LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, April 24, 1992

The House met at 10 a.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Kelly Dawn Graham, Nikki Corlett, Katie Kuivenhoven and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider a one‑year moratorium on the closure of the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Trish Minish, Gordon MacKenzie, Ken Twomay and others requesting the government consider restoring the former full funding of $700,000 to fight Dutch elm disease.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and

WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the program.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to announce the fourth offering of Manitoba Hydro Savings Bonds to the people of Manitoba.

HydroBonds are an exciting initiative that provide an opportunity for every family and every individual to participate directly as a builder and beneficiary in the Manitoba economy. Manitobans will again be given the opportunity to invest in the future of Manitoba Hydro and their province through Manitoba Hydro Savings Bonds, Series 4. Once again, HydroBonds are available only to Manitobans to enable residents and businesses alike the unique opportunity of investing in their home, their province.

As in past issues, HydroBonds, Series 4 will be issued in denominations as low as $100. HydroBonds will go on sale Tuesday, May 19, with the interest rate being announced May 15. The rate will be competitively priced with principal and interest in all bonds fully guaranteed by the Province of Manitoba. HydroBonds are available for a five‑year term, and purchasers can choose to have interest compounded over the five‑year period to have the interest paid monthly or to have the monthly or to have the interest paid yearly. Monthly interest is only available on purchases of $5,000 or more.

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With the last three issues, over 80,000 Manitobans have purchased HydroBonds, resulting in over $760 million being raised for Manitoba Hydro. This is a clear example of the pride the people of Manitoba have for their hydro resource and their province. To date, approximately $112 million in interest payments have been paid out to Manitoban Hydro bondholders, ensuring the benefits go to work in our province for our people.

Manitoba Hydro employs thousands of people, and through export sales, brings millions of dollars into our economy each year. Manitoba Hydro has grown and developed through the years to extend the benefits of electrical service throughout our province. Proceeds from the sale will provide a local source of funds to meet the financial requirements for continued development of this vast renewable energy resource to ensure the demands of future generations of Manitobans are met.

Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are already enjoying the benefits of three successful HydroBonds series. I encourage all Manitobans to share in this exciting opportunity with HydroBonds 4. Thank you.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Indeed, I would like to rise and respond to the ministerial statement issued today by the Minister of Finance, dealing with Manitoba Hydro Savings Bonds.

We have said in the past and we will say it again today that we support the program of HydroBonds. We think it is a positive program for Manitobans, and we have always believed that it is very, very positive for Manitobans to be investing in their own province.

We find it very interesting, Mr. Speaker, to see the members opposite bringing us good news in public enterprise. We know that members opposite have a terrible time with public enterprise in public Crown corporations. In fact, I recall many of the members opposite were campaigning in 1981 to sell some of Hydro's assets to private corporations. We like to see the conversion on the road to Damascus and the need for strong Crown corporations and strong public enterprises in this province.

I would ask also, Mr. Speaker, that while we are praising Hydro in this province and public enterprise generally, which is one of the stronger parts of our Manitoba economy right now with the decline at this present point in the private sector, that members opposite talk to their Nova Scotia brethrens. The Conservative Party in Nova Scotia is selling off their Hydro corporation which we think is the wrong way to go, and perhaps the Conservative Premier can talk to his fellow Conservative Premier in the province of Nova Scotia where they are going in the opposite direction.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, this is good for Manitoba and public Crown corporations are great for this province and that is why we support them.

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, it gives me some pleasure to rise again and comment to the minister that this is and has been a very good program. It is an opportunity for Manitobans to invest in this province and to see that capital remains in this province.

It is interesting that out of the some two dozen initiatives that this Finance minister has announced since he became Finance minister, this is the only one that has shown any real success and any ability to really produce any growth in this province. Quite seriously, we are in a very difficult position in this province, and the revenue generated from this, invested in this province, and the interest return to this province is a good thing. It is unfortunate though that this Minister of Finance is not more forthcoming with the results of other programs.

I have had orders for return that the minister has very expansively accepted and said, oh yes, we will get you all that information on what is happening with Vision Capital and other economic programs, and to date has produced nothing. He seems to be afraid to show us the results of all his initiatives with the exception of this one which he stands up in the House and speaks quite positively of.

It is a good program. It is one that should be supported, and I am pleased to see it is doing as well as it is.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us this morning, nine visitors from the Women's Committee of the Manitoba Government Employees' Association. They are under the direction of Ms. Myrna Phillips, a former Speaker of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this morning.

