LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, April 27, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bob Kuz, Lucille Hiebert, Paul Beaudet and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the closure of Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and

      The AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and

      The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self‑government and the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and

      The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self‑government and a separate and parallel justice system; and

      On January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and

      Despite the All‑Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system.

* * *

      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and

      WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

      WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

      WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

      WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the program.

* * *

      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Dutch elm disease control program is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm trees; and

      WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources himself stated that, "It is vital that we continue our active fight against Dutch elm disease in Manitoba," and

      WHEREAS, despite that verbal commitment, the government of Manitoba has cut its funding to the city's DED control program by half of the 1990 level, a move that will jeopardize the survival of Winnipeg's elm trees.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the government of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to consider restoring the full funding of the Dutch elm disease control program to the previous level of 1990.

      As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

* (1335)

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have two reports to table:  The Annual Report of the Manitoba Research Council for 1990‑91; and the Annual Report of Industry, Trade and Tourism, and Fitness and Sport Directorates for 1990‑91.

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

     

Bill 79‑The Highways Protection and Consequential Amendments Act

 

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 79, The Highways Protection and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur la protection des voies publiques et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same now be received and read a first time.  His Honour the Lieutenant‑Governor having been advised of the contents of this bill recommends it to the House.  I would like to table the message from the Lieutenant‑Governor as well.

Motion agreed to.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Kirkness Adult Learning Centre, 18 students. They are under the direction of Laurel Johnson.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos).

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Federal Drug Patent Law

Government Position

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, we on this side are pleased to see the announcement of the Apotex facility here in Winnipeg.  The announcement today follows on other announcements previous to this with the RH Institute and other proposals being rolled into the new announcement today.

      In 1987 we had a resolution before this Legislature dealing with drug patent laws or the compulsory licensing laws of the country.  This Legislature was called upon to vote against the federal Conservative government in terms of the provision they were providing a drug patent law for the American multinational corporations and for the protection of consumers, our health care participants, and for the protection of the generic drug industry.

      Today the head or the president of the corporation very clearly called on all members of all political parties to join together to oppose the federal Conservative government's position on the drug patent law and drug licensing provisions, Mr. Speaker, and called upon all of us to protect the generic drug industry in this country for people in health care and for the benefit of drug companies like Apotex that is locating in this province.

      I would ask the acting Premier:  Will he change the government's position on the drug patent law, Mr. Speaker, and will they now join with the president of Apotex to oppose the federal government's position on compulsory licensing in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, not that I want to indicate to my honourable friend that in his question preamble, from 1987 to 1992, he has mixed apples with oranges, the resolution in 1987 and the subsequent legislation led to the investment decision by Apotex in Manitoba.  It had no compromise of that decision because that reinforced the 10‑year licensing protection, et cetera, that was the basis for Apotex's decision. What, Sir, is at issue, is a January 14 announcement by the federal government that they intend to change that, not the 1987 resolution my honourable friend likes to talk about, but the January 14 initiative of further extension of patent rights.

      Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend that the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has raised it at First Ministers' conferences.  I have raised it with the Health minister at a conference personally, and my honourable friend the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has likewise raised it with his federal counterparts because we share the concerns that were expressed today about a change in process that is successful and working for Canada.

Mr. Doer:  I would refer the members back to many of their own speeches in 1987 in this Chamber.  They refused to support consumer groups, health groups‑‑United Church and many other groups were talking about it down the road in the 1990s, the developments that could happen and could indeed happen.

      Mr. Speaker, I would ask the acting Premier:  Could he table any communication the government has with the Prime Minister changing the provincial Conservative government's position now to be in support of the generic drug companies in this province and in this country and in support of the provisions that were in the 1969 legislation which the president of Apotex is asking us to support in his announcement here today?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend again is trying to confuse the issue and trying to put the New Democrats on the leading edge of protection of generic drug manufacturing in Manitoba.  [applause]

      While they are applauding that attempt, which is not accurate, maybe they ought to talk to their Health critic and stop her from defending the profit making of the pharmaceutical drug companies that she has been doing for the last three months in this Chamber, a typical flip‑flop by the NDP when it is convenient to have two different policies to appeal to people at different times of the week or even the day.

