LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, April 8, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jim Silver, Deborah Smith, Tim Sale and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gwen Sveinson, Tracey Haarsma, Darcie Andres and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Raymond E. Sinclair, Walter G. Murdock, Oliver T. Flett and others requesting the government consider funding the Abinochi preschool program to ensure it continues to operate.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

       

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and

      The AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and

      The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self‑government and the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and

      The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self‑government and a separate and parallel justice system; and

      On January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and

      Despite the All‑Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system.

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      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

      The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon His Excellency Njuguna Mahugu, the high commissioner of Kenya to Canada.  On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon, Sir.

      Also with us this afternoon, in the Speaker's Gallery, is Mr. Colin Maxwell, who is executive director of the Canadian Wildlife Federation.  On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

      Seated with us this afternoon in the public gallery, from the Native Business Management Skills Program, we have 21 students. They are under the direction of Carolee Batycki.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).  On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Economic Growth

Government Strategy

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

      In November of 1990 and December of 1990 our Minister of Finance made glowing predictions through Hansard.  His words are all the way through Hansard predicting the recession is going to end; the recovery is just around the corner; the recession is over, Mr. Speaker.  Then, of course, came the spring of 1991, and we had the same glowing predictions from our Minister of Finance.  Happy days are here again; the recession is over; the recovery will take place; Manitoba will lead the Canadian recovery; Manitoba will lead the way out of the recession and into recovery.

      Again, in this last budget of 1992, we have the same familiar words from our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), whistling past the economic graveyard, slowly but surely:  a renewed sense of optimism is building in Manitoba and across Canada.  Well, Mr. Speaker, today we have the first verdict on the government's budget.  The Toronto Dominion Bank has now dealt with the growth rate of Manitoba and has downgraded their predictions for the growth rate of Manitoba from 2.4 percent to 1.7 percent for 1992, a decrease in growth of over 25 percent.

      My question to the Minister of Finance is:  What hope can he give the thousands of Manitobans that are unemployed and the growing thousands of people who are on social assistance in the province of Manitoba with these latest predictions?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Well, Mr. Speaker, I feel badly that the member has resorted once again to selectively quote information.  My budget, in the appendices of course, forecast growth in the province beyond 2 percent.  That was on the basis of an average of all the forecasters.  I am led to believe that there is some downgrading taking place across Canada by all the private forecasters.  Manitoba is a part of Canada. We are not immune from those general downtrending with respect to the private forecast.

      I would hope within the course of the next three or four weeks that I will have a revised number of the average of all the private forecasting that I can share with the member.  TD is the first.  I can indicate that there are significant changes going to come from the Conference Board in their estimates and forecasts, particularly as it deals with some of the Atlantic provinces.

      So I do not expect that Manitoba will be immune from that, and when we have those numbers compiled on average, I will share them with the members.

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Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, hopefully, the other forecasts will be more favourable to the province.

      The Minister of Finance is correct that the predictions are now being made not only for Manitoba, but also for Canada, predictions for Canada after the federal Conservative budget was produced in the country, a budget that was hailed by members opposite as a great Conservative budget for the people of this country.  We hailed it as another recessionary budget and depression budget for the people of this country.

      My question to the Minister of Finance is again the same question.  You told us two years ago that the recovery was around the corner.  You told us last year that we were going to lead the way out of the recession in Manitoba.  You told us two months ago that we were going to lead the way out of the recovery.  We now see that we are being downgraded even more than Canada in the province of Manitoba.

      What hope does this government have and what strategies does it have, except for being wrong on their predictions, what strategy do they have to get Manitobans working again and to get people off social assistance that are employable?

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, one thing when you make a prediction, it is almost 100 percent sure you are going to be wrong.  You are either going to miss it too high, or you are going too low.  I mean that is the nature of forecasting‑‑[interjection]  You would be 100 percent that way too.  Yes, everybody is.

      To answer the question, we have been watching very carefully as other provinces have brought down budgets across Canada.  We are very mindful of the fact that those provinces in Atlantic Canada have certainly followed along with what we have done here in Manitoba.  They have reduced taxes to the extent that they could.  They have tried to hold back expenditure growth.  They have tried to minimize their levels of deficits.

