VOL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, March 27, 1992

The House met at 10 a.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of F. DeVilla, Priscilla Calixto, Linda Quinto and others urging the government to request the federal Minister of Employment and Immigration to fully reinstate the Foreign Domestic Program and that the government be requested to report to the Legislature regarding progress in that regard.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated. (Mr. Chomiak)

* * *

I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett)

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

* * *

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT of the 53 aboriginal languages in Canada, it has been predicted that only three will survive beyond the year 2010 unless action is taken now; and

The Abinochi‑Zhawayndakozihwin Ojibwa nursery program which began in 1985 has taught children between the ages of three and five the Ojibwa language, culture and history; and

The Abinochi preschool language program seeks to promote and strengthen aboriginal languages and has been praised as a model by groups across Canada who have requested its curriculum; and

The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that maintaining aboriginal languages is vital to rebuilding the culture lost through years of colonization; and

The provincial minister's working group studying the school recommended that long‑term funding be found for the school; and

The provincial government recognized the importance of the school in 1991 when it committed $64,000 to the school that year; and

The provincial government has chosen in 1992 to not commit any funds to the program this year threatening the future of the school, while it is increasing funding to private elite schools by 9 percent after giving them an increase last year of 11 percent.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider funding the Abinochi preschool program at a level which will ensure that the school continues to operate. (Mr. Hickes)

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT of the 53 aboriginal languages in Canada, it has been predicted that only three will survive beyond the year 2010 unless action is taken now; and

The Abinochi‑Zhawayndakozihwin Ojibwa nursery program which began in 1985 has taught children between the ages of three and five the Ojibwa language, culture and history; and

The Abinochi preschool language program seeks to promote and strengthen aboriginal languages and has been praised as a model by groups across Canada who have requested its curriculum; and

The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that maintaining aboriginal languages is vital to rebuilding the culture lost through years of colonization; and

The provincial minister's working group studying the school recommended that long‑term funding be found for the school; and

The provincial government recognized the importance of the school in 1991 when it committed $64,000 to the school that year; and

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report for 1990‑91 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; the Annual Report for 1990‑91 for the Multiculturalism Secretariat; and the Annual Report for 1990‑91 for the Women's Directorate.

* (1005)

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning from the Elmwood High School 15 English language students. They are under the direction of Shirley Anderson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer).

On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this morning.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Abitibi‑Price‑Pine Falls

EmployeeOwned Proposal

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I am sure all members of the House have been following the issue of the financing of the Olympia and York situation, the fact that a company that has owned resources and owns resources in Manitoba, Abitibi‑Price, has expanded itself in such a way that they are in a severe cash flow. They have expanded the resource industry over to real estate and into real estate in the United States and now the Canary Wharf in London.

Of course, the financial situation of this company is a serious concern to Manitobans, because Abitibi‑Price is in a very crucial state, a very critical state with the ownership issue, with the changing of their plants to Alabama and the possibility of leaving Manitoba with a community‑owned operation.

I would ask the government: Has the price of the company gone down dramatically, or the operation at Pine Falls, from the $55 million, which all of us agree is outrageous to begin with, from the Reichmanns? What is the status of the negotiations dealing with the Abitibi‑Price operation and the community‑owned proposal?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the member will know, I have been occupied with a First Ministers' meeting on the economy, and so I cannot speak about events within the last week or so.

I do know that there has been continuing dialogue and discussion in a variety of ways with respect to this issue. It has been a matter that has been before the Economic Development Board of Cabinet. The management‑backed, worker‑backed buyout has been the primary area in which we have been working, and all of us have been hopeful that through a variety of sources of funding this package could be put together.

I do not have any recent briefings on what the change in price might be for the shares and the assets of the company, but I do know that those who are attempting to buy the company out remain optimistic that they can put together a package that will allow it to remain in operation in Manitoba.

* (1010)

De-inking Plant

Feasibility Study

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the government has commissioned last year feasibility studies on the operation. The government also has a report from the Clean Environment Commission dealing with some possible limitations of the fibre area to the government.

