LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, March 23, 1992

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dolores Hebert, Louis R. Marchildon, Manon Harvey and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is a substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tammie Forsythe, Kirsten Lindal, Daljeet Sanan and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated. (Mr. Reid)

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I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Dewar)

I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis)

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I would like to table the Annual Report 1990‑91 for the Department of Family Services, also the Supplementary Information for Departmental Expenditure 1992‑1993, Family Services.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table today in the House the 1990‑91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Labour Board.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Hedges Junior High School, fifteen Grades 8 and 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Richard Strongman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh).

Also, from the Crestview School, we have twenty‑four Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Patricia Lohr. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

North American Free Trade Agreement

Manitoba Position

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

Tomorrow, the First Ministers' meeting will again start in Toronto culminating with a meeting on Wednesday, and this is our last opportunity to raise questions in the Chamber prior to the departure of government ministers for that very important meeting. This will be the third First Ministers' meeting on the economy of Canada over the last three and a half months, Mr. Speaker, and yet we see thousands if not millions of people unemployed in this country, 1.5 million unemployed, thousands of businesses on the edge of bankruptcy, investors very concerned about the conditions of our country and rising welfare right across this country by people devastated by the recession.

We also have at the same time negotiations going on between Canada, United States and Mexico on free trade. Many people, many Manitobans are phoning us‑‑I am sure they are phoning members opposite‑‑concerned about the secrecy of these negotiations, concerned about the timing and the speed of these negotiations, and concerned about whether their jobs will be maintained or not maintained after these negotiations are completed.

I would ask the Deputy Premier: Will the government of Manitoba be making a strong stand at the First Ministers' meeting on the economy on the free trade agreement in North America, a strong stand on the secrecy, on the timing and on the impact of the trade agreement on behalf of Manitobans at that meeting this week?

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Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, there is no secret as to the position of this government as it relates to the North American free trade agreement. The Premier last week again spelled out the conditions of which any discussions or negotiations in fact would be taking part.

The Leader of the New Democratic Party last week, and his party, missed the opportunity to help all Manitobans and those people in Manitoba by voting against the budget, a dastardly thing to do on a document and initiative that this government has established. He voted against youth employment programs, support for the health care systems, and I think the people of Manitoba have caught on to him and his irresponsible tactics.

Mr. Doer: Well, all the Manitobans watching the government's position on free trade with Mexico and United States will be very impressed by the Deputy Premier's rhetoric here this afternoon.

North American Free Trade Agreement

Labour Adjustment Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, a further question to the First Minister on the proposed free trade with Mexico.

The government has not told us whether they are going to make a statement tomorrow at the economic meeting, and I do not know why they would miss that opportunity. The government has stated that they will only support free trade with Mexico if it includes a labour adjustment strategy.

Notwithstanding the fact that we have had training budgets cut in net terms over the last two budgets that the provincial government has brought in in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, Canada has not given Manitoba anything in terms of a labour adjustment strategy after free trade. In fact, the only labour adjustment strategy we have seen in Canada has really been a massive increase in people being laid off and, unfortunately, going on welfare. That has been the only labour adjustment strategy we have seen in this country, the only strategy.

I would ask the Premier: What agreement does he have with the federal government for a labour adjustment strategy with the federal government, and to whom will that adjustment strategy be applied to? Which workers in Manitoba will be directly impacted that they will need the labour adjustment strategy the Premier has called on as one of his conditions?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, in the case of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States, the previous administration of which the Leader of the Opposition was a part called for a labour adjustment strategy without knowing specifically which industries might or might not be affected.

The fact of the matter was that it is fail‑safe so that regardless of where there might be adjustments within the economy, it would apply. There was an identification of particular areas prior to the Free Trade Agreement.

The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has indicated that his department is doing the same kinds of consultations with specific sectors of the economy, and we are aware of areas that are of concern to us. Those areas will obviously be ones in which any adjustment strategy would be applied.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, let the record show that we were opposed to the Free Trade Agreement with the United States. We did not say, as the Premier did, that there would be 15,000 new net jobs in Manitoba. We said there would be thousands of jobs lost in the food processing industry, and therefore, we had a different position than the members opposite on this very, very vital set of negotiations.

