LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, May 4, 1992

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Andrhea Lande, Brenda Austin‑Smith, Deborah Carlson and others requesting the government consider restoring the former full funding of $700,000 to fight Dutch elm disease.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I beg to present the petition of Katrina Boyd, Jean Davidson, Marise Leblanc and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I beg to present the petition of Sandra McLaughlin, Joyce Jones, Natalie Strohman and others requesting the government consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Province of Manitoba announced that it would establish an Office of the Children's Advocate in its most recent throne speech and allocated funds for this Office in its March '92 budget; and

WHEREAS the Kimelman Report (1983), the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry (1991) and the Suche Report (1992) recommended that the province establish such an office reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in a manner similar to that of the Office of the Ombudsman; and

WHEREAS pursuant to the Child and Family Services Act Standards, the agency worker is to be the advocate for a child in care; and

WHEREAS there is a major concern that child welfare workers, due to their vested interest as employees within the service system, cannot perform an independent advocacy role; and

WHEREAS pure advocacy will only be obtained through an independent and external agency; and

WHEREAS the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has unsatisfactorily dealt with complaints lodged against child welfare agencies; and now

THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba strongly urge the provincial government to consider establishing an Office of the Children's Advocate which will be independent of cabinet and report directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

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I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and

WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the program.

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I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba; and

The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital and view it as a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and

The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occur; and

The administration of the hospital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1.3 million; and

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I would like to table, Mr. Speaker, the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Urban Affairs and the Department of Housing.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement to make to the House.

It was my privilege to have recently signed a proclamation designating the week May 3 to May 9, 1992, as National Forest Week in Manitoba. I would like to take this opportunity to read into the record the proclamation that I signed.

WHEREAS Canada's forests are one of the major aspects of our national heritage; and

WHEREAS our forests provide millions of Canadians and visitors with opportunities for healthful recreation and sport each year; and

WHEREAS these same forests provide protection in our watersheds for soils and crops and form a home for wildlife and also provide thousands of Canadians with jobs in the forest products industries; and

WHEREAS the losses suffered each year through man‑made forest fires are detrimental to the interest of all Canadians; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba Forestry Association is well known for its efforts in reminding us of our ever‑present responsibility for the conservation of our forest wealth and is co‑operating in the promotion of a national week focusing attention on our forest resources;

NOW THEREFORE BE IT KNOWN THAT I, Harry J. Enns, Minister of Natural Resources, do hereby recognize the days from May 3 to May 9, 1992, as National Forest Week in Manitoba and do commend their observation to all citizens of the province.

Mr. Speaker, honourable members will be pleased to note that the tradition of the House continues with a presentation of a white spruce tree. These were supplied by the Manitoba Forestry Association in conjunction with the Department of Natural Resources.

Today is recognized as Arbour Day. It is an occasion to plant trees and to reflect upon the future of our forests and forest industries. It was my pleasure this morning, in Brandon, to be able to join with my federal colleague, the honourable Frank Oberle, in announcing a farm forestry program to encourage the private wood lot industry.

This $1‑million, three‑year program will help to ensure that owners of treed lands have alternatives to clearing their land. As well, it will encourage owners of marginal land to replant their land in trees, which in years to come will benefit both our environment and economy; in other words, sustainable development.

I was also pleased to advise honourable members that this principle of sustainable forestry development has been applied in the urban tree planting program that I was able to announce just last week. That program will see the planting of approximately 3,500 green ash and basswood trees on the properties of land owners who have lost trees to Dutch elm disease. Only through a combination of tree removal and tree planting will we ensure that our urban forest remains sustainable. This program will ensure that the city of Winnipeg remains green now and in the future while providing jobs for our young people today.

I would ask all honourable members to take these trees with them to ensure that they are planted where they can grow and be enjoyed. I might suggest that maybe some of them need some watering pretty soon. Thank you.

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Mr. Clif Evans: It is certainly my privilege to reply to the minister's statement this afternoon regarding National Forest Week in Manitoba.