Also with us this morning, we have from the Sun Valley Elementary School, twenty‑six Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. Rempel. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this morning.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Free Trade Agreement

Impact on Manitoba

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, two studies have been released this week dealing with the Canadian‑U.S. Free Trade Agreement, one produced by the U.S. commerce department and another one produced by corporations in Canada.

The U.S. commerce department talks about the gains of the Free Trade Agreement, Mr. Speaker. In fact they talk about the gains in very glowing terms, where the deficit of trade between Canada and the United States has gone from a $12‑billion surplus in Canada's favour now down to half as much in the four years that the study includes dealing with free trade.

Mr. Speaker, this Premier (Mr. Filmon) has talked about positive parts of the Free Trade Agreement with Canada and the United States in terms of Manitoba, and there have been some positive parts in agriculture, but we see a deficit of trade of $1 billion right now, about double for Manitoba with the United States since the Free Trade Agreement came in.

We noted that when free trade was being discussed in this Chamber in 1988, the Premier said, and I quote: Our empirical study says that we will gain between 10,000 and 15,000 new net jobs in this province, and it will lower the unemployment rates in this province.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Can he produce the empirical studies, as Chair of the Economic Committee of Cabinet, on the total winners and losers and net benefits to the province of Manitoba of the Free Trade Agreement that he supported when the trade agreement was before us?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the best source of information for us in terms of dealing with the Canada‑U.S. free trade are the people of Manitoba. I had the opportunity, when we did the review of the North American free trade, to inquire of each and every sector as it relates to the impact of the Canada‑U.S. Free Trade Agreement.

While everybody recognizes that because of several other factors that have impacted on our economy, the value of the Canadian dollar, the recession taking place in Canada, that the impact has been minimal overall. Most felt that in the long run it is a pact that will certainly benefit Manitoba and Manitoba industries.

I do want to point out that while our trade situation with the United States diminished in 1990‑‑in part due to some of the matters that I have already touched on‑‑in 1991, our deficit with the United States actually shrunk by 18.7 percent, an improvement in terms of our trade position with the United States, certainly a sign that things are in fact going in the right direction, Mr. Speaker.[interjection!

Mr. Doer: Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) from his seat says competitiveness. When you go from a $450‑million deficit with the United States before free trade to over $1 billion and you reduce it by 18 percent, Mr. Speaker‑‑we have not seen the numbers‑‑it is not a very positive sign. No wonder Manitoba has doubled the national average in the last month for rising unemployment in the province of Manitoba.

Labour Adjustment Strategy

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In light of the statement made by the minister and the government that these trade results are due to the recession: Has the government reviewed the study that was released yesterday in Washington that said clearly that the recession is not the only factor for the change in free trade with the United States? In fact, the adjustment costs were seriously underestimated by the supporters of free trade‑‑supporters like the Premier (Mr. Filmon), like the members opposite. Adjustment was seriously underestimated, Mr. Speaker, and they further recommend that we have to have a very, very serious adjustment strategy dealing with any further trade. Now this was produced by corporations and the study was released in Washington.

I would ask the government: Does it concur with those findings of the corporations in their study that was released in Washington yesterday? Does it have any concrete adjustment strategies in place based on their meetings with the Ministers of Trade that the minister has met with, and dealing with adjustment strategies dealing with a proposed North American free trade agreement?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, first of all, we have recognized as well that it goes beyond merely the recession in terms of the impact of our trade relationship with the United States.

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I touched on at least one other area, and that has been the value of the Canadian dollar. In terms of all the reports that are prepared on Canada‑U.S. free trade, my department receives them and does do an analysis of them, not unlike the other reports we referred to in the House from the Royal Bank and other institutions.

In terms of the issue of adjustment provisions, clearly that is fundamental and important. I think as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) knows, in terms of the North American free trade agreement, we have said on many, many occasions in this House, we do not support a North American free trade agreement with Canada, U.S. and Mexico unless six fundamental conditions are met. One of those conditions is that adequate adjustment provisions be put in place.

That matter was once again addressed at our trade minister meeting as recently as a couple of weeks ago. Clearly it is an important condition of any North American free trade agreement.

Mr. Doer: I hate to remind members opposite it sounds like an echo from the pre‑1988 free trade agreement where they said, oh, we need adjustment strategies, and we trust the federal government will have adjustment strategies. There were absolutely no adjustment strategies dealing with the Canada‑U.S. trade agreement.

