LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, May 5, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

 

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lorraine Roels, Coreen Roulette, Hedwig Mueller and others urging the government to consider establishing an Office of the Children's Advocate independent of cabinet and reporting directly to the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Al Park, Lori Pichor, E. Sandercock and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider a one‑year moratorium on the closure on the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).  It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

      WHEREAS the Dutch Elm Disease control program is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm trees; and

      WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) himself stated that, "It is vital that we continue our active fight against Dutch Elm Disease in Manitoba," and

      WHEREAS despite that verbal commitment, the government of Manitoba has cut its funding to the City's DED control program by half of the 1990 level, a move that will jeopardize the survival of Winnipeg's elm trees.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the government of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Natural Resources to consider restoring the full funding of the Dutch Elm Disease control program to the previous level of 1990.

* * *

      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member of Wellington (Ms. Barrett).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

      THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and

      It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and

      Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

      The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign.

* (1335)

* * *

      I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

      The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

      The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba; and

      The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital and view it as a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and

      The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occur; and

      The administration of the hospital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1.3 million; and

      WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid layoffs and cutbacks to vital services.

 

PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES

 

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Committees):  The Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

      I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to.

 

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  It is with considerable pleasure that I table the Annual Report, the year ending 1990‑91, The Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation.

     

   Introduction of Guests

 

Mr. Speaker:  Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Garden City Collegiate, twenty‑six Grade 11 students under the direction of Roberta Topping.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

      Also this afternoon, we have the Student Council of the Silver Heights Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Wallace Linton, the principal.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

      Also this afternoon, from Acadia Junior High School, we have twenty‑one Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Wanda Dombek.  This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).

      On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

     

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Economic Growth

Private Sector Investment

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Yes, Mr. Speaker, the question is to the First Minister.

      Last Friday, unfortunately, statistics provided by Statistics Canada indicated that the GDP growth in Manitoba, as a basis of factor costs, was the last place in the whole country in terms of economic performance.  Mr. Speaker, this is the first time since Walter Weir was defeated by Ed Schreyer in 1969 that we were in last place, unfortunately.

      Mr. Speaker, the Premier has tried to create an illusion with the public that it is based on labour incomes in this province. In spite of the fact that other provinces in Atlantic Canada had the same public sector wage freeze that the Premier implemented in this province, the Premier has tried to create the illusion that this is the reason for the decline in domestic growth in this province, being in last place.

      Mr. Speaker, if you really look at the numbers, it is really that the decline takes place in the private sector.  Many of the factors of private sector investment in 1991 declined dramatically.  I would ask the question, in 1991, the private capital investment declined some 15.3 percent, the largest decline of any province in the country‑‑again, last place.  I would ask the Premier why private sector investment declined $277 million in 1991, the largest decline of any province in Canada?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, we notice the priorities and the directions of the New Democratic Party.  They always have their directions in reverse, always heading backwards and always looking for where they can find the most negative. The prince of darkness, as I have called him earlier, is at it over and over again, day after day.

      There is an article in today's paper that he may or may not have read‑‑Manitoba mood called upbeat.  They talk about, again, for the third time in a matter of two weeks, a new forecast coming out by another forecasting organization that is suggesting, once again, that in the coming years, in '92, '93 and '94, we will be in the top part of the provinces of this country in terms of economic growth.

      I also suggest to him that Stats Canada is suggesting that we will have the highest overall capital investment growth of any province in the country this year, in private and public capital investment.  We will have, in terms of manufacturing investment, the highest increase, 31.7 percent in manufacturing capital investment.  These are all the positive signs.

      These are built upon the solid base that we have formed in this province by virtue of the fiscal policies that have kept our taxes down for five straight budgets, that have kept our deficit down at levels, overall, that have been half of those under the Pawley administration, and all this during a period of time in which we have had a very, very severe recession.

      We have set the base.  We have set the opportunity. Obviously forecasters are suggesting that we will now see the kinds of fruits of our labour that all of us want to have, all of us, that is, except the Leader of the New Democratic Party, who only wants to see negative situations in this province, who only wants to preach doom and gloom, who does not want to believe in the people of this province.

      We believe in the people of this province, and we believe the growth that is being forecast will indeed come forward because of the policies that we have set in place.

