LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, April 29, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  I must inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker and, therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask the Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) to take the Chair. PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Madam Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay):  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

      The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba; and

      The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital and view it as a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and

      The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occur; and

      The administration of the hospital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1.3 million; and

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

* * *

      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and

      WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

      WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

      WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

      WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the program.

* (1335)

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to table the 1990‑91 Annual Report for the Department of Rural Development.

      I would also like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1992‑1993 Departmental Expenditure Estimates.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all members of the House to the public gallery, where we have with us this afternoon seventeen Grade 9 students from Viscount Alexander School.  These students are under the direction of Ms. Amelie Gauthier.

      Also with us this afternoon, we have 10 visitors in the public gallery from Bemidji State University, under the direction of Professor Alexander Nadessan, guests of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

      Additionally, we have forty Grade 5 students from Royal School, under the direction of Mrs. James.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of Manitoba.

      On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Risk Area 12

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  A year ago, confusion reigned supreme in this province with regard to GRIP that was just being introduced by this government, and the government was panicking at that time as to the sign‑up levels that would happen.

      The minister promised, with regard to Risk Area No. 12, that he would deal with the concerns that they were raising, specific concerns that district Risk Area No. 12 was raising with regard to the soil classification and coverage levels that were being offered in that particular area.  On June 7, and again on June 19, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) confirmed in writing that he would implement any recommendations that were made by the committee that was set up to review soil classifications and coverage levels in Area 12, and he would implement them for the 1991 coverage year.

      Then on April 23, 1992, this year, the trust that these producers had in this government and this minister was broken when the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) told the producers from Area 12 that there will be no changes in the 1991 coverage levels regardless of the report by that committee.  There would be no changes.

      I want to ask this Minister of Finance why he chose to undercut the written commitment by his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture with regard to legitimate coverage changes for 1991 in Risk Area 12.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to tell the member that we recognized a year ago that there was some difficulty there.  I set in place a committee with two farmers, and I asked those farmers to give me some names as nomination.  I picked two people from that list.  I asked them to go through and try to identify on some scientific basis some reason that I could go forward to the federal partner and ask for consideration for 1991.  I also asked that committee to report by the fall of 1991.

      That committee has been working over a course of time.  They have used some scientific information generated by a university professor.  I have written to the federal minister back in June of last year and again this month of this year asking him to consider the information from that committee relative to 1991. On both occasions, the federal minister has said no to me.

      The committee has yet to submit its final report.  I understand they have information to gather, and the committee is to review it one more time before it comes to me.  That is where it is at.  We have set the committee in place.  They worked to establish that the methodology used by crop insurance coverages in Risk Area 12 versus 32 soils was really different than what they had in place.  I have asked the federal minister for his consideration, and in both cases he has said no.

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Risk Area 12

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Madam Deputy Speaker, we know what the difference is.  We know that the difference is $10 per acre, and the committee has made its findings known.  The minister does not have to wait for a final report.  It is $10 per acre, it is up to $7,500 for a farmer of 750 acres.

      I asked the Minister of Finance:  Who are these farmers supposed to believe?  The Minister of Finance, who is rebutting the statements made by his Minister of Agriculture, or are they supposed to believe the Minister of Agriculture when he says that he will honour the recommendations of that committee?

* (1340)

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  I am not rebutting anybody's statements.  I indicated to the meeting on Monday evening that indeed we had notice of a letter from the federal government overtop of the signature of Mr. McKnight that indicated they would not consider retroactivity.  That was the essence of the statement that was made.  Indeed the member seems to have had that information shared with him, because it is the essence of the question that he has put.

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Risk Area 12

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Madam Deputy Speaker, clearly, this government is giving two sides to the same story.  They are not coming clean with the producers of Manitoba.  I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture now:  Will he admit that the GRIP coverage was incorrectly based on unfactual information, incorrect information, with regard to crop insurance data, and will he now commit to honouring the written commitment he made last year to implement those changes so the producers know in fact what kind of coverage they are going to get for the last coverage year?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Madam Deputy Speaker, crop insurance has been in place in Manitoba since 1960.  A lot of methodology changes have occurred over time. Because GRIP is now another major element, in other words, price insurance, another major element of risk protection, was brought into being in 1991, a lot of the difficulties that existed in crop insurance for some time suddenly became more apparent to producers.  We based it on that because farmers on a task force recommended that that be the basis.  It is the only basis of information that exists.