Manitoba workers and workers across Canada that are being laid off, many of them middle‑aged, Mr. Speaker, are absolutely being left‑‑I guess the Premier (Mr. Filmon) does not care about it‑‑but a lot of people are being left in the unemployment lines; 60,000 people are unemployed right now in this province.

The study further concludes‑‑

Point of Order

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would ask the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) to withdraw his remarks about whether or not I care about things. I care about employment. I care about improved economy for Manitoba. I care about jobs for Manitobans. I do everything possible to ensure that we as a government are putting in place the kind of policies that will foster that kind of investment.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

North American Free Trade Agreement

Impact on Manitoba

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Premier now would like to answer a question in this Chamber.

The study further goes on to say that there will be a significant hardship‑‑jobs will be lost, firms will go out of business and some industries will suffer, and particular areas that suffer may fall into long‑term decline with the proposed free trade agreement with Canada, U.S. and Mexico.

I would ask the Premier, has he got an empirical study that he has prepared, as Chair of the Economic Committee of Cabinet, to show that Manitoba will not be one of the areas which will decline, and we will not lose industries and jobs and opportunities in this province.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, based on the analysis that we have done in this province in the consultations with various industry sectors, we came up with six conditions that should apply to any North American free trade agreement. We have steadfastly stated in this Legislature and throughout the country and other fora that those are the conditions which must be met in order for any North American free trade agreement to be of benefit to Manitoba.

I just point out to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) that when he talks about cutting off trade, putting barriers to trade that he runs the risk, of course, of cutting off the things that have been able to build the economies of Canada and Manitoba. You take the recent example that is in today's paper about cutting off beer sales to the United States, and by cutting off American beer sales to Canada we save them from selling $30 million a year into Canada, and we lose $190 million a year of Canadian sales into the United States. We lose hundreds of jobs. We lose $160 million worth of net benefit in terms of sales by trade because we want to follow an ideologically blinkered policy of the New Democratic policy.

That is absolutely ridiculous, Mr. Speaker. That is over and over and over again the kind of losses that will be incurred if this country puts up barriers because the barriers are two‑way. If we put up barriers to trade from other countries, they put up barriers to our production and we lose because we are net exporters of goods over and over and over again, and we lose thousands of jobs by following that kind of ideologically blind course. It is wrong.

Hearing Disorder Screening

Program Funding

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey).

Winnipeg School Division No. 1, through the Child Guidance Clinic, has one of the finest prescreening programs for hearing difficulties in the country. In Winnipeg all kindergarten children are prescreened for hearing difficulties and losses. Now the program is in jeopardy because the Department of Health is cutting off a $43,000 grant that aids in the staffing of an audiologist position. In light of the need for departments to work together and the success of this program, does the Minister of Education agree with this decision to cut off the $43,000 grant for the audiologist?

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Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, in allocating limited resources‑‑and we dealt with this issue yesterday in my ministry of Health Estimates in terms of funding for agencies‑‑we made the decision to prioritize rather than take an across‑the‑board direction in terms of grants. We attempted to prioritize, and that was one of the reductions in grant support funding that we made. That does not in any way, shape or form disallow a reallocation of resource which is happening throughout the length and breadth of government‑provided services to meet critical needs. That opportunity to continue a good program exists and can and should be explored, Sir.

Mr. Chomiak: Speaker, my supplementary is to the Minister of Education.

Will the minister assure this House that she will contact the Minister of Health in light of the fact that she has made pronouncements that she will work together with other departments to insist that this grant be reinstated from Health or from some other department in order that the program be reinstated and not cut off?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, again my honourable friend, the New Democrat, from the comfort of opposition is saying the only solution to program delivery is more money, more spending, more taxes, more deficit. That is NDP old‑think. It is not even being emulated anywhere that an NDP party is in government. Consider Saskatchewan, 1 percent increase to Education and to Health. No, pardon me, that was Ontario at 1 percent increase, Saskatchewan is 2.8 percent decrease, Sir. From the comfort of opposition, New Democrats cry for more money to be spent. From the reality of government they ask for more management which has been the hallmark of this government, Sir.

Mr. Chomiak: My final supplementary will be to the Minister of Health.

Will the minister table in this House any cost‑benefit analysis he has on that program to show that it will decrease costs, in light of the fact that these people will have to go to more highly expensive hospitals to get this program and these kind of services? Will he table a cost‑benefit analysis to show how this government is going to save money by doing that?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend obviously missed the intent of the first answer that I gave to him and the first question he posed.

