LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, May 7, 1992

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and

WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and

WHEREAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider a one‑year moratorium on the program.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 40th Annual Report of the Manitoba Hydro‑Electric Board for the year ended March 31, 1991.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table for the House a report from the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy Evaluation, a report that they made public Tuesday at their semiannual meeting, Hospital Funding within the Health Care System: Moving Towards Effectiveness.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Agriculture for 1992‑1993.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Madame Judy Paradis, who is a delegate to the AIPLF Conference. She is a member of the House of Representatives from the State of Maine.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also with us this afternoon, we have from the Landmark School, forty‑two Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. Wendy Hildebrand. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).

Also this afternoon, we have 17 student visitors from the University of Winnipeg Enrichment Mini Course Program. They are under the direction of Mr. Harold Taylor, the former member for Wolseley.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Constitutional Issues

Legal Opinion Request

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, over six months ago, the all‑party task force of the Manitoba Legislature reported on the issues facing Manitobans in the Constitution. Since that time, there has been a federal report that has been produced in the country; there have been a number of other provincial reports; there have been four or five working committees established with officials from all governments in Canada; there have been delegations approved for aboriginal participation with the provincial delegations‑‑and we are quite a bit away in terms of times‑‑and there are quite a lot more issues on the table than what we first dealt with in the public hearings and the all‑party review that was completed over six months ago.

When the federal report was tabled in this Legislature, I pledged our party's commitment to an all‑party consensus approach, because I think most Manitobans believed that was one of our strengths when dealing with Meech Lake, and that was one of our strengths as a Legislature working together.

I asked the Premier at that time whether he was quoting from legal opinions that he had about some of the issues on division of powers that were facing our province, and I asked the Premier at the time to share the legal opinions with members of this Chamber.

The Premier stated on March 2: "I see no reason why I should not share the advice with the opposition leaders or whichever representatives we want to have to ensure that all parties' views are brought together on this issue."

I would ask the Premier: Why have we not received those legal opinions, those legal briefings and those other briefings to date? Should we not be all working from the same basic information when we have meetings with the Premier of Quebec or meetings with any other Premier or national figure on dealing with Canada's future and Manitoba's future in it?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his summary of events and also his commitment to continued co‑operation in working on the constitutional file. As he probably is aware, this is a matter that is continually moving. It is a matter in which different proposals are put on the table at different times, and we are really not in a position of having any final and fixed proposal to deal with.

Ministers are discussing matters; for instance, last week he talked about the formula of seven provinces‑85 percent proposal that I attributed to the province of Saskatchewan. He said to me that was not Premier Romanow's position. We now find in today's paper that is indeed being referred to as the Saskatchewan proposal, as we indicated in our discussion here in the Legislature, as the Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. McCrae) put forward.

Things are changing almost by the day. There is no final proposal that we can discuss, or no matters that are in a form for decision making. Until we arrive at that kind of position, we could talk amongst ourselves, but we would not be necessarily working toward a proposal that represents a position that Manitoba would take in the final round of negotiations that I anticipate eventually will come.

I have indicated to him that I am prepared to discuss with the leaders, prior to going to final meetings, about these kinds of positions. Indeed, I intend to do that.

All-Party Committee

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Again, in the last round we would meet and work together prior to positions being formulated, prior to positions being discussed on the table, so that, going in, we could all be working in the same direction in terms of Manitoba's vision and a co‑operative consensus approach.

Mr. Speaker, following Manitoba's lead in the 1990s, numbers of other legislatures have formed all‑party reports or committees. Right now, sitting in the province of New Brunswick, there is again a meeting of the various representatives of governments and the various leaders of the aboriginal nations in this country. At that meeting, Ontario has an all‑party delegation of elected officials working with the members of the public service. At that same meeting, Nova Scotia has picked up the all‑party model, and members from political parties are all represented, so the position of Nova Scotia will be reflected in an all‑party way.

I would ask the Premier: Why have we abandoned that