      I recognize the difficulty in Risk Area 12; that is why I appointed a Soils Review Committee.  I also identified that there are a number of other problems with the overall Crop Insurance Program in this province, and that is why nine producers and one professor emeritus from the University of Manitoba are appointed to a Crop Insurance Review to review the program for the entire province and make recommendations to the two levels of government.  That process is in place, and we expect them to report in due course.

      Yes, there are some changes.  There are some methodologies that need to be looked at.  We recognize that, but we want the players in the game, the producers, to be part of the process of making the recommendations.

 

Northern Flood Agreements

South Indian Lake Legal Expenses

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

      Yesterday and today there are news reports dealing with the fact that a tentative settlement with the South Indian Lake community has been reached with Manitoba Hydro.  There are further reports that an appalling sum of money is going to be forwarded as part of the tentative settlement to legal counsel, an amount of money of approximately 20 percent of an $18‑million settlement or approximately $3 million.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Premier rightly said he was appalled and shocked at the amount of money that was in the tentative agreement.  I would ask the Premier:  What action is the government going to take about that amount of money that I think most Manitobans would want to see going to the community, not to one individual lawyer?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Madam Deputy Speaker, indeed I think all of us are outraged at the prospect that a contingency fee should be paid to any consultant on behalf of the Indian bands that would siphon off literally one‑sixth of the money paid by government legitimately to the interest and the benefit of the citizens of one of those northern flood communities or, in this case, South Indian Lake, with respect to flooding damages from hydro projects back in the 1970s.

      We are outraged at the thought that an individual should be paid this amount, and the matter of course, when it was brought to our attention, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) indicated that outrage and that concern that the people who should benefit from such a settlement would not benefit from such a settlement.

      Regrettably, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is one of the things that is a product of local community governance, that is, the governance of the South Indian Lake band and a committee that they formed, which was called the Community Association of South Indian Lake, after public hearings, deciding to accept this settlement.  We do not believe it is appropriate.  We have certain mechanisms in place to attempt to avoid that from happening, that such a large amount should be paid to a consultant on behalf of the band, and we are obviously examining all of those features that are in the agreement to attempt to ensure that such a large amount does not get paid to a consultant and should in fact get paid directly for the benefit and in the hands of the community.

* (1345)

Mr. Doer:  Madam Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) today and last night referred the issue to the Law Society of Manitoba.  Certainly, the Law Society of Manitoba is equipped to deal with inappropriate and fraudulent billings.  It appears to us though that based on the mayor's comments that he had thought that the legal partner had done a very good job for the community, the issue here is the kind of agreement and the kind of greed for money that is going to go to this one individual lawyer and not to the community.

      The Deputy Premier yesterday said that he had not approved the tentative agreement.  When one considers the fact that both Manitoba Hydro and the local community governance reports back to the Minister of Northern Affairs and to the Minister of Hydro who are in fact the same person, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey)‑‑he stated yesterday in media reports and again this morning on radio and other reports, Madam Deputy Speaker, TV reports, that he is able to do something with this agreement, that he has not approved it yet.

      Would the Premier advise us whether they will be approving this agreement, or will they be requiring a reinvestment of the money that is going to the lawyer, to the community, as it is intended?

Mr. Filmon:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I have expressed on many occasions that this government wants the money that comes out of the various negotiations to go to the people, to those Indian bands and their residents, and I have said this publicly.  We have said in the course of any negotiations that there will not be high fees paid to consultants, to lawyers, to people on behalf of the bands.

      I would say that as part of the self‑government approach that the bands continue to bring with them consultants whom they are paying very high amounts of money to.  In this particular case, the community of South Indian Lake not only took the precaution of setting up a community association to do negotiations, but held public hearings in which the community gave authority to the mayor to enter into such agreements.