      I would say the only provinces in Canada that seem to be increasing taxes are B.C. to this point in time, and I forget the other one that is also contemplating.  Saskatchewan certainly is contemplating increasing taxes and also Ontario in a significant way.

      I say to the member that obviously we have a different philosophy here.  He wants this province to continue to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars in support of increased deficit. He wants us to continue to defer taxes, but taxes nevertheless, Mr. Speaker.  Right today one of the greatest handicaps to businesses who are creating jobs are the tax levels of this provinces vis‑a‑vis jurisdictions to the south.

      I would say to him, I would think that he would want us to do everything within our power to hold back government spending so that we could reduce even further the tax load, so that indeed people and entrepreneurs could come forward, create jobs and create the economic well‑being that he wishes and indeed the government of Manitoba wishes.  That is the only way.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I would suggest the Minister of Finance read the Provincial Auditor's report on year‑end statements for the last four years.  He will find we have gone from a $55‑million operating surplus in the financial affairs of the province to a $530‑million deficit, so he should not lecture members opposite on the financial situation of this province.  He should stop that kind of charade in this province.

      I would note that the province of British Columbia is predicted to have a 2.5 percent growth rate; Ontario is predicted to have 3 percent growth rate.  That means that there is going to be jobs created in those provinces, but more importantly, questions to the Minister of Finance.

      We have a major downgrading of our growth predictions for 1992.  That has major implications on the unemployment rates of this province.  It has major implications on the number of people on social assistance, a number that has necessitated a $90‑million increase in expenditures in two budgets for the many people who are employable on social assistance.  It will provide reduced revenue to the government, reduced opportunity for our people, reduced opportunities for our people who are requiring services.

      My question to the minister is:  Is he just going to talk about right and wrong predictions, or is he going to come in with a strategy to get Manitobans working again and getting people off the vicious cycle of social assistance for employable people?

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Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, I am not the one talking about forecasts.  It was the Leader of the Opposition who brought forward the forecast issue, very selectively, I might add.

      I would say to him, if he wants to look at the ranking, he will see that Manitoba is still relatively well positioned in the ranking, when you take into the account all of the private forecasts.  I say to the member, there are two choices here.  We can still follow the old NDP way of borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars, adding to the deficit, adding to ultimately the tax levy that has to be imposed upon individuals and on businesses in this country, destroying the desire and indeed the ability to try and create wealth, driving people out of this province, driving them to the welfare rolls.  The members opposite know the impact of their $500‑million and $600‑million deficits through the '80s.  They know that they have had more to do with the ill and the impact on taxes in this province than any other force.  I say to the members they are going to ultimately have to tell Manitobans which path they would follow.

      Mr. Speaker, I gather in their silence what they want is the government to borrow hundreds of millions of more dollars to add to the deficit increasing taxes along the line.

 

Health Care System

Anesthetist Review

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  We seem to be going from crisis to crisis in our health care system under this government.  Today we have learned that the situation facing the anesthetists in this province of Manitoba is explosive.  Two years ago this government promised to begin to deal with this situation facing anesthetists by studying the matter.

      A year ago they found themselves unhappy with that study and brought in outside consultants to study the matter.  That study was done about 10 months ago.  It was released on March 30 to CEOs and heads of departments in our urban hospitals, and then those hospitals were given 36 hours to roll back the sessional rates in the hospitals of Brandon, Grace, Misericordia and Victoria, and the hospitals of Seven Oaks and Concordia were given short notice that their contract, their special contract arrangements would end.

      I want to ask the minister if he will put these arbitrary, high‑handed decisions on hold until the community hospitals, until the professionals, until the anesthetists have had a chance to respond to the report, provide some input and give some advice to this government.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, in the initial stages of her preamble, I believe, was critical of the time in which it took us to come to some recommended solution to the difficult problem we have with the recruitment retention and rates of remuneration for anethesiologists in the province of Manitoba.

      I distinctly recall her being critical of it taking two years.  Now when we have a report which has been a substantial amount of time in its development, with wide discussion and consultation involvement of expertise, and we take action on that, my honourable friend says you are acting too quickly and you should study it some more.