My honourable friend's only solution is to pour more money in. Mr. Speaker, what the system of health care, what the system of government funding needs is management around existing resources, because there is not anywhere in Canada where governments are having the luxury of saying let us continue to fund everything at the level we have already done and more.

Governments are asking managers throughout the length and breadth of government‑delivered services to manage better, to set priorities according to their budgets they have. The global budget allows that to happen. That is the request we are making in this case and in many others, Sir.

Manitoba Heritage Federation

Granting Authority

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, this government's decision to take the granting authority away from the Manitoba Heritage Federation in an attempt to politicize it is wrong. The minister has said that out of $712,000 that has been allocated out to the Manitoba Heritage Federation, $215,000 was used for administrative costs. That is wrong. In fact, 94 percent of the $712,000 was spent for the grants.

Will the minister now tell us the real reason why this government is taking away the granting authority from the Manitoba Heritage Federation?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I think the issue here is that the heritage community should be well served through allocation of Lotteries dollars that do make good things happen throughout the breadth of this province. We know that administratively we can deliver a program that will serve the heritage community in a better fashion with a peer process and with a volunteer component.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, the heritage community will be involved, and they will have an opportunity to ensure that the new program that is put in place will serve the community well.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong. The community was well served through the Heritage Federation. Is she trying to say that the Heritage Federation did not serve the heritage‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, my question is: Will the minister reconsider her decision to take away the granting authority and listen to what the Heritage Federation is trying to tell the government as opposed to making a decision without consulting with anyone?

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Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, there will be major consultation with the heritage community in setting up the new program.

I understand that the Heritage Federation met with many of the major heritage organizations just last night. In fact, major heritage organizations realize and recognize that a decision has been made, that we will be putting in place a new structure to administer grants to the heritage community in a very reasonable fashion with a volunteer component and commitment.

Mr. Speaker, in fact, the heritage community will be well served and we want to get ahead with our consultation and ensure that the program and the procedures that are put in place will serve the community.

Heritage Community

Granting Process

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, again, the heritage community was well served.

My question to the minister is: Will the minister assure this House that the decisions as to who gets Heritage grants will not be made from any politically appointed board or from the minister?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, the heritage community will be well served with the process that will be put in place in consultation with the community, with a peer process. I think that the entire heritage community will be the community that will make the decision on how well they are being served in the future.

Health Care System

Childbirth Classes

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): You will know, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has been justifying cuts in hospitals, beds and patient services in the name of health care reform. It is very disturbing to now see that this minister and this government is cutting back just as deep on community‑based services and prevention programs. This government has just eliminated total funding for the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education and in so doing has cut the only Spanish language childbirth preparation classes‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Considering that this‑‑

Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with your question, please.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I will get right to the question, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Yes, you will.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: On what basis could this minister justify cutting back the only association that deals with labour companion services for women who are isolated and without family supports, who provide preparation classes for multiple births, and for vaginal births after Caesarean sections, when this program saves money and keeps women and children healthy?

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the ministry of Health through regional services provides significant childbirthing classes. Through other areas of funded agencies, language instruction sensitive to newcomer languages are provided. The service will be maintained, Sir, but not in a different location, and that is where we are coming at management across the system to avoid the kind of duplication parallel funding that my honourable friend has always said should not happen.

When we make those kinds of adjustments, service capability to be in place elsewhere, my honourable friend says, no, we cannot. It is NDP old‑think revisited again where the answer is pour more money, never analyze outcome, never make any changes because that is the old way of doing things.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, why then would his own departmental staff in communicating this cutback to the Association for Childbirth and Family Education state clearly that some clients will undoubtedly be affected by the withdrawal of funding?

Will the minister, in light of this clear statement of an important service by his own department, now reinstate this $21,000 grant for this association?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, in the adjustment period of seeking those services where other language capabilities are available, there may be a period of time where maybe some individuals are not readily accessing the other and alternate services that are in place. That is an adjustment period potential only. The long‑run ability to deliver the services in fact, Sir, is there.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Would this minister reallocate over $21,000 in salary increases for this year alone for the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister of Healthy Public Policy, the executive directors of Health Promotion and Women's Health, which is precisely the size of the cutback to the Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education?

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Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I will go one better. I will suggest my honourable friend in the New Democratic Party give up some of their overspending on mailing of absolute balderdash to Manitobans and put that money toward health care.