Did the government look at and has it reviewed the feasibility of a de‑inking plant for the operation at Pine Falls to not only deal with the recommendations before it in terms of fibre limitations, but also to deal with the great number of challenges that we have in our environment and the great number of challenges we have in many of our urban centres of landfill sites that are going to be filled up? Has the government looked at the feasibility of a de‑inking plant as a possible creative way of dealing with the issue of jobs and the environment which is before the government today?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): As a matter of fact, from Day One that has been one of the proposals that the government has expressed interest in with respect to that particular plant. We have indicated that if part of the new ownership and the restructuring of the plant included a de‑inking facility, that that would fit in with our objectives from an environmental and recycling side and that we would be very receptive to looking at that as part of a package that did involve some provincial contribution.

That remains to be the case, and it certainly is on the table as far as we are concerned.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we would encourage the government in their feasibility and in the great amount of dollars and jobs that are at stake right now in a very, very serious crisis situation.

A further question to the First Minister on the issue of a de‑inking plant and the feasibility study and the Clean Environment Commission report that the government has before it: Has the government put the whole issue of a de‑inking plant on the table with the ministers responsible for Western Diversification?

The whole purpose of Western Diversification, initially stated, was to take western Canada from the old technology to the new technology. Often we have been somewhat skeptical of some announcements that have seemed to us to be more political than they have been to value‑added jobs in the new 1990s and 21st Century in terms of the economy. There have been some good announcements and there have been some questionable announcements.

Has the government placed this whole issue before Western Diversification? Does it have support from the lead minister in Manitoba, the federal Minister Epp, and can we see federal‑provincial negotiations dealing with de‑inking and dealing with the Abitibi‑Price community‑based takeover?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that I have not been the lead minister on this, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has, I will have to take the precise details of that question under notice. I know that it would be up to the people who are putting forward a proposal to deal with Western Diversification on this matter, and I would have to find out just exactly what discussions have taken place with respect to that.

Community Colleges

Funding

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I would like to put the questions to the Minister of Education that I tried to put yesterday. The unemployment rate for youth in Manitoba is now almost 17 percent, and we have 3,000 more unemployed young people than we did last year at this time and, yet, our community college budget is less than it was two years ago, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister tell the House how many new, additional places she will be making available at Red River Community College this year for those Manitobans?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we have in fact increased our new programming at all three of the colleges. I read some of those new programs into the record, and it will result in over 600 new positions.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm that last year, when her government reduced Red River Community programs by over 500 places, she made a very serious mistake?

Every one of those programs today, from secretarial certificate to autobody repair to the piping trades and power engineering has a waiting list until at least September 1993, and I would like to table a list of 24 courses which have waiting lists.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, we did in fact ask for some redirection in the community colleges last year, and even last year this government also provided new programming into the community colleges, both at Red River, Assiniboine Community College and Keewatin Community College. We have added to those new programs this year and we have expanded previous programs that are already operating at the college.

* (1015)

Alternatives

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Will the minister tell the House then what she tells those young people on those waiting lists who have nowhere to go? Is the answer a private school at double or triple the cost to students, or is it social assistance?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Of course we are concerned about young people and adults who wish to study at community colleges, but this government has, and I will say again, increased the programming last year, increased the programming this year, and we have other training opportunities which this government has been supporting, including Workforce 2000.

Student Social Assistance

Categorization

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, social assistance recipients in this province are divided into two categories. There is one which encompasses all recipients except two groups, students and those who have been on social assistance for less than three months. These two groups received less money than the regular.

Would the Minister of Family Services please tell the House why students on social allowance are put in a separate and lower category than others on social allowance, and can he explain how this jibes with the commitment made by his First Minister earlier this week to remove disincentives to work and training?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Manitoba, I believe, is the only jurisdiction that provides social allowance benefits for students who are in the work force part of the time and then back to various training institutions and schools. The program has been in place for a long time, and we make adjustments to those programs and to the regular Social Allowances Program on a regular basis as we are able to put the resources into those programs.

Regulation Changes

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): They certainly do make changes to the system, but it is not often to put new resources into the system.

On April 1, 1992, this government has passed a regulation to be effective on April Fools' Day, which can only make me believe that the minister thinks he can fool all of the people some of the time. He has in fact increased the amount of time that a social recipient will be left at the lower category from three months to six months.

Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House how he considers that a progressive move for these recipients?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): The member indicates that we are not putting new resources into social allowances, and that is absolutely untrue. We have increased the social allowances this year by some 3.6 percent. We have also created a new program this year for the disabled, and we have flowed the tax credits on a more timely basis and adjusted the liquid assets level.

