LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, April 9, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  I beg to present the petition of Dianna Hunt, Angie Nieckarz, Allison Marciski and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) to call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is a substantial likelihood of further family violence.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  I beg to present the petition of Susan Stonehill, Morray Nesbitt, Jim Jones and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse Campaign.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway):  I beg to present the petition of M.E. Graveline, E.K. Larsen, M. Brodsky and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse Campaign.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

      The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated.

       I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

      The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated.

       I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

      The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated.

* (1335)

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 28 seniors from Hamilton House.  These visitors are under the direction of Mary Wilkonski.  Hamilton House is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. McIntosh).

      Also this afternoon, we have 45 students from Grade 4, from the Teulon Elementary School.  These students are under the direction of Mrs. Lyle Campbell.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

       

Economic Growth

Government Strategy

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) stated that we were being selective in quoting the most recent statistics in terms of growth for the province of Manitoba, a growth rate that declined by some 25 percent since the government has tabled its budget in this Chamber.

      Today, we have a second set of predictions on the growth in Manitoba, and unfortunately, they are even worse.  We have gone from 3 percent growth predicted in 1992, according to the Royal Bank, down to 1.4 percent growth, a decline of some 50 percent in the projected growth rate for the province of Manitoba.

      These are very important numbers, Mr. Speaker.  They have an impact on our jobs, on our social assistance.  They have an impact on our services and the quality of life in the province of Manitoba.

      I would ask the Deputy Premier, what impact will these changed forecasts downward have on the programs and services of Manitoba and particularly the vital services of Manitoba like health care which are in so much crisis today?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, again let me respond to the member by saying that he is, of course, always prepared to bring to this House the negativism of the New Democratic Party and to continue to work on the negative side of what is going on.

      Let me say that our government is committed to health care, to education, to family services, as has been demonstrated in our budget.  There is no change.  There are increases in our budget to look after those essential services.

 

Out-Migration Statistics

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Well, you have a 50 percent decline in the growth rate of this province from an independent agency, not the New Democrats, but from two banks and for two days in a row, and this government just continues to whistle past the economic graveyard of this province.

      Mr. Speaker, last month we saw 8,000 fewer people in the labour force than a year ago.  Last month, in February, Manitoba bankruptcies were the highest they have been since the 1930s‑‑the highest they have been since the 1930s.  Our out‑migration and net migration rate in terms of a per capita number in the last quarter of 1991 was the worst in Canada.  We are losing more people than any other province in Canada on a per capita basis, and yet this government says, well, everything is okay; happy days are here again.

      My question to the Deputy Premier is:  What is he going to do to stop Manitobans from leaving this province and leaving us 10 out of 10 in terms of people staying in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, one of the things that we have done is to stop putting intolerable taxes on the backs of those taxpayers like the New Democratic Party did for the last six years of their administration, spending $27 million in Saudi Arabia, $30 million on a bridge without a road to it.  That is the kind of hemorrhaging that has been stopped by this government.

Mr. Doer:  I thank the Deputy Premier for his tirade, Mr. Speaker.

* (1340)

 

Employment Creation Strategy

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Again, let us look at the facts in terms of what is happening to this province.  Mr. Speaker, we are suffering the worst bankruptcy numbers, personal and corporate, since the 1930s.  We are suffering out‑migration and net migration worse than any other province in Canada.  We have, two days in a row, seen decreased growth rates from two independent agencies dealing with the economy of Manitoba.  We have a $90‑million increase in expenditures in two budgets for this government for social assistance, to deal with the 51 percent increase in welfare rates in the city of Winnipeg alone.

      I have another question to the Deputy Premier.  Would it not make a lot more sense to have employable people who are now forced onto social assistance in the province of Manitoba, with both the policies of this government and also the recession, would it not make more sense to have people working?  Would it not make sense to have some of those people, those young people who are unemployed and are on welfare right now, working in vital programs that are necessary for the province?

      For example, would it not be better to have some of our young people who are on social assistance, who are employable today, have some of that money from the social assistance budget of $90 million placed in a working program to have projects like Dutch elm disease working in our communities, working across the province, rather than people being unemployed?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member made reference to bankruptcies.  Manitoba in fact has shown a decrease year over year in both personal bankruptcies and business bankruptcies, unlike other provinces of this country.  We have in fact seen a lowering of the bankruptcies in this province.