Canadian Airlines International

Reservation Office Layoffs

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, on Wednesday of this week, we saw the loss of 97 jobs at CN Rail, and today we hear about the loss of airline jobs in the province of Manitoba. We have been informed that in January of this year, the senior vice‑president of customer service for Canadian Airlines International met with reservation employees and informed them that the Winnipeg reservation office and their 75 jobs do not have a future.

Can the Minister of Highways and Transportation indicate if he or his staff have had any discussions with Canadian Airlines International to discuss these layoffs in Manitoba?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Yes, my staff have been in touch with Canadian Airlines on the issue. We do not think that there is necessarily going to be a reduction in staff. According to the information we have received, we figure there are going to be benefits that are well accrued to people in Manitoba.

Centralization

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, we have a letter here to confirm these layoffs from the members of that particular company.

Will the Minister of Highways and Transportation confirm that Canadian Airlines International was considering Winnipeg as the location to centralize its weight and balance function but now has rejected Winnipeg at a loss of 75 to 100 jobs for this province?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): No, I cannot confirm that, but I want to indicate that we have grave concerns about the economic health of both our airlines. There has been ongoing discussion with the federal people, and we try and play our role in terms of making sure that the interests of Manitobans are going to be protected.

Employment Creation Strategy

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): In light of the information that the Premier said he was looking to protect the jobs in this province, we will give him a chance to do so now for his government.

Will the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), and Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) communicate with Canadian Airlines International to determine if there is a role that we can play in this province to preserve the jobs that are currently here and to bring new airline jobs to the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): That is a very general type of question. I can assure the member that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and my other colleagues in government are continually looking to see whether we can enhance job opportunities in this province.

Economic Growth

Full-Time Employment Decline

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, one of the indicators of deindustrialization is the conversion of full‑time jobs into part‑time jobs. After four years of Conservative government, five budgets and nearly two dozen important economic announcements, we have nearly 16,000 fewer full‑time jobs in this province than we had when they came to power.

I would like to ask the Minister of Industry and Trade how he accounts for this.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I think when we talk about the economy, we have to keep in context the national economy as part of our discussion. We have had this discussion in the House on occasions before. No province, no jurisdiction within Canada, is happy with their current unemployment rates. The good news is Manitoba is faring better than most other provinces within Canada. In fact, our unemployment rate is the third lowest of all provinces.

The projections for growth in this province in 1992 are among the best, the Conference Board of Canada predicting that we will have the third highest growth rate within Canada in 1992. When you go through the list of economic indicators, which I will gladly do at some point with the honourable member, in most areas the predictions for 1992 for the province of Manitoba are very encouraging, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, we are losing full‑time jobs at a rate twice that of the rest of Canada, twice that.

I would like to ask the Minister for Industry and Trade how he accounts for this loss.

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, that change in the structuring of the economy is not something that is unique to Manitoba. It is something that is in fact occurring in each jurisdiction across Canada. I think the important aspect of the discussion is what is the future for Manitoba, what are the opportunities for Manitoba. I have touched on the unemployment statistics.

When you look at capital investment opportunities in our province, we are projected to have the fifth highest growth of all provinces in Canada. In the manufacturing sector, we are predicted to have the highest growth in capital investment in all of Canada in 1992. Those kinds of things, Mr. Speaker, will lead to jobs for Manitobans.

Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, why is this province doing so much worse than the rest of Canada? That is the question I have for the Minister of Industry and Trade, and I would like him to address that one. Why is our rate of loss of full‑time jobs more than twice that of the rest of this country?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I think to a large extent I have answered the honourable member's question. There are restructurings occurring within the business community, within job opportunities within every province, but in terms of the overall performance of Manitoba, the overall unemployment rate of Manitoba, the predictions for Manitoba in 1992 are very encouraging as it relates to other provinces.

So, once again, as is normally the habit of the NDP and not traditionally the habit of the Liberals, the honourable member picks one isolated aspect of the economic indicators and likes to point to a negative aspect instead of looking at the positive aspects of our economic indicators in terms of where we are positioned in unemployment rates, where we are positioned in manufacturing investment, where we are positioned in overall investment, in terms of the future of Manitoba looking extremely favourable, in terms of the major economic indicators for 1992, Mr. Speaker.