The minister's statement has indicated that the announcement of the $1‑million federal announcement‑‑that the program is to ensure that trees will be reforested and regrown. I would like to also remind the minister and members on the opposite side of the House that the forestry department and forestry in Manitoba is of great importance to this province.

We are well aware of the fact that some years ago, in the Interlake itself, we had devastating loss in forestry, and I would encourage the minister to not only include the urban renewal of the growth of trees in maintaining the greenery in Winnipeg but also to encourage his department to expand in rural Manitoba, where we also have a tremendous need for further sustainable development for jobs, Mr. Speaker, and also to remind the minister that in his announcement on the Dutch elm disease, Dutch elm disease is also spreading very, very quickly throughout rural Manitoba. I would ask the minister that in his department, he provide, not only the urban centre with more funds to be able to prevent this disease but also to enhance the growth of future trees, not only in Winnipeg, but in rural Manitoba.

However, Mr. Speaker, I would just also like to comment and thank the minister for his lovely trees. We certainly will, on this side of the House, grow them at the appropriate spots. I know that this tree here will be in the Interlake some time this week. Thank you very much.

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank the minister for yet another tree. I have a row of these growing in the back of my property, and for any of those who are not using them, I will be happy to take them off their hands.

Forestry in this province is at a critical juncture. I think all Manitobans who have been following issues with respect to our forests and forest management realize that. There are some very hopeful signs. I point to the experimental forest application to the federal government, which has come forward now from Abitibi‑Price and from various environmental groups, presently in the hands of our federal counterparts.

We are waiting for information as to whether or not the Manitoba application has been chosen, but we are all hopeful. The most hopeful sign, at the outset, was that environmentalists and the foresters themselves, Abitibi‑Price, in particular in this case, came together in a joint application. That was a very, very hopeful sign for the future of forest management in this province, Mr. Speaker.

That consensus building was seen again in response to the CEC decision of a couple of months ago. When the decision came down, of course, Abitibi‑Price, the people in Pine Falls, are very upset because they perceived it to mean that their livelihoods were threatened. Mr. Speaker, when they came together with the environmental groups involved, I think both sides were surprised that they could reach consensus, and they did.

They went down that road, and for unfortunate reasons, it did not crystallize in a positive recommendation to the minister at that time. The point is they came to an agreement on the critical factors and a way to implement the CEC decision so that it did not mean that jobs were cost at Pine Falls.

Now, the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), I believe, dropped the ball, Mr. Speaker, and did not take them up on their offer to appoint a mediator, and for that I think he will regret that decision. The point is that we are seeing signs of a coming together and a consensus building between both the forest companies as well as the environmental groups, and that is a very, very positive move.

We are now at a stage where certain states in the United States require 40 percent recycled product in their paper products. That is clearly the way of the future. The way of the future for Abitibi‑Price, for other manufacturers including Repap and others, is to include recycled materials, to join the move towards sustainable development, which means higher and higher levels of recycled product.

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Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see this announcement today, specifically to do with turning private forest into areas of economic growth in a sustainable way that is consistent with our environmental principles. I do believe that if we are going to capitalize‑‑and there is every reason for this province to do it as much as any other province in this country‑‑on the desire of the community at large to ensure sustainable forests and capitalize on the good will of both the environmental groups who are involved, as well as the producers, government must lead.

The CEC decision stood for the principle that government in this province was not leading. I call on government to lead in all areas of forest management, and I congratulate them on this program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review on the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba.

Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker I have a ministerial statement to make.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform you and my honourable colleagues that the negotiators for the Province of Manitoba, the Government of Canada, Manitoba Hydro and the Split Lake Cree First Nation have recommended a comprehensive agreement to settle the outstanding obligations flowing from the Northern Flood Agreement. This proposed agreement is the result of more than two years of intensive, determined negotiations involving all four parties.

Each party must go through the formal processes required for approval. This includes a referendum to be held by the Split Lake chief and council by asking for the approval of the Split Lake residents. The chief and his council have attempted to maintain an open line of communication with the residents of Split Lake to build a consensus and ensure the agreement is understood.

Both federal and provincial governments, along with the Manitoba Hydro‑Electric Board, will go through a further process of review. This is a comprehensive agreement that fully and finally releases the province from all obligations under the 1977 Northern Flood Agreement and provides the Split Lake Cree with $47.37 million.