      Mr. Speaker, the issue is very, very complex, and it has been two years in the making to come to those kinds of hopeful solutions that will work.  Unless my honourable friend has a suggestion on how better to resolve the problem, which I did not detect in that rather lengthy preamble, I am afraid I have to abide by the best advice we could obtain in almost two years of discussion, study and consultation around the issue.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister was:  Why, after spending two years studying this matter, did this minister and this government then give our urban hospitals 36 hours to respond to two serious situations, one, the rollback in obstetrical anesthesia sessional rates at Brandon, Misericordia, Victoria and Grace, 36 hours to Concordia to deal with the end of a special contract arrangement?  How could he have done it that way?  Could he not be decent‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, all of those institutions were part of the consultation process to understand the dynamics of the problem and to help create a solution.  I will admit that any solution offered by government around the sensitive area of compensation to physicians is never received with applause unless you pour more money at it.

      What we tried to do was arrive at the most reasoned solution possible, bringing together expert advice and consultation, work with the professionals, work with the facilities to come to a solution, which we asked the hospitals, yes, to implement very quickly, because we were under pressure from those same hospitals to come to a decision of government that they could implement.

      Mr. Speaker, unless my honourable friend has some solution, other than the one that was proposed, that is better and will solve the problem quicker, other than the traditional response of pour more money at the system, I suggest my honourable friend ought to read the report, consult carefully with the issue to make sure that she understands that we have probably arrived at the most reasoned solution to a difficult problem.

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Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  It is a very serious situation‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member kindly put your question, please.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  I want to ask the Minister of Health, what impact will this kind of policy of confrontation of this government have on patient care, have on needed surgery, have on services that people of Manitoba are relying on?  What kind of impact will this style of conflict and confrontation of the minister have on patient care?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the professionals who provide anesthesiology service will work with government as this solution hopefully resolves a number of outstanding issues.

      Secondly, I would hope that within the distribution mechanism that the MMA, as the union bargaining on behalf of all physicians, that distribution mechanism as we have tried to achieve for approximately three years with the MMA, would recognize a greater share of the pie to go to anesthesiologists who are relatively underpaid in the Manitoba context because of the distribution by their union representation organization, the MMA, and that some of the wealth, the $300 million that we put to the MMA for their membership might be redistributed to assist in solving the problem.

      Simply coming to government saying the solution we have arrived at is wrong, without a better one, is hardly appropriate in today's context, Mr. Speaker.

 

Misericordia Hospital

Emergency Ward Closure

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

      On January 15 of this year, the Minister of Health issued a news release about the Urban Hospital Council, which he established in 1991.  The minister's release said that the Urban Hospital Council had approved the recommendation to close the emergency ward of Misericordia Hospital from 10 p.m. to 8 a.m. However, this recommendation was directly contradicted by his own group, and I will table the minutes of that meeting that took place on February 6.  The decision was made on the 15th, that is what he said.

      Mr. Speaker, the working group said that it was opposed to the closing of the Misericordia emergency ward, and it said that many of the recommendations, and I quote, had been made with inadequate statistics.

      Can the Minister of Health tell us‑‑according to this group, his own group, the decision is not medically sound, it is not financially sound‑‑why he is proceeding with this recommendation?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, when I held the press conference with the Urban Hospital Council in January, some of the examples of issues‑‑well, all of the issues being studied were laid out.  One of the issues that was laid out was the closure of emergency departments from, I think, it is 10 p.m. to 8 a.m.  Even one hospital was suggested to undertake that.

      That recommendation has come in and is before the Urban Hospital Council.  Now the normal process‑‑and I simply indicate to my honourable friend that this is one of the decisions that I hope the Urban Hospital Council will advance as a recommendation, one way or another, in the very near future, but the process is not complete.  I have not been asked by the Urban Hospital Council to accept or to make any decision on closure and operation of emergency departments in the city of Winnipeg from the Urban Hospital Council, Mr. Speaker.  Now, when that recommendation comes to me, I will deal with it expeditiously.

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Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, we have said many times that we will help the minister on health care reform, and this decision by his own group is not medically sound and not financially sound.

      Can the minister tell this House today, according to his own judgment, does he still favour this decision or not?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to my honourable friend, that is exactly the kind of process that we put those recommended courses of actions through at the Urban Hospital Council.  They are circulated back to the respective hospitals.