North West Company

Employment Creation Strategy

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism talked about one isolated fact. There are 59,000 isolated facts. They are called unemployed in the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons we are losing jobs is because this government has a very strange way of conducting business. Yesterday, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism took part in a press conference at which time the province of Manitoba was losing 174 jobs as a result of the closure of the Hudson's Bay Company warehouse. At the same time, the minister was announcing 137 jobs being saved in the province. We are losing jobs.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is: Why has this government contributed almost half of the cost of this development without protecting the jobs of the 174 people who work for Hudson's Bay store in Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, in response to that question, again, as usual I cannot accept any of the preamble of the honourable member for Flin Flon when he talks about unemployment and unemployment rates. I have to remind him that the highest unemployment rate that this province has experienced goes back to November of 1982 when it was 10.8 percent, and we know who was the government of the day, and they should know what the outfall is of coming through a recession.

In terms of the specific questions about jobs, the member for Flin Flon is now doing the opposite of the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). In terms of full‑time employment, the impact on Hudson's Bay Company is 60 full‑time jobs. In terms of the impact of the announcement yesterday by North West Company is the creation immediately of 137 jobs in '93‑94 going to a high of 189 full‑time jobs.

The two decisions were not related. The Hudson's Bay Company made this decision in terms of their distribution system, as they are doing not only in Manitoba but across all of Canada in terms of how they handle their inventory. The good news for Manitobans is that North West Company, along with the Province of Manitoba, will be investing some $13 million, creating 189 full‑time jobs and creating an opportunity for a company that has sales of $400 million from Manitoba businesses to do procurement for that company, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Storie: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is beginning to believe his own press releases‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

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Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, there are no full‑time jobs as a result of the North West acquisition until next year.

My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and it is a simple question.

There are 174 people employed by Hudson's Bay Company today. Why has the government not moved to protect the interests of those 174 people by ensuring that they could transfer or some accommodation would be made by the North West Company for employment? They are in, essentially, the same kind of operation. Today we have learned that is not happening. Why?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, we have created an opportunity for those employees by assisting North West Company to establish 189 full‑time jobs right here in our province. North West Company indicated yesterday that they will be accepting applications in January of 1993, and that those full‑time jobs will be up to 137 jobs by 1994, going up to a high of 189 full‑time jobs, from a company that currently has its headquarters here in our province of 270 jobs, on top of that 28 stores in northern Manitoba, 140 stores in the rest of Canada and the opportunity for enhanced economic opportunities to providing services and supplies to North West Company.

Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, my final question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is: Why does Hudson's Bay say that none of the 174 people will be retained by North West? Why could the province not protect those jobs and have some of those people at least transferred into jobs that may be occurring over the next decade?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have to stand here in disbelief that the honourable member for Flin Flon is not supportive of a company that has its headquarters here in Canada, has 300 years of history here in Canada and is prepared to create 189 full‑time jobs right here in our province for Manitobans, for those employees of Hudson's Bay Company so that they can get re‑employment based on a decision that Hudson's Bay had made that was going to be made anyway. Those people would not have an opportunity for re‑employment, whereas today they do because of a decision of this government, a decision of the City of Winnipeg and North West Company‑‑absolute disbelief that they do not.

They stand there and they criticize job opportunities for Manitobans. Here are 189 full‑time jobs being created, and the NDP do not support that initiative, Mr. Speaker. Shame, I say to them.

Manitoba Heritage Federation

Political Interference

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Earlier this week the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship replied to one of my questions by saying that if we were setting policy for the Heritage Federation, we would be accused of political interference, yet two years ago this minister signed a contract with the federation representing 87 heritage organizations to communicate policies and priorities for heritage development.

Would the minister tell the House exactly what she has said to the Heritage Federation on those occasions when she has conveyed the policy and whether she in fact believes that that is political interference?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I have never in any way attempted to interfere with the ongoing operations of the Manitoba Heritage Federation. I believe that government has a responsibility to ensure that the dollars that are going out to the heritage community and indeed to all communities within the province of Manitoba are administered in an efficient and effective way to best serve the community.

Mr. Speaker, we are attempting to do that through a new process in consultation with the heritage community and the heritage organizations. The community will be well served through the new process.

Meeting Cancellations

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could I ask the same minister then: Why did she again break her contract with the federation to annually review the effectiveness of their results based upon agreed‑upon objectives and cancel six meetings with the federation and permit her deputy minister to cancel five more meetings with the federation?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier this week, I believe, to questioning, or last week, whenever it was, it was a budget decision to change the method that the heritage community would be funded under. As a result of it being a budget decision, it was announced to the Heritage Federation on budget day because of budget confidentiality. We are living up to the contract by giving them 90 days notice that in fact the contract would be terminated, as it states.