      I might say that indeed the offer has not been finalized, and the agreement has not been finalized.  The offer is subject to a particular clause that is within the offer that says, quote:  No portion of these settlement proceeds shall be used to pay a contingency fee except to a barrister and solicitor entitled to practise in and for the province of Manitoba and then only in complete accord with the requirements of The Law Society Act of Manitoba.  Further, no fee determined as a percentage of the final settlement proceeds shall be paid without court approval.

      So, in fact, the kind of scenario that was portrayed in the news report would not legitimately be able to be done.  We are examining all of the aspects of this and attempting to determine whether or not, in accordance with the material that has been prepared for a potential settlement, we can assure ourselves as well as the residents of the community that these fees will not indeed be paid to expensive consultants and lawyers, but rather go to the benefit of the community.

Mr. Doer:  Madam Deputy Speaker, on May 30, 1991, the former minister said the same thing in the House about, quote:  I am disgusted at the amount of money going to particular consultants and lawyers.

      I recognize it is a delicate balance.  It is a delicate balance on the issue of self‑governance‑‑even though this is not an aboriginal community, it is a local government district‑‑and the negotiations.

      However, the minister said yesterday that management of Northern Affairs and management of Hydro were involved in the negotiations, and he was not aware of those negotiations and the particulars in them.

      Given the fact that the previous minister has expressed his outrage at this kind of issue, and given the fact the Premier has expressed it and the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) yesterday, how are we going to get a system in place so that those kinds of considerations can be considered in the negotiations which the government in this case is on both sides of the table with the community to be reporting back to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), so that we can have a balanced approach with the primary goal of having those funds go legitimately to the community members who are directly affected by the flooding?

Mr. Filmon:  Surely the member for Concordia is not suggesting that negotiations be handled by ministers only.  There has to be staff involved in the negotiations.  There have to be experts. There has to be those who can provide the financial and legal background that is needed to enter into an agreement.

      Because we‑‑the former minister, the current minister, the Premier, this government‑‑did not want to have this sort of thing happen, we insisted on this kind of clause in there, and the clause states very clearly, no fee determined as a percentage of the final settlement proceeds shall be paid without court approval.  It further identifies the fact that this sort of thing cannot happen as part of the agreement.

      We are going to ensure that the terms that we have insisted on to protect the community and to protect the taxpayer are indeed followed, and that would be in accordance with our wishes as a government and with our policy as a government and indeed in accordance with what I think the people of Manitoba expect of us.

* (1350)

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Risk Area 12

 

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface):  Many farmers in Risk Area 12 joined the GRIP program on the condition that a soils review committee would be struck and that retroactive increase in coverage would be available to them for 1991, if the committee decided they were eligible.  The Minister of Agriculture signed his name to that commitment.  The committee met and determined that Area 12 farmers were eligible for a $10 increase in coverage.  Now the Minister of Agriculture has broken his word to the farmers whom he is supposed to represent.

      Can the Minister of Agriculture tell the House why farmers should have any faith in his ability to represent them when he has broken faith with them on the GRIP program?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to remind the member that the GRIP program in the province of Manitoba will probably pay out about $300 million to the farm community of Manitoba.

      The average per acre payment across the entire province is about $43 to $44 an acre.  In Risk Area 12, on the class 12 soils, it is about $51 an acre.  On the class 32 soils, it is an average of about $49 an acre, so that is absolutely significant support to the farm community.

      The direction I gave to the committee I set up to review the inequities that appear to exist in Risk Area 12 was that if the federal minister, if it was appropriate and reasonable that we could make adjustments, we would.

      I had asked the committee to report as of the fall of 1991. They are just finalizing that report at this time, Madam Deputy Speaker.  I have worked hard on their behalf to attempt to get the other partner to agree that there was a problem we should address for 1991.  Unfortunately, I can only report at this time that the answer, to this point, to me has been, no.

Mr. Gaudry:  Can the minister explain why he is asking these very same farmers to enter into negotiations for retroactive coverage for the 1992 crop year when he has just broken the very same promise to the very same farmers?  On what grounds should they trust his word this time?

Mr. Findlay:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to remind the member that the agricultural budget contains $58 million for GRIP support and that member voted against it.  That same member voted against it.