North American Free Trade Agreement

Impact Crown Corporations

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A final question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

In light of the fact that he does not have a negotiated deal with the federal government on labour adjustment strategies, or he has not come forward with one to date, Article 402 of the proposed draft agreements may change or will change, as drafted, the conditions under which Crown corporations and provincial governments operate vis‑a‑vis the Free Trade Agreement with the United States.

I would wonder whether the Premier has any analysis of whether in fact this will impact on the Crown corporations. What will be the impact on jobs and services in Manitoba with a change from the Free Trade Agreement which is, of course, one of their conditions of not approving free trade with Mexico?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I think as the honourable member knows, we recently received a copy of the draft text from the federal government, a text which outlines a Canadian position, a U.S. position and a Mexican position.

We are in the process of reviewing that entire text, as I said the other day in the House, consulting with various sectors of our economy, various industries within Manitoba. Part of that is also the effect on procurement, on Crown corporations, and that will be a part of our response to the draft text.

I should point out that other jurisdictions have not even adopted positions to date. For instance, I received a document at the end of last week from British Columbia, and they say the provincial government has made it clear that it will reserve judgment on any final North American free trade agreement until the province has seen one and had an opportunity to determine whether it will benefit British Columbia‑‑clearly, from their perspective, a rational position; ours, we have put our position on the record.

We now have a draft text that we are working from, Mr. Speaker. We will analyze that in consultation with Manitobans and come forward with a position at that point.

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Health Care Facilities

Bed Closures

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health has been very vague and unclear about this government's agenda when it comes to the overall budget situation of our hospitals and beds in our urban facilities.

In response to questions on Friday, the Minister of Health suggested that he has not asked the Health Sciences Centre anything specific in terms of budget cuts or bed closures. We have, Mr. Speaker, a memo from Mr. Rod Thorfinnson, who is president of the Health Sciences Centre, to all staff, dated March 20, 1992, indicating that there has been a clear message conveyed to the Health Sciences Centre about restructuring the system. There are grave tones in this memo, talking about working with staff in these difficult days.

Mr. Speaker, it is clear that there is a restructuring plan. There are budget directives and cutbacks going to hospitals. I want to ask the Minister of Health if today, finally, he will let us know in this Chamber, let all Manitobans know how many beds are being cut or requested to be cut at the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface. How many dollars are being reduced from the budgets of our urban hospitals?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I simply want to welcome the critic for the New Democratic Party into health care reform of the 1990s.

The system clearly is going to go through restructuring exactly as the memo from the president of the Health Sciences Centre to the staff of the various departments of the Health Sciences Centre is stating. If my honourable friend thinks for one minute that that restructuring is not going to happen in this province and across Canada, then indeed she is engaging in old think.

Mr. Speaker, the difference in Manitoba, the process, is that there is a 5.7 percent increase in funding this year, $101 million‑‑$53 million more to the hospitals in the province of Manitoba. That contrasts sharply to the Ontario situation where the increase for all of Ontario hospitals approaches some $75 million. How would she like to have that budget agenda before her? That would equate to approximately a $15‑million increase in hospitals in Manitoba this budget, not $53 million.

The restructuring, yes, will go on. Mr. Speaker, whether my honourable friend understands the process or not will remain to be seen as we debate the Health Estimates over the next number of hours.

Health Care System Reform

Consultations

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, in light of concerns being expressed by the Manitoba Medical Association, which the minister dismissed with contempt on Friday, and now concerns expressed by on‑the‑line doctors working at the Health Sciences Centre, will the minister indicate to this House whether he is prepared to consult now with doctors, with nurses, with health consumer groups, with patients and with the Manitoba public at large about its restructuring plan so that we can all be informed and understand the direction this government is taking our health care system in?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, those discussions have been and will continue to be going on. That is the whole focus of the Urban Hospital Council.

