LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, April 30, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bruce Campbell, Jeff Hamm, Marilyn Catellier and others urging the government to consider the establishment of an Office of the Children's Advocate independent of cabinet and reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of George Law, Heather MacKay, Evelyn Atkinson and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider a one‑year moratorium on the closure of the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Valerie J. Black, Patricia Wilson, Catherine Westwood and others requesting the government consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mrs. Carstairs).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Province of Manitoba announced that it would establish an Office of the Children's Advocate in its most recent throne speech and allocated funds for this Office in its March '92 budget; and

      WHEREAS the Kimelman Report (1983), the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry (1991) and the Suche Report (1992) recommended that the province establish such an office reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in a manner similar to that of the Office of the Ombudsman; and

      WHEREAS pursuant to the Child and Family Services Act Standards, the agency worker is to be the advocate for a child in care; and

      WHEREAS there is a major concern that child welfare workers, due to their vested interest as employees within the service system, cannot perform an independent advocacy role; and

      WHEREAS pure advocacy will only be obtained through an independent and external agency; and

      WHEREAS the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has unsatisfactorily dealt with complaints lodged against child welfare agencies; and now

      THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba strongly urge the provincial government to consider establishing an Office of the Children's Advocate which will be independent of cabinet and report directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

 

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES

 

Mr. Jack Reimer (Member of the Standing Committee on Economic Development):  I beg to present the Fourth Report of the Committee on Economic Development.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant):  Your Standing Committee on Economic Development presents the following as their Fourth Report.

      Your committee met on Tuesday, April 28, 1992, at 8 p.m, in Room 254 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1991.

      Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1991, and has adopted the same as presented.

      All of which is respectfully submitted.

Mr. Reimer:  I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

* (1335)

Mr. Jack Penner (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources):  I beg to present the First Report on the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources.

Mr. Clerk:  Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its First Report.

      Your committee met on Tuesday, April 28, 1992, at 8 p.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the year ended October 31, 1991.

      Mr. Walter Bardua, president and general manager, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

      Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the year ended October 31, 1991, and has adopted the same as presented.

      All of which is respectfully submitted.

Mr. Penner:  I move, seconded by the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  I would like to table the 1990‑91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation and the 1991 Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System.

 

Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Peter Muir, Tibor Bodi and Peter Aitchison.  They are members of the climbing team who will be attempting the first ascent of Mount Manitoba in the Kluane National Park in the Yukon.

      On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

      Also with us this afternoon, from the Margaret Park School, we have twenty‑seven Grades 4 and 5 students, and they are under the direction of Paula Calado.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

      Cet apres‑midi, aussi, nous tenons a vous signaler la presence dans la galerie publique de dix‑sept etudiants de la neuvieme annee de l'Ecole Provencher, sous la direction d'Ed McCarthy.  Cette institution est situee dans la circonscription du depute de Saint‑Boniface (Mr. Gaudry).

[Translation]

       Also this afternoon, we would like to indicate the presence in the public gallery of seventeen pupils in Grade 9, from Provencher School, under the direction of Ed McCarthy.  This school is located in the constituency of the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry).

[English]

      On behalf of all members, I welcome you all here this afternoon.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

North American Free Trade Agreement

Public Hearings

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  In the Speech from the Throne in 1990, the government said, Canadians said no to the old style of elite accommodation and closed‑door politics.  Mr. Speaker, since that time, the government has participated in a number, almost on a weekly basis, of trade meetings between provincial trade ministers and the federal minister, one of which is going on again today in a downtown Winnipeg hotel dealing with trade.  The items the ministers have been dealing with on a weekly basis have included interprovincial trade and have also included the proposed trade agreement with Mexico.

      We have been concerned about the secret negotiations on trade.  We are concerned about the secret drafts.  We are concerned about the secret responses from the provincial government.  We are concerned about the secret analysis that has not been provided to the people of this province about the positive and negative impact of North American free trade with Mexico, which is going on right now in Mexico in terms of negotiations between Canada, the United States and Mexico.

      I would, therefore, ask the Acting Premier whether the government will amend its terms of reference on proposed free trade with Mexico to change their six conditions‑‑which of course is a flip‑flop from their opposition to free trade with Mexico from the election‑‑to include mandatory public input for the Canadian people and the people of Manitoba on this vital trade agreement affecting their livelihood and their children's future.

