LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Monday, April 6, 1992
The
House met at 1:30 a.m.
Mr.
Clerk (William Remnant):
It is my duty to inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr.
Speaker, and therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask the Deputy
Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) to take the Chair.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING PETITIONS
Ms.
Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I beg to present the petition of Jennifer
Dubienski, Debbie Clement, Carol Pawluk and others requesting the Minister of
Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of
Ms.
Becky Barrett (
Mr.
Daryl Reid (Transcona): I
beg to present the petition of Dawn Thompson, Royden L. Walsh, Paul Robillard
and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament
of
Mr.
George Hickes (Point Douglas): I beg to present the petition of Patricia
Harder, John Sinclair, Steven Gabriel and others requesting that the government
show its strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering
reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction
and implementing a separate and parallel justice system.
Mr.
Conrad Santos (Broadway): I
beg to present the petition of Charles Toop, Alison Stanwick, Cornelia
Vandenberg and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon
the Parliament of
Madam
Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay): I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the
House and complies with the rules (by leave).
Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?
The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
THAT locally controlled public housing with
elected and appointed board members encourages democratic and accountable decision
making; and
Many housing authority boards included tenants
on the board of directors; and
Volunteers serving on boards made worthwhile
contributions to local housing authorities by serving their tenants, their community
and in saving taxpayers' money; and
With no consultation, the provincial
government fired 600 volunteer board members, abolished 98 local housing
authorities, laid off staff and centralized purchasing and administration;
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislature of the
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I have reviewed the petition of the honourable
member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies
with the rules. Is it the will of the
House to have the petition read?
The petition of the undersigned residents of
the
WHEREAS there has been increased provincial
involvement in matters of immigration settlement, English as a Second Language programs,
and other immigration matters; and
WHEREAS the Department of External Affairs has
made a decision to discontinue the practice of processing applications of
domestic workers under rules that would give them the right to apply for
permanent status under the Foreign Domestic Program; and
WHEREAS this decision will have a negative
impact upon both employers and domestics; and
WHEREAS domestic workers perform a valuable
child care service in today's labour market, especially in two‑income families;
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that
the Legislative Assembly of
MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon.
Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): I would like to table, Madam Deputy Speaker,
the Annual Report of the
Hon.
Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a ministerial
statement.
It is with great pleasure that I rise before
the members today and, on behalf of the province and citizens of
I am certain those who followed the progress
of each of the rinks throughout the week would agree that the
I would ask all members to join me in
extending congratulations to the Laliberte and Peters rinks on their excellent
performances throughout the year. Their
exciting play has been a pleasure to watch.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr.
Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is with great
pleasure that we on our side extend our congratulations to Vic Peters and his
rink, Connie Laliberte and her rink for their fine performance at the recent
world curling championships.
We had the pleasure of watching them over the
past week with great anticipation for their performance throughout the week,
and I am sure, along with the rest of
Mr.
Reg Alcock (Osborne): Madam
Deputy Speaker, I would simply like to join with the others in this House in
congratulating Connie and Vic. I had an
opportunity to be part of their sendoff at the
Introduction of Guests
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw
the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have
with us this afternoon, President Rod MacCrae and other members of the St.
Andrews Society of Winnipeg representing the MacCrae Clan, Douglas Clan,
MacIntosh Clan, MacFarland Clan, MacGregor Clan, Fraser Clan, Ross Clan and MacPherson
Clan.
On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome
you here today.
Additionally, I would like to draw the
attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's loge to my left, where we have
with us this afternoon the former member for Radisson.
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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Health Care Facilities
Bed Closures
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
I refer the House back to April of 1988,
specifically Tuesday, April 28, 1988.
The Premier said, a Tory government would not close any hospital beds
until a thorough review of the health care system is completed. Later, the Minister of Health tried to
clarify that commitment by saying that there would be no bed closures for
budgetary reasons. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker,
we have received a number of letters recently and calls from patients of
several different hospitals about being kept in emergency room hallways on a
stretcher for periods of five days and even up to 10 days.
We want to know from the Premier why his
government is breaking an election promise, why this Premier is compromising patient
care by ordering
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to this
afternoon's debate in Estimates, because I know that you will not allow me the
opportunity for a full answer to a rather long preamble, et cetera.