      The feedback on the feasibility of any recommended course of action is given to the Urban Hospital Council.  If in their expert opinion it will work, I would suspect they will pass that recommendation on for implementation, for consideration of implementation to myself.  Government ultimately will make that decision.

      Now if as my honourable friend says, the experts in the system question the medical effectiveness of that decision or its cost, then I would think the Urban Hospital Council would be very cautious in making that kind of a recommendation to government as government would be in accepting it, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister make a promise in this House that in future such a major decision must be released in this House by the minister, not by us?

Mr. Orchard:  I hate to use farmer vernacular, but my honourable friend has the cart before the horse, because I do not know how many times I have to tell my honourable friend that the Urban Hospital Council has not recommended a decision on emergency ward or emergency department hours of operation‑‑period and paragraph.

      One of the recommendations from the study group was to consider closing.  That has been through that consultation process that was just urged upon me by the first opposition party.  Mr. Speaker, the essence of that consultation will guide the Urban Hospital Council to a recommendation to be made to me, I hope, in the near future.  When that is given to me, I will gladly, as I indicated in Estimates yesterday and the day before, share it with my honourable friend.

 

Dutch Elm Disease Program

Provincial Funding

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

      The City of Winnipeg program for Dutch elm disease control aims to limit the annual loss rate of elms to less than 2 percent of the total.  It is a sensible policy, and I believe it is one that the minister shares.  Together the city and the province have had some success in this.  In 1989, provincial funding of $700,000 enabled the loss rate to be maintained at 1.906.  In 1990, with the same level of funding, the loss rate was also 1.9.

      My question for the minister is:  What evidence leads the minister to believe that his reduction of 50 percent of the funding for this program will enable us to maintain those tolerable loss rates?

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Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, let me commend the honourable member because she does understand the problem and she asks the appropriate question.  We cannot do anything other than restrict and hopefully delay the onslaught of the disease.  Best professional evidence says that if we can keep the diseased and dying trees to below the 2 percent level, then we in Winnipeg‑‑and I might say we have done in this instance a much better job than many other jurisdictions across the North American continent in controlling this disease‑‑are doing the right thing.

      It is precisely the question that she asks that I am fully prepared to examine.  I am fully prepared to review the current level of support for the Dutch elm disease program, and if my professional advisers, forestry advisers in the City of Winnipeg or indeed in the Department of Forestry in my department, tell me that I am putting at risk of exceeding that 2 percent level, then as I have said before, I believe, in this House, I am prepared to revisit the level of funding currently established in the budget exercise.

Ms. Friesen:  Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that.

      I would like the minister to acknowledge that part of the program's success is due to the fact that the City of Winnipeg has substantially increased its funding and that whereas the $700,000 provincial grant of 1989 was 48 percent of the total required, but in 1990 that 700,000 was only 35 percent of what was necessary to maintain this tolerable loss rate of less than 2 percent.

Mr. Enns:  Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member makes it difficult for me to respond, because far be it for me to take on prominent urban Tories on this question of fighting Dutch elm disease, not to mention the wife of a former Leader of mine, now a senator, or indeed others who have expressed concern about this.  But I want to assure the honourable member that us little farm folks, woodlands ranchers have perhaps even a deeper and greater understanding of this problem.

      That is why we are fighting Dutch elm disease in 41 rural municipalities and are adding to that another five municipalities while I stand, Mr. Speaker, which is something that honourable members opposite sometimes in their urban flavour forget that that Dutch elm disease does not know borders, is not just contained to the city of Winnipeg.

      It is an important issue in the city of Winnipeg.  It is an important issue in 45 rural municipalities as well, Mr. Speaker. We too have increased our budget in the overall fighting of this disease.

Ms. Friesen:  Will the minister then make the commitment to review that program to increase the funding so that the 5,000 dead elms which are the real danger to the riverbanks and to the rural municipalities, can be treated, removed‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Ms. Friesen:  Thank you, Mr. Speaker.  I want to ask the minister to make the commitment to restore the funding so that the dead elms that are along the riverbanks can be removed in ways that they could not be removed last year because of inadequate funding, and so that the municipalities and the city along the rivers, the Assiniboine and the Red, can be assured that there will be some protection against Dutch elm disease spread.