* (1340)

 

Manufacturing Investment

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, what we want this Premier to do is accept responsibility for his last‑place performance in economic performance, primarily in the private sector.

      On November 1, 1990, the Premier said in this Chamber, again, Manitoba is to outshine the rest of the nation.  That is the headline of the Business section of this morning's Free Press. Of course, if it had been bad news, it would have been on page one.

      The Premier keeps pulling out these things from the Business section, Mr. Speaker, but economic performance belies the Premier's words in this Chamber.

      A second question‑‑the Premier has not answered why private sector investment was in last place.  He has not answered the question, if you go down 15 percent, that is not a solid foundation, as the Premier alleges.  That is a decline of our foundation, Mr. Speaker.  In fact, we are back to pre‑'85 days in private sector investment.  I think the Premier should be accountable for that point.

      Mr. Speaker, the manufacturing investment in this province declined 38.1 percent, the second worst performance in 1991 in this very important private sector area of any other province in Canada.  Only Nova Scotia was worse.

      Can the Premier, as chair of the economic committee of cabinet and as the person who is in charge of the economy of this province, explain to the people of Manitoba why we were second last in this other very important issue of economic performance?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Again, the Leader of the Opposition wants to concentrate on the past.  We did not put in place the Economic Development Board of Cabinet until last fall, late in the fall, after the year was already done, because we saw the things that had to be done.

      We put in place the budgetary conditions, no increase in taxes for five straight budgets under this administration, a deficit that has been kept much more under control than all of the other deficits in this country, including particularly New Democratic provinces who are raising taxes and deficits right across the country.

      The results of it are that this year, manufacturing capital investment is expected to be the highest increase of any province in the country.  That is the kind of thing that is resulting from the policies that we have put in place.

 

Economic Summit

Implementation

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  A final question‑‑and the Premier again, looking at private sector indicators of the onomy, a final indication is that residential construction declined in Manitoba by 40 percent, Mr. Speaker.  Now, it is going to go up this year.  If you are going to go up from three houses to four houses, it is going to go up 33 percent, but it declined by 40 percent.[interjection]  Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will want to explain why Manitoba was in last place in terms of residential construction investment in 1991.

      Will the Premier now admit that they do not have a clue about what is going on in this economy?  They are not getting the investment that they talked about in both the private and public sectors.  Will he do something positive like an economic summit of business, labour and government to get Manitobans working together to get our economy on a good path, a positive path, in 1992?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is dead wrong.  The figures he quotes demonstrate that we are getting the results and the performance that we were looking for.

      Every single one of the forecasters is suggesting that we will be in the top three or four provinces in the country in terms of economic growth, in terms of private capital investment, in terms of public capital investment, in terms of housing starts, in terms of every one of those indicators, manufacturing capital investment, every single one of them.  All of the forecasters are suggesting that in '92, '93, '94, we are going to be in the top half of the provinces in the country as a result of the things that we did in a difficult year.

      Nobody suggests that 1991 was not a tough year on our economy, as it was on economies everywhere in this world.  The only place that fact has been lost is in the mind of the Leader of the Opposition, who does not know what is happening anywhere in the world.  He has his head in the sand, and he is looking at what is in his own political interest to look at.  We are looking at what is in the best interests of the people of Manitoba.

* (1345)

 

Mining Communities

Government Initiatives

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, maybe the Premier (Mr. Filmon) should take that message to Snow Lake.

      On Sunday afternoon, I attended a meeting with hundreds of other people from the community of Snow Lake, as they listened to their own obituary.  This is the third mining community in northern Manitoba who has to listen to their own obituary and then read it in the paper the next day, while this minister was in charge.

      Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Mineral Resources corporation, a Crown corporation, has some $24 million in the bank.

      Can the Minister of Energy and Mines or the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) explain to the people of Snow Lake why this government has been so indifferent, has refused to act in the interests of protecting the community and the jobs of those 480 families who are now dispossessed in Snow Lake?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, I want to first of all express the concern for the individuals who are impacted when these kinds of things happen dealing with a mining community.  That is why this government took a very proactive position and introduced one of the best mining incentive programs in this country.  We introduced an exploration incentive program that is not matched anywhere in this country, so that the private sector could come forward, along with the mineral resources exploration program of government, to find those resources that are there, to bring new life to communities such as Snow Lake.