      Mr. Speaker, we have consistently, with the federal government, supported the generic licensing potential, the protection provided to the name‑brand pharmaceutical manufacturers, which has led to the growth of the generic drug manufacturing industry in Canada, including the investment today.  We have, Sir, on a number of occasions, with a number of ministries, expressed our concern and our disappointment and our opposition to the January 14, 1992, announcement which changes the rules of the game.  We disagree with that.

      What my honourable friend is trying to do is mix apples and oranges and flip‑flop policy again.

* (1340)

Mr. Doer:  First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely delighted that this Conservative government has flip‑flopped on their position on drug patent laws.  Whatever kind of provision or rhetoric they want to use to justify it, I do not care.  We are happy that they have changed their position, and we are happy that they are now claiming to be fighting the federal Conservative government that is now trying to extend their 1992 announcement, the generic drug provisions that have put our generic drug industry in jeopardy.

      I would ask the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey):  Can he specifically outline what communication the government has had? Have they raised this with the Prime Minister?  Have they raised that with other First Ministers at the meeting?  Does he have written communication to indicate their change now to oppose the federal Conservative Party extension of the drug patent law in this country?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased if my honourable friend would now speak to the critic that sits beside him to get her off the case of defending multinationals and pillaging our Pharmacare system.

      Mr. Speaker, in 1987, the issue was Bill C‑22, and no one is saying to change that, so do not let my honourable friend try to mislead the people of Manitoba.

      Not only has the Premier (Mr. Filmon) raised it at the First Ministers' meeting, the January 14, 1992, further extension of patent rights which we disagree with, the Finance minister (Mr. Manness) has raised it directly with the Honourable Mr. Wilson. My colleague the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has raised it with his colleagues, and I have raised it, Sir, with the Minister of Health federally because it is not an appropriate change.

      The current system is envisioned in C‑22; 1987 is appropriate, leading to investment, leading to diversification in the economic basis of western Canada, bringing the drug manufacturing away from Toronto and Montreal and putting it where it should be, in Winnipeg and western Canada.

 

Federal Drug Patent Law

Impact on Labour Force

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  More members of the Chamber could have been at the Apotex ceremony this morning and watched the public spanking of three Tory cabinet ministers, including the Premier (Mr. Filmon), over the Conservative drug policy which this government supported.

      Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.  Dr. Sherman indicated very clearly that the implications of Mr. Wilson's unilateral decision with respect to the elimination of compulsory licensing would mean the end of the generic drug industry.

      Can the minister indicate what steps he has taken or his department has taken to identify how many jobs that may cost Manitobans or the industry we are supposedly nurturing?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Firstly, Mr. Speaker, as is becoming the pattern far too often, I have to correct the honourable member's preamble.  I was at that announcement, and there was nothing but accolades from Dr. Sherman and Apotex as it relates to the job of the province of Manitoba.

      Dr. Sherman knows very well, as the opposition party should know, that we have continually supported the system as it currently exists with compulsory licensing.  I have supported it at Trade ministers' meetings.  I have written Michael Wilson back on March 20 of this year outlining very clearly our support for the current system and why we support the current system in terms of what it does to health care costs here in our province and the incredible investment opportunity it presents.

      So I would suggest to the honourable member that he talk directly to Dr. Sherman and get his facts right for a change when he comes into the House.

Mr. Storie:  The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism did not answer the question about how many jobs it is going to cost.

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

* (1345)

 

Federal Drug Patent Law

Impact on Drug Costs

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  My subsequent question is to the Minister of Health, I guess.

      Dr. Sherman also said that this road was going to lead inevitably to higher drug prices.  My question to the Minister of Health is:  Can the minister tell us today what these federal initiatives are going to cost the people of Manitoba by way of Pharmacare, and individuals by way of increased drug costs?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, that is not an answer that can be precisely determined, but if the federal government, in their February 14, 1992, announcement carries on the past, it will lead to higher drug prices.

      That is why, Sir, we have opposed that move at all stages that we can in this government, from the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the Finance minister (Mr. Manness), Industry, Trade and Tourism, myself.  We have been consistent.  We have not tried to mix apples and oranges.

      Talk about Bill C‑22, 1987, which is leading to investment in the generic industry in Manitoba, not denying it.  What we are opposing, Sir, as Dr. Sherman is opposing, is the change proposed by Michael Wilson, January 14, 1992, as a result of GATT discussions.  We think it inappropriate because it changes a successful generic licensing and development system in Canada that has benefitted all Manitobans, all Canadians and continues to do so.