We have done a tremendous amount of reform and put a lot of new resources into the budget for this particular year. Even in very difficult times, we have been able to create a new program for social allowance recipients who are disabled.

On the one hand, we are sometimes criticized by the other opposition party for putting too much money into social allowances and not into the other areas of this department.

We have increased the budget for Family Services this year by some 8.7 percent, the highest increase across government.

Mrs. Carstairs: Let me read from the government's own regulation impact statement, which says: It is estimated that the Social Allowances Program will save approximately 105,000 in 1992‑93 as a result of this change in regulation.

Can the Minister of Family Services tell us why they have chosen to increase and improve their bottom line while forcing those who live in poverty to live on less of a bottom line?

Mr. Gilleshammer: This budget shows an increase of some $41 million to social allowance recipients, and we have had to make some adjustments within the program. The adjustments also include some tremendous increases.

If you look at the increases that we have given relative to other provinces, in Manitoba the basic social allowances are increasing by 3.6 percent. Even in difficult times like this at a cost of $8 million to government, we have created a new program.

So let not the member indicate that we are giving less in the total Social Allowances Program. We in fact are putting $41 million more into social allowances this year.

Economic Growth

Government Policy

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

We have now some new figures from Statistics Canada on the loss of people from this province to other provinces. In fact, the report shows that since this government assumed office in the spring of 1988, Manitoba has suffered a net loss of over 35,000 people through interprovincial migration. It is almost the size of the city of Brandon. It is a clear indication of the lack of jobs in this province under this government. In fact, we have fewer jobs today in Manitoba than we had in 1988 when this government assumed office.

Will this Minister of Finance, after five budgets, now acknowledge that his economic policies have failed and that Manitoba's economy has stagnated with this administration?

* (1020)

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, without accepting any of the preamble of the member across the way, I would think that the member opposite would be proud of the achievements of this government over the last three or four years in holding the budget line down to a level where taxes have not increased, where expenditures across government have been amongst the lowest, if not the lowest, in Canada over the last four or five years, so much so, Mr. Speaker, that we have not had to resort in our last budget, as some other provinces which I will not name in this question, to increased taxes. I would think that the member for Brandon East would be very satisfied with that.

Now the member has put the focus on population. I would say to him that maintaining low increases in government expenditures leading to reduction in taxes for the most part will begin to pay back.

Mr. Speaker, we are on the right track, we know we are on the right track. We talked to the Premiers of different provincial stripes from Atlantic Canada. We know they are on the right track; they know we are on the right track.

It is only the member for Brandon East who would want to take a different track. We took his track eight years ago and all it did was increase our debt to $10 billion.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, we have been on this track for five budgets now‑‑five budgets, 1‑2‑3‑4‑5.

Interprovincial Migration

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Will this minister explain precisely to this House how his economic policies are going to be effective in view of the fact that the rate of population loss in the last quarter of 1991 of last year was the highest in the country? That is, in the last three months of 1991, we lost people at a faster rate than any other single province in this country.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer the member to the budget paper, pages 12 and 13, Appendix B. There is a 10‑year ranking of population statistics in the province. I would point out to the member that in 1983‑84 the population of the province was 1,046,000 and that over the last 10 years that number has grown slowly, sometimes more quickly, sometimes more slowly, but always growing, forecast to be at the end of '92‑93 1.1 million people.

So growth in Manitoba continues along the same path as it has been basically over the last 25 years, slow but trending upward, and I say to the members, that is the character of this province. It is the way it has always been, and it is the way it will continue to be for years to come.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, it always has not been that way. In some years we have actually gained people through interprovincial migration. In fact, in last year‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, my last question is: Exactly, precisely, will this minister tell this House: What is his government going to do to create more jobs and stem the outward flow of people? I say that because last year alone we lost over 7,600 people through interprovincial migration, a net‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

* (1025)

Mr. Manness: That is a good question, Mr. Speaker, particularly for the member coming from Brandon.

What we are going to do is continue to follow the same path we have in keeping down government spending and keeping taxes such that the city of Brandon, which the member represents a portion, will be able to take a booklet like the budget and show how they rank vis‑a‑vis other competitive centres, particularly U.S. centres, whether it is Fargo or Minneapolis.

