LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Wednesday,
March 18, 1992
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
Mr. Clerk (William
Remnant): I must inform the House of the unavoidable
absence of Mr. Speaker and would ask, in accordance with the statutes, that the
Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) take the Chair.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the
petition of Allison Dewar, Laurie Sutherland, Katie Sutherland and others
requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child
abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): I beg to present the petition of Carole
Cahill, Shannon Mason, Debra Delveaux and others requesting the Minister of
Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of
Madam Deputy Speaker
(Louise Dacquay): I have reviewed the petition of the honourable
member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and
complies with the rules. Is it the will
of the House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
The
bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that
accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be
released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at
large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and
The
problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all
Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk,
particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
* * *
I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the
privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all
good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and
It
is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most
vicious of crimes; and
Programs like the Fight Back Against Child
Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime;
and
The
decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper
the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
* * *
I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the
privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read?
* (1335)
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
The
bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that
accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be
released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at
large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and
The
problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all
Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk,
particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the
privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
The
bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that
accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be
released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at
large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and
The
problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all
Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk,
particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
Introduction
of Guests
Madam Deputy Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw
the attention of all members of the House to the public gallery, where we have
with us this afternoon, from
Also with us this afternoon are eighty‑two
Grade 9 students from the
On
behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
North
American Free Trade Agreement
Government
Position
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, during the last
provincial election‑‑and dare I mention the Leaders' debate?‑‑I
asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the province a very, very serious question
about free trade with
Since that time we have seen the unconditional
"no" go to a conditional "maybe." On countless times in this Chamber, we have
been asking the government their position on not only the substance of the free
trade agreement but the timing of the free trade agreement with
I
would ask the Premier in light of the fact that the Prime Minister is now
stating that they are on a very fast track for free trade with
* (1340)
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, if I were the Leader of
the Opposition, I would not want to mention the last televised debate either.
I
repeat, at the time, in 1990, nothing was known of the proposal or of any
potential proposal for a free trade agreement as to whether or not there was
anything that was supportable or not supportable. Since then as information has come out,
Those six conditions were as follows: (1)
That is the clearest position that has been
put forth by any provincial government in the country, and that is the position
of the government of
Mr. Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon)
has given us no answer of whether he advised the Prime Minister to go on the
fast track which is presently in existence now.
I guess we will just step aside like we have done before, and Mulroney
will sign the free trade agreement, and then we will pull our six conditions
out of the hat at the end of the day after it is all over.
The
Premier has stated that we have taken the strongest position of any other government
in
I
would ask the Premier of Manitoba: Will
he be taking a strong definitive position on the fast track that is now in
existence at the economic First Ministers' meeting next week with the Prime
Minister?
Mr. Filmon: I will say to the Leader of the Opposition
that he is jumping at media reports and doing things with respect to things
that are put in various speculative reports.
I remind him that in response to these speculative reports, Trade
Minister Michael Wilson has stated that, firstly, there is no deal yet and
there will be no deal unless it is good for
I
suggest to him that the best position for us to be in is to state unequivocally
the conditions that must be fulfilled before such an agreement is acceptable to
North
American Free Trade Agreement
Government
Study Tabling Request
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): The Premier did have an
unequivocal position in the last election campaign during the debate, Madam
Deputy Speaker. He now has a set of six
conditions, but he cannot tell us whether he is in favour of a "fast
track, slow track" or whether he has advised the Prime Minister on any
track to follow. He quotes Michael
Wilson. This is the same person who told
Canadians that the GST would be revenue neutral. Again, we see the Premier not taking a strong
stand.
They have the
I
have a further question to the Premier.
In 1988 in this Chamber, the Premier stated on August 5, 1988, that free
trade with the
Will the Premier today table the study that
his secretariat has done on the winners, losers and job opportunities with a
North American free trade agreement?
Hon. Eric Stefanson
(Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Deputy Speaker, while we have drawn
on the resources of some of the national studies that are being done on the
Canada‑U.S.‑Mexico free trade, the best resource that we have are
the people of
In
the development of our position on this particular issue, we met at length with
all of the central organizations. We met
with labour unions. We met with the
academic members of our various universities and communities and helped utilize
them in developing our policy, because they are the ones who have to deal with
any change in a North American free trade agreement on a day‑to‑day
basis in terms of doing business here in
They have provided us with some of their
concerns. It was based on those reviews
and consultations that helped us formulate the position that we did in fact
take and to attach the six conditions that were put in place to any support for
North American free trade. We will
continue to work with the private sector in terms of meeting the concerns of
Manitobans.
* (1345)
Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry Report
Northern
Court Services
Mr. Elijah Harper
(Rupertsland): My question is to the Minister of Justice.