 

Government Strategy

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, Dr. Sherman said it was going to cost us jobs and cost the Pharmacare system and the people of Manitoba money.  He also said it threatened medicare.

      Can the Minister of Health tell us what he is going to do, other than bluster in this Legislature, to protect medicare, protect the generic drug industry and create jobs in Manitoba?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  The first thing I am going to attempt to do at all times is not fall victim to what I call the NDP Leader's disease, and you know what that is, Sir. It is mixing apples and oranges and attempting to create a false impression amongst the people of Manitoba.

      Mr. Speaker, we have consistently made the case ever since Michael Wilson, on January 14, announced formally what we were concerned about and made our objections to that change in policy by Mike Wilson as proposed for the GATT negotiations, because we believe it inappropriate for the Canadian context, for the Manitoba context because it has negative impacts on our ability to have the investments of Apotex in terms of high‑tech, world‑leading industries which are there under the current system for Manitoba to harness because we are the right place to invest for the right reasons, Sir.

 

School Closure Guidelines

Ministerial Review

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, before I begin my question, I want to thank the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Ducharme) for having delivered to me a Manitoba Senior Citizens' Handbook, obviously as a direct result of my having turned 50 yesterday.

      Mr. Speaker, last year many rural Manitobans and indeed those who came from rural Manitoba watched with dismay while the Cartwright senior high school was closed through the transfer of students to Killarney, which violated, if not the law or not the guidelines, certainly violated the spirit of those guidelines.

      Well, last week, Mr. Speaker, I was in Woodridge, Manitoba, and their elementary school will be closed this June.  Last year, they were told by their school division that they could remain open if the student enrollment was between 17 and 20.  It was expected to be 24 until the school division then changed the transfer policy which enabled parents to remove their children from their designated school for the very first time.

      Will the Minister of Education now review the school closure guidelines?  Will she inform school divisions throughout this province that not just the letter of those guidelines, but the spirit of the guidelines is to be followed?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  I am very concerned, as is this side of the House, about schools which may need to be closed in rural Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, and have made every effort with my department to meet with school divisions and to assist those divisions where they have concerns to perhaps look at alternatives and also to explore with them their very specific situation.

 

Education System

Transportation Policy Review

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  It is recommended in the province of Manitoba, through again guidelines of the Minister of Education, that no elementary school child should have to spend more than one hour on a bus to go to or from school.  Well, the Woodridge elementary students, six‑ to 12‑year‑olds, will now be expected to get on a bus at 3:18 in the afternoon.  They will then go on a joy ride around La Broquerie for 20 minutes until the older students get out.  They will then join the older students and start the process home.  They will be on the bus, some of them, for one hour and 43 minutes.  We are talking about six‑ to 12‑year‑olds.

      Will the minister now review her transportation policy and inform the Seine River School Division that this is an unacceptable transportation policy for elementary school children?

* (1350)

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  As I said a moment ago, wherever these issues and these specific concerns arise across the province, I am more than happy to talk about the specific situation with the school division and concerned families from that division.

 

Boundary Review

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Talking is not going to solve the problem for these children.  The tragedy is that if these children could go to the nearby school, they could go to one 15 minutes away; only it happens to be in Piney, Manitoba in another school division.

      Will the minister now admit that we need to have a review of school division boundaries in the province of Manitoba?  Will she recommit herself to her Premier's (Mr. Filmon) commitment of February 18, 1992, to the Manitoba Teachers' Society and begin that review of school divisions in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  We will not be doing a review of school boundaries at this time because, as I made very clear when I made the announcement, the education system in Manitoba presently has a great number of issues they are dealing with.  At that time, I also made it clear that school divisions may negotiate with other divisions to set up opportunities for students within their divisions, and a school boundary review is not required for that kind of negotiation.

 

Grain Export Licence Removal

Government Position

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, the Wheat Board and orderly marketing system have been under growing pressure from a wide variety of sources from such predictable sources as U.S.‑based grain companies to such unlikely sources as former Liberal minister Otto Lang and shockingly even the Conservative minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Charlie Mayer.  He attacks that which he is empowered and entrusted to protect, Mr. Speaker, through such actions as abolishing oats from the Wheat Board, removing the two‑price wheat system and now, the most shocking of all by the federal Conservatives, the removal of the export licences for grain moving to the U.S.