They will be able to point out‑‑and I am talking now about the city of Brandon‑‑on a competitive basis, when one looks at state taxes versus provincial taxes, that they are in a very highly favoured position in a competitive sense. I would think the member for Brandon East would want to take this document and would want to help those people in Brandon who care about its economic future, try and bring business to Brandon so that indeed the province as a whole and Brandon will benefit through it. I would think there is good news here and he would want to help share it.

Selkirk School of Psychiatric Nursing

Closure Postponement

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Last year, without consultation, the Minister of Health announced that the 70‑year‑old School of Psychiatric Nursing in Selkirk was being closed after repeatedly being recognized for its work. Now we find out the minister is planning on spending over $400,000 on a study of psychiatric nursing training after the fact.

Will the minister postpone closing the school until this study is finished?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Dewar: If Selkirk closes this year, this minister will not be providing nursing graduates until 1999.

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Mr. Dewar: Why does this minister not accept the recommendations of the Selkirk Chamber of Commerce, the Selkirk Council, thousands of area residents, the association of psychiatric nursing, who have all requested this minister to consult with the public prior to the closure of the school?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that considerable thought went into the decision of last budget.

It was not a unilateral decision which led to the closure of the registered Psychiatric School of Nursing in Portage la Prairie some seven years ago, without any consultation, without any plan for the future.

As I have indicated consistently to my honourable friend, and I know he does not want to hear good news, but I have told him since the day of the budget announcement last year about the consolidation of the two schools of psychiatric nursing to Brandon, that it will be predicated upon the development of an enhanced education program in Brandon for psychiatric nursing, not only involving the two‑year current program, but a four‑year baccalaureate program, which will aid us in accomplishing the mental health reforms to the community that we so much desire.

It is certainly an enhancement of psychiatric nursing in the province of Manitoba, building on our strengths, building on the strengths of Brandon.

I note with interest the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) has yet to thank me for this bold initiative move.

Brandon School of Psychiatric Nursing

Closure

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Selkirk residents do not trust this minister. They do not trust this government, Mr. Speaker.

Why does this minister repeatedly claim in this Chamber that Brandon would expand with the closure of Selkirk, when it has now been revealed that the Brandon school of nursing will also be shut down?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what my honourable friend bases his information on, but it is inaccurate, if I heard him correctly, that the Brandon school of nursing will be closing. That is inaccuracy of the type that I did not even think the member for Selkirk could bring to this Chamber.

Let me reiterate and let me try to make it as clear and as simple as I possibly can so my honourable friend from Selkirk will understand. We are building upon the strengths of psychiatric nursing training in the province of Manitoba by two steps: firstly, the consolidation of the two‑year diploma program of psychiatric nursing to Brandon, the announcement today of the $433,000 commitment to develop not only a revamped two‑year program for psychiatric nursing; in addition, a four‑year baccalaureate prepared program for psychiatric nursing, Mr. Speaker, to fit in the changing dynamic of personnel requirements for the delivery of mental health services in a reformed mental health system announced earlier this year with significantly increased emphasis on community‑based care, something that all members of this House have bought into, with the obvious exception of my honourable friend from Selkirk.

*(1030)

Francophone Schools Governance

Legal Opinion

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le president, ma question est pour le premier ministre.

Face a la regrettable annonce faite hier par la ministre de l'Education au sujet de la gestion scolaire qui non seulement porte tellement a confusion, mais surtout qui ne semble pas repondre du tout aux attentes des Franco‑manitobains et Franco‑manitobaines et, reconnaissant le fait que deux juristes constitutionnalistes ont deja indique aux organismes Franco‑manitobains que le processus de la mise en place des structures de la division scolaire francophone tel qu'annonce par la ministre semble etre en conflit direct avec les droits garantis par l'article 23 de la Charte canadienne des droits et libertes, ma question: Le premier ministre pourrait‑il indiquer a cette chambre quels avis legaux a‑t‑il recus a savoir si la proposition d'implantation de la gestion scolaire telle qu' annoncee hier par la ministre de l'Education est conforme a l'article 23 de la Charte des droits et libertes?