When government has virtually ignored
recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry‑‑so far its major
actions had been two photo‑opportunity press conferences featuring the
Justice minister (Mr. McCrae) and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.
My
question is for the Minister of Justice.
Has he read the report yet and, if he has, does he reconcile the
recommendations of the report with his plan to create a two‑tier justice
system, where the service in northern communities is even worse than it is
already?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, if I understand the
honourable member correctly, he was referring to a newspaper article today, not
naming some unnamed sources, and it relates to contract negotiation discussions
which are underway. I was contacted by
the newspaper involved and declined to comment on the specifics of the issues
that are the subject of collective bargaining.
The honourable member knows better than to suggest that this government
has ignored the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommendations. He knows also that we await with anticipation
the participation of aboriginal leadership in discussions that will lead to
implementation of real programs for real people in
Mr. Harper: Madam Deputy Speaker, northerners expect a
better system‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Question.
Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry Report
Northern
Court Services
Mr. Elijah Harper
(Rupertsland): My supplementary question is to the Minister
of Northern Affairs.
Has
the Minister of Northern Affairs read the report? Does he disagree with the report in terms of
court services in northern communities?
Hon. James Downey
(Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam
Deputy Speaker, the government has reviewed the report. We have established a process by which
positive changes can be made on behalf of the aboriginal people. As soon as the aboriginal people identify
themselves to work on those working groups, action will be taken.
Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry Report
Northern
Court Services
Mr. Elijah Harper
(Rupertsland): Will the Minister of Northern Affairs answer
this question? Aboriginal people are
tired of being treated as second‑class citizens. How can this government justify cuts when the
northern justice system is creating‑‑and not only failing the
people in the North? Will the proposed
cuts not result in more guilty pleas and more people needlessly serving time in
prison?
Hon. James McCrae
(Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I
have no idea what the honourable member is talking about, Madam Deputy
Speaker. I do not see anything relating
to cuts with respect to the delivery of justice services, the delivery of real
services to real people. In fact, if the
honourable member engages in discussion with me when we get to the review of
the Estimates of my department, I would be happy to discuss the many, many
aspects of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry to which this government is
committing itself to move forward with aboriginal people in the future.
It
would be nice, however, and we look forward to having the aboriginal leadership
join us at the table so that we can together implement these things. Perhaps the honourable member can use
whatever influence he has with the aboriginal leadership in this province to
encourage them to join us at the table.
* (1350)
School
Division
Boundary
Review Cancellation
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam
Deputy Speaker, we have been pointing out to this government since 1986 of a
need to review school division boundaries, a review that has not been conducted
effectively in this province for 40 years.
Finally in the 1990 campaign, we got a commitment from the Premier that,
yes, along with the revision to The City of Winnipeg Act, we would get a review
of school division boundaries.
Can
the Premier tell this House today why his government has deliberately backed
down to their commitment to parents, children, trustees and the need for
education in this province?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, as was, I think
explained and outlined quite adequately yesterday by the Minister of Education
and Training (Mrs. Vodrey), there are a number of issues that are actively
under consideration and under action by the minister and her department, many
of which have varying effects on the delivery of education services throughout
the
Yes, I will openly and freely admit that the
promise the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) referred to was made
during the election campaign. I made
that promise believing that there was a need for a review. Subsequently, as a result of the fact that we
are dealing now with the new Education funding formula; we are dealing now with
new Francophone governance structure to be implemented over the next while;
also with respect to the High School Review implementation‑‑all of
those matters I have been persuaded by members of school boards in the
educational community are matters that require adjustment, flexibility and
response by the school community, the education community‑‑now is
not the time to further impose yet another potential major change on them. This is a matter that ought to be put on the
back burner at the present time.
I
believe that the Minister of Education made the right decision and the right
policy decision on this matter. I am
quite happy to accept it.
Mrs. Carstairs: Madam Deputy Speaker, the reasons why the
minister has given for why it is not the appropriate time was the review of The
Public Schools Act, which has been going on now for a year, the Francophone
schools governance issue, which has been going on now for two years, the
implementation of the High School Review, which has been going on for three
years, and the implementation of the new finance model which was proceeding
prior to the last Speech from the Throne.
Can
the Minister of Education or perhaps the Premier‑‑because she was
not in the cabinet at that time‑‑explain why they made a commitment
to review those boundaries on December 5, 1991, when all of those things were
at that point going on?
* (1355)
Mr. Filmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said, those
matters are underway. Those matters all
require a great deal of time, energy and commitment on the part of not only
members of the staff of the Minister of Education and the department, but school
divisions throughout the province.