      What I would ask the member is:  Why, in his term of government, did they not introduce something?  They put us in the worst position in this country, Mr. Speaker, as far as taxes are concerned in the mining industry.

Mr. Storie:   . . . dollars in Leaf Rapids, in Snow Lake and in Flin Flon.

      Mr. Speaker, the hypocrisy of this minister, to stand up and say the Mineral Exploration Incentive Program, which was introduced in 1991, was going to be of any help.  Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting could not take advantage of the program. They were excluded.  I raised it with this minister.

      Mr. Speaker, why has this government been so indifferent to the fate of mining communities in northern Manitoba?  What are the Minister of Energy and Mines, the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey) going to do to protect these people and secure their future?

Mr. Downey:  Again, the member wants to play politics with the lives of the people of Snow Lake, rather than deal genuinely with the concerns of the mining industry.

      There is, Mr. Speaker, an extended exploration budget being put in place by HBM&S for that community.  Some $4.5 million will be spent this year in the exploration field.

      As well, Mr. Speaker, this government has put a program in place that will encourage exploration.  Mining companies like HBM&S will be able to write off 150 percent of their exploration expenses against their income.  That is available to HBM&S.

 

Exploration

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, the government has known about this for at least a year and perhaps two.  As much as two years ago, I was asking the then Minister of Energy and Mines to double the exploration budget of Manitoba Mineral Resources to prevent this kind of tragedy.

      My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines, the minister responsible for MMR.

      Why has the government refused the pleas of the community and myself to increase the exploration budget as much as two or three years ago to prevent the closure today because of a lack of ore?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, there has been approximately $30 million expended in that area over the last 10 years to find new orebodies.  We have not reduced the expenditures.  In fact, the expenditures have been increased by HBM&S to find new reserves.  We have put in place tax policies that are exceptionally good for the searching of new mineral deposits.

      I can say, Mr. Speaker, why did the government, of which he sat as the minister, not‑‑why were those programs not in place five years ago and six and seven years ago to encourage investment? [interjection]

      No, they were not.  In fact, the mining industry believed that the New Democratic Party policies were still in place and that we wanted to participate in 50 percent of every mine that was developed in this country.  That is not the case.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, we‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has already used his question and his two supplementary questions.

* (1350)

 

Social Assistance

Food Allowance

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, for days, we have been hearing the bad economic forecasts and the forecasts about the very low quality of education that is available to our children from coast to coast in this country.  It is time to put a very human face on the whole issue of how people are surviving in Manitoba.

      Winnipeg Harvest indicates that they have had a 111 percent increase in the number of households turning to food banks. Unfortunately, their donations of food have only increased by 65 percent.  We have had an increase in volunteer hours, a recognition of the participatory nature of Manitoba, because we have seen an increase of 112 percent.

      We have a Family Services minister who has before us in this House a bill which is going to reduce the benefit for food that people are going to receive.  Mr. Speaker, infants on a provincial payment scale will receive $83.90.  At present, they are receiving $152 per month.

      Will the minister explain to this House why this government is going to get a cash revenue increase as a result of this new system of $5.6 million?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, much of what the member has put on the record is in error.

      The bill before the House, Bill 70, is to create the same entrance requirements across this province to access social allowances and to indicate that there will be a standardized level of social allowances.  That is what the bill is intended to do, and we look forward to members entering the debate on Bill 70.

      The government, the department is currently meeting with members of the SARC committee, which has members from MAUM, UMM and the City of Winnipeg‑‑brought a report before government as a result of hearings and discussions that they had, calling on the government to do two things and to make access to social allowances equal across the province and to standardize the rates.  That is what the bill is going to do.

      We are currently meeting with the SARC committee to work out a lot of the other details that will be put in place after Bill 70 is passed.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, 89 percent of all social assistance recipients live in Winnipeg.  Winnipeg has considerably higher assistance rates for food than does the rest of the province of Manitoba, 11 percent.

      Will the minister explain why he is accepting as his level playing field, the level playing field of 11 percent of the social assistance recipients and not the level playing field of 89 percent of the social assistance recipients, resulting in for a family of one adult and one infant and one five‑year‑old child, $102.50 less a month for food, $1,230 a year less for food?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, again the member, I think, needs to take an accurate look at the legislation that is before the House to see what in fact it does, and that is to create one standard rate across the province and to set the same entrance requirements for people wishing to access social allowances.