(Translation)

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the First Minister. In the light of the regrettable announcement made yesterday by the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) in regard to schools governance, which not only leads to great confusion but which above all does not seem in any way to respond to the expectations of Franco‑Manitobans, and recognizing the fact that two constitutional lawyers have already indicated to Franco‑Manitoban organizations that the process for setting up the structures of the Francophone school division, as announced by the Minister, seems to be in direct conflict with the rights guaranteed under Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, my question is: Could the First Minister indicate to this House what legal opinions he has received as to whether the proposal for implementation of schools governance, as announced yesterday by the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), is in accordance with Section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank my honourable colleague from St. Boniface for the question. I might say that the proposal with respect to French language schools governance is one that is the result of extensive public review and extensive consultations.

The member may know that after the Mahe case was decided in the Supreme Court, Manitoba took very prompt action in appointing the Gallant commission to review and bring forward recommendations for governance structures and models that might be appropriate for French language education in Manitoba, in accordance with the rather flexible response that the Supreme Court had in leaving open the range of options in the governance model to Manitoba to decide.

After the Gallant commission report, there were continuing discussions within the Francophone community, with parents who were on both sides of the issue, I might say: parents who want a particular type of governance structure, parents who want choice with respect to governance structure and acknowledge the Supreme Court's decision at the same time. Within the context of those further discussions, a model was developed in full consultation, I might say, with the Constitutional Law Branch of the Province of Manitoba. After the model was developed and all the various legal and practical implementation ramifications were assessed, the model that was announced yesterday was arrived at.

We have every confidence that it will meet the test of Section 23 and the Supreme Court ruling on the Mahe case with respect to ensuring the rights of Francophone parents to have a governance model for their schools.

Legal Opinion Request

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Ma question est au premier ministre. Est‑ce que le premier ministre pourra deposer en chambre aujourd' hui les avis legaux qu'il a obtenus du departement constitutionnel de la province?

(Translation)

My question is to the First Minister. Could the First Minister table in the House today the legal opinions that he has obtained from the Constitutional Law Branch of this province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I might tell the member for St. Boniface, given that even from his preamble there is an indication that there might be challenge brought to the province, obviously our legal position and our legal opinions will remain the opinions of the government.

That is normally the case. That is the case because we obviously want to ensure that the validity of our actions can be defended in court, in any court, including the Supreme Court, and we are confident that the opinions that we have confirm our ability to make the decision that we have made in this case.

School Division

Boundary Review

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le president, ma question est pour la ministre de l'Education.

Pourquoi avoir abandonne la revision des frontieres des divisions scolaires quand la question de la gestion scolaire francophone aurait fort bien pu etre englobee et traitee de facon egale aux autres divisions scolaires existantes presentement?

(Translation)

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. What is the reason for having abandoned the review of school division boundaries when the matter of Francophone schools governance could very well have been incorporated into it and dealt with in the same way as the other school divisions that currently exist?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): The issue of Francophone governance is, as I said yesterday, a new issue in Manitoba, a precedent‑setting action. We need the implementation team to go out into the communities to determine those community areas who would like to be a part of the governance model.

We need to do one thing at a time to initiate a school boundaries review at the same time as trying to implement Francophone governance, which we realize is a step‑by‑step process. It is well laid out. A step‑by‑step process will be completed with the transfer of students, the board active in '93, the transfer of students in '94. At that time, we will then know the effect on present school divisions.

Independent Schools

Funding Formula

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education, and it is fairly straightforward.

Will the minister confirm‑‑[interjection]

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Kildonan has the floor.

Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It applies to Manitoba and it involves simple arithmetic. Will the minister confirm that she announced a $2‑million increase to private schools yesterday, which will bring the total increase to $20 million, which is a 9 percent funding increase to private schools over last year's increase?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure how the honourable member arrives at his arithmetic. I am giving the equivalent increase that we give to the public school system and the addition, in accordance with the letter of comfort, that agreement of phase‑in; the figures do not add up to 9 percent. In that area it adds up to approximately slightly over 8 percent, and then there will be, of course, additions for increased enrollment.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for clarifying that the increase is only 8 percent, which is only less than three times what public schools get.

Will the minister confirm that two particular schools, St. John's‑Ravenscourt and Balmoral Hall, will again get 25 percent of that increase similar to what they got last year? A quarter of that total increase will go to St. John's‑Ravenscourt and Balmoral Hall.

Mrs. Vodrey: I do not have with me the figures that those two schools will be getting but I can tell the member, last year, in '91‑92, more money flowed to independent schools in the constituencies for the members across the way than the total amount of the money that flowed into the constituencies on this side.

Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister undertake to again talk to the separate schools and try to pe