Mr. Gaudry:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a letter from Mr. Richard Vermette, whose letter will be tabled, who withdrew his contract from the GRIP program and then rejoined when the minister promised a retroactive increase.  Now he is locked into a five‑year contract on the basis of the minister's broken promise.

      Can the minister justify his breaking faith with Mr. Vermette and many others like him?

Mr. Findlay:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I set up a process for them to analyze it.  There have been numerous meetings and scientific information analyzed by the committee with farmer representation on it.  They have yet to come to a final conclusion.  I understand that they have their documents written, but the committee has to see it one more time before it is going to get to me.

      But, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said earlier, that report was to have been in by the fall of 1991.  I have attempted on two occasions, in June of last year and up to April of this year, to get the federal minister's concurrence that he would abide by the information that is in the document that is to come forward.  So far, unfortunately, he has said no.

 

Licensed Practical Nurses

Government Support

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns):  Today we have all received copies of the Final Task Force on Practical Nursing Education. In that report, the conclusion, the same conclusion that we heard in 1977 with the report on LPNs and the same conclusion that we heard in 1985 with the Judge O'Sullivan report, is made with respect to licensed practical nurses.

      We know that this profession, this group of individuals, has been on pins and needles for the last number of months about their future, about their jobs, about their livelihood.  I would like to ask the minister in light of this report:  Is he prepared today to end the uncertainty for this valuable nursing profession, state unequivocally that this government supports this profession and give us a timetable for the recommendations of this report?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Despite my honourable friend's question, this government has never said anything or offered anything but support to LPNs in our health care system.

      We have offered the same support to diploma‑trained registered nurses in the system of health care delivery in Manitoba, four‑year baccalaureate‑prepared bachelor of nurses in the health care system of Manitoba, registered psychiatric nurses in the health care system of Manitoba.  Madam Deputy Speaker, we do that because the system enjoys and needs the services of a mix of professional disciplines in nursing, all of them valuable to the delivery of health care services in Manitoba.

      So my honourable friend's inflection that we do not support one trained discipline in nursing is wrong, Madam Deputy Speaker.

* (1355)

 

Red River Community College Program

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Madam Deputy Speaker, considering that it was his decision and his government's decision around education opportunities for licensed practical nurses which caused this task force report in the first place and caused the concern in the community, will the minister and his colleagues lift the moratorium at the Red River Community College for practical nurses, something that is recommended in this report and something which caused this problem to begin with?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Madam Deputy Speaker, that is exactly why we have initiated studies, and when they are available to government we make decisions flowing from them.

      My honourable friend participated at a press conference in December with great concerns about licensed practical nursing training in St. Boniface Hospital, that it was going to close and not be available.  Licensed practical nursing training is ongoing as we speak at the St. Boniface General Hospital.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, this government intends to work diligently and carefully in assuring that training programs are available for the nurses that we need of varying professional disciplines and competence in training programs for the delivery of health care in the province of Manitoba.

 

St. Boniface Hospital

School of Licensed Practical Nursing

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns):  Madam Deputy Speaker, will the minister take this report then and indicate to St. Boniface Hospital that it will not be acceptable to cut back the St. Boniface College for licensed practical nurses?  Will he make some commitment to those in this profession that they will have jobs and educational opportunities to look forward to?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I will even go one step further and I will indicate to my honourable friend that we have a process in place involving a province‑wide review of the employers of the varying nursing professionals which will indicate to us the current employment mix within all of our facilities and give us the best projection they can as to what they anticipate their nursing staff mix to be five years down the road.

      On the basis of that report, not only will we be able to guide the educational programs that are available in the province of Manitoba, but we may be able to provide better information than has existed in the past as to what future and anticipated needs for those respective professional disciplines will be in the health care system of Manitoba.

 

Decentralization

Selkirk, Manitoba

 

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development):  Madam Deputy Speaker, on April 23, I took a question as notice from the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) regarding decentralization numbers in Selkirk as compared to those that were promised initially.