* (1340)

Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member has been told many times that the six principles that Manitoba put forward are the framework within which we intend to stand strong.  They will not be violated, and they are hardly hidden from view.

      The fact is that our Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) is involved on an ongoing basis with the federal authorities to put forward Manitoba's position strongly, to advocate on behalf of the industries that could be affected in this province, to make sure that our place is put forward strongly at the table.  We will stick to those six principles.  I think he should stop talking about hidden agenda.  That, in fact, is a very public agenda.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has not told us what industries are impacted, what areas of the province are impacted, who the winners and losers are, according to their analysis. They have an $800,000 secretariat, and we do not know what they are producing out of the bowels of the Legislature in terms of what is positive and negative.

      The terms of reference that the minister refers to do not include any public input from the people of Manitoba and the people of Canada.

      I would ask the government why the public of Manitoba will not have any say in this matter and why this government did not include it in their terms of reference for the free trade agreement with Mexico.

Mr. Cummings:  Mr. Speaker, to begin with, Ottawa has made it very clear that this was their responsibility in international trade.  Manitoba has made it very clear that we intend to be at the table to make sure that the conditions that we put forward are heard, that they are attended to and they are answered in any agreement that is ultimately struck.  The research that we are doing and the work that we are doing is being done to support those principles, and we will stand by that basis.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I am not talking about Ottawa's conditions.  I am talking about Manitoba's conditions, the ones that explain the flip‑flop from no to the free trade agreement with Mexico to the maybe position to free trade with Mexico. Even the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) has advised the government that they are absolutely crazy to proceed with free trade negotiations with Mexico when we still do not know the impact of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States.

      Judging from the bankruptcy numbers today, Mr. Speaker, which are the highest in March since the history of keeping bankruptcy numbers, which are on top of the bankruptcy numbers in February 1992, which are also the highest in the history of this province, one would think the government would start to pay attention to the public concerns on the economy.

      So I would ask the Acting Premier, will they amend their terms of reference to include public input from this province on what our position is, what our response is, what the drafts say and what they mean for Manitoba and public input to their trade agreement, not the provincial government's trade agreement with North American free trade?

Mr. Cummings:  First of all, the Leader of the Opposition chooses to misrepresent what is occurring in the trend of bankruptcies in this province.  We are, in fact, improving.  Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition seems like he is not willing to listen to some principles that this province laid down as the condition upon which we would hold any potential agreement that the federal government may choose to enter into.

      The six principles were enunciated.  They are very public. They are being put forward very strongly at any meetings that our representatives are at, and if he wishes to throw out all possibility of trade, he should think about the fact that Manitoba had an opportunity, and I personally not very long ago had an opportunity, to question directly the minister responsible for administration of environmental matters, for example, at the minister's meeting in Vancouver.

      Those are the kinds of opportunities that we have to seize on to make sure that our principles are being dealt with.

 

Education System

Dropout Rate

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Education and Training.

      Mr. Speaker, the Economic Council of Canada has outlined a number of deficiencies in our education system and many which amount to four lost years under this Tory government.  If literacy is a problem with graduates, then can you imagine what the problem must be with those that drop out?

      What specific programs and measures are being undertaken by this government to deal with dropouts, specifically women who constitute the second worst dropout rate of any province in Canada?

* (1345)

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  We do take the results of this study very seriously.  We took it seriously enough to make sure that we had a representative in Ottawa yesterday when the study was released.

      I would like to correct the honourable member in terms of this being an indication of four years of our government because, if he in fact reads the report, he will see the statistics are based on the years from the early '80s, through 1987, as well, the years of the NDP government.  Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would ask him to look again.

      Let me also say that this government did recognize the issues that were raised in this particular report, issues such as high costs, skills of students, quality of teaching and a linkage to work and employment.  We do at this point have a number of initiatives that in fact exceed the recommendations of the report which came out yesterday.

      Let me mention one which I have mentioned in this House previously, and that is the creation by this government of the Student Support branch.  We are the only government in Canada to have dedicated a whole branch to the issue of dropouts.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, will the minister outline what programs are in place, since she refused to answer the question, for women who last year constituted the second worst dropout rate in the country, to deal with the serious dropout rate in this province?

      Because the minister for the whole last week has refused to answer the question in Estimates, will she tell us today what programs are in place to deal with the situation of women dropouts in this province?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Let me answer again.  In the first place, we have created a very specific branch.  This government has recognized the concerns of at‑risk students, people who are at risk of leaving school before their education is completed, and we have created the Student Support branch.