      The rates will be set on an annual basis.  At the current time, the department is involved with members of the SARC committee looking at many details that have to be dealt with prior to this legislation being put into force.  So on the question of rates, I think it is premature for the member to be saying that the rate is this level or that level.  Those points are points of discussion that are currently going on with the SARC committee.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, what I am quoting are the rates set by the province and the city as of March 20, 1992.  There has been no rate change since that time.  The minister, on April 13, 1992, admits that some municipalities have higher rates.

      Will he now admit that Winnipeg, with 89 percent of the social assistance recipients, is the municipality with the higher rate, and will he now commit that it is that higher rate for food which will become the standard in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, I say again, the legislation is still before the House.  The legislation will come into force probably some time in 1992 or 1993.  The actual rates will be determined, and the details will be worked out between the department and the members of the SARC committee.  These negotiations and discussions are still going on.

* (1355)

 

Mining Community Reserve Fund

Snow Lake, Manitoba

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier, who does not seem to want to bother himself with the dirty details of 1,500 people losing their jobs, their homes and their community.

      The Premier and this government are in charge of the Mining Community Reserve Fund which has some $10 million at least at its disposal.

      Will the First Minister today agree to commit those funds and more, if necessary, to the 480 households, many of whom are going to be asked to move their homes and their possessions?  Will he commit today to provide support in the neighbourhood of $15,000 to $25,000, which it would take for each person to relocate?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, the member for Flin Flon knows full well that his comments are not accurate.

      The fact of the matter is, this government, because it wanted to increase investment in exploration and development, has brought in a series of programs that are designed to do precisely that.  For the first time in 20 years, we are seeing massive increases in exploration drilling in this province in northern Manitoba.

      It goes all the way back to the Schreyer government of the 1970s, when various programs were put in place that essentially confiscated mining revenues and mining properties from the people who were there.  As a result, wholesale companies that had been exploring in northern Manitoba just withdrew and left from this province and never came back for 20 years, until just this last year, as a result of the Mineral Exploration Incentive Program and the further policies of this budget.

      He presided over a government and over a mines department that essentially kept out exploration and development from the private sector, which is what killed the opportunities for Snow Lake and every other mining community to survive in northern Manitoba.  It is on his head that this, in fact, rests, Mr. Speaker.  It is on his head that all of this policy has resulted in the people in Snow Lake having difficulties.

      This government has put $55 million into the renovation and upgrade of Flin Flon, the smelter there, to preserve‑‑[interjection] Mr. Speaker, none of this was done under New Democratic governments.  New Democratic governments would not risk a nickel in terms of support for these mining communities and would not put in place policies that would encourage exploration and development.  Unfortunately, the people in those communities are paying the price as a result of their ignorance and of their bad policies.

 

Mining Communities

Employment Retraining Program

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, I can only say there he goes again, misleading the Legislature and the people . . . .

      In 1988, this government, the NDP government, invested some $17.7 million‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  I would remind the honourable member for Flin Flon this is not a time for debate.  Kindly put your question, please.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, is there no rule to protect the people of Manitoba from the kind of misinformation this‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.

* * *

Mr. Speaker:  The honourable member for Flin Flon, kindly put your question, please.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, since this minister took over, this First Minister (Mr. Filmon), there are one thousand‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  Kindly put your question, please.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, will the First Minister now commit to using the offices of the Department of Education and Training, the resources at the disposal of the Minister of Energy and Mines to provide training and retraining opportunities for the 1,000 people who have already lost their jobs in the mining industry since this First Minister became Premier, and the 600 people who we learned on Sunday are likely to lose their jobs by 1994 in the mining industry?  Will he begin a training program now, commit to a training program for these people‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The question has been put.

* (1400)

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, again, it is unfortunate that these kinds of things happen in mining communities.  That is why we have put in programs and initiatives so that we can stem this kind of thing from taking place.  New orebodies being found means new job opportunities.

      We have, some four months ago, Mr. Speaker, put in place a Worker Adjustment Committee with government, working with those communities to help them, to assist them.  There is the Mining Reserve Fund that the member refers to, that we have used in the past to assist when these kinds of unfortunate difficulties come forward.