      I can indicate that when we initiated the decentralization move we indicated that we would decentralize some 34 positions to the community of Selkirk.  Since that time, a great deal of work and consideration has been given to civil servants, and also a great deal of work has been done with the community.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to report today that indeed we have decentralized more than the 34 positions we promised.  We have decentralized 41 positions to the community of Selkirk.

 

Glass Recycling

Contract Consultations

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Madam Deputy Speaker, this government recently had a choice in practising sustainable development.  It could have prevented a million and a half pounds of plate glass from entering the landfill as has occurred for the last 10 years, or it could continue to use small, short‑term monetary savings as the sole concern or consideration for decision making.  Once again, the government turns its back on sustainable development and opts to give business to Oklahoma.

      My question is for the Minister of Environment.

      Was the Minister of Environment consulted on this tendered contract for recycled plate glass before it was issued, and what was his position on this issue?

* (1400)

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  First of all, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it should be made very clear that there was a significant variance in the tenders.  The Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) took into consideration the taxpayers of this province and made a decision.

      There are a number of factors that are not being brought to the fore in relationship to this glass market, however.  It would appear that by various manipulations, the province of Saskatchewan is trying to keep the glass market that is available in that plant for themselves, and they are trying to blame Alberta and Manitoba for the closure of their own plant.

 

Impact on Manitoba Businesses

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  For the same minister:  Why was the fact that this is the only plate glass recycling operation in Canada not considered in the process?  Why is the Minister of Environment allowing these kinds of recycling operations to be eliminated from the economy in Manitoba?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Madam Deputy Speaker, obviously, I think the member is suggesting that we would come forward with a subsidy in order to allow this person to continue with his process.

      As the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) said yesterday, we are actively involved today in regulations that will be dealing with beverage containers in this province, a large portion of which is going to be glass.  So we recognize that we are virtually going to be dealing with mountains of glass in the not‑too‑distant future.

      The Minister of Highways and the Department of Environment will be seeking solutions.  Some of those solutions will be in conjunction with the Department of Highways, as a matter of fact, Madam Deputy Speaker.

 

Tender Process Review

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Will the minister have all contracts tendered by this government reviewed from an environmental benefit and sustainability point of view so that they learn from this mistake and it does not happen in the future?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I would have to check the veracity of this information, but it is my understanding that there has been an increasing desire on the part of the plant to refuse Manitoba glass starting long before this contract started.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not need to confirm with the member opposite.  I know that Alberta did not tender with this plant either.  I know that this plant is getting its glass within Saskatchewan.  I know that they quit taking crushed glass from Virden long before this contract even came up for tender.  So we know they are restricting their markets continually and forcing other provinces out of the market.

      What we need is some western Canadian acceptance of responsibility in this area.

 

Economic Growth

Housing Starts

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Madam Deputy Speaker, as I continue to ask the Minister of Finance why his economic development policies for this province have failed so miserably over the last four years, he responds by blaming it on the former government or more recently blaming it on the recession.  I would like to ask him one very specific question.

      Over the last four years housing starts in this country, in Canada, as a result of the recession, have fallen some 31.6 percent.  Housing starts in this province, under this minister's economic policy, have fallen some 75 percent.  How does he account for the difference?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I am happy that the member has seen fit to ask the question.

      He must be aware, I am sure, that Manitoba's growth in the first quarter‑‑I am talking about housing starts now‑‑was concentrated in the urban areas, as members would know.  This was a 67.7 percent increase from the same period last year.  As far as all the provinces, Madam Deputy Speaker, we rank fourth, and I would have to say that the member opposite should stand and applaud that type of statistic.

Mr. Alcock:  Madam Deputy Speaker, when I find something about the minister's policy to applaud, I shall.

      My question for the minister is very clear.  Four years, five budgets, his policies, why are we falling at a rate twice that of Canada?

Mr. Manness:  The member is going to have to be a little clearer.  He says we are falling.  I do not know what he is talking about.  I know, with respect to‑‑and I will give him the number.

      I will talk about manufacturing shipments.  I will talk about employment.  I will talk about capital investment.  I will talk about bankruptcies in this province vis‑a‑vis other provinces. If he wants me to go into detail‑‑if you will give me the time, I will be able to present the case statistically, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we are amongst the highest, in the top two or three in Canada vis‑a‑vis other provinces with respect to all these statistics.

