That employee, through his agreement that he has as an employee of the Province of Manitoba, has that right to be dealt with very, very fairly. That is the system that is in place and that is the system that has been in place for many years, and I will abide by that system.

 

Manufacturing Industry

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, many of the Minister of Finance's comments in the budget related to developing an economic base, a base for economic growth in the province of Manitoba.  What Manitobans have seen over the past number of years and see through 1992 is the erosion of our economic base in the province.

       Last week I was sent a copy of the latest manufacturing shipments by industry from the Canadian Manufacturers' Association which shows that 1990 was a disastrous year and 1991 was even worse.

       My question to the First Minister or the Acting Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is:  When is this bleeding going to stop?  When are Manitobans going to have an opportunity to look forward to being employed in the manufacturing sector in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, of course, I find it interesting that the member opposite, who was a part of the government that did everything possible to destroy the economic base in this province by bringing in the second highest overall tax regime in the entire country, that brought in job‑destroying measures that were specifically aimed at business investment such as a payroll tax that deliberately destroyed jobs in this province, such as a 2 percent tax on net income, making us the highest personal income tax regime in the country, all of these measures, would now try and find some interest in economic development after he did everything possible, when he was a minister of the former government, to destroy jobs.

       The fact of the matter is, as the member will note from reading the budget, this province is expected to have the highest investment in manufacturing of any province in the country, the highest increase in manufacturing investment in this coming year at 31 percent.  That is an indication of confidence in this government's policies and desire by private manufacturers to get involved in increasing their production capability in this province.  That is the best indication that we are on the right track.

Mr. Storie:  I wonder when the First Minister is going to stop using the first envelope as an excuse for‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Question, please.

 

North American Free Trade Agreement

Manitoba Position

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my question is, I guess, to the First Minister.

       We know that the three leaders of Mexico, the U.S. and Canada have had or are having telephone conversations on the North American free trade agreement.  My question to the First Minister is:  Can he tell the people of Manitoba and tell this House what Manitoba's involvement has been in those discussions, whether Manitoba has indicated that we are not satisfied with the agreement, the trial agreement or the initial agreement, as proposed, for a North American free trade agreement and that we will not be part of it?

* (1400)

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Our involvement has been as much as, if not more than, the involvement of most other provinces.  This province took the initiative to put in writing the concerns that it had about any potential North American free trade agreement including Mexico, saying that we would not support any potential agreement unless it met a certain number of conditions.  I believe it was six conditions.  I know that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has repeated them countless times in this House.

       We went further than virtually any other province in stating our concerns and putting in writing‑‑[interjection] Mr. Speaker, I wish that the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) would stop interrupting and trying to shout me down while I am answering his question.

       I repeat that this province has done as much as, if not more than, any other province by putting in writing its concerns, by stating it would not support any North American free trade agreement with Mexico unless the conditions that we set out, I believe six of them, were met.  That remains our position. Obviously, we will not change that position without any assurance on the part of the federal government that those conditions will be met.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, those conditions are not going to be met.  It has been made very clear‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Withdrawal

       

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  My question to the First Minister is:  Can the First Minister provide this House and the people of Manitoba with any substantive evidence that he has or his new Economic Development Secretariat, for which Manitoba taxpayers are paying $900,000‑‑do we have any substantive information which would justify us not asking the federal government to pull out of the North American free trade agreement, no fast track, no slow track, pull out right now?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, this government has put on the record the conditions that must be met in order to achieve a North American free trade agreement that is acceptable to us. Those six conditions would, we believe, make it acceptable to Manitobans, to Manitoba industry and Manitoba producers.

       Unless those conditions are met, we are not prepared to support an agreement‑‑fast track, slow track, any track.  Those are the conditions, and we have put them forward.  That I think is a much more intelligent approach than that suggested by the member for Flin Flon.

 

GRIP Program

Premium Levels

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Agriculture why he did not announce the coverage and premium levels under GRIP by the March 15 deadline.  The minister sidestepped the question even though his manager, Henry Nelson, at Crop Insurance said that these levels would be announced by December 31.  He said this last November.  That is two and a half months ago.

       Since the GRIP contract, Clause 37, states that changes have to be mailed to the insured by March 15 of the year, will the minister now agree that the deadline has been missed?  Will he also agree and confirm in this House that any changes to those contracts will result in them being null and void?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, the GRIP management process involves a signatories committee which gives recommendations to the federal government, to provincial governments.  This has been an ongoing process over the past two months.

       As I said yesterday, we dearly wanted to have that information out, but there has been a major dispute on what the IMAP level of support will be for GRIP in 1992.