      Again, Mr. Speaker, let me re‑emphasize what we have said. There is an expansion of resource discovery activity taking place in those communities.  There will be job opportunities with the upgrading of the smelter in that whole area.  Again, we are doing all we can to encourage new mining activity to take place in northern Manitoba.

 

Equity Insurance

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, it becomes increasingly obvious this minister does not know what is going on.

Mr. Speaker:  Question.

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, I will give the Minister of Energy and Mines and the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), if he cares to dirty his hands on this issue of 480 people‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  The question is?

Mr. Storie:  Mr. Speaker, some time ago, I offered the Minister of Energy and Mines an opportunity to be positive.

      Can the minister today tell us whether he will reconsider and initiate immediately a plan to establish an equity insurance program for homeowners and small businesses in single‑industry towns in northern Manitoba, so that families will not be faced with this kind of crisis again?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines):  Mr. Speaker, again, one has to be concerned about the individuals who have invested in their homes and their businesses in the single‑mining industries.  The best way to preserve the value of their homes and their communities is to find new orebodies.

      I cannot understand why the member did not, in his term of office, introduce policies that would help that happen.  Mr. Speaker, what they did was continue to raise the taxes that put in disincentives.

      What I do not want to do, Mr. Speaker, is create false expectations in valuations of houses or businesses by the introduction of government money or programming.  We do have to assist those people when it is inevitable that there is no longer any opportunity for them, but let us find an opportunity to continue through what has traditionally been the mining industry.

 

Racism Investigations

Police

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) or the First Minister.

      Last year, after a $3‑million study and years of review, two respected judges recommended that a special investigation unit be set up to investigate allegations regarding incidents involving the police.  Now, after bringing a judge to review the Pollock matter, after having the RCMP review the city of Winnipeg police and bringing in the RCMP for other matters, we still have no action on this recommendation.

      Will the government stop procrastinating and establish such a unit, as recommended in this report, so that when events occur, as did occur in the city of Winnipeg this weekend, an investigation unit can go into effect immediately to deal with the problem?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Justice minister.

Mr. Chomiak:  My supplementary is along the same question, Mr. Speaker.  There is a very good reason for requiring such an investigation unit.  What if this happened with the RCMP?  Who would the minister call in then?  As I understand, the minister may be calling in the RCMP to deal with the Winnipeg instance. What if it were to happen with the RCMP?  Who would they call in then?

Mr. Filmon:  I will take that question as notice as well on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae).

Mr. Chomiak:  My final supplementary, I would urge that the minister bring it to the Justice minister's attention at the first instance, because we have been waiting 10 months for this recommendation.  We have gone through five or six incidents that could have been dealt with by this investigation unit.

 

Economic Growth

Government Policy Performance

 

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, in the four years since this government came to power, we have lost the equivalent of 50,000 people in this province, we are 10th out of 10 in national wealth, we have lost the equivalent of $300 million in retail trade and $91 million in commercial investment.

      I would like to ask the Minister of Industry and Trade a very simple question.  When this government came to power, we were at one level.  Since then, the country has slipped into recession, but this province has slipped much further.  We are now 10th out of 10.  How does the Minister for Industry and Trade explain this?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): At the outset, I do not accept most of the honourable member's preamble.  He picks one particular statistic and generalizes it to all aspects of the economy.  I think for somebody who is showing such a great deal of interest in economic performance indicators, I would encourage him to read all 12 or 13 of them that are prepared by seven different agencies, and he will see how we have fared in other areas, in areas like unemployment as it relates within Canada.

      We willingly admit we are not satisfied with where the percentage is, but within Canada, we are faring very well, and if you go through the list of traditional economic indicators, you will find that Manitoba is faring very well in many areas as it related to other provinces and Canada.

      In terms of the future, Mr. Speaker, which I am sure we are all looking toward the future of Manitoba, the economic indicators show significant strength in manufacturing investment, that we will lead the nation in manufacturing investment, in private investment, in all kinds of economic indicators.  I would encourage the honourable member to take the time to read all indicators in some detail.

Mr. Alcock:  Well, it just so happens that I do read those indicators, and in 11 out of 15, this province has done worse than the rest of this country, worse not better, in 11 out of 15 indicators that are reported on monthly, Mr. Speaker.

      My question for the minister is this:  How does he explain the fact that this province is doing so poorly?