      The course that we are following is the correct one.  It is based on sound management.  It is based on not allowing the deficit to run wild like the Liberals would have us do.  It is based on trying to hold taxes in control like the Liberals would not want us to do, and I am saying to you the course is the correct one.

Mr. Alcock:  Five questions, five indicators, he has yet to refute one of them.  I will indeed ask the minister the questions about bankruptcies and about capital investment and about building permits.  By every criteria, this province is worse off today than it was in 1988 under this Finance minister.

      I want to ask him a simple question.  Explain to this House why we fell at a rate twice that of the national average under this minister.  Why did we fall‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Manness:  I have never ever believed that I, as one individual, indeed as this government, had that much power with respect to economic matters, with respect to housing starts, that we could control ultimately statistics. [interjection]

      Madam Deputy Speaker, I have the Leader of the NDP chirping across the floor about deficits.  He would know about deficits. He sat in a cabinet that recorded the highest deficits of all time, so he would know fully well the issue of deficits.

      The member talks about housing starts.  He selectively wants to move into one very important area of economic activity.  As I have said, this is a stable province with respect to economic activity.  This government has tried to do everything it can to provide an opportunity for businesses and employment growth based on competitive factors.  We have done everything we can to try and hold the tax line.  We have done everything we can to try and help reduce cost of production so that indeed the province and the entrepreneurs in the province will come forward and prosper.

      The member obviously likes to believe, believes that all wealth starts with the creation of house building.  He is wrong. He does not understand where the wealth chain begins.

 

Dutch Elm Disease Program

Provincial Funding

 

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley):  Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources has finally responded to the hundreds of letters and petitions that he has received on the Dutch elm disease issue.  He has chosen to do this by reannouncing a grant of $147,000 from the Department of Urban Affairs to the city for its integrated management program of surveillance and pruning and replacement.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, when you add this to the $350,000 already announced, we still have a 29 percent decrease from the former funding level of $700,000.  Will the minister explain to the House how a 29 percent decrease in funding for the integrated management program will help us maintain the goal of a managed loss rate of less than 2 percent?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Madam Deputy Speaker, I appreciate that the honourable member reminded us all that it is that managed loss rate of 2 percent that is at issue here.  On my review with my forestry officials, I am assured that this rate of loss can be maintained, but I appreciate that my socialist friends have trouble with the concepts of growth and renewal.

      What my review did discover was that we were not replacing the trees, and we were losing in numbers.  At a 2 percent loss, in 36 years, half of our elm trees are lost.  Where is the greening that we are concerned about in our city?  I was pleased to announce‑‑and I am thankful for the amount of support that I received from my government‑‑an additional $200,000 to ensure that new trees, young trees will replace that 2 percent that we are losing admittedly in this city.

      Together with the $147,000, that makes up the $700,000 that we talked about.  Surely, the issue was‑‑if you want to be fair, then you should never be talking about a reduction to $350,000. It was $450,000.

Ms. Friesen:  Madam Deputy Speaker, will the minister confirm that the $200,000 for the new program of replacement of private elms represents 28 percent of the total amount from the province, and that this 28 percent will not be available for the attack on the major problem for both the city and in fact the entire province of the prevention and removal of dead and diseased trees‑‑[interjection]

      The issue is the management of public lands and wildlife.  I cannot understand why the member for Portage cannot simply understand that.  This $200,000‑‑

* (1410)

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Enns:  Madam Deputy Speaker, I really want to respond to this in as rational and reasonable a manner as I can.  It is an important issue to all of us.  We have been fighting Dutch elm disease for several decades.

      Throughout the Schreyer years of the '70s, it was deemed that $180,000 was a reasonable level from the provincial government. That was changed by myself during the Lyon years to $350,000. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, throughout the six years of the NDP government of Howard Pawley, $350,000 was deemed to be an acceptable level to keep it at.  It never changed.  My government felt, as a result of the drought years in those same years, that we should accelerate that to $700,000.  So, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is where it is at.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, I know that the dean of the Legislature would not want to put incorrect information on this on the record.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Does the honourable member have a point of order?