Mr. Enns:  Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) reminds me, and correctly so, that this government increased the overall funding to the City of Winnipeg by some 4.2 percent.

      It is entirely within the purview of the City of Winnipeg if they wish to use some of that increase in a manner that they wish to prioritize.  But because I am a reasonable man, I am going to do something that my 26 years in politics should tell me not to do.  Instead of simply answering the honourable member with the well‑proven response of "soon," I will say she will have an answer in 10 days.

 

Chinese CookingWine

Sale Restrictions

 

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  My question is to the Minister responsible for the Liquor Control Commission.

      Today we have learned that another Manitoban is believed to have died as a result of consumption of Chinese cooking wine. Community groups have repeatedly called on the government to respond to the growing problem of abuse of this product by restricting its sales in a manner that would prevent misuse.

      Will the Minister responsible for the Liquor Control Commission inform the House what action her department will be taking to address this issue?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act):  Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Point Douglas for his question and his concern in this issue.  We have a committee going.  It is a nonpotable abuse coalition committee.  It has members on it from the Main Street Project, from the substance abuse coalition, from the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, Point Douglas Residents' Committee, and the Winnipeg Police vice squad amongst others, who are currently examining this very question to determine whether or not substances such as the Chinese cooking wine which has traditionally been considered nonpotable because of its high salt content, is in fact potable, and if it is, what should be done about it.

      Those products are currently being tested by laboratories; results should be coming back from those labs before too long. The committee will deliberate on those results to see what action we could or should take.

Mr. Hickes:  My question is to the same minister.

      Since 1989, Alberta has changed their legislation to classify Chinese cooking wine as liquor to control its sale.  Why has this minister not responded previously to this same precedent that has been set?

Mrs. McIntosh:  Mr. Speaker, in various jurisdictions across Canada, there are differing definitions for what is controlled by various liquor commissions and those in charge of beverages containing alcohol.  You will see different laws in jurisdictions for rubbing alcohol, for example, and stomach bitters and those types of articles.  Here in Manitoba the definition of the alcohol that is controlled by the Liquor Control Commission has always been potable spirits.  The Alberta legislation has a differing definition.

      If as a result of our study we determine that this should be considered something that should come under the Liquor Control Commission or under the Department of Health or some other area of government, then some definitions may have to be changed in the act.

     

Solvent Abuse

Legislation Proclamation

 

'Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas):  My final question is to the Minister of Health.

      Will he now, given the apparent death of yet another person due to nonalcoholic beverage abuse, and also given this government's statements of commitment to stopping such abuse, finally proclaim the antisolvent abuse legislation introduced by the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis)?  It has been well over two years ago in which it could give police and community groups a tool to help fight this problem before we have more deaths in Manitoba.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I think my honourable friend the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission addressed the issue in how a course of action might be undertaken, which I think will effectively deal with the sale of such products and that, Sir, should be accomplishable within existing statute.

 

Women's Directorate

 Assistant Deputy Minister Competition

 

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

      The minister made a commitment last summer to an open competition for the appointment of the Assistant Deputy Minister for the Women's Directorate.  That never took place because this minister cancelled the competition.

      The reason why it was cancelled is because she says that there were no qualified candidates; and that is her opinion, not my opinion.

      My question is to the minister.  Why is the minister trying to leave the false impression that the competition was cancelled by the Civil Service when, in fact, it was cancelled from the Minister responsible for the Status of Women?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women):  Mr. Speaker, I have never tried to leave any false impressions on the record.  As a matter of fact, I am satisfied that I followed proper procedures in consultation with the Civil Service Commission and, in fact, the competition was cancelled by my office and I have never indicated otherwise.

      It is government's prerogative to make technical appointments in instances of senior Civil Service positions.  I followed that process and I believe I followed the proper process.