      I ask the Deputy Premier:  Can he explain to this House whether he agrees with his federal cousins in Ottawa in the removal of the B 13 export declaration for grain being trucked to the U.S., and does he now agree that this is a serious threat to the authority and the effectiveness of the Wheat Board?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that the federal government, over the past few years, has done more for western Canadian agriculture in supporting than any previous government in the history of this country.

      As it relates to the trade that has developed between the United States and Canada, this province, over the last three years, has benefitted tremendously in the volume of product that has gone into the United States market via the Canadian Wheat Board.

      I, Mr. Speaker, can assure you that this government will do everything we can to make sure that the farmer is put in the best position possible to maximize the benefits for the price which they receive as well as maintaining the integrity of the marketing system that has been put in place in this country.

 

Reinstatement Correspondence

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, will this Deputy Premier table any correspondence that he or his Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) or indeed his Premier (Mr. Filmon) have had with the federal ministers Mayer, McKnight, Jelinek or any other ministers on this issue, asking for the immediate reinstatement of the export licence for grain moving to the U.S., and if there is no such correspondence, why is there none?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I have no correspondence personally.  I will ask the Minister of Agriculture to respond to that question in detail when he is able to do so.

      As far as the government's position is concerned in dealing with the export of products, it is a position that we have taken that we have to maximize our export opportunities.  As far as the information the member is bringing to this Legislature, I am sure there will be a further response from the Minister of Agriculture.

 

Government Position

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, is this Deputy Premier now saying in this House that he is supporting the removal of the authority of the Wheat Board for grain going to the U.S., destined to U.S. markets, being trucked?  Is that what this minister is saying?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier):  No, it is not, Mr. Speaker.

* (1355)

 

Council on Nursing Education Status

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, last week in Estimates, I questioned the Minister of Health on the status of the Ministerial Council on Nursing Education, a body that is less than two years old.  The minister said then that there had been no change in status except for the resignation of the chair, Professor Trevor Anderson.  Now it appears in fact that this council has been disbanded and its activities suspended until some unknown date in the future.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he would like to have this opportunity now to correct the record to eliminate this false information on the record and explain the status of the Council on Nursing Education.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend had one thing right.  The chairman of the nursing council had tendered his resignation, and I had discussions with him very recently about that.  That is about the only thing that is accurate, Sir.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, would the minister then explain the February 17 minutes of this council, which indicate, and I quote:  The chair stated that the Deputy Minister of Health had proposed a moratorium on council's activities and had announced his intentions that the Ministerial Council on Nursing Education suspend its activity for some months.

Mr. Orchard:  That is significantly different than my honourable friend's allegation that the whole council has been disbanded and thrown to the wind.  Get your facts straight when you come to Question Period with these allegations, these rumours and this fearmongering.

      Yes, without a chairperson, Sir, the activities of the council are suspended until we find a new chairperson.  I will even go further, my honourable friend.  Should we get into the discussion of the LPN nursing issue, we will have new members on the council and a replacement of some members to put a focus on LPN nursing.  Will my honourable friend say then, oh, we are disbanding the old council?  Of course, she will.

 

Chairman Resignation

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Would the minister like to correct the record and give full reasons for Professor Anderson's resignation, which according to the minutes of the last meeting of this council, was partly related to the lack of communication between the ministry of Health and this council?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I do not have to correct the record.  He had an interim report which we have accepted, Sir, and that is all that my honourable friend should be concerned about, because the collaborative program at the Health Sciences Centre accepted students last fall, will graduate students in baccalaureate‑prepared nursing in collaboration between the University of Manitoba faculty of nursing and the Health Sciences Centre school of nursing.

 

Economic Growth

Retail Trade Sector

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, last Friday, when I asked the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) why Manitoba had lost some 16,000 full‑time jobs in the last four years this government has been in power, the Minister of Finance from his seat invited me to ask questions about retail trade, so I thought I would take him up on his invitation today.

      Mr. Speaker, if we had today the same proportion of retail sales in this country that we had in 1988, despite the recession, there would be some $300 million more retail activity in this province in this year than there currently is.  I would like to ask the Minister of Finance why, after four years of his program, this situation exists.  Why has his program failed so significantly?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I refute the preamble of the member, at least the facts behind it. I just point out to him the press articles as recently as last week indeed where Manitoba was lauded for its position in retail actual sales, growth, vis‑a‑vis other provinces in Canada for the month of February.