Specifically, since my honourable friend wishes to offer concerns that she has in echoing the MMA, I wonder where my honourable friend stands as official party critic for the New Democrats and the concern I have that we cannot afford the MMA's asking price of last year's contract of 12.1 percent. I have a great concern about that, and as I stated in the paper correctly on Saturday, if 12.1 percent more resource goes to physician services, there will naturally be less of them performed.

I wonder if my honourable friend shares that concern, or is she in bed with the MMA union?

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Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: That is, Mr. Speaker, how the minister treats the head of orthopedics, the head of pediatrics‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Health Care Facilities

Bed Closures

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health about these bed closures, specifically ask how many beds are being closed at the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospitals in order to open the beds promised two years running in the capital Estimates of this Minister of Health and this government, at Concordia, beds at Deer Lodge and beds at the municipal, how many beds are being‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend quite rightfully identifies a number of capital construction projects which have been undertaken by this government. I need only remind my honourable friend that the last time she sat around cabinet table, in the glory years of Howard Pawley and the NDP, the entire capital budget of the province of Manitoba had been frozen in a skulking decision at midnight behind closed doors, not even communicated to anybody.

I recognize my honourable friend's sensitivity when a number of construction projects have been ongoing and will continue to be ongoing to meet the legitimate care needs of Manitoba, in an appropriate location, providing appropriate service levels. That may include Concordia Hospital, which has a construction project long awaited for, twice delayed and postponed and cancelled by the NDP under Mr. Schreyer and under Mr. Pawley.

In terms of restructuring the system, yes, there are going to be patient services moved from our high‑cost centres, such as our teaching hospitals, with the patient to a lower‑cost centre of delivery. The patient, the consumer of health care, will not be compromised in this, Mr. Speaker, because the service will move with the patient. I hope my honourable friend finds the goodness in her heart to consider the patients in all of this.

First Ministers' Conference

Government Agenda

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, the recession and the bad economic outlook have Manitobans confused. They have them angry, scared and, if one goes by the behaviour in this House, particularly on Fridays, very testy. Tomorrow the Premier is leaving for a First Ministers' Conference on the economy to try and develop, one hopes, a national co‑ordinated strategy to bring our country out of this recession.

Can the First Minister tell us what new initiatives, proposals or plans he will be bringing to the First Ministers, in that his Finance minister seems to think that everything the federal government is doing is just fine, if one uses his reaction to the last federal budget as an indicator?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that the Leader of the Liberal Party should not misrepresent the comments that were made with respect to the budget by the Finance minister. The Finance minister applauded the fact that taxes were being held down, something that does not happen often enough by federal governments. Certainly, those of Liberal persuasion who were there for so many years throughout the '70s and early '80s did nothing but raise taxes in this country and raise the deficit. The fact that the federal government's budget kept taxes down, kept the deficit down was something that was applauded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

The Leader of the Liberal Party should know that the meeting we are embarking upon tomorrow and carrying on Wednesday is a continuation of meetings that began in December. When at the first meeting, we established certain directions and certain agreements about priorities and put on the table certain ideas, some of which were incorporated ultimately into the federal budget, things like reduction of the down payment for CMHC mortgages, use of RRSPs for financing new home purchases and so on, carried on with a second meeting in the first week of February that established a series of six priority areas that we wanted to work upon because we felt they had the greatest opportunity for improvement in the near term of our economic prospects as we come out of the recession in this country.

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I could go into detail, but I am sure that the Leader of the Second Opposition has the newspaper and media coverage at her disposal in which we laid out those six areas. They have been worked upon by committees of ministers and senior officials, and they are putting now on the table for this meeting tomorrow and Wednesday the results of those deliberations in the form of position papers or proposals that we as First Ministers will deal with. The new ideas are a collection of the input of all of the provinces, and they will be the basis upon which we will look for individual actions and initiatives that we hope will be positive to the economic growth of this province and this country.

Education and Training Initiative

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Premier McKenna at the last meeting talked about the need for a co‑operative program to bring forward a national education and training initiative. In December, the First Minister also indicated his support of such a training initiative.