      Through that branch, schools, local communities will be able to identify programs which they believe will be specific for their area, most helpful to their communities, and apply for grant funding.  In addition, the department is there also to offer other kinds of supports which divisions might see as important.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the same minister.

      If administrative costs to the province of Manitoba are disproportionately higher than in the rest of Canada, why is this government and this minister insisting on putting in place more bureaucracy but, more importantly, another level of school board to deal with private schools to increase the costs to the public of Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey:  Mr. Speaker, the issue of accountability has certainly been one of the priorities of this government, and the issue of accountability we are attempting to address through a number of areas:  one, the institution of provincial testing which the other side of the House has so firmly objected to, and the most recent study has said it is very important to ensure our standards.

      In the area of the Student Support branch, there is over $10 million of grant money available.

* (1350)

 

Education System

Curriculum Revisions

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that there is death on both their houses because neither party, whether it be the Tories or be it the NDP, has given education the priority it deserves in the province of Manitoba.

      I think it is important, however, to look at how this government has prioritized its expenditures on education, and I will use just one example.  Last year they cut five curriculum consultants.  This year they are cutting an additional curriculum consultant.  In their own supplementary Estimates, they list as one of the tasks of that particular branch the systematic updating of programs to ensure relevant standards.

      Can the minister explain why this government is spending 17 percent less money on updating its curriculum so that it is relevant?  What effect is that going to have on the quality of education for our young people?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  Mr. Speaker, first of all, I think it is very important that we also maintain a sense of vision in terms of education in this province and that we do not fall into a sense of complete panic that things are all going wrong.

      Let me inform the member of some of the initiatives currently underway.  Curriculum revisions are underway in the K‑8 mathematics area, with emphasis on skill development in that area.  We also have plans underway to produce a province‑wide distance education calculus course.  We are making major improvements in the science curriculum.  We are assessing the English curriculum this May.

      So we are in fact doing a great number of initiatives currently underway.

 

Administrative Costs

 

'Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I was delighted at the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who yelled across the House, more money, more money.  Well, let me tell you what the Minister of Education has done.

      The Minister of Education, while cutting curriculum consultants, has added 5.52 staff persons to Management Information Services.  We are going to know how many kids fail, but we are not going to put any money into preventing them from failing.

      Will the Minister of Education explain that?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  First of all, let me remind the honourable member that this government has in fact put more money into Education this year so that we can look at the issues relating to education.

      In addition to that, we have several projects currently underway, legislative reform being one, and also our own government's strategic plan, which points to the very issue that I think the member is raising, issues of accountability and making sure that our students come to a successful completion. So I do not accept the information in her question.

 

Core Curriculum

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Economic Council of Canada indicated that what we were doing was trying to teach the middle, that we had ignored the upper‑end students and we had ignored the lower‑end students.

      Well, this government has taken a very critical decision. They have decided that in Grade 10 they will eliminate specific curriculums for bright children and middle children and those who have difficulties in learning.  They have merged them all together in a core curriculum in the fields of language arts, social studies, history, geography.

      Can the minister explain why they have gone to a core curriculum when it is very clear that a core curriculum is not meeting the interests of the vast majority of students?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training):  There is a core curriculum in Senior 1.  We move then to areas of specialization in Senior 2 or Grade 10, and in that, we look specifically at specialization in the area of math and science. When we get to Senior 3 and Senior 4, there is a differentiation of curriculum.  This is intended to give students‑‑and we followed pedagogical advice to make sure that students in Senior 1 had a broad enough basis from which to continue their education and make important decisions.

      We are supporting students in the Senior 1 and Senior 2 level with the Student Support branch because we understand that it is not the rigor of the curriculum that causes young people to disengage but other reasons supported by the Student Support branch.

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Lentils

 

* (1355)

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, more and more farmers are painfully aware that GRIP in its present form is unfair and inequitable.  We saw it yesterday when the farmers from Area 12 showed this government for its true colours, for its mismanagement and hypocrisy with regard to GRIP.

      Now we have the lentil fiasco, with the minister's blatant 12th‑hour interference in the marketplace, something he says his government does not believe in.  Yesterday a full month and a half after the contract called for making these announcements, Mr. Speaker, the minister continued in his contemptible ways by showing complete disdain for this Legislature‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Mr. Plohman:  I ask this minister responsible for lentils why he did not at least have the courtesy to make the announcement with regard to the change in the coverage levels, the support levels for lentils in this House to the representatives.  He should have made it months ago, but he at least‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  There is great difficulty associated with doing what we had to do yesterday. The lentil acres in 1990 were 55,000 acres, last year 135,000 acres.  This year it looked like it would be 400,000 to 500,000 acres.