The funds from this agreement will be administered through trust arrangements. The proposed agreement also includes resource management, environmental monitoring, land transfers and social and economic initiatives. Honourable members know our government has indicated our commitment to settle outstanding claims under the Northern Flood Agreement. It is a responsibility and an obligation we take very seriously. In solving our differences, we will be able to move on to new challenges.

Mr. Speaker, this agreement will fully release the province from any further obligations to the Split Lake Cree under the Northern Flood Agreement. That does not mean we stop working with the Split Lake community. We have clarified our various roles and can now move on to tackle other challenges.

I think this agreement involving the Split Lake Cree shows hard work and determined negotiations. The four other bands affected by the Northern Flood Agreement have chosen to implement their claims under the original 1977 agreement. The invitation to globally negotiate remains open to the four bands: Norway House, Cross Lake, Nelson House and York Landing, who are still under the original Northern Flood Agreement.

I am pleased with the efforts that all parties have made, and I look forward to future co‑operation that can benefit all Manitobans. I will be providing further information for members of the Legislature and the public as the process allows. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): We, on this side, certainly welcome any progress that is made on the Northern Flood Agreement. It was signed in 1977 by the then Sterling Lyon government. It has been 15 years. There are many lengthy, complex negotiations that have been part of this set of negotiations, Mr. Speaker.

As the member of the Legislature representing Split Lake, I know. I have had the opportunity to talk to the chief and members of the council and with the community on a regular basis about the progress of negotiations. Also, I am sure the minister is aware, there are continuing negotiations and continuing concerns of the four other bands which were signatory to the Northern Flood Agreement, concerns still related to environmental assessments, part of the original 1977 Northern Flood Agreement.

In commenting on the particular agreement, I would indicate to the minister that I know the position of the Split Lake Band is one, of course, that will be subject to referendum, but it is clearly, from their point, not a question of giving up all their rights as aboriginal people in terms of questions related to land in terms of environmental damage, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that in suggesting that this releases the province from obligations under the Northern Flood Agreement, the specific wording of the 1977 agreement, the minister would also acknowledge the position of the Split Lake band and other bands which have yet to sign a final agreement with the government that they are no way seeing this process of negotiations as leading to anything other than the implementation of the 1977 agreement.

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They still reserve the right to deal with governments related to any environmental damage that may result from past or future dams, hydro developments, in fact, any resource development. I think that is important because aboriginal people, I know, have said very clearly in regard to the Northern Flood Agreement that this, in many ways, has mirrored their experience generally, whether it be in terms of treaties, whether it be in terms of land claims, whether it be in terms of self‑government. One lesson I think we all need to learn in society, Mr. Speaker, is to understand that the aboriginal people have a unique relationship with the land.

When we are talking about the legal system, whether it be a flood agreement with all its frustrations and lengthy negotiations, long after the flood agreement is merely a footnote in history, the aboriginal people of Split Lake, the aboriginal people of northern Manitoba, will still have their unique relationship with the land. So we should not be assuming, Mr. Speaker, that the signing of any agreement in any way changes that. This is really just another chapter.

It is nice to see that this final negotiation has taken place for the community of Split Lake. We have much more to be done, not only in terms of the Northern Flood Agreement, but in terms of clearly recognizing the right of aboriginal people to the land which they have traditionally used. Indeed, we will be making comments on that I am sure in this session and in many sessions to come in the Legislature.

Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, we, too, certainly want to join in our thanks to the parties involved on both sides of this and our congratulations that they have been able to come to an arrangement after 15 years of dealing with this issue. It is high time.

I notice that my friend from Thompson indicates that we have all learned certain things. I think, if we learned one thing about this, it is how not to go about northern hydro development, and that is not the way that the NDP let us down in the 1970s. I note that Mr. Eliesen was representing us back then, and now he is the head of Ontario Hydro, better that than Manitoba Hydro.