Can he tell us today what kind of discussions have taken place between this province and the province of New Brunswick with respect to a national plan on education and training? Will they be presenting tomorrow a joint initiative on education and training?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, because of a desire to move forward effectively with respect to position papers and proposals, this province was given a lead role in the area of trade, both external and interprovincial. In fact, that was split down between British Columbia and ourselves, with British Columbia taking the lead on external trade and us on internal trade within Canada.

New Brunswick took the lead on the training paper, and that paper has been put together in a form that I think has many positive features to it. We believe that with further discussion there will be some positive initiatives that will come out of that particular paper. I am encouraged by some of the things that are being proposed as a result of the consultations that have taken place amongst officials throughout the country.

Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that community colleges are being funded at 1990‑91 levels, in fact less than 1991 levels in this province, can the Premier tell us today what specific ideas this province contributed to a national education and training concept?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Second Opposition knows full well, the budget calls for about $2.5 million of new initiatives in the area of Education and Training, particularly to be delivered in the post‑secondary level by, not only the community college system, but through our Workforce 2000 program involving training in the workplace. I am sure that she will be interested in debating and discussing that with the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey) when her Estimates come up for review in this House.

Race Relations Policy

Education System

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): This government, Mr. Speaker, is not taking a leadership role in preventing the proliferation of racism in schools. Like so many other responsibilities, schools and school boards are expected to deal with this responsibility on their own. This government chooses instead to put new staff into the minister's secretariat while eliminating positions in the Department of Education that work in schools.

Will the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism work with her colleague the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey) to ensure that all school divisions in Manitoba will have a policy on race relations?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I want to say congratulations to many of the school divisions and many of the schools that really did undertake antiracism initiatives last week and especially on Friday. I want to commend them and say to them, yes, no one can do it alone. Government cannot do it alone, and the school divisions cannot do it alone. We need to develop partnerships, and we need to have people out there in the communities speaking against racism wherever it might occur. I do know that many schools throughout the province of Manitoba have undertaken very positive initiatives, and I want to say to them today congratulations and thank them.

Ms. Cerilli: It would be good if the minister would answer the questions. They are very direct questions, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister also ensure with her colleague in the Department of Education that school divisions will have programs in place, specific programs, to ensure that all staff in school divisions are in‑serviced on a crosscultural training?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, we are working together with the Department of Education with my department and with the Multiculturalism Secretariat. I know we are at the present time looking at a multicultural education policy that will be announced in due course.

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Programs Funding

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, will the government get its priorities straight then to put resources into the community and into schools rather than into the minister's escort staff?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, as a result of our restructuring and moving the Citizenship Division within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, we have reorganized. We have set up and established an Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch. We have also set up a Citizenship Branch. Within that Citizenship Branch, we announced last week‑‑and I think it was a very positive announcement because we often hear criticism from members of the opposition that we are not doing enough within government.

We have restructured that branch so that in fact we will have an antiracism co‑ordinator who will be dealing internally with breaking down barriers within government that might prohibit some people from accessing government services and government jobs.

I think it is a positive move in the right direction, and I am really disappointed that members of the opposition are not coming forward and applauding this government on the positive moves that they are making and the positive direction that we are taking.

Legal Aid Services

Labour Dispute

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Justice minister.

Last year's annual report of the Legal Aid commission talked of crisis conditions amongst Legal Aid staff and warned the minister that unless he undertook discussions with all those involved in the legal aid system, serious problems would develop.

Now that the government has failed to follow this advice, what contingency plans, if any, does this minister have to deal with the possible labour action to occur in the North and perhaps throughout the province?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, we are determined as a government to provide services to disadvantaged people in this province under our Legal Aid program. I understand that some of the members of the legal profession in Thompson, led by one Bob Mayer, who is not unknown to honourable members in the New Democratic Party and is on a first‑name basis with pretty well every union boss in this province‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The minister was asked a very serious, straightforward question about contingency plans for legal aid. He ought not to stoop to personal attacks, and he also ought to check with some of his political confreres in Thompson who also are opposed to this government's cut in terms of legal aid.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order.