I know my honourable friend is wanting to
discuss health care, the provision of services, the funding of the system. My honourable friend wants to discuss it in
terms of system‑wide change and reform, which from time to time, Madam
Deputy Speaker, even members of the New Democratic Party have acknowledged is going
to happen. Even from time to time,
although not publicly, my honourable friends in the New Democratic Party
acknowledge that the system will change and change significantly away from institutional
care to community‑based care, such as is happening from time to time when
my honourable friends in private have the honesty to discuss the rather
significant and radical changes happening in provinces currently governed by
their political soul mates.
Madam Deputy Speaker, let me deal with the
issue that my honourable friend wants to talk about in terms of a plan and understanding
of the system and where the system can change to meet a number of agendas that
Canadians have put before all of our elected representatives, whether it be in
What we are doing in
I look forward to furthering my answer later
on this afternoon, but certainly this afternoon, in Estimates where I know I
will hear from the wisdom of my honourable friend as to how the system should
change.
Funding
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
I would like to ask the Premier, since the
minister in this House stated that hospitals would be getting in the neighbourhood
of 4 percent to 5 percent increases in their budgets, yet hospitals are telling
us a different story, will the Premier confirm that the
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, I know my honourable
friend wants to always describe increase in funding as cutbacks. That is sort of the new nuance of language that
New Democrats in opposition use. New
Democrats in opposition call a $100‑plus million dollars of increased
funding to health care in this year's budget, a cutback from opposition in
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(1345)
The budgetary process that the hospitals are
going through is as it has been for years.
They make requests of government.
We cannot accede to the dollars they ask for. Therefore, they are provided funding at a
level which the taxpayers of
Madam Deputy Speaker, with a little patience
from my honourable friend, we can deal with that issue when we get to the hospital
line with full detail, full discussion and full suggestion as to how to do
things better as the New Democrats would no doubt wish to do.
Health Care Facilities
Bed Closures
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
We have been trying for days to find out what
is the exact nature of the government‑directed bed and budget reduction
for each hospital in the
What is the policy of this government on bed
closures in our hospitals?
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, with all due respect to
my honourable friend, my honourable friend knows full well that there were no
bed closures during our first term of government, 1988‑1990, for
budgetary purposes. My honourable friend
knows that. My honourable friend cannot
accept that because during the time when she was around government, they ordered
the closure of 120‑plus beds for budgetary reasons.
Also at that time when my honourable friend
sat in that Treasury Board‑‑not Treasury Board but in cabinet,
there was a policy put in place by the New Democratic Party under Howard Pawley. It said, there shall be no deficits in the
hospital budgets.
The first piece of advice that the Deputy
Minister, Mr. Reg Edwards, gave me in May of 1988, when I was sworn in as
Minister of Health and had my first briefing meeting, his first question was,
do you intend to change the no‑deficit policy put in place by the
previous government. My answer was, no.
My answer is consistent today, but not
according to my honourable friend from the New Democrats who when in
Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the kind of
classic hypocrisy and flip‑flop that New Democrats practise from
opposition and claim they can solve all the problems, but in government unilaterally
cut beds, reduce budgets, et cetera, a two‑faced approach to health care
policy that Manitobans are wise to.
Funding
Mr.
Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam
Deputy Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. Last Thursday, over 500 very angry and
frustrated people attended the first ever public meeting in
Meanwhile, a petition has been signed by over
5,000 people in Westman, representing over 84 communities in southwestern
A straightforward question, Madam Deputy
Speaker, on behalf of over 5,000 citizens and taxpayers of southwestern
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not think my
honourable friend the member for Brandon East would have the audacity to ask
such a question, because what my honourable friend is asking this government to
do is to reverse the New Democratic Party policy, put in place when he was in cabinet
under Howard Pawley, of no deficits at Brandon General Hospital or any other hospital. That was a policy put in place by the New
Democrats. Now from opposition, my
honourable friend the New Democrat from Brandon East, is saying, oh, reverse
that; cover deficits.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to read from a
January 1987 letter from the Honourable Len Evans, senior cabinet minister in Brandon
and Westman area. First paragraph: I would like to point out that when we
subtract the 31 closed beds, closed by the NDP‑‑in
parentheses: mine added, the number of
beds available at Brandon Cornwallis residence is 253, which is still
considerably higher than the 200 beds needed to meet MHSC guidelines.