      Mr. Speaker, we have informed our signatories that the price set for lentils has been too high.  We have been saying that for 14 months.  We have received in the last three weeks a number of letters and phone calls from producers and producer organizations saying that we must do something.

      The Manitoba agriculture societies said reduce it.  The Manitoba Pulse Growers wrote and gave a number of conditions that were being basically violated in the marketplace by the program, and they said the current situation is brought about by an unrealistic target price in lentils.  The president of the Keystone Agricultural Producers phoned me on Monday and said: For the integrity of the program, the integrity of the industry and the integrity of using taxpayers' dollars, you have to do something.

      We went to the signatories committee this week‑‑they met on Tuesday‑‑and said:  Would you look at the issue?  They gave us a recommendation that we should do something in Manitoba, and that is what we had to do yesterday.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this minister should have known this a year ago.  He knew there was an increase in lentils.

      Why did this minister not make this announcement a month and a half ago?  How can he justify the interference in the marketplace that he did yesterday after farmers have spent thousands of dollars on seed, and seed companies have purchased seed and inoculate for that seed?  Where has this minister been for the last month and a half?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the member of my answer to the first question that, for 14 months we have been talking about this, trying to get the National Grains Bureau and Agriculture Canada, who set those prices, to understand that the prices were unrealistically set.  We have had a number of people in the industry, a number of people who are producers and farm organizations saying the same thing.

      We sought legal opinion to determine if the contract was violated.  We did what we did, and the legal opinion said that as long as changes were made before April 30, it was legally correct to do so.  We did it in response to numerous inquiries from the industry and from producers.

Mr. Plohman:  Mr. Speaker, this program is more of a mess under the management of this minister every day.

      I want to ask this minister how he intends to compensate those farmers and those seed companies, such as the Farmers Co‑op Seed Plant at Rivers, who have had 10 percent of their contracts, of their orders cancelled this morning, only this morning, since this minister's announcement at the last minute.  How is he going to compensate them?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, nothing in our announcement prevented anybody from growing any number of acres they wanted to grow or any contracts they have signed.  Nothing in our announcement violated that.

      I would like to read what the executive director of the Manitoba Pulse Growers said yesterday.  He said:  Even after higher production costs are factored in, the support price for lentils guarantees farmers a significantly higher return than for other GRIP‑insured crops, even after the reduction.

      They recognized that the support was far too high, relative to other crops, and structurally, it was the right decision to take.  We were promoted to do it by many people in the industry.

 

GRIP Program

Coverage Levels ‑ Risk Area 12

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister who is one of the most popular people in rural Manitoba because of what he has done to the farming community. First he broke his promise, and then he made a delayed announcement on lentils.

      I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he is going to honour his commitment which he made in writing to the representatives of Risk Area 12, making a commitment to make an adjustment in their coverage if there were changes.  Will he honour that commitment so they can go ahead and lobby the federal government to work on that for them as well?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, a year ago, I set up a process involving farmers to come up with some legitimate numbers that we could advance to the federal government.  As I said yesterday, I have written the federal government twice asking them to understand that this was necessary to be done.

      The committee has gone through its final report.  I imagine the final report that all committee members approve will arrive on my desk shortly.  We continue to ask the federal government to look at those numbers and see if there is some way they can address the problem that has been in place, the inequity that has really been in place, in that area for some 20 years.

* (1400)

Ms. Wowchuk:  My question to the same minister is:  Will this government live up to the word of their minister?  Will they put the money in place and put the federal government on the line to see whether the federal government will stand up to his word?

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, we have been talking to those growers for a long period of time, trying to find some mechanism that we could legitimately take some information to the federal government.  I say, when that report comes in, we will continue to work with the federal government to see that the information in the report will be accepted for them for '91 or '92 or forever.

Ms. Wowchuk:  My question is still to the same minister.

      Will this government put the money on the line so that the federal government will then be obliged to make a decision?  They have a letter saying they will do this.  They need somebody to stand behind this.  I am sure many of his backbenchers would be happy to do it.