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Mr. McCrae: There can be no question that other lawyers besides Mr. Mayer would be disappointed with the necessity for tariff reductions this coming fiscal year. The bottom line for the government is delivery of service to disadvantaged people. I do not know how it helps disadvantaged people in the civil law side of legal aid, which is not the subject of any tariff reduction. I do not know how it helps disadvantaged people to withdraw services from them.

On the other hand, the government of Manitoba is, as I have said, determined to see that disadvantaged people in this province are provided with legal aid, and we will see that that happens.

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Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister how he proposes to deal with those legal services in the event that they are not available, since already Legal Aid staff are unable to deal with the volume of work that is occurring presently today. How does the minister propose to deal with the withdrawal of services, because today, already, there are Legal Aid certificates being passed on from staff lawyers to the private bar?

Mr. McCrae: As I said to the honourable member, Mr. Speaker, the government of Manitoba is committed to ensuring that disadvantaged people in this province receive the legal services they require.

This government has placed in the Legal Aid account this year an increase in funding of $1.3 million. That is about 11 percent for the Legal Aid account. The reason for that kind of an increase, the major reason, has to do with dwindling resources at the Law Foundation, which normally grants $2 million to the Legal Aid account. Well, that is down this year to $1.2 million. There is $800,000 there which had to be made up, and in addition, since 1989‑90, the federal government capped its share of its contribution to the Legal Aid program. That had to be taken care of, for a total of $1.3 million additional into the Legal Aid account this year. That is an increase of about 11 percent, Mr. Speaker. To me that sounds like a commitment to the people of this province.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is: Can the minister assure this House, since the family bar and the criminal bar are one and the same in the North, that no domestic violence cases, no cases of abuse and no other cases of that nature will suffer and people will not be put back out on the streets as a result of this government's lack of action in dealing with this matter?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I know that an option being put forward by members of the bar, of which the honourable member is one, is to cut back on the eligibility of people for Legal Aid services and also to bring in user fees. I say to the honourable member that perhaps he should use whatever powers of persuasion he has to talk his colleagues out of that kind of idea. We looked at those suggestions, Mr. Speaker. I have undertaken to look at them again, but that is not our preferred‑‑[interjection!

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. McCrae: User fees and reduced eligibility, Mr. Speaker, are not really the first priorities of this government. Maybe the honourable member wants to put those ideas forward, but I do not immediately accept them.

We have in place plans to ensure that service delivery is not in any way reduced, Mr. Speaker.

Headingley Correctional Institution

Psychiatric Care Facilities

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Justice.

This minister appears quite clearly to be seeking to escape the intent and spirit of the new amendments to the Criminal Code of Canada, which require mentally ill individuals who are mentally unfit to stand trial to be sent to a hospital to be medically treated if they are to be kept in custody at all. Mr. Speaker, that law was the direct result of the Supreme Court of Canada decision approximately one year ago which set a new standard for fairness for these individuals who are not prisoners but patients who have not gone through a trial and been found guilty of anything but have simply been found mentally unfit to stand trial.

Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: Can the minister table in the House today accreditation documentation showing that Headingley qualifies for this minister's designation as a psychiatric hospital in compliance with that new federal law and in compliance with the Supreme Court of Canada?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, there are five cases presently at Headingley Correctional Institution identified as not criminally responsible, and the designation made earlier of Headingley was done on a temporary six‑month, interim period basis.

The honourable member will know that later this year, there will be a 20‑bed psychiatric facility constructed at the Health Sciences Centre. In addition, there are possibilities for a designation of spaces at the new provincial Remand Centre, the medical floor which is separate from all the other floors.

The key to the future, of course, is a long‑term forensic treatment facility, hopefully at Selkirk. There are problems in this respect. The honourable member knows about the evolution of laws and how laws that get changed quickly sometimes create problems, such that the honourable members opposite in the New Democratic Party will know that in Saskatchewan, for instance, not just a few beds in one facility have been designated, but four. In their entirety, four prisons in Saskatchewan have been designated by the NDP government of Saskatchewan as hospitals.