      As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I think the member would be glad to hear I just had an opportunity to look at the early forecast for the month of April and once again, sales, actual sales are far beyond those that had been forecast.  Might I point out that the forecasted levels certainly were in a range acceptable or comparable to all other provinces across Canada.

      Sales are occurring in our province, yes, in a fashion that maybe is not as robust as we would like to see, but let me say, Mr. Speaker, vis‑a‑vis other provinces in Canada, our retail sales are certainly at a very high level.

Mr. Alcock:  Well, Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada says that the minister is wrong.  We fell further than the rest of the country.  We lost a greater proportion of the share than Canada did, and we are not recovering as fast.  I would like the Minister of Finance to explain to us why his policies are failing.

* (1400)

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, they are not failing.  Again, the growth for Manitoba at 1 percent is the strongest among provinces.  Only B.C. is coming second to us.  That was in the month of February.  As far as sales tax revenue falloff from forecast, in terms of the '91‑92 fiscal year, we are no different than other provinces.  As a matter of fact, if one wanted to look at forecasted revenues '91‑92, Manitoba, the grab bag of all of our revenues, and wanted to look at them vis‑a‑vis other provinces, they would see that ours have held relatively more stable than most other provinces.

      I say to the member, obviously he is wanting to look selectively at some activity over the last several years.  I am forecasting what is happening over the last several months.  I am here to tell you, Mr. Speaker, and anybody who wants to listen that we are holding vis‑a‑vis other provinces.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, sales are up one month to another. Year to year, we are down some $300 million.  There would be $317 million more retail activity in this province if we had just held constant.  We have not; we have lost badly.  I would like the Minister of Finance to explain why we have lost that $300 million in retail activity in this province.

Mr. Manness:  Well, Mr. Speaker, not accepting the member's figures at all, in case he is not aware, the national economy is in recession, has been for the best part of two years.  That is well known.

      Mr. Speaker, we have also, in the province of Manitoba, had a lower rate of inflation than any other province.  The member obviously knows that those provinces that have higher rates of inflation, particularly Ontario up to a year ago, B.C. through the stretch, naturally that is manifest in increased nominal rates of growth beyond Manitoba, purely as a result of inflation.  Those are‑‑

Mr. Alcock:  Wrong, Clayton.

Mr. Manness:  Well, the member says, "wrong."  The member seems to be so right at everything he says, in his own mind at least, but I say to him, Mr. Speaker, revenues in Canada and taxation in almost every province, indeed every province, are not what they had been forecast to be.  I find that unfortunate.  I wish that were not the case, but the fact is, we are in a national recession whether the member recognizes it or not.

 

Core Area Initiative Program

Economic Impact

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Mr. Speaker, for two years, two Tory governments have jeopardized Winnipeg's future.  They have offered no new programs or joint initiatives for an inner city with the highest unemployment rate in western Canada, the highest high school drop‑out rates in the West and with one of the lowest levels of public and private investment in Canada.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs:  Has he investigated the impact of those lost two years on the absolute economic decline of the city and on the lost opportunity costs for both the city and the province, and will he table that report?

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, the member for Wolseley, in referring to Core Area Initiative programming, should well know that in fact the program was extended for a year in order to ensure that the money that was allocated in the original program was spent and those programs were carried out, those people were employed and those people were trained.  All of those things would not have happened had that program not been extended for that additional year.

Ms. Friesen:  Will the minister confirm that the decline of capital investment and the loss of training opportunities as a result of the ending of core area funds two years ago have played a significant role in the comparatively poor economic performance of Winnipeg and that the economic compounding of this will also handicap us in whatever future economic recovery is possible?

Mr. Ernst:  Mr. Speaker, I find it quite surprising that the member for Wolseley would try and translate an economic recession that is at least North American if not worldwide into a reduction in programming in the core area for which she is wrong.  That program, the training programs for Core Area Initiative, are ongoing today.

Ms. Friesen:  Will the minister confirm that the federal government's contribution to the new urban agreement consists of a repackaging of existing programs representing no new money from a federal government whose entire economic strategy has been to transfer more than a thousand Manitoba jobs to Edmonton and Montreal?

Mr. Ernst:  Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the House on several occasions previously and to the member on more occasions than that, we are still in discussions with our two partners with respect to the potential for a new agreement for Winnipeg.  We are carrying on those discussions and are hopeful that in the very near future we will have a program that will be of extreme benefit for all Winnipeggers put into place for the next five years.