Mr. Findlay:  Mr. Speaker, in terms of putting money on the line, we put $50 million on the line for GRIP premiums for Manitoba farmers last year.  It has generated a payout of some $300 million; $240 million has already gone out.  The average per‑acre payment to all farmers in Manitoba under revenue insurance is $44 an acre; Risk Area 12, $51 an acre; and Risk Area 32, $49 an acre.  So substantive monies have been budgeted and already paid out to farmers to help them fight the incredible grain trade war that we are still in.

 

Economic Growth

Building Permits

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, in each one of the five budgets that this Finance minister has tabled in the House and again yesterday, he continues to promise us that somehow prosperity is just around the corner, but his predictions to date have been rather faulty, to say the least.

      Now when you look back over the last four years, when you look back at the statistics that are contained within Statistics Canada reports‑‑population, share of national wealth, share of retail trade, total jobs, full‑time jobs, housing starts, wages and salaries‑‑you find that Manitoba has done uniformly badly. Yesterday the minister referenced investment.

      I would like to ask the minister this question:  How does he account for the fact that over the past four years, the share of total building permits in this country fell some 18 percent?  In Manitoba they fell 28.9 percent.  How does he account for that difference in the performance in this province versus the national performance?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, the member has taken me a little bit unaware.  I thought he was going to ask questions on bankruptcies today.  Obviously, he could not find a selective area that suited his particular questions.

      As I indicated yesterday, when one looks at all of the statistical areas, one can pick and choose to set their own arguments.  I would like to say to the member opposite that economic growth of our province as compared to the national average for '92‑‑and I think Manitobans today are trying to develop a confidence, indeed, all Canadians are, in their economy.  I think they want to look forward, Mr. Speaker.  I would like to say that I am assured that the American economy is beginning to pull out of its malaise.  I am told by my economic advisers that if that occurs in the United States, then obviously consumer confidence will build here.  Obviously then there will be an increase in housing starts, there will be an increase in permits taken out for construction, and in time, of course, the economy will rebound.

      I say to the member opposite, if he wants to focus on four years of the past, if he feels that he is serving his constituents in the best manner and reflecting on four years of numbers that have occurred over the year, he could probably accomplish an awful lot more if he would attempt to, with the government, try and find the best ways and support the government in trying to make Manitoba businesses competitive so that there will be employment.  Spending money in every other field of government is not the way to do it.

Mr. Alcock:  Now, if I understand the minister's comment, Mr. Speaker, he is asking me to support his four years of failure, and I am afraid I am unable to do that right now.

      I want to ask him a very simple question, Mr. Speaker.  Will the minister explain to me why, after four years of his policy, we are doing worse on building permits in this province?  A very simple question:  Why have we done so much worse than the national average‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, again the member wants to select into an area.  Why does he not ask the question about the capital investment intentions well above those in Canada?  Why does he not talk about retail sales up 7.4 percent in February compared with the year previous, third best amongst the provinces?  Why does he not talk about business bankruptcy figures as compared to other jurisdictions in Canada, where we are the third best amongst the provinces and, in the first three months of this year, a 14 percent drop from a year ago?  Why does the member not want to dwell on those numbers and try to give some balance to his question?

      No, all the member is trying to do is once again destroy the confidence of the consumers and the business people in this province for his own political gain, Mr. Speaker, and I say to him, shame.  He has ulterior motives; he is out to destroy the economy in this province.  He is contributing nothing.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, we have five years of intentions, and not one of them has proved out, not one of them.

      I want to ask the minister this very simple question.  He has put in place a plan; he has had that plan working now for four years.  In the area of building permits, our performance is worse than that of the country.  Can the minister please explain to us why that has occurred?

Mr. Manness:  Mr. Speaker, it seems almost identical to the second question, which was identical to the first question.

      I can give again the same response as I did on the second question, but I know, when you are in opposition, you expect there to be instant fixes.  I know, Mr. Speaker, we have had requests from the opposition benches that we should bring forward a stimulation budget.

      Of course, what that was, was asking the government to spend considerably more in almost all areas of government or to increase taxes and/or to do anything to employ people.  I am here to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the approach that we are taking is the correct one as is reflected in the financial markets, in the manner in which our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and indeed our Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Stefanson) can now access corporate boardrooms in the country with respect to the message as to what is occurring in our province to make our regime more competitive.  It is being reflected in the financial market, where today, for the first time in the history of Canada, our bonds are trading at a par and at a better value than Ontario's. Those are the measures of how our process is working.  The course is the right one, and it is the course that we will continue to follow.