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The second paragraph of this letter, Madam
Deputy Speaker: You should understand that the decision to close beds at
My honourable friend, when he was in
government, forced them to close beds because of a deficit and now in
opposition says we should give them the money‑‑what hypocrisy.
Mr.
Leonard Evans: I have a
supplementary question, but I had hoped that I would have received the answers
for‑‑
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
The honourable member for Brandon East to put his question now.
Mr.
Leonard Evans: On behalf
of these people I am asking, 5,000‑plus people from Westman which
includes just about every constituency that is represented on that side, will
the minister review the operation of the
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Order,
please. The question has been put.
Mr.
Orchard: Madam
Deputy Speaker, what I am going to do to those 5,000 petitioners, should I
receive the petition, is send them the letter sent to them in 1987 by the
Honourable Len Evans, because it actually deals with the issue, not honestly
but at least openly.
The second thing I want to do to my honourable
friend, for my honourable friend‑‑I do not do things to him‑‑I
want to read an answer from a Health minister, a colleague of mine across
My honourable friend has selective amnesia
when he is in opposition. He goes
underground when they cut beds‑‑back in his days around cabinet
responsibility‑‑and then comes out of the bushes now saying we
should cover deficits. Is that a
reversal of the policy because, Madam Deputy Speaker, the policy stands: no
deficits to be funded by government in the hospitals of
Labour Adjustment Strategy
Mr.
Leonard Evans (Brandon East): A minister of broken promises‑‑
Madam
Deputy Speaker:
Order. Does the honourable member
for Brandon East have a final supplementary question?
Mr.
Leonard Evans: I have
another very serious question and I hope we will get some answers, because they
have not for those 5,000 people yet. We
are still waiting for an answer. On
behalf of the workers, will the minister and this government commit some funds
to allow the laid off nurses to take training for other health care
occupations?
There is an industrial adjustment committee
looking at alternative employment for the affected nurses, but there are not enough
funds‑‑
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Order,
please. The question has been put.
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope my honourable
friend shows up in Estimates this afternoon because I have a lot more
information for him.
In 1987‑88, the last year my honourable
friend was around cabinet, the revenues of the
Within that budget‑‑[interjection]
Madam
Deputy Speaker:
Order, please.
Mr.
Orchard: Madam
Deputy Speaker, I am going to recommend rabies shots for the member for Brandon
East.
Point of Order
Mr.
Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, one would be tempted to
respond, especially from that minister, in kind, but one should recognize that
is not parliamentary. Quite frankly, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are growing
increasingly frustrated by the fact that this minister will not give answers, instead
totally avoids the legitimate question being asked by the member for
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Madam
Deputy Speaker:
Order, please. The honourable
government House leader on the same point of order.
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):
On the same point of order, Madam Deputy
Speaker, I have looked at the list of unparliamentary words and certainly the
word referenced by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) is not on that list.
I would ask you to bring the opposition House
leader to order because under the guise of a point of order, he himself engaged
in a tirade on the Minister of Health, and I would say that certainly is out of
order.
Madam
Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson did not have
a point of order. However, I would
remind all honourable members to address each other courteously in the House.
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Mr.
Orchard: Madam
Deputy Speaker, I am neither a medical doctor nor a veterinarian. I apologize to my honourable friend the member
for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans).
North American Free Trade Agreement
Water Sales
Mr.
Reg Alcock (Osborne):
Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for
Trade.
In reviewing the draft agreement for the North
American free trade agreement that is being proposed, I discovered in Article 1401,
a provision that is not in the bracketed text but is in the already‑agreed‑to
portions of the agreement that suggest that we will allow the transportation of
materials other than energy that require transportation by pipeline.
I would like to know from the minister whether
or not in his meetings in
Hon.
Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam
Deputy Speaker, at the last Trade ministers' meeting in
As I have indicated in this House on a couple
of occasions, we are in the process of completing a detailed review of the text
to do an all‑encompassing response to several concerns that have come to
light as a result of reviewing the draft text that we currently have a copy
of. Certainly, the honourable member raises
one further point that merits part of that review.
Mr.
Alcock: Madam
Deputy Speaker, the minister has had a couple of weeks now and had officials
working on it for a couple of weeks. I
wonder if he can tell us whether or not their review confirms that there is an
intention to ship water south of the border.
Mr. Stefanso