Mr. Speaker, after 15 years, it is time that these people had a future and had some opportunity to maximize what they have in northern Manitoba and to move forward and beyond the destruction of some of the hydro developments. Recognizing the human and the financial cost of hydro development in northern Manitoba today should be a necessary part of hydro development, and it should be what we do before we build these dams.

Unfortunately, this government, I think, purports to have learned the lesson from prior failures of the NDP, but I am not sure they have. I see increased investment and increased evidence that the government is pushing forward with Conawapa no matter what. Everything in between is just something to go through to get the ultimate result, Mr. Speaker, and that is wrong. We have surely learned by this point that we have to think first and build later and recognize the full cost before we not only invest but wreak havoc in areas where 15 years later, like this, we will still be trying to settle the outstanding claims.

Mr. Speaker, I want to raise one issue for the minister. The minister indicates that this will be the subject of a referendum. I know in the past, he knows in the past, there have been problems in dealing with membership and who gets to vote on these things. Those are issues that I will be looking for answers on. I look forward to some of his promise of further information. He has indicated that further information will be forthcoming, and we certainly look forward to that.

We also look forward to progress reports in the upcoming Estimates on the negotiations that are going on with the other bands, Mr. Speaker. We hope indeed that reconciliations can be had with them as well. As my friend had indicated correctly, much work is left, but surely at this point, recognizing the agreement that has been reached here, congratulations must go to the parties involved.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Economic Growth

Government Initiatives

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on November 1, 1990, the Premier stated to us in this House that we are faring better in this recession than most other provinces and talked about the good times Manitoba would enjoy in the future.

On March 13, 1991, the other part of the economic troika of the government, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) stated: You must realize that Manitoba is doing much better than the rest of Canada, and it is coming through this session reasonably well in comparison. The government must get credit for this performance, the minister said.

Further, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) told us in 1990 when we were faced with the 1991 recession: Manitoba is a beacon in the dark because we are performing so well in a relative sense to other provinces in this country.

Mr. Speaker, Friday, the gross domestic product as a factor cost came out in this country, the measurement of all economic performances, private and public of the government, and unfortunately, Manitoba was last in economic performance in the whole country‑‑dead last. We have gone back through the years, and the last time that Manitoba was last was when Walter Weir was defeated by Ed Schreyer in 1969 in terms of economic performance and last place.

I would ask the Premier: Why are we in last place, and what is his government doing about a situation that has not taken place in this province for 23 years?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I note that the member was quoting from comments that I made in 1990 and comments that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) was making in 1990. At that time indeed, according to Stats Canada, we had a growth rate in 1990 of 3.5 percent. Indeed we were faring better than the national average. Those were accurate comments that you found, so I thank him for confirming the veracity of those comments.

In 1991, as I said publicly on Friday, it was a bad year right across the country. Everybody suffered and suffered dramatically from the recession. In Manitoba terms, the reasons that are put forward by Stats Canada are that we had the lowest growth in labour income in the country, and that primarily is because we chose strategically to freeze public sector wages and set a target that was matched by most private sector employers.

The wage increase kept taxes down in this province. Unlike other provinces, we chose not to raise taxes, so we have had five straight budgets of no increase in taxes, and we have positioned ourselves better for the recovery for the future. As a result, Stats Canada, the very people from whom he derives his information, along with most of the major forecasters, are suggesting that in 1992, '93 and '94, we will perform better than the national average, probably in the top four provinces in the country.

We think that is good news, Mr. Speaker, and we think that looking to the future positively is the sort of thing that everybody should be doing. We regret that the Leader of the Opposition persists in his gloom and doom, dark approach to all of things in society. That is not what the people are looking for. The people are looking for positive leadership, and that is what they are getting.

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Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the people are looking for jobs. The young people waiting in line today are looking for jobs. They are looking for economic opportunity. They are looking for performance. They are not looking for last‑place finishes that this Premier brags about in this House. He quotes 1990; in 1990 we were in eighth place. I guess 1990 was a great year according to the Premier because, in 1991, we were in tenth or in last place of all provinces in this country.