Teachers, resource people, administrators, school board members are all
involved and engaged in the implementation of all these many things. They can only be spread so thin in terms of
implementing these changes and after discussion‑‑and I invite the
Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs), rather than do as she normally
does, which is to impose from on high her judgment on the people in the
education community, every other community, I suggest to her that she do a
little consultation with those people and find out whether or not they wanted
to have yet another potential major change imposed upon them at the same time
as they are coping with all of these other changes.
I
am convinced from my consultations and discussions that they did not at the
present time. I invite her to once in a
while get in touch with the people out there who have to do those things.
Mrs. Carstairs: I will compare my list of educational
stakeholders whom I have talked to, to his list any day, and I will come out
far ahead.
School
Division Boundary Review
Impact
Francophone Governance
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam
Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education.
Since the review of school division boundaries
will not take place, how does she believe that the issue of Francophone
governance can be dealt with quickly and effectively in that it affects a
number of school divisions?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Madam
Deputy Speaker, in answering that question, I would like to say that the
matters are in fact two separate matters.
In
consultation with the educational stakeholders, with school divisions and with
parents who have let us know the pressure at the moment on the educational
system, this government listened to them, and we said: I believe you.
The
issue of Francophone governance, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are pleased to be
moving ahead with in a very active way, and there will be an announcement soon
regarding implementation.
Core Area
Initiative
Renewal
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): My question is for the
Minister of Urban Affairs.
Last June the minister received federal
proposals for a new Core Area Initiative.
He was, he said, hopeful, and he said the province and the federal
government were this close. Some weeks
ago now, he received a revised proposal from the federal government. It seems clear now that it is this government
which is dragging its heels on the future of the core area.
My
question for the minister is: Will he
tell the House exactly what the obstacles are in his view? Why is his government choosing to stand in
the way of such significant programs?
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Urban Affairs): Madam Deputy Speaker, I can advise my
honourable friend, as I have on a number of occasions, that we are in the
process of negotiating with our two partners in this matter.
The
fact of the matter is, though, Madam Deputy Speaker, that while we are
reasonably close, I think, to an agreement, we are not prepared to sign an
agreement at any cost for the sake of signing an agreement. We want to have the best possible agreement,
and they will be the first ones to criticize if we signed an agreement that was
not the best possible agreement. We will
continue to work toward that end. I am
hopeful that within a short period of time, we will have significant
announcements to make.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister then tell the House, give
us a time table, when is he prepared to make a decision, so that the remaining
employees in the Core Area Initiative can stop packing their bags? Will he in sum manage this transition in a
responsible and appropriate way?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Deputy Speaker, the management of the
Core Area offices, as a matter of fact, has been managed in a most responsible
way. We are not carrying on with large
employee groups that have nought to do, whose jobs have been completed. We are
keeping a small staff there to ensure ongoing programs are looked after.
We
have taken the initiative with respect to the core area immigration training
programs, that they will in fact be kept on as skeleton staff. They will be kept on for the next two months
in anticipation of a new agreement. So,
Madam Deputy Speaker, it is being well managed.
Ms. Friesen: Madam Deputy Speaker, could the minister then
tell the House in light of the less than spectacular funding that we have seen
for Core Area Initiative in the past, what level of funding is he proposing for
the next Core Area?
Mr. Ernst: Madam Deputy Speaker, almost $200 million of
taxpayers' money has been spent in the core of
The
fact of the matter is at the moment we are in negotiations with respect to a
subsequent agreement. That agreement, as
I have said on a number of occasions, is under consideration at the
moment. As soon as we have finalized
that, I will be pleased to advise the House.
* (1400)
Human
Resources
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Madam Deputy Speaker, in the last budget,
Selkirk was hit hard by this government when it announced the closure of the
My
question is to the Minister of Family Services.
What criteria did this minister use besides an electoral map when he
made the wrong decision to close this centre?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Madam
Deputy Speaker, from time to time, we hear from opposition members the need to
evaluate and look at training programs to assist people who are seeking
employment. We have some successful
programs that I could tell you about in that area.
The
Single Parent Job Access Program is one I would speak of that has graduated a
number of people into the work force. We
also have the Gateway program which assists young people in particular in
retraining at a number of areas to get into the work force.
Simply, besides adding programs‑‑and
we have referred to the Partners with Youth program‑‑we also have
to evaluate the programs that we have and look at ones that are not as
successful as other ones and reprioritize some of our spending and some of our
initiatives in that area.
One
of the decisions we have made in this budget is to look at the training plant
in Selkirk. We feel that we can offer
that service through the HROCs in
Mr. Dewar: Everything is going to Gimli, Madam Deputy
Speaker.
Service
Expansion
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):
Will the minister keep the Selkirk centre
open, in fact expand services there, so we have some more trained workers in
this province and fewer unemployed?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Madam
Deputy Speaker, again we hear opposition members asking for expanded services,
expanded expenditures. When we looked at
the pretend‑budget that was brought down last Tuesday, it called for only
5 percent additional expenditures in Family Services, almost 4 percent short of
what our budget has in it.