 

Social Assistance

Off-Reserve Status Indians

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, the jurisdictional dispute involving social assistance for treaty Indians is continuing.  The federal government says it will not pay.  The provincial government says it will not pay.  Now cities such as Thompson are deciding that if they have to pick up the burden, they may not pay either, leaving the aboriginal people who are on social assistance being the victims.

      I ask one straightforward question to the Minister of Family Services, and this is on behalf of those individuals.  Will he assure them that the province will not sit idly by and see a situation develop whereby they will lose what little they have in terms of social assistance?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  The question of the jurisdiction for the paying of social allowances is one that we have been dealing with for over a year.  Our position on this has not changed.  It is the obligation and the responsibility of the federal government to pay for the social allowances for status Indians off reserve.  We are currently working with MAUM and UMM officials who support us in this initiative, and we are asking the federal government to live up to that responsibility that they have maintained for decades.

Mr. Ashton:  In supplementary, Mr. Speaker, and once again on behalf of those individuals:  What assurance will the minister give to the aboriginal people who once again are being caught in these kinds of jurisdictional disputes, that they will not lose what little they have?  These are social assistance recipients. What assurance can he give those aboriginal people?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, when we last met with the aboriginal leadership, they were onside with the Province of Manitoba in demanding that the federal government live up to those responsibilities.  We are onside with the aboriginal leadership, UMM and MAUM, and we will insist that the federal government pick up those costs that they have been responsible for since the 1960s.

 

Social Assistance

Off-Reserve Status Indians

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we can argue about who is going to take what side, but I ask a question.  I will perhaps ask it as a follow‑up to the Minister of Native Affairs.

      What assurance will he give that these people will not be cut off social assistance, or are we going to have to rely on the same government that also has lost the Northern Development Agreement for northern Manitobans, which is a lousy record of dealing with the federal government?  Are these aboriginal people going to be the next victims, Mr. Speaker?

       Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs):  Mr. Speaker, I would not want to abuse the rules of the Legislature and take several minutes to point out the proactive and the initiatives that have been started in northern Manitoba to assist the educational programs and the economic development programs to try and make sure that there are meaningful jobs for the aboriginal people.  That is what the aboriginal leadership is asking for.  They are asking for meaningful programs and opportunities for their people, not welfare.

      On the question of making sure that there are payments, my colleague the Minister of Family Services, municipal governments and ourselves have been working very hard to make sure the federal government lives up to their responsibility.  Maybe the member for Thompson would put his position forward on the record as to where his party stands.  Do they support us, or do they not?

* (1410)

 

Child Care Workers Salary

Enhancement Grants

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, the average warehouse worker in Canada earns 58 percent more than the average child care worker, even though child care workers, two‑thirds of them, have post‑secondary education.

      The turnover rate for Manitoba child care workers is now 30 percent annually.  Ontario, even in the midst of a recession, is providing $30 million additional funding to raise the salary of child care workers.

      In light of these abysmal salary levels and very high turnover rates, why has this government, through its fee restructuring program of last spring, eliminated the Salary Enhancement Grant for child care workers in daycare?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the honourable member likes to bring forward examples from Ontario.  I have been trying to stay away from referring to Ontario, but I will tell you, if you want a $14‑billion deficit or a comparable one in Manitoba, there is a tremendous number of things we can do.

      The report that the honourable member refers to was a national report dealing with the wages of daycare workers.  I would point out that only Ontario has a higher rate of pay for daycare workers than Manitoba does.  Manitoba places second in terms of the average salary of daycare workers across Canada.

Ms. Barrett:  Second out of 10 when even the first out of 10 is 50 percent of‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

 

Private Child Care Centres

Government Support

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Why is this government continuing to support private for‑profit daycare centres when the average salary for those child care workers is 25 percent less than the even‑below‑poverty wages paid to nonprofit centres?  Why are you continuing to support‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the vision of our government is that people should have a choice of what level and kind of daycare they wish to access.

      I point out that the member for Wellington and her party have only one vision of daycare, and that is not one that we subscribe to.  We support family daycare, we support the daycare centres, and we also support private daycare so that Manitobans can have a choice in what kind of daycare they wish to access.

 

Child Care Workers

Salary Enhancement Grants

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, why is the provincial government cutting its support programs for child care workers' salaries through the elimination of the Salary Enhancement Grant and other elements of the fee restructuring program when the Manitoba Child Care Association and several‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):