 

Sewage Lagoon ‑ Oak Point

Environmental Concerns

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Mr. Speaker, I have photographs with me today that show how a pit extended onto a previous landfill site has been used as a sewage lagoon near Oak Point. This pit has no liner.  It is not complying with the regulations for lagoons, and it has been allowed to spill over onto the adjacent land.

      Residents are concerned that the proposed lagoon to replace this area is not the proper solution.  How will the minister resolve concerns that the lagoon that is supposed to drain into Lake Manitoba from this site will not wipe out the fish breeding area or the recreational beach in the area?

* (1410)

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, the member demonstrates why we need to work with a number of municipalities to make sure that their waste disposal and sewage handling processes are brought up to snuff.  We have had an ongoing process in that municipality to site a new lagoon, to site a new waste disposal ground.  The department has worked closely with them in examining the plans that they have put forward, the studies that they put forward.  The department laid down the conditions of a licence regarding the standard of effluent.  The time of discharge and all of the relevant information that was brought forward was taken into consideration, and a licence was issued.

      It is under the conditions of that licence that we will control and regulate and make sure there is no damage to the surrounding environment.

 

Environmental Impact

Assessment

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  It is the minister's department that authorized this pit to be used in this manner.

      Can the minister then table the environment impact assessment that is going to show that there will not be any effect on fish stock and fish breeding ground on the reserve across the lake which draws its water from Lake Manitoba and to show that there has been ground water testing in this area to show that there has not been contamination from this lagoon?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  All of the information that the department took into account in looking at the plans is public information.  It was filed, and I am sure that the member can have access to that.

 

Public Hearings

 

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson):  Since there was no public hearing where the residents could have their concern‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Question, please.

Ms. Cerilli:  Will the minister hold a public hearing on the siting of this new lagoon in the Oak Point area?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, I regret to some extent that the type of disagreements upon which the member is basing her questions end up being brought to the floor of this Chamber, because in many ways this is not an environmental issue.  It is a dispute between two communities about where this site should be located.  It is a planning issue as much as it is an environment issue.  The environmental restrictions that we can impose, the standards that we will require of operation are the responsibility that we will deal with and make sure that there is no damage.

      The appeal that the member is referring to, a number of those issues were raised and were dealt with in the licence.  As so often happens, Mr. Speaker‑‑and I do not for one minute deny it‑‑when municipal service sites such as this are located, there is always some concern raised and some disagreement about the location of it.  There certainly is a good deal of disagreement by a small group, but they were clearly heard.  The environmental issues were raised, and we believe we have dealt with it.

 

Sewage Lagoon ‑ Oak Point

Licensing Process

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, I can hardly believe that the Minister of Environment would say that this lagoon in Oak Point does not raise environmental issues.  The fact is that the proposed lagoon is to be a nonstandard lagoon, with its outlet entering Lake Manitoba at a recreational and a fish‑spawning zone.  Many local residents have been and continue to be extremely concerned about the design and the effects of this lagoon on the local environment.  It certainly is an environmental issue.

      My question for the minister:  Why, given these concerns which have been persistent from the very outset of this proposal from many of the local residents, did the minister not require a proper siting study of the project and did he not require a proper public hearing in front of the CEC to air those concerns and instead was content‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Mr. Speaker, as I said at the outset, this has been a very troublesome process. The environmental matters that are associated with the siting of this lagoon, or any other service facility of this nature, have to be carefully watched.  They have to be carefully designed and operations handled.

      The fact that the original siting was used improperly is now being corrected.  One of the reasons that this was not corrected over a period of time earlier was a disagreement about where a new facility would be most properly located.

      Mr. Speaker, the issues that were brought forward were, there is a judgment call as to whether they are dealt with directly by the licensing process or whether they go to a Clean Environment Commission hearing, and this one was deemed to have been capable of being dealt with within the licensing process, and that was what was done.

 

Public Hearings

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Again, for the same minister, Mr. Speaker, the minister recommended to local residents when they met with him that they go to mediation with the R.M.  The R.M. declined to participate.

      My question for the minister is:  Why, after recognizing that the concerns of the residents were worthy of a mediation proposal when it did not go ahead, did he not go the second step and in fact give a full public hearing process the opportunity for the residents to put forward their concerns to a board like the Clean Environment Commission to be heard and adjudicated upon?  Why, after recognizing their concerns were valid, did he not do a full job?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Again, Mr. Speaker, while I do not think the member should characterize anything I said earlier as not being concerned about the environmental issues, there was also a planning issue that was within the jurisdiction of the municipality to make.