That $20 million that they would not spend, I
challenged the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) yesterday to let us
know where they would not spend that money, whether they would take it out of
training programs or whether they would take it out of daycare. I am sure the member for
Closure
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Will this minister table in the House any
studies which demonstrate that Gimli is more cost effective than Selkirk?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Madam
Deputy Speaker, we have a number of effective programs, and I reference the
Single Parent Job Access Program. [interjection] I see a former Minister of
Education laughing at the thought that there are effective programs in training
people. I reference that program and the
Gateway program. We do have human
resource centres in a number of areas of the province. We are going to add new resources to job
training, and we are reprioritizing some of the funding that we have in this
area.
Granting
Authority
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Madam Deputy Speaker, while we were listening
to the budget last week, the deputy minister met with the Heritage federation,
and once again this government has chosen to take away from the volunteers the
funding or the granting authority from the organization.
My
question to the minister is: Can the
minister tell this House why the granting authority has been taken away from
the Heritage federation?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Deputy Speaker, I will attempt to answer
that question for the critic from the second opposition party and indicate
that, in fact, the Heritage community will be served in a very reasonable and
good way as a result of the changes that were made.
There has been no reduction in the amount of
funding to the Heritage community as a result of the decision. In fact, there may be more dollars available,
because the money that will be distributed will not go as much toward
administrative costs but will go to the community organizations who need the
money most.
Volunteer
Board
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
If
she is using the administration costs, she entered into the agreement with the
federation and knew full well what the administration costs were. You cannot use that, Madam Deputy Speaker‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Does the member have a question?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Deputy Speaker, I realize full well that
there are many, many volunteers within the Heritage community and within all
communities who dedicate and commit their time to serving their interests and
their needs, so I do nothing but commend volunteers for their contribution.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I have on occasion met
with the Heritage federation as I have met with the entire Heritage
community. We believe that the process
that will be put in place to deliver funding to the Heritage community will
indeed serve the community well and be administratively less costly.
Mr. Lamoureux: The question quite simply to the minister is:
Why does she not trust the volunteers in administering this program? If the administration is the argument that
she is basing the cutting out of this particular organization of the
volunteers, why does she not just simply sit down with these volunteers and
work out some sort of an agreement‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the member for
Vegetable
Producing Industry
Mr. Edward Connery (
This unfair trade practice ties up space in the
wholesalers' coolers and ties up this fresh product. They have never found a load unacceptable in
their testing.
Can
the minister inform this Legislature what action he has taken as the federal
government has taken none?
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Madam Deputy Speaker,
very clearly this is a very significant issue for the vegetable industry. Clearly what the
We
found evidence in the last couple of months that they are inspecting as many as
25 percent of the loads going into the
* (1410)
I
have sent a letter to the federal Minister of Trade back in August of last
year. My officials met with American
officials in October of last year. I
have again‑‑because probably have to say the increased rate of
inspections in the last two months‑‑sent another letter this month
asking the federal minister to talk to his counterparts in the
Federal
Day
Haul
Worker Program
Mr. Edward Connery (
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Madam Deputy Speaker,
yes.
North
American Free Trade Agreement
Impact Agricultural
Industry
Mr. Edward Connery (
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a
supplementary question?
Mr. Connery: ‑‑and especially aboriginal
people.
Will the minister forcefully put forth
Hon. Glen Findlay
(Minister of Agriculture): Madam Deputy Speaker,
with regard to the
I
will take the member's concerns forward to any of the discussions I am involved
in.
I
would also like to remind members of this House that the
Broadway
House
Closure
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Did
the Minister of Family Services consult with community groups such as the
Association for Community Living or the Residential Coalition of Service
Providers before he closed Broadway House, or was it closed, as the staff of
Broadway House was notified, to satisfy the Treasury Board requirements of
decreased spending and decreased services?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Madam
Deputy Speaker, the member references decreased spending and decreased
services. I would point out to her that
this department has the highest increase in spending of any department across
government, some 8.7 percent increase in our budget. [interjection]
Well, the member wants to talk about social
allowances. We have brought in some very
innovative changes, greater reforms than the previous NDP government ever
brought in. We created a new program for
the disabled. We brought up the liquid
assets levels, initiatives that my friend in the NDP has brought forward
frequently. There have been a tremendous
number of reforms brought forward.
As
far as working with the community to provide programming for mentally
handicapped people, we have had a number of working groups. We have some initiatives we are going to be
bringing forward. We have major
legislation that we are bringing forward that I have shared with the critics of
the other two parties. We have some very
innovative things that are happening in that area.
Employees'
Status
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):