I would ask the Premier, as head of the economic committee of cabinet, that $900,000 secretariat that they created and he chairs: What action is he going to take to start dealing with the 60,000 who are unemployed, the thousands of young people who cannot get jobs, the increase in welfare rates that are developing on the basis of Manitoba being in last place in 1991 in economic performance? What action is he going to take?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that we are beyond 1991 and that the economic forecasters, the banks and Stats Canada are suggesting that 1992, '93 and '94 will all be better years because we have kept the taxes down, because we have kept the deficit down. We have built the kind of foundation that people are looking for.

They are projecting a 31.7 percent increase in manufacturing capital investment. They are suggesting that as a province in 1992, we are going to have the highest overall increase in capital investment, the second‑highest increase in private capital investment. Those are the kinds of things that the Economic Development Board of Cabinet has been working on.

Government Forecast

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): These are the same recorded announcements we received from the Premier in 1990, the same recorded announcements we received from his economic ministers in 1991, and it is the same kind of recorded announcements we get from the Premier again today, not acknowledging the pain and suffering that is induced on Manitobans with a 10th or last‑place performance by this government.

I would ask the Premier: In light of the fact that private sector investment and many other sectors of investment have gone down, and in light of the fact that banks are downgrading the growth predictions for Manitoba, even as we speak today‑‑[interjection] Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) gets upset from his seat. I guess I would be upset too if I predicted we would be doing better than any other province in Canada and came in 10th place or last place‑‑[interjection] 10th place is fair.

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Mr. Doer: My question to the First Minister is: When will we in this province, in 1992, be equal to the lost growth in 1991 so that we are even with what happened in the election? What are his predictions, in this House, when we will gain back the lost jobs, the lost opportunities, the lost investment, the loss in our future in 1992 to make up for the tremendous decline in growth and economic opportunity suffered under his government in 1991?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as I said before, the fact is that every one of the economic forecasters, major economic forecasters is suggesting that in 1992, '93 and '94, we will be among the top four.

CareerStart

Program Funding

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Family Services.

r. Speaker, youth unemployment is now at 18.6 percent, which is abnormally high. In fact, it is the highest ever recorded since statistics were kept on youth unemployment in this province.

Unemployment is expected to remain high during this year. In fact, Mr. Speaker, these high unemployment figures are reflected in the disappointment and the frustration of students who are finding it almost impossible to find jobs this summer.

I ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, will this government reconsider its allocation of money slotted for CareerStart? Specifically, will the government increase the CareerStart funding from $3.5 million back to $7 million, where it was a couple of years ago?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): The member references the youth unemployment rates in Manitoba, and I say to the member that youth unemployment rates across this country are high. For the January to March period, 1992, Manitoba was in third place. The Maritime provinces and other provinces have a much higher unemployment rate with their youth than Manitoba.

Having said that, however, we have maintained our CareerStart Program at last year's levels. We have also introduced a new program, the Partners with Youth program, that is now taking applications, that there are a lot of municipal level governments and nonprofit organizations interested in that program, and that will allow us to create an extra 700 jobs this year as those applications come in and are approved.

Status Report

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Young people are looking for jobs that are not there.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: How many youth job positions were cut by this government since it took office in 1988; that is, how many job positions for youth were there in '88? How many are there today under the downscaled youth CareerStart Program?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I say to the member that we have maintained that program, even in very difficult economic times, maintained it at last year's level. We have introduced a new program, and I might point out to him that we are also maintaining some 44 youth job employment offices across this province.

Last year, we had some 13,000 students registered at those job offices which are located in 44 of our communities, and we were able to place almost 9,000 of them. So our budget for those youth employment offices has been maintained and again will be in operation this summer.

Youth Employment Programs

Northern Manitoba

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I ask this minister: Will the government re‑establish the youth employment program in northern Manitoba which was abolished last year? I ask this in view of the fact that northern unemployment is dramatically higher than the provincial average for youth unemployment.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the program that the member references was operated by the federal government last year. We have maintained our programs, and young people in the North have every opportunity to access the job employment offices, to access CareerStart programming, as well as the Partners with Youth program.