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Mr. Lamoureux:  It is beyond me how this minister can dare to blame the Civil Service.  How can she possibly do it given, Mr. Speaker, and I quote‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, my question is:  How can she blame the Civil Service in a letter in which, and I quote, I also wish to advise that the decision has been made to cancel the competition as the government has chosen to make an appointment through an alternative method?  That means the minister‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mrs. Mitchelson:  That is exactly what I said in my first answer.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, to the minister responsible for the Civil Service.  I make reference to the‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Would the honourable member for Inkster kindly put your question now, please.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, in reference to the Hay Report my question to the minister is:  How does the minister justify what the Minister responsible for the Status of Women has done given, and I quote from the report, the control that ministers appear to have over who gets approval‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mrs. Mitchelson:  The ranting and raving that we hear from the member for Inkster only indicates that he has no understanding of government because he has never been in government and never will be, Mr. Speaker.  I think the issue here is that the women of Manitoba deserve to be well served by the Women's Directorate, and I have every confidence that Theresa Harvey, who has been appointed by this government into a technical position in the Women's Directorate, not unlike what the NDP government did when they took the member for St. Johns out of the Premier's office and put her in the Women's Directorate without a competition.  It was a technical appointment, and that was their prerogative at the time, just as it was our prerogative this time.

      I have four letters from people within the community and within government who have highly recommended Theresa Harvey as the right person for the job.

 

Human Resources

Opportunity Centre Closure

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services.

      I have a letter here from the mayor of Selkirk addressed to the Minister of Family Services, and I will quote:  I urge you on behalf of the people of Selkirk who will lose the most to reconsider the closure of the Selkirk Human Resource Opportunity Centre.

      I also have a letter from the Selkirk local and the Manitoba Metis Federation again condemning the closure.

      Considering the mounting opposition to the closure, will the minister now stop the planned closure of the centre?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, day after day, we have opposition members asking us to spend more money in a variety of areas and certainly Family Services is one of the areas where this government has made a priority.

      We have increased the spending in Family Services almost 9 percent this year.  That compares very favourably with a budget that was brought forward by‑‑a pretend budget mind you‑‑members opposite.  I forget the name of the people who were referenced in a petition earlier, but in their wildest dreams they were going to increase spending in Family Services by 5 percent.

      We have had to make some difficult decisions to be able to create new programming, to create a new program in social allowances for the disabled, to make additional expenditures in daycare, to make additional expenditures in child welfare, and do some very creative and innovative things.

      We have legislation before the House now that we will be talking about later this afternoon, and I am sure members opposite will want to support that.

Mr. Dewar:  This government is bragging about the amount of individuals on welfare.  It is terrible.

      Will the minister delay the dismantling of the centre until he has a chance to meet with groups who are working on alternatives to the closure?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, as I was just starting to indicate, we have a lot of additional programming that Family Services is embarking on this year including the maintenance of the CareerStart Program that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) frequently asks about, the creation of the Partners with Youth program that we will be unveiling some details about in the near future.

      There are times when difficult decisions and certain adjustments have to be made to allow us to create new programming and to add to the expenditures in this department.  The adjustment that the member is referring to was one of those difficult decisions.

Mr. Dewar:  The minister refuses to answer the questions.  One of the reasons these individuals are in the training plant is, of course, because they have little money.

      My question to the minister is:  What is he going to do to provide these individuals who will now be forced to travel from Selkirk to Gimli, from Selkirk to Winnipeg, what is he going to provide to them?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member should have been at Estimates the other day.  We were discussing the Estimates of the Department of Family Services, and the critic for the NDP and the acting critic for the Liberals were asking some questions on this area, and we talked about programming that we have for individuals who are on social allowances.  I can say to the member that there are new initiatives being taken to attempt to get recipients of social allowances into the work force.  The members who are currently taking that program will continue to take it and later on be served in other areas.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

      Order, please.  Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to tell the House that if debate on the Address for Papers in private members' hour is concluded before 6 p.m., I will be bringing down my ruling respecting private members' Resolution 4.

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

 

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism):  Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable minister have leave?

Some Honourable Members:  Leave.

Mr. Speaker:  Leave.  It is agreed.

Mrs. Mitchelson:  Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to recognize an honour being given to two distinguished Manitobans.  This afternoon in Ottawa, Mr. Osmond T. Anderson and Mr. Gordon T. MacDonell will be among 25 Canadians being awarded citations for citizenship by the federal Multiculturalism and Citizenship Minister, the Honourable Gerry Weiner.