 

Point of Order

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, certainly the Minister of Industry and Trade can answer the question.  The question has been the same day after day.

      I would refer you to Beauchesne 409, point (8):  "A question that has previously been answered ought not to be asked again."

      Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I would refer you to Beauchesne 409.(3) and I quote:  "The question ought to seek information and, therefore, cannot be based upon a hypothesis, cannot seek an opinion, either legal or otherwise, and must not suggest its own answer, be argumentative"‑‑and this is the point I emphasize‑‑"be argumentative or make representations."

      Mr. Speaker, we can go through this day in, day out.  There can be general questions, and we can debate so‑called statements of fact, but by these rules, I say the question that is put over and over again asking for a generalized answer is out of order.

Mr. Alcock:  Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I can understand why the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is so embarrassed by this question, but if you check the record today, you will find that the question I asked the second time was different from the question I asked the first time, and I believe that as a member in this House, I have the right to question the policies of this government, and I shall continue to do so.

      If they cannot explain why their policies are failing, that is their problem, not mine.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I think the government House leader is correct on one point.  Beauchesne is very clear.  A minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insistence on an answer is out of order, with no debate being allowed.

      Indeed, we can understand why the government may not wish to answer this question.  It is obviously very embarrassing to them to be shown day after day to be 10th out of 10 economically, but on the other point raised by the minister, I would suggest to him that if he wishes to get Question Period back to the normal way of functioning, he might ask his minister to just simply answer the question‑‑why are we 10th out of 10?

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, it has been the practice here in Manitoba that Beauchesne's 409.(8)‑‑a question that has previously been answered and ought not to be asked again‑‑generally has been applied to a same sitting day.  This rule has been very relaxed for previous sittings of the House.

      The guidelines that were distributed to members quite clearly spell out that a question must not repeat an earlier question which was answered or to which an answer was refused at that sitting.

      I believe the honourable member's second question was not repetitive of his first question, therefore the honourable member's question was in order.

* (1410)

Mr. Stefanson:  Once again, I believe I have to correct the honourable member's preamble in terms of performance indicators and where Manitoba stands today.

      Out of the 11 traditional performance indicators, Mr. Speaker, I want to quickly walk through them for the benefit of the honourable member for Osborne, that in the manufacturing sector performance, in employment, we are above Canada; in capital investment, we are above Canada; in business bankruptcies in terms of the positive side having the least in the nation, we are above Canada; in terms of economic growth, we are above Canada; in terms of unemployment rates, we are above Canada; in terms of housing starts, we are above Canada; in terms of retail sales, we are above Canada.

      Mr. Speaker, the record speaks for itself today in terms of the economic indicators where Manitoba is positioned.

 

Economic Growth

Full-Time Employment

       

Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):  Mr. Speaker, the Finance minister's predictions are not reality.  Reality is that we have lost the equivalent of 26,000 full‑time jobs in this province.

      I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Labour, a very simple question to the Minister of Labour.  How does he account for the fact that we have lost, under this government, the four years that this government has been in power, the equivalent of 26,000 full‑time jobs in this province?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour):  Mr. Speaker, I think if the member would wake up and look at the fact that we are going through a very difficult recession, as my colleagues in this House have answered the member on numerous occasions, and as the member knows, we are going through tremendous restructuring of our economy.

      I am sure the member would agree‑‑[interjection] Well, the member from his seat talks about last place.  The member still has not recognized, I think, what has happened in the agricultural community, what that has meant to income in our province.  He has not recognized changes.  We have seen a debate go on here today about the mining industry, 20 years of bad mining policy‑‑and now we are reaping the benefits of that in this province.

      Mr. Speaker, it takes time, as the member will acknowledge, to get the province onto the right course, and that is what is happening now.

 

Point of Order

 

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Minister of Labour continues to put false information on the record.

      Mr. Speaker, the legislation the province operates under was put in place by the Lyon government in 1978.

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member does not have a point of order.  It is a dispute over the facts.

 

Public Utilities

Lock-Off Statistics

 

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood):  My question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

      Mr. Speaker, on June 25, '91, on page 3841 of Hansard, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province said, and I quote:  ". . . I want the NDP to save $10 a month for every senior in this building by passing Bill 44."‑‑which was the gas disconnection bill.

      Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs claimed that 3,000 people would have their gas cut off this year.