Student Aid

Application Statistics

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today Canada Student Youth Employment Centres opened up across this nation. They opened up for business in a climate which is less than positive. We know that there are no jobs for young people. That is why we have such a very high unemployment rate. We know that jobs have been cut in the private sector as well as in the government sector. We know that they are facing 18 percent increases in student fees, and we know that there is less money available to them in the student loan system than there was two years ago.

The Minister of Education says she has increased it from last year. Well, yes, she has, but she is still, through her ministry, $600,000 less than she was two years ago. At the same time, she, by her own figures, admits there will be an increase of applicants by 43 percent.

Can she tell the House today where those 43 percent of new applicants are to go for student assistance in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add to the figures to clarify for the members in this House. Over the past four years, there has been almost $4 million more put into the student assistance program. I would also like to remind the member that the program is not capped, and that this year we put in over $600,000 more for student assistance. If students are in greater need then, certainly their cases will be examined.

Funding

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the minister is putting misleading information before this House. I traced back to 1989‑90, and the figure for grants is very clear. It is $10,597,300. In 1990‑91, that went to $11,456,900. Last year, it went back to $10,277,000. This year it went up by $10,892,800 total. That is, to be exact, a $573,100 increase year to year, but a $615,800 decrease from two years ago.

Can the minister tell us where in God's name she comes up with $4 million?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): During the Estimates process, I will be happy to provide her with the detailed information of the additional funds which have been put into the area of student aid in the past four years.

I will also remind the member that again this year there has been a commitment by this government. We have increased our funding to student aid by $615,000, and in addition to that, the fund is uncapped.

Appeal Process

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if this lack of capping is accurate, can she explain to this House why she expects a 24 percent increase in student appeals for student bursaries?

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Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we certainly want to take a look at the particular situation of students who find themselves in financial need during the course of their studies. The appeal process is available to those students, whatever their age and whatever their family circumstance, if they believe that they have a concern which they would like to have brought forward. Those are estimated numbers, and I am very pleased that we do have a process where awards can be re‑examined where necessary.

Department of Highways and Transportation

District 10 Headquarters

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions will be directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs, who is also responsible for hydro and is also the Deputy Premier.

In view of the fact that the North West Company is laying off 15 employees in The Pas, as well as the continuing layoffs in the woodlands division of Repap and other layoffs in the area, and the importance of roads to the northern economy, could I ask the minister whether he will consult with and urge his colleague the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), and indeed the cabinet, to commit his government to keeping The Pas as District 10 centre headquarters, with the same number of employees that are there now.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs and responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the specifics dealing with Highways and Transportation, I will allow or request my colleague the Minister of Highways to respond to that.

I do think, Mr. Speaker, to be fair, to point out to the member for The Pas the activities that are going on in northern Manitoba, particularly northwest Manitoba, this government's commitment of $55 million to the smelter in Flin Flon, which is a major impact, this government's commitment to the tree operation at The Pas.

The member has to be, as well, aware of the fact that when the government of which he sits left office, there was still some 90 percent unemployment in most of the northern communities, excluding probably The Pas, but in a lot of the remote communities, we saw 90 percent plus in unemployment, which the member for the Churchill constituency knows as well.

The Pas, Manitoba

Employment Opportunities

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): I want to ask the minister again: What has the minister done in conjunction with his colleague the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) to protest to his federal counterparts in Ottawa concerning more proposed job cuts at The Pas?

You see, these were only 15 jobs, but there are three more jobs being proposed to be terminated in six months in The Pas, at The Pas airport. If he has not consulted with his colleague the Minister of Highways, can he tell the House what they are prepared to do to speak on behalf of those people, northern people, who face job cuts in The Pas?

I would like to ask the minister finally: When is he going to give the people of The Pas a fair shake?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs and responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that we are very concerned about The Pas and the North. We have established, as he knows, a Northern Development Commission, which will bring forward policies and recommendations to assist with activities that are going on.

I want to remind the member, as well, that he sits with a government that frittered some $27 million away in a bridge without a road to it, north of Selkirk, that would have given the Department of Highways a little more latitude. He sits with a government that frittered $27 million away in Saudi Arabia, left us with an annual interest charge of $550 million.

Tough decisions have to be made, Mr. Speaker, and it is a matter of trying to make sure that we get through these difficult economic times and we get onto future economic activities.