       I, as the Minister of Agriculture in the Province of Manitoba, have supported the principle that would keep the coverage as high as possible, namely, $4.08 a bushel.  Other jurisdictions in this country wanted to reduce the level of support to $3.84.  Mr. Speaker, I support the $4.08; I have argued for it.  I believe we have eventually won that argument, and the announcements will be coming out very shortly.  So in the process of the delay, there has been a significant increased level of support for farmers in GRIP in 1992 because of the initiatives from Manitoba.

       As I said to the member yesterday, it is unfortunate that other jurisdictions in this country did not want to support a high level of support in GRIP for 1992 for farmers.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this minister should have used cost of production‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Contract Validity

       

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Can this minister tell the House whether he has sought legal advice on the validity of the GRIP contracts if the support levels are lowered or the premium levels raised as this minister is planning to do?  Will he table that legal opinion in the House?  Are they legal?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, I have just given the member the information.  We are maintaining the support levels higher than some people wanted them to be.  In terms of premiums, he said that I intend to make them higher.

       I would like to read to the member what has happened in Saskatchewan:  Farmers' premiums, including crop insurance, will be up 20 percent higher this year than last year.  Is that what the member supports?

       Also, I would like to read from the Minister of Agriculture in Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker.  Wiens said that the government recognizes that the new program in Saskatchewan will be less effective than the one last year because, for their lower yields, there will be lower coverage in the province of Saskatchewan.  We did not support that.  His colleagues of Saskatchewan do, lower support for the farmers in 1992 versus 1991 and higher premiums in Saskatchewan.

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I have not recognized the honourable member for Dauphin yet.

Mr. Plohman:  Will the minister now admit that he has no choice but to maintain the support levels at the same level as last year and the premium levels higher than they were last year, since he has missed the deadline and the contracts will be null and void and farmers can remove themselves from those contracts at any time if they do not like it?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned to the member before and I will have to repeat it probably for the fourth or fifth time in the last two or three weeks, there is a signatories committee process in place that has to report to ministers before anything can be done for the next year.  We are still in a transitional year trying to evolve a program that farmers want.

       In Manitoba, farmers have wanted individuality and predictability.  We have maintained that in the 1992 contract. Saskatchewan has thrown it out entirely.  I look forward to the kind of response that is going to happen in Saskatchewan, particularly when they have made program changes that put their farmers at risk, at significant risk in 1992.

       The announcement that will be coming out very shortly will be very positive for the farmers of Manitoba.  There will be some delays obviously in the deadlines in order to give farmers the opportunity to respond.  There are numerous opt‑out options that the farmers have in the existing contract.

 

CRISP Program

Funding

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

       Budgets are all about priorities.  How the Premier and his government spend it reflects on their values.  With this in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier:  How does the Premier justify increasing by 6.8 percent the support to his office while limiting the increase to the CRISP program to less than half the rate of inflation?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, we will discuss the increases and the various aspects within the Estimates and debate them out.  I can tell him that Executive Council increase is less than 3 percent year over year, not 6 percent as he is portraying it to be.  So he obviously cannot read the information given to him very well.

       What I will say to him as well is the money that is budgeted for CRISP is the money expected to be paid out based on eligibility criteria.  If more people are eligible and more people apply and the money is there, we will still pay the money out.  We will pay whatever is necessary in order for people to qualify and receive CRISP, just as it has been in the past.  We will meet the criteria and we will meet the needs out there.

 

Labour Adjustment

Program Funding

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, how does the Premier justify a 6.7 percent increase to the support of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) while providing an increase to the Labour Adjustment Program which amounts to less than a third of a cent for the worker?  How does the Premier possibly‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, all of the questions with respect to Estimates will be discussed in Estimates.  We can decide whether or not the member for Inkster wants to justify an 8.7 percent increase in expenditures on Family Services, or a 5.7 percent increase on health care, or a 5.5 percent increase on Education.

       We have chosen our priorities in line with the priorities of the people of this province, and we will go into detail as much as he would like within the Estimates process for the discussion of the expenditures of this provincial government.  We will compare our priorities with the priorities of any other province in this country or the priorities of the Liberal Party when they come to this House and ask for money, money, money for everything without telling the people that they would raise taxes.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, we are asking about priorities; we are asking‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

 

Department of Health

External Agencies Funding

       

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  How does the Premier justify spending half a million dollars for a new secretariat while cutting the support for external agencies in the Department of Health, agencies which will deliver support to vulnerable Manitobans?  How again does he justify that?  Stand up‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, this government has indicated that it is going to give a very, very high priority to economic development and the creation of jobs.  The attraction of investment and the creation of jobs will be given a high priority by this government.

       The Liberal Party does not want to have jobs, does not want to have investment, and that is fine.  They are looking after themselves.  They want to play politics and do that, but they are not interested in building the base of this province, building the investment and building the jobs, and that is what we are interested in doing.

       We will continue to give that priority to it, and we will let the people of