We have some short‑term, interim difficulties to get through, and we will do so as sensitively and as carefully as we can, keeping in mind the federal involvement that is required for the long‑term planning for these people.

Mr. Edwards: Again for the same minister, Mr. Speaker, this minister has known that this was coming for a year. It was a year ago that the Supreme Court of Canada handed down its decision, so the minister's definition of "quickly" has to be questioned.

Why after a year can he not give members conclusive evidence that this government is prepared and able and willing to comply with the law which, again, was set down by the highest court in this land, because the individuals he is keeping in custody, if it is illegal, will be let go‑‑does he not understand that?‑‑possibly injuring themselves and members of society? Can he deal with that?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I have a very clear understanding of this issue. The Department of Justice, over a long period of time, has engaged in frequent correspondence with the federal government, working at the officials' level in developing the new law.

We are not happy with all of the aspects of the new law, but that is not for lack of input on the part of the province of Manitoba. We have known for some time that there was potential difficulty involving criminally insane individuals and their care in the future, so as I told the honourable member, in answer to the first question, I referred to interim measures being taken at the Health Sciences Centre, potentially at the Remand Centre and longer term at Selkirk.

Here, the honourable member will remember, most of the people found not responsible, if they were found to be sane, would be serving federal time in federal penal institutions, so there is no way I suggest that the federal government ought to be trying to evade responsibility for helping in putting together facilities to deal with the long‑term care of the people whom the honourable member is asking about.

Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, only this Minister of Justice would presume guilt without a trial. These people are not guilty‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please.

Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, my final question for the Minister of Justice‑‑I am glad that his department has been involved. Can he table in this House a legal opinion from his department indicating that this facility qualifies as a facility in keeping with the new law and in keeping with the Supreme Court of Canada? Can he table a legal opinion saying that this will constitute a psychiatric facility?

Mr. McCrae: Well, the honourable member knows, Mr. Speaker, we do not generally table internal legal opinions made available to the department. Maybe he, together with the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and his New Democratic Party colleagues, would ask Premier Romanow or Attorney General Mitchell what kind of legal opinions they are following with regard to four prisons in Saskatchewan that have been designated as hospitals. I assume that in the province of Saskatchewan, those designations are not intended to be permanent any more than they are in Manitoba.

Retail Trade Sector

Sales Decline

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

Mr. Speaker, statistics released today show that retail sales in Manitoba declined in January by 2 percent over the previous January. No other province declined in January. In fact, Canada as a whole showed an increase of 2.8 percent of retail sales, and this follows on a 2.5 percent decline in Manitoba in 1991 and a zero percent situation, a no‑go situation, in 1990.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Finance is: Why are retail sales continuing to sag in Manitoba? Why are we performing so poorly? Why are we 10 out of 10?

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Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Well, I guess, Mr. Speaker, I could ask the question: Why is the member opposite so happy? See the smile. I make my point.

I have not seen the article in question, and I have not seen the analysis. I can tell the member I have seen my sales tax revenue for the month of January, and certainly it was increased over that which was budgeted for. I would say to the member opposite, that was also the case for the month of February. I have to believe that on the consumption side over the last three months, there has been a growing optimism within this area and that the trend is looking favourable.

I am hoping that events over the last two weeks, particularly the interest rate jump, are now over. I hope that indeed the bank rate continues to drop so the consumers once again can have this developing feeling of confidence overtake them and that they will continue to purchase durables in the fashion as they were over the last two months.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about actual over actual, not actual over budgeted amount.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister now concede that our weak retail sector in Manitoba is as a result of very high unemployment levels, 52,000 last month, coupled with lagging wage increases in this province, where we rated nine out of 10 provinces in 1991? Consumer spending cannot expand if household income is not growing.

Is this yet another sign of poor economic performance in Manitoba under this government and the failure of the policies of the Minister of Finance?