Norway House

Fisherman's Co-op Compensation

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my final question is again to the minister.

We have just listened to a ministerial statement regarding hydro settlement. I want to ask the minister: Why has his cabinet and treasury board not yet approved the outstanding sum agreed to by Manitoba Hydro to the Norway House Fisherman's Co‑op for compensation for the period of June 1, 1991, to May 31 of this year when it should have been paid, as per the agreement, within 30 days of the signing of the order of the arbitrator?

Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I will hold our record up as far as northern settlements are concerned with Manitoba Hydro, with the Manitoba government. In fact, in the Grand Rapids forebay settlement, he and his colleagues ignored and neglected and continually said they did not have a legal obligation. This Premier (Mr. Filmon) said to Manitoba Hydro, let us take a look; let us take a look at what obligations we have. Settlements have been made in his community. As the process proceeds, we will be making those kinds of settlements when all the work is done.

Ashern, Manitoba

Ground Water Contamination

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Environment, concerning ground water pollution in this province and specifically in the village of Ashern.

I would like to ask the minister what actions his department has taken for the residents of Ashern since his letter to my inquires on the subject in November of last year, in which a consultant's report was to be released on the problem.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, this has been an ongoing problem, one of historical origin as a matter of fact. That is one of the difficulties that we have in dealing with it, that there is probably more than one source of contamination. At the same time, I recognize the concerns that the people in the community have, but there are no good immediate alternate sources of water other than for small amounts of water for consumption.

We have not proceeded beyond the study phase, but we are planning on meeting further with the representatives of the community and trying to develop an action plan from that.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Speaker, can this same minister inform this House as to whether or not his department was involved in the negotiations between the Ashern water supply committee and Petro‑Canada just in the past three weeks?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if I would characterize the involvement of the department as negotiations. We are obviously involved at almost every step of the process.

If the member has a specific issue that is concerning him beyond just the general principles, I would be more than glad to work with him.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Speaker, will the minister today commit his department's speedy assistance in order to provide the much‑needed support for the community of Ashern and the health and well‑being of the people in Ashern?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, we are more than willing to work with the community. There are a number of other communities besides this one that have considerable problems associated with ground water contamination. To put the whole issue in perspective, we also have a number of communities that do not have a supply of water, period, contaminated or otherwise. It is an increasing problem across the province of contamination and one which the Department of Rural Development, the Department of Environment, in all of our various responsibilities, we know that the future development of the communities will be tied to the ability to have a good potable source of drinking water.

North American Free Trade Agreement

Water Exports

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, since 1988, we on this side of the House have been very concerned about the impact of the U.S.‑Canada Free Trade Agreement, and particularly its impact on this province.

Some new statistics from Statistics Canada suggest that over this last four years, Canada has lost something in the order of $8 billion in economic activity, and industrial production in this country has dropped some 9 percent while it has increased in the U.S.

I note that the Minister of Trade has come back from some meetings with the federal Minister of Trade, and we have been asking some very serious questions about the U.S.‑Canada‑Mexico agreement. In particular, I have some questions on the impact of the effect on water, on the cross‑border transportation of water.

I would like to ask the minister today: Did he receive some assurances from the federal minister that water is not included in this new deal?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): From our review of the documentation that has been provided to us in confidence from the federal government, water is not an issue in terms of the proposed Canada‑U.S.‑Mexico free trade agreement, other than potentially the issue of bottled water for distribution between countries.

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Mr. Alcock: Did the minister share with the federal minister the concerns that have been raised in this House, particularly given the very poor performance that this country has had under this agreement?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have on several occasions raised the concerns of the citizens of Manitoba as outlined to us when we did our consultation process back last year, back in June and July of last year.

I have also raised concerns that have come to light from our perspective from review of the documentation we have been provided with. I have also raised some concerns that have arisen from comments and questions in the House.

Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, we raised the concern about the cross‑border pipelines to transport water.

Did the minister receive an assurance from the federal minister that those pipelines would not be transporting Canadian water?

Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I will take part of the question as notice to get back to the honourable member with the details.

Again, our review of the internal