      Secondly, Mr. Speaker, one thing we have done as well, as a government, is try to remove some of the payroll tax‑‑the job‑prohibitive tax that was introduced by the former New Democratic Party‑‑and introduce a job partnership program for the youth and carry on with some of the youth employment programs for summer activity.  There will be many activities that they will be employed in through government support.

 

Child and Family Services

Response Time

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, early this morning, it was reported that a two‑year‑old boy was found in only his diaper outside his apartment building by the caretaker, who immediately notified Winnipeg Child and Family Services.  At noon, almost five hours later, no representative of Child and Family Services had yet come to investigate the situation.

      Since the minister's office was also notified of this situation this morning, what action has the minister taken?  Can he confirm that the delay was due to the recent recentralization and lack of adequate resources faced by the caseworkers in Child and Family Services?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I will take the specifics of that as notice and get an answer for the honourable member.

      What I can tell you, as far as the centralization of Child and Family Services, we have seen no diminishing of services in Manitoba, in Winnipeg through the use of Child and Family Services.  On top of that, we have introduced a number of reforms that are underway now that we have had the opportunity to talk about in the past and that I am sure we will have an opportunity to talk about during the Estimates process later today.

      The Child Advocate legislation is before the House.  The automation of the record keeping within Child and Family Services is underway, and we should have a portion of that program up and running probably late spring and early summer.  The high‑risk indicators are being used with the front‑line workers in the field, so there are reforms going on.

      If the member chooses to bring specific cases to the floor of the House, this is not the appropriate place to‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Ms. Barrett:  Mr. Speaker, this minister's office was notified this morning‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  This is not a time for debate.

 

Resources

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Is this lack of immediate action or any action‑‑it would appear to me at this point in time‑‑not a blatant violation of the first principle of The Child and Family Services Act, which is the protection of children?  Is it not as a direct result of inadequate resources so that caseworkers have twice or three times the number of children to look after that they should have?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  I remind the member that the resources that have gone into the Child and Family Services agencies within the province have virtually doubled in the last four to five budgets.  The issue is not one of resources.

      I have already indicated that I would take the specifics of her question as notice.  I have every confidence in the professional social workers and the administration who are in charge of the Family Services agencies within the province to react appropriately.

Ms. Barrett:  Given that there is a continuing lack of adequate resourcing to the Child and Family Service agencies and an enormous two to three to four times increase in caseload above what should be in place to allow for and provide for protection of children, what assurances can the minister give this House and the children of Manitoba that this situation and situations like it, which have happened many times in the past and will happen again unless something is done about it, will not be repeated and that all children in Manitoba will be assured at least of the bare first minimum of basic protection of their lives?

* (1345)

Mr. Gilleshammer:  I have already indicated that in the new resources that have gone into Child and Family Service agencies over the last few years, this government has dedicated almost 9 percent of new funding to Family Services in this budget, far outstripping the budget that the member worked on and that they released the day before our budget calling for a 5 percent increase in Family Services budget.

      We have dedicated consistently over the last five budgets more resources to this department, and the Family Services are seeing an increase in the amount of funds that they will be able to use for their work in the next budget year.

 

Child and Family Services

Communication Process

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I got the same phone call as the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), and I have been trying since I received that phone call to get in touch with the worker who was apparently supposed to be involved in this particular child.

      I have learned that in fact the Child and Family Services agency attended the apartment block within 25 minutes of having been called and that the situation was resolved.  I am very pleased to know that, but I want to know why the minister would not have some action in his department that he would not be immediately alerted to this kind of case which was reported to his office this morning.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Well, I thank the member for the comments, and I think this clearly illustrates the type of information that members bring to the House for political reasons.  I have every confidence that the agency, the administration of the agency and the staff there respond to these issues on a daily basis.

      Some of the information the department has about specific cases is not information that we are going to share in the House or with the public.  Some of the cases that individuals deal with are incredibly complicated and incredibly sad.

      I say to you and I have said before that I have the utmost respect for those front‑line workers and those administrators who, daily and on a 24‑hour basis, seven days a week, deal with some of the very sad cases in society.  It does not serve anyone well to bring information here in a fashion that while it is not hysterical, it is certainly clearly there to misrepresent the facts.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, with the greatest respect, the minister did not address what I think is a very fundamental question.

      He is the minister responsible for an extremely sensitive department, a department which deals with children, in this case, a two‑year‑old.  I would like to know why someone on his staff did not notify him immediately that there was a breakdown in communication, because when the reporter called the agency, the reporter was informed it was none of his business, but it is every person's business in our community that a two‑year‑old child would be outside in a diaper at minus 8 degrees.  It is everybody's business.

      I want to know from the minister why he would not have that kind of alert team in his office that would make him aware of that kind of difficulty so that he can ensure that the processes were in place to look after this child.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, we have hundreds of workers and thousands of cases that are active across this province.  Again, the agencies that we fund, whether it be the Winnipeg agency, the Central Manitoba agency, the Westman agency, the native agencies in the areas of the province where our department does that work, they deal with these cases on a daily basis.  Some of these cases are brought to the minister's attention and the department's attention on an ongoing basis.  This is the work that those people do.  We hear from time to time of specific cases that are ongoing that take some time to solve.

      I think that when cases are put in the hands of those agencies, agencies that we fund, agencies that work under provincial legislation, we allow them to do that work, that the minister's office and the senior staff do get involved with these agencies on an ongoing basis, but we also allow them to do the work that they are entitled to do.

* (1350)

 

Child Advocate

Reporting Process

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the agency in this case acted.  It is equally true that in other cases, the agency does not act.  We have also seen an example today where the minister's department did not act.

      Will the minister now tell this House why he is requiring the Child Advocate to report to him?  What is wrong with a model that would have the Child Advocate report to this Legislative Assembly so that children would not fall between his department and the agency?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased the member has raised that question. Her acting critic raised that question the other day, and I am on the record with the answers to those questions.

      We are setting up a Child Advocate in this province based on models that exist in Alberta and Ontario.  In those provinces, those advocacy departments‑‑or the part of that department works very well.  The member and her acting critic, I think, are confusing the role of the advocate with the role of the Ombudsman.  We have an Ombudsman who looks into personal cases and works with government where people feel that government is not serving them.  The role of the advocate will be to work with children, and that advocate will come into place when the legislation is passed.  I am sure members will support it.  It will be passed this session.

      We were going to have an advocate in Manitoba, as recommended many, many times, that no other government has acted on.  That advocate's office will be modelled on advocates in other provinces where it works very well.

 

Lakes and Rivers

Copper Sulphate Buildup

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, the federal government released today its second State of the Environment Report, which raised concerns about the water quality in lakes and rivers in the prairie provinces.  There is mounting pressure then to seriously consider the effects of projects like the Assiniboine diversion and to more strictly enforce regulations that are dealing with chemical use in lakes and rivers.

      More specifically, I have a letter from the Department of Environment which states that copper sulfate is no longer a registered substance to be used to eliminate algae in lakes in Manitoba.  How will the minister ensure that this chemical, which has been used in the past, will not be used in lakes in Manitoba this summer?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  By not permitting, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, there are still communities that are bulletining their intention in the local newspapers to use this substance.

      Will the minister make a commitment to implementing more inspection of those communities that have used this in the past so it will not be used this summer?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, the bulletining that the member refers to, the community, I believe, was somewhat in error in the format that they used in their bulletining, and certainly it was not the intention of the department to permit the use of the material, as was advertised in that bulletin.

Ms. Cerilli:  Mr. Speaker, one of the communities in question‑‑or one of the lakes in question is Pelican Lake, which is horribly polluted.  I would like to ask the minister if he will ensure this lake which has used almost 2,000 pounds in one year of copper sulfate, that there is sediment sampling and testing done in this lake?

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, it is confirmed that we are now talking about the same bulletin.  As a matter of fact, we are, as I said, not willing to permit the use of the copper sulfate, and we have very good reasons for not doing that, one of which is that we do not want any buildup.

      I do take objection, however, to the member referring to the pollution in the lake.  The last time it was brought to our attention that there was considerable amount of bacterial lode in the lake, it was found that low water volumes in that lake, which are now being addressed by the structures that have been put in place combined with the high numbers of ducks and geese on the lake, was what was giving the high bacterial reading in the water.

* (1355)

 

Health Care Facilities

Bed Closure Proposal

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, it should be increasingly clear to everyone in this Chamber that there is chaos in our hospital system.  Patients are worried, staff are fearful, administrators are concerned as a result of this government's secretive approach to changes to our health care system.  In particular, the Health Sciences Centre has been trying to deal with this very difficult directive from the government to make big cuts to beds in its budget.  The board of that facility met last week and discussed its response to this government directive and sent that plan to this minister.

      Will the Minister of Health share that information with the people of Manitoba and table that plan here in this Chamber?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, after yesterday, when my honourable friend brought not one, not two, but three pieces of incorrect information to this House, it almost seems as if it is epidemic that they have what I have come to affectionately know for the New Democratic Party as the "leader's disease."  I will not reflect on that bad information that my honourable friend brought to the House yesterday.

      What my honourable friend is correct about is, yes, the Health Sciences Centre and other hospitals have been developing their operational plans to meet their budget allocations for this fiscal year.  The process has been one of feeding back into Manitoba health, into our facilities co‑ordinator, the associate deputy minister, those plans of action for this fiscal year.

      Mr. Speaker, those plans are under active consideration by the department.  I would hope that when my honourable friend chooses to move along the Estimates process so that we reach the hospital line in the Estimates, as I have urged her to do now for 12 hours, we will have a full and complete discussion of the issues with my appropriate staff there.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, if we cannot get information about this government's plans for our hospitals, could we at least get from this minister the plans of facilities, tabled with this minister, in response to this government's directives?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, the plans of government and the respective hospitals will be abundantly clear, as I have indicated several times in the Estimates process, over the next ensuing several weeks.

      I just want to note to my honourable friend that when she is making these sorts of requests of government, one would assume from casual observation that those would then become policy that a New Democratic Party would put in place.

      I want to remind my honourable friend that any budgetary plans from hospitals to the Department of Health have never been shared by New Democrat, Liberal, Conservative government in the province of Manitoba.  They are working documents of the ministry.  I do not intend to change that longstanding tradition, neither do I intend to change the policy put in place by Howard Pawley and the NDP of not allowing deficits in the hospitals.  I know my honourable friend from opposition has flip‑flopped on that policy, but a little bit of consistency would be appropriate for my honourable friend in her questioning and her future policy development.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, never before have we had a government which has refused to provide information about‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  This is not a time for debate.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Would the Minister of Health not now agree that it is time to end the fears and concerns and confusion in our health care system and provide, for all of us here in this Chamber and for the public at large, details of this government's plans for hospital beds and budgets?

* (1400)

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I have told my honourable friend for the last 12 hours in Estimates that when we get to the hospital lines, those kinds of details on this year's budget can be made available with the appropriate staff.  My honourable friend wants to chew away on phantoms.  That is her privilege.

      Mr. Speaker, I reject totally and completely the false accusation by my New Democrat friends where they say that this is a secretive government.  This government has opened up the discussion process more than any other government in the history of the province of Manitoba and, I submit, opened the discussion process more than any other government in Canada around health care reform.

      That is why we have tabled Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation studies on the health care system, to enlighten my honourable friend to the challenges facing all Canadians in reforming the health care system.  That is why we have tabled, for my honourable friends, the Health Advisory Network reports as I have received them and made them public.  Mr. Speaker, this is the most open government that the province has ever had in its history, and my honourable friend persists in‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

       

Point of Order

       

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  This is a very serious matter.  The minister has five advisory network reports since last summer, and he has not tabled one or made any of them public‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.  It is a dispute over the facts.

 

Economic Growth

Prairie Provinces' Co-operation

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, I was interested in some of the information that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) brought forward today because I think it does underline the very difficult position that this province finds itself in, in part, as a result of changes in federal policy that have I think served to weaken the ties that bind the prairie region together.

      On February 13 and 14, a number of people met in this city to look at some ways in which we can build some strength back into the prairie economy.  Representatives from all three provinces were there.  The Minister of Trade is aware of the outcome of that meeting, which was an attempt to look at the ways in which the prairie provinces can work together to build strength in this region.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Trade if he has had an opportunity to discuss these proposals with his provincial counterparts.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have received some of the information from that conference that took place in Winnipeg.  Subsequently, I had a discussion with one of my counterparts in Saskatchewan.  As economic ministers, we meet occasionally as western ministers, and we both agreed that a useful topic the next time we meet would certainly be the whole area of western co‑operation. Whether one talks about integration is a bit further removed, but there are already areas where we are co‑operating in tourism through development of standards and certification and science and technology with an earth‑space initiative.

      In other areas of co‑operation recently, in the environmental field on the environmental industry side, we are co‑operating, so there is extensive co‑operation to build on already, and we agreed that the idea of continued co‑operation and potential enhancement would be a very useful topic of discussion at our next meeting.

Mr. Alcock:  I am very pleased to receive that answer from the minister.

      Can the minister tell me whether or not the suggestions about creating greater co‑operation and perhaps joint research among the prairie telephone systems is one of the items that will be up for discussion at those meetings?

Mr. Stefanson:  The honourable member for Osborne refers to one specific recommendation out of, I believe, 12 or 14 or 16 recommendations that flowed from that conference.  As I have indicated, at this stage, discussions would be at a preliminary stage in terms of the whole issue, the areas of co‑operation.  We are already doing some that I have outlined.

      I think there is opportunity for more.  At what stage we would get to dealing with the specific recommendations would remain to be seen.  Obviously, they also impact on other departments within our government that would require review. Once we have had an opportunity to go through the documentation that flowed from that particular conference in Winnipeg, we will be sharing it with all of my colleagues, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Alcock:  I wonder if the minister can tell us whether he or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) have had discussions with the other two provinces about creating a pension pool for the three provinces to provide capital for the development of projects in the prairie region.

Mr. Stefanson:  At this stage, Mr. Speaker, no, we have not.  I think most members of the House will recall from the western Premiers' meetings that took place in Nipawin last year, what flowed from that was the concept of the code of conduct in terms of investment promotion to halt, we will call them, the bidding wars that occur occasionally amongst provinces, certainly in western Canada and across all of Canada.  That is certainly going to be a topic of discussion.

      What the honourable member for Osborne refers to ultimately might be something that certainly as a topic of discussion could flow from that very issue because the whole issue of us competing as provinces for investment, the cost to the taxpayers and so on, is one that is very timely and is actually to be discussed by all internal Trade ministers here in Winnipeg at the end of the month.

 

Winnipeg International Airport

Protection

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, last year, over the objections of the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst), with the support of the Premier (Mr. Filmon), approved funding for the Rotary Pines project, thus potentially jeopardizing 130 jobs at Winnipeg International Airport.  Now, the City of Winnipeg and the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce are requesting the provincial government to protect the airport from encroaching development.

      Does the Minister of Transportation still support airport protection legislation as he did last year and as he did as early as 1989?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, most definitely.

Mr. Martindale:  Has the Minister of Transport brought to cabinet the pressing need for airport protection legislation on the Alberta model and convinced his colleagues, especially the Premier (Mr. Filmon) who is unaware of its success, since much of the land in question is not within the city of Winnipeg but outside city boundaries?

Mr. Driedger:  I want to indicate that I am working closely with my colleague, as well as my Premier and the City of Winnipeg, in terms of setting up under Plan Winnipeg protection for the airport.

      Also, at the same time, there is federal legislation being developed that will also tie into that.  I am confident that by the time we are through with this, during the course of this summer, the protection will be in place.

Mr. Martindale:  The real question is whether the minister is going to rely on the City of Winnipeg and Plan Winnipeg, which is not at all reliable.  We know that prodevelopment councillors in the past have amended Plan Winnipeg to allow things that are not proper.

      Will this minister bring in provincial legislation to do what the city is now requesting so that the province can have some control both in the city and outside the city?

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate that the authorities who have power to make certain decisions at the present time, if they will not adequately address the protection of the Winnipeg airport, the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) and myself will make sure that they will be addressed properly.

 

55 Plus

Program Indexing

 

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Mr. Speaker, it is now clear that the 55 Plus program will again not be indexed to inflation. As a result, those already recognized in law as living below the poverty line will be forced to accept an even lower standard of living.

      Can the Minister responsible for Seniors tell this House why his government has chosen to deprive seniors in this way?

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors):  Mr. Speaker, I almost lost a bet when I saw seniors up in the audience and I bet that I would have a question.

      Mr. Speaker, to the member for St. Boniface, at a time of difficult times, our government has kept payments equal.  We are looking after our seniors both in the health field and the family services.  This government has its pride to work with the seniors throughout the province with our senior abuse, our financial abuse system, throughout all our portfolios, and will continue to benefit the seniors of this province.

Mr. Gaudry:  Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the cheap shot.

      Can the Minister responsible for Seniors tell us how the seniors are to pay increased costs of hydro, telephone, food, clothing, all of which are increasing, many above the rate of inflation, when this government refuses to provide any help?

Mr. Ducharme:  Mr. Speaker, we are‑‑not a cheap shot‑‑increasing through our health services, through our many benefits.  Unlike the previous administration, they taxed those seniors who were at the low level at a percent of 2 percent on the net tax.

Mr. Gaudry:  Mr. Speaker, can this minister tell this House the cost of Seniors Day here at the Legislature, and will they consider using these dollars to provide for indexing the 55 Plus?

* (1410)

Mr. Ducharme:  Mr. Speaker, we have different seniors groups who have come forward to us.  We sit down with those seniors groups, and they tell us the different ways they would like their money spent.  For instance, on continuing care, we are increasing it on all personal care homes.  If they are concerned about the health care in personal care homes, for instance, as announced by the Health minister, we are going to establish 600 personal care homes shortly in this province.  That is the way we will benefit the seniors.

 

Port of Churchill

Efficiency

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture's position on the transportation talks is now abundantly clear.  His April 4 letter to the Free Press demonstrates that he has swallowed hook, line and sinker the federal position with regard to Churchill rail line abandonment and method of payment.  He says it is all in the name of efficiency.  He says the federal government has conducted an internal review of transportation efficiencies to make the transportation system from farm to port more efficient.

      Since it is well known that Churchill has a $20, at least, advantage in shipping over St. Lawrence ports, I want to ask the Minister of Transportation why he has not informed his Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) of that fact and whether he agrees with his Minister of Agriculture that in fact shipping more grain through Churchill would not make the system more efficient rather than less efficient.

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, since I took office as Minister of Highways and Transportation in May of '88, many versions and many figures have been thrown about in terms of the advantage or disadvantage of shipping through Churchill.  The member well knows that there are opponents to the Port of Churchill.  When I had federal Minister Shirley Martin out last year to Churchill, the one assurance that she gave me was that there would be precise figures, accurate information brought forward.  That is being worked on by the federal government.  However, I have to indicate that we will be watching the figures and information very closely.

      We have the assurance that somewhere along the line, when that information comes forward, we will be able to have a chance to dialogue and check, and we will scrutinize very closely that kind of information that is being brought forward.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, it is clear that that information is already there, and this minister fails to recognize it.

      Why has this minister failed to ensure that the transportation talks, $1.1‑million consultative sham by the federal government, did not include balanced information, accurate information, on the efficiencies of a greatly expanded role for Churchill?  Why did he not make sure that information was in those hearings?

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, I have the same information that the member had when he was the minister, but I have to indicate to you that there has been lots of additional, which I consider, wrong information that has been out on the hustings and for the public of Manitoba as well as for the federal government in terms of I do not believe that we have accurate information.  I believe we have accurate information, but I believe there is a lot of inaccurate information that is out there.

      I am hoping that within the next three, four, six months, we will be able to establish precise figures that are going to be not just beneficial to us, that we use, but that everybody will be able to make themselves available of that, which will show that there can be viability in Churchill and that Churchill should stay for the benefit of the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this minister has the accurate information.  Why is he not putting it out there?  He knows it is accurate information.

      I ask him whether he will ensure that his Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), his colleague, travels to the Hudson Bay Route Association next week with him so that he too can learn the facts about Churchill.

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, I am not going to be taking the Minister of Agriculture along, but I want to indicate that I am prepared to take the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper), the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and whoever else‑‑if they want a member from the Liberal Party.  Not all of them, but certainly I am prepared to take‑‑

Some Honourable Members:  Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Driedger:  Mr. Speaker, let me rephrase that.  I am prepared to take members of the opposition along, as I did last year, to the Hudson Bay Route Association meeting that is taking place on Monday.  We will again have a chance to discuss this, where I will raise serious concerns about the future of Churchill, where I think it is very important that all members of the House are speaking from the same song sheet when we deal with this issue.

 

Public Schools

Enrollment Decline

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education.

      We have learned that since coming to office, this government has seen enrollments at private schools increase by 13 percent or 1,245 students while, in the same period of time, enrollments at public schools have decreased 1 percent, or down 1,907.

      Can this minister advise the House what steps this government is going to take to prevent the creation of a two‑tiered education system in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the honourable member that in the independent school system, some schools set up for many reasons. Some of them are for religious reasons in this province, and parents in fact have the opportunity of free choice.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, the minister is well aware that these schools have been in existence for 75 years.  Can the minister answer the question and indicate why the increase, since the Conservatives came to office, is 13 percent in the private schools in enrollment, and it is down 1 percent in public schools?  Has it something perhaps to do with government funding at a windfall basis to many schools?

Mrs. Vodrey:  I certainly hope that my honourable friend is not indicating that he considers that there are some extremely drastic difficulties within the public school system, because we on our side of the House, Mr. Speaker, recognize that the public school system is in fact doing an extremely good job.  There are many hard‑working teachers and administrators and trustees working in that system.

Mr. Speaker:  The time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

ORDERS OF THE DAY

 

Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health, and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services.

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)