      In the jurisdiction for which I am responsible, the licensing of any design and building and discharge that might occur in relationship to this facility was properly handled and will be properly regulated in the future to make sure, whether it is a city of Winnipeg discharge or whether it is a small community waste sewage collection site.  They both have to be treated with equal care, and this one can be managed so there will be no impact on the surrounding environment, Mr. Speaker.

 

Licensing Process ‑ Appeal

 

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James):  Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same minister.  An appeal of this licence by the residents is currently before the minister.  We are advised that the minister has privately told the R.M. that they can start tendering this without having released publicly the results of the appeal.

      Has the minister in fact made up his mind on this appeal, and if so, why did his department privately inform the R.M. before making the decision public in the normal course?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment):  Again, Mr. Speaker, someone is either misinformed or has chosen to take a different tack on this.

      Environment licence is valid during the time of appeal, and if the municipality chooses to proceed to go to tender or to get bids on construction of a site during that period, they are quite entitled to do so.  The results of the appeal and the reasons behind any decisions that are made around that will be made public in the appropriate time frame, and all people involved will have a copy and full access to that information.

 

Social Assistance

Off-Reserve Status Indians

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Mr. Speaker, the federal government's withdrawal of 100 percent social assistance funding for status Indians living off reserves will cost $8.7 million a year for the City of Winnipeg, in addition to the capping of welfare rates, which will cost them $5 million, for a total of $13.7 million, which will result in a 5 percent increase in civic taxes if the city is forced to pick up all of these costs.

      What is the Minister of Family Services doing to avert a crisis in the City of Winnipeg, which is the result of the Province of Manitoba doing nothing in the face of Ottawa's withdrawal of funding?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  I reject that the province is doing nothing about the withdrawal of federal funding.  We have made a very strong stand on this issue, and we used to have the support of the opposition.  I am disappointed that they have changed their position on that.

      We also have the Manitoba Assembly of Chiefs, the UMM and the MAUM organizations supporting us in our dispute with Ottawa.  We do not accept this change in funding and are continuing to reject it and will continue to make an issue of this until the federal government has agreed to reinstate this funding.

 

Bill 70

Amendments

 

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):  Will the Minister of Family Services amend Bill 70 in order to prevent a massive tax increase for city taxpayers, estimated at 5 percent?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  It is interesting that opposition members have yet to speak on the bill, and the member is asking us for an amendment.  We have brought that legislation before the House and given it second reading and look forward to members' comments on that legislation.

      If the member is here to solve some of the financial problems of a municipal level of government, I encourage him to speak with city councillors and maybe give them some direction on ways in which he would see them changing their budget.

      We are working with the SARC committee, which has a member, a city councillor, on that committee.  They have presented a report to government.  We have basically accepted that report and are bringing in legislation based on that SARC report.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

* (1420)

 

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS

 

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River):  Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?  [Agreed]

      Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great sense of pride to rise today to wish a group of Manitobans the best of luck as they set off to celebrate Canada's 125th Birthday in a very unique manner. During the first three weeks of May, 11 Manitobans will attempt to climb Mount Manitoba in Kluane National Park in the Yukon Territory.

      Mount Manitoba is 11,150 feet high and is part of a range of 14 mountains called the Centennial Range.  In 1967, as a centennial project, the Alpine Club of Canada, which was founded in Winnipeg in 1906, organized a large expedition to first ascend all 14 mountains.  The 1967 expedition, however, was unsuccessful in its attempt on our namesake mountain.

      The present expedition will face many logistical, climatic and physical challenges during their attempt to climb Mount Manitoba.  However, the rewards outweigh the challenges they will face.  First ascents are a rare opportunity and a great honour, and it is only appropriate that the mountain that bears our provincial name be ascended first by Manitobans.  This expedition has been well supported by many local businesses and individuals.  Regardless of the outcome of the climb, we fellow Manitobans revel in the climbers' sense of vision and their resolve to once more bring Manitoba to the forefront of discovery and achievement.

      Some of the members of the climbing team are with us here today.  Tibor Bodi, a constituent of mine, is one of the three climb leaders, and Peter Muir and Dan Dunbar also comprise a part of this team.  The other members of the team, who regrettably were unable to be with us today, are Peter Aitchison, Bob France, also both climb leaders, as well as Richard Ti