Mr. Plohman:  Clearly, there was 350,000‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member for Dauphin does not have a point of order.  It is a dispute over facts.

* * *

Ms. Friesen:  Madam Deputy Speaker, the point is that the past funding levels, in fact, maintained the loss rate at less than 2 percent.  Now, he has reduced it.  How does he expect it to be maintained at that?  Will the minister acknowledge that the issue we now face‑‑

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.  The member is entitled to one question.  The question has been put.

Mr. Enns:  Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been suggested to me‑‑and I read the papers, too‑‑that politics may have something to say in this affair.  I want to assure you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to assure honourable members opposite, that I pay foresters, professional foresters, good money to give me advice on these matters, and the advice they give me is that the optimum management level is 2 percent removal.

      My critic agrees with me, on the opposite side of the House. I am telling her that is the level we are going to maintain it at.  Now, if she does not want to believe me, let her speak to me next year about it.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  The time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

 

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  I wonder if I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. [Agreed]

      Madam Deputy Speaker, tomorrow, Thursday, April 30, corresponding to the 26th day of Nissan of the Hebrew calendar year 5752, marks the beginning of Holocaust Awareness Week.  The Holocaust is recognized as a monstrous outrage against humanity involving a deliberate and senseless attempt at the systematic extermination of an entire people.

      In common with Jews around the world, our Jewish community will be mourning and honouring the memory of the more than six million Jewish men, women and children who perished in the ghettoes, concentration camps and gas chambers in those days of the Nazi nightmare.

      It should be noted that the Nazi death camps were not only a Jewish problem.  A total of 11 million innocent, noncombatant civilians were killed by the Nazis, but the largest single group by far comprised of six million Jewish victims, representing fully one‑third of the Jewish population of the world.

      As the renowned author and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel points out, not all the victims of the Holocaust were Jews, but all Jews were victims.

      Holocaust Awareness Week pays solemn tribute to the victims of this unparalleled attempt to destroy a people, as well as to the indomitable will of a people to overcome tragedy and survive.

      Regardless of religion or background, it is our responsibility, as people who believe in the concepts of freedom, equality and the worth of the individual, to remember the tragedy and lessons of the Holocaust by keeping the memory of the six million alive.  It is also our responsibility to do all in our power to see that it never happens again.

      Manitoba has already made a serious commitment to preserving the memory of the victims on our Legislative Building grounds.  I was proud to participate with the Jewish community in planning and implementing the Holocaust memorial which stands on the southwest corner of the grounds, the first such monument in Canada erected on public ground.

      I know the members of the House will want to join with our Jewish citizens and with people of good will everywhere in keeping alive and honouring the memory of the six million martyred victims during Holocaust Awareness Week.

Madam Deputy Speaker:  Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition have leave? [Agreed]

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  I would like to join with the Premier and all members of this Legislature in speaking on behalf of the Holocaust Awareness Week, as outlined by the Premier today.

      The tragedies of that incident in our history, that huge issue in our history, the absolute inhumanity that went on in our world in the last hundred years, I believe, binds us all together in this very, very important week outlined by the Premier, indeed, not only this important week, but in our whole lives on the issue of racism, hatred and genocide that took place in this century.

      Madam Deputy Speaker, as a young child and as a person studying history, one could not believe that these events took place with human beings on the face of this Earth.  One cannot understand what conditions led to this genocide that took place. One could not even understand the role of Canada.

      When I read back in history and hear about the plea of many people in eastern Europe and in central Europe to immigrate to countries like Canada and the United States and our collective neglect in opening up our arms to those people who were in obvious human danger, their families, et cetera, we should not lose sight of the fact that all of us in this world have something to be aware of and learn from, the genocide that took place, and have responsibility for this act that took place in our century in our world.

      I want to join with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today on his comments on the Holocaust Awareness Week and the millions of families that did not survive it and the millions of others that did survive it with the emotional scars that will last, not just their lifetime, but must last on to the next century and on to the next century after that.

      We must all learn in this awareness week of our collective responsibility for how that happened in our world.  I think we have to, in this Holocaust Awareness Week, rededicate ourselves against genocide, hatred, racism, i