      Recipients are eligible for this honour only once in a lifetime and are recommended to the minister by an advisory panel.  Recipients are chosen from across the country on the basis of activities which promote the values of Canadian citizenship and encourage citizenship participation.  The activities of Mr. MacDonell and Mr. Anderson have underscored the shared values and beliefs of freedom, justice, equality and respect for diversity that characterize Canadian citizenship.

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      Their generosity and initiative have made a unique contribution to Manitoba.  Mr. MacDonell himself, Manitoban born, has served Manitoba and Manitobans in the educational field over the past 60 years.  His dedication reflects his strong personal belief in the value of learning.  His wisdom, enthusiasm, dedication and strong sense of community, has earned him the respect of his peers and all who know him.  It has been a career of notable accomplishment and honours earned.

      I am also pleased to point out that Mr. MacDonell is the founding member of the Citizenship Council of Manitoba, a strong reflection of his commitment to making this community and this country a better place for all.

      Mr. Anderson or O.T., as he is called by all who know him, is equally deserving of this recognition for his efforts to improve our community.  O.T. immigrated to Canada in 1959 from Jamaica. Upon completing his studies at the University of Manitoba, Mr. Anderson began with the Winnipeg School Division.  During this time, O.T. began a lifetime commitment to the advancement of multiculturalism in Manitoba.

      He was instrumental in the creation and establishment of the multicultural policies within our educational system.  His dedication to the multicultural ideal is illustrated by his work in ethnocultural promotion.  O.T. has served as president of the Jamaican Association of Manitoba and has played a strong role in the development and success of the Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg.  Mr. Anderson's tireless efforts have been twice recognized, in 1987 and in 1990, with the City of Winnipeg's Award for Outstanding Citizenship, Leadership and Community Service.

      As the current chairperson of the Manitoba Multicultural Resource Centre, it is evident O.T.'s dedication and energies have not diminished.  Mr. MacDonell and Mr. Anderson have both served Manitoba in an exemplary manner, and I ask the members of this House to join me in acknowledging and expressing our appreciation for their many years of contributing to the betterment of Manitoba community.  Thank you.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member for Radisson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave.  It is agreed.

Ms. Cerilli:  I would just like to join with the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism (Mrs. Mitchelson) in recognizing the award being given to Mr. Anderson and Mr. MacDonell.  Both of these individuals have contributed an incredible amount of time to issues of citizenship and multiculturalism in combating racism in Manitoba.  They certainly are deserving of this award and exemplify the kind of commitment that so many people in the multicultural committees and organizations throughout the province have, and it is important that they are recognized in this way.  Thank you.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, I would ask for leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

Mr. Speaker:  Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  Leave.  It is agreed.

Mr. Lamoureux:  Mr. Speaker, I too wanted to stand up and echo some of the remarks that were made from the minister to both Mr. MacDonell and Mr. Anderson.  In particular, as many people who know Mr. Anderson, Mr. Anderson likes to be addressed as O.T., whom I have come to know over the last number of years as an individual who is just a fantastic person to sit down and to talk to about multiculturalism.

      One of the things that I have always suggested, Mr. Speaker, is as a critic for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and concentrating on multiculturalism, it is always a benefit to be able to go out and meet with many different individuals, leaders of the different ethnic communities.  O.T. is one of those individuals who is so knowledgeable about multiculturalism that he would amaze a great number of individuals in this Chamber and could keep us glued to our seats and give unlimited time to talk about the importance of multiculturalism, what multiculturalism is really all about.

      I have had the opportunity on several occasions to sit down and to hear his words and wisdom regarding multiculturalism and how he feels about the multicultural Canada or the mosaic and what it is all about.  I know that he has been very active, not only within his own community, the Jamaican community, but also, as the minister pointed out, with the folk arts.  He has been really the leader over at the Multicultural Resource Centre.  I have had opportunities to meet with different individuals who have had some interaction with O.T., and the reaction has always been one of a positive thing.  So I do want to put those few words on the record and again give my congratulations to both candidates, in fact, Mr. Speaker.  Thank you, very much.

 

ORDERS OF THE DAY

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, would you call the bills in the following order:  Second Readings, Bills 61, 62, 64 and 70, and then adjourned debate Bill 45?  That is it.  If we will duly finish Bill 45, I will call additional bills after that.

Mr. Speaker: