VOL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, April 22, 1992

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E.A. Sawka, Mavis Polden, Aurore Sawka and others requesting the government consider restoring the former full funding of $700,000 to fight Dutch elm disease.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Dutch elm disease control program is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm trees; and

WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources himself stated that, "It is vital that we continue our active fight against Dutch elm disease in Manitoba," and

WHEREAS, despite that verbal commitment, the government of Manitoba has cut its funding to the city's DED control program by half of the 1990 level, a move that will jeopardize the survival of Winnipeg's elm trees.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the government of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to consider restoring the full funding of the Dutch elm disease control program to the previous level of 1990.

As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

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I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and

The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further conjugal or family violence being perpetrated.

I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

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PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

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Mr. Bob Rose (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Economic Development): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Economic Development presents the following as their Third Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, April 21, 1992, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. for the fiscal periods ending March 31, 1989, 1990 and 1991.

Mr. J. Frank Johnson, Deputy Chairperson, Mr. Herb LeGrange, Manager, Mr. Dennis Brears, Comptroller and Mr. Bill Podolsky, Executive Director, Administrative Services provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Reports and the business of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd.

Your committee has considered the Annual Reports of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. for the fiscal periods ending March 31, 1989, 1990 and 1991 and has adopted the same as presented.

All of which is respectfully submitted.

Mr. Rose: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 1992‑93, Seniors Directorate.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table with the House the second Five Year Report on the Status of Forestry in the province of Manitoba.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Avant de passer a la periode des questions, je tiens a vous signaler la presence dans la galerie publique de vingt‑neuf etudiants de la neuvieme annee de l'Ecole Viscount‑Alexander, sous la direction d'Amelie Gauthier. Cette institution est situee dans la circonscription de l'honorable ministre de l'Education (Mme Vodrey).

[Translation]

Prior to Oral Questions, I wish to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us today twenty‑nine Grade 9 students from Viscount Alexander School, under the direction of Amelie Gauthier. This school is located in the constitutency of the honourable Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey).

[English]

Also this afternoon, from the Garden City Collegiate, we have twenty‑five Grade 9 students, and they are under the direction of Roberta Topping. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

CN Rail Layoffs

Government Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have been raising questions about the employment levels at CN on previous occasions in Question Period. Unfortunately today, we have learned again that there are permanent layoffs at the Transcona shops affecting 97 positions in the shop that will result in the layoff, through seniority and bumping, of a number of people working in Manitoba whose families reside here.

During the Premier's Estimates on March 23, 1992, I asked the Premier some questions about the CN issue, and the Premier responded that he has made his views known about the cutbacks at CN all the way up to the Prime Minister and that he had met with Brian Smith, the chairman of CN on March 19, 1992. He is, quote: a relatively regular visitor to my office; he was there Thursday of last week, and I seek assurances from him about the CN situation in Manitoba.

I would ask the Premier: Did the Conservative appointment to the Board of Directors of CN, Mr. Smith, raise the issue of pending layoffs of 97 jobs? What action is the government going to take about the loss of employment at the CN Transcona shops?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I am sure that question is borderline out of order since it is not under the jurisdiction of this government.

Having said that, I say to the Leader of the Opposition that we have in the past expressed our very serious concern about transfers out of here to other jurisdictions. Such is not the case here. This is a case of economics. If the Leader of the Opposition wants to look at the press release and the information that has been issued by CN, it said that the staff reductions are the result of a drop in the number of major overhauls required by CN's locomotive fleet. These have been brought about in part by better replacement parts and improved work methods and in part by the fleet being smaller and more productive.

The fact of the matter is that I do not think that anyone in this House can criticize a business that is in a highly competitive mode, that has the prospect of losing thousands of jobs if it is not preserved in an economic fashion. We as a government do not want to see CN damaged by being forced to continue uneconomic practices and therefore put in jeopardy the thousands of jobs that it has in Manitoba today. I do not think that we can criticize a firm for trying to keep competitive rather than risk the loss of thousands of jobs.

Impact Locomotive Repairs

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier would note we lost 200 jobs last year at CN, full‑time jobs. We have also lost a number of part‑time jobs in the sense that the layoff has gone from one month to three months and again reannounced by CN today.

I would ask the Premier as Chair of the Economic Committee of Cabinet and with his cabinet economic committee secretariat: Did they evaluate the statements made by the Conservative Minister of Transportation, Jean Corbeil, who said last December in Manitoba that Winnipeg has no historic role to play in the CN operations and that they further evaluate the decision of the federal Mulroney government to buy new locomotives in the United States and what impact that would have on the repair of locomotives here in Winnipeg?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am informed that there will be no impact here on that particular move. I would also let the Leader of the Opposition know what he should know, and that is that CN employs about 5,200 people in Manitoba. Of these, 4,700 are located in Winnipeg. It is the second largest concentration of employees in CN's system. In fact, Manitoba has 40 percent of CN's employment in western Canada, although the province generates only 8 percent of CN's western Canada traffic volume.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am not interested in Jean Corbeil's or Brian Smith's reasons. I think it is important that Manitoba retain its historic place as the transportation centre of Canada and the rail transportation centre of Canada. That is what we want to see from this government.

Employment Creation Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A further question, Mr. Speaker. When we raised this issue before a number of times, we have been proposing that the government be involved with the CN management and the Crown corporation directors‑‑that is the federal Minister of Transportation‑‑in looking for alternatives.

In the early '80s, the provincial government and the federal government went ahead with an ERDA agreement to repair boxcars to employ people in this province when there was a downsizing, boxcars that were ultimately used for the transportation of grain and used for the Port of Churchill.

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I would ask the Premier as head of the Economic Committee of Cabinet‑‑and Lloyd Axworthy was involved as well, another person that was involved in viable alternatives‑‑has he been involved in any alternatives and any other plans and programs that could get the 200 people who were laid off last year employed, and to get the 97 people who have been announced today to be laid off employed in the province of Manitoba in the very important transportation area?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we know that when the previous NDP government brought in the highest taxes on diesel fuel for the railways in the country, Howard Pawley said, they cannot pull up the tracks; they cannot move out of here.

We now know that they can in fact move personnel. We know that they are in a very competitive mode. We know that they have 5,200 people in Manitoba, the second largest concentration in their entire system, and we also know that we have nine of the 13 largest trucking firms in Canada headquartered here. That is direct competition. They are headquartered here, and the concentration of their business is here. That is all part of the competitive mix. Instead of talking about the buggy‑whip age, he should be talking about the new realities of the competition.

We have the New Democrats who have their head in the sand, who are in old‑think over and over again, who are trying to preserve a system of transportation that has changed today. I know that the New Democrats do not like to be exposed for their lack of knowledge about the transportation industry and the changes that have taken place. They base their facts and their figures on what existed decades ago, and they are unwilling to change. All they want to do is ensure that the company that employs 5,200 people will eventually go out of business. That is what they want. That is their preference, to force them to do things that are uneconomic and put them out of business.

We will not do that. We are going to encourage the continuing change, upgrading of technology, more efficiency, more effectiveness to preserve and enhance the jobs that are here in Manitoba.

CN Rail Layoffs

Government Strategy

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it appears by the Premier's statements that he is in favour of the action that CN has shown here today and that he is unconditionally giving his support to CN by the statements that he has made here today.

The legacy of this government in transportation is one of bankruptcies and layoffs in this province. Today, we have learned another 97 jobs are going to be lost from the Transcona CN main shops. These 97 jobs are on top of the 200 that we already lost last year in permanent job losses, on top of the 1,500 temporary layoffs last year and another 1,300 that are going to occur‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Transcona kindly put your question, please.

Mr. Reid: My question to the Premier is: Given that this Premier has accused me of false rumours and allegations‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Reid: When will this Premier take the CN and the federal government to task for slowly sucking the life out of rail transportation in this province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we go from an astronaut yesterday to a space cadet today in this Legislature.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the comments made by the Premier are, shall we say, not in keeping with our rules, our traditions, are unbecoming of him as Premier. I would like to ask you to have him withdraw that and withdraw the kind of comments he has made against the member for Transcona who has been fighting on behalf of his constituents and deserves respect from the Premier for doing that.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable opposition House leader does not have a point of order. The remarks were not attributed to anybody at all, but I would caution all honourable members that when we refer to a member in the Chamber, we refer to them as an honourable member or the minister responsible for.

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Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I would say that the member for Transcona and all of his colleagues would do a lot more for his constituents if they would not try and force a company to remain inefficient, force them out of business and force 5,000 people out of work instead of attempting to make people more efficient, more effective and more competitive so that they can stay in this province and enhance and improve their economics and therefore employ more people in this province.

That is what this government is working on and that is what this government will continue to work on‑‑efficient, competitive; and businesses that are in the world economic scene so that they can attract and keep investment and job creation, not mired in old‑think, not mired in a situation that represents decades‑old thinking in this country. We have to be competitive. We have to be in the modern age, and the member for Transcona had better learn that or else there will be a lot more jobs to be lost as a result of it.

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Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, with this announced layoff of 97 permanent employees will be the closure of the Forge Shop in the Transcona CN shops, an historic part of the shop operation. This shop produced specialty steel work, some of which must now be bought in Germany.

Will the Premier call upon the Prime Minister of Canada and CN Rail to put a stop to this exporting of Manitoba jobs overseas to Germany?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that we, through many, many of our employers in this country and this province, export goods all over the world. Where we have competitive industries, they are making sales all over the world, including in Germany.

If the member opposite is suggesting that we should promote inefficiency, that we should promote companies to be uncompetitive, then he is suggesting that we should put more workers out of work, and I will not accept that as an answer.

I know that Manitobans are competitive, hardworking and very, very productive individuals. Those are the people who will continue to work, continue to grow and continue to provide economic benefits for this province, and those are the people whom our policies will always support. They will result in growth and investment for the long term, not the kind of uncompetitiveness, not the kind of inefficiency that the member for Transcona wants to promote.

Mr. Reid: It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier supports offshore shopping.

CN Rail Layoffs

Labour Adjustment Program

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): My question is for the Minister of Labour on this subject.

A year ago I requested that the Department of Labour initiate a training program with CN employees‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Mr. Reid: ‑‑and I asked the minister's department to initiate meetings between CN, the employees of CN and the Department of Labour to upgrade the skills of these employees who are now finding themselves laid off, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Labour has taken no steps to initiate such a program.

I ask the Minister of Labour: What action is he going to take now to provide these training skills for these laid‑off employees?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I think we all appreciate that when we have a layoff or economic bad news in our constituency, it is not a good time for us, but I would remind the honourable member for Transcona that when he approached me, we arranged meetings with our staff from Apprenticeship and Training to develop a program where it would fit in with our Apprenticeship branch. Now, I understand that it has not worked as well as the member had wanted, but the first that the member had made myself aware of that difficulty was just a few weeks ago, so the member should be prepared to put true facts or accurate facts before this House.

Employment Training Programs

Government Commitment

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today we learned that 97 jobs would be permanently lost in this city‑‑97 jobs. The Premier accuses the official opposition of old‑think. Well, I would be delighted if we could get some new‑think from the government side of the House because there is no new‑think. New‑think would orchestrate that this government had a training modality, a purpose for young people, 97 of whom cannot look to CN for future employment as a result of the announcement today.

Will this government finally come up with a training strategy which will ensure that young people not only graduate from high school but go on to post‑secondary education in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we are very proud of some of the training initiatives that we have in place and that this government has not only supported in terms of money but also with the training power to support it.

I would just like to remind the honourable member that we have, in fact, added new courses in all three of our community colleges, we have extended courses in all three of our community colleges, and we have a program called Workforce 2000 which has been extremely beneficial in this province.

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Post-Secondary Education

Accessibility

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the honourable minister that she has in fact cut student financial aid to young people in this province, she and her government, so that it is now less than it was in 1990‑91. It was $13.2 million in 1991. It is $12.8 million in this budget. It is less than '90‑91. At the same time, under this administration, tuition fees at the University of Manitoba have increased by 81.9 percent‑‑81.9 percent and a cut in financial aid. What this means is that many, many young people cannot afford to access our post‑secondary educational institutions.

I want to know what the minister is going to do to make sure our young people get an education.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the honourable member. For this budget year, we have in fact added $690,000 to a student aid program in this province. In addition, our tuition fees, even with the predicted hike‑‑and it has not been approved, but if in fact at one of our universities if there is a predicted hike, our tuition fees are still the third lowest across Canada.

Student Aid

Emergency Assistance

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we get more double speech. You can talk about an increase of 5.7 percent when the drop the year before was 8.2 percent. So it is not an increase over '90‑91. It is a decrease. [interjection]

The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) yells from his seat: Our universities are so full. Our universities are becoming more and more full of part‑time students who cannot afford to go full time, and they cannot afford to go full time because of the actions of this government.

Will the Minister of Education tell this House today how she is going to direct an equivalent type of dollar, that the university has recognized is needed for emergency student aid, into her student aid program?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the honourable member that we are always looking at our student aid and that, at the moment, I am very pleased to say that we have in fact increased, as I answered in my last answer, our commitment to student aid. In addition, I have met with my counterparts across Canada to press the federal government for its continued assistance in the Canada Student Loans Program. I think our commitments to university education in general have been shown by the fact that our government has increased funding to universities by 3 percent and our neighbours next door to us have in fact decreased by 1 percent.

Universities

Tuition Fees

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, students at the University of Manitoba are facing fee increases of 16 percent this coming year, in addition to fee increases of 20 percent last year and 10 percent for every year this government has been in office. If you talk to high school students, as I did this morning, you will know that we are clearly facing a situation where the fees, the cost of universities, is becoming a deterrent for Manitoba families, and that should be an immediate and grave concern to any Minister of Education.

Mr. Speaker, I want to table a chart which demonstrates that since 1988 the percentage of total education costs borne by students and their families has risen steadily, from the 13 percent in 1988 to 15.5 percent in 1990 to 19.5 percent in 1992, and the offloading goes on.

My question for the minister is: What is her government's policy on university fees? What proportion of expenditures should be borne by students and their families‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about accessibility to university education, to post‑secondary education for students in this province, but I repeat, our tuition fees, even with the proposed increase, are the third lowest across Canada.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, it sounds like a vacuum of policy. There is no policy on university fees. Is it 20 percent? Is it 40 percent? Where is she going to draw the line?

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Wolseley, kindly put your question, please.

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Levels of Instruction

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Has the minister established any policies to help Manitoba universities maintain the levels of instruction in the light of continuing layoffs of staff and lab instructors? Is it the policy of this government to pile them high and teach them cheap?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about the remarks attributed to the type of university education that we offer here in this province.

I would like to remind the member again that as a government we have increased our commitment to universities by 3 percent this year. I think that is a very strong commitment, but universities are autonomous. It is up to the universities individually to then deal with their faculty associations and other associations, and they make their agreements as autonomous bodies.

Departmental Review

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, why has the minister continued to delay and procrastinate about the university review which she promised two years ago, 18 months ago, a year ago, six months ago, three months ago? Where is that review?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, when I became minister, I made a point of meeting with the four university presidents, with members of the student associations to make sure that I had some input in developing the scope and the mandate for that review, and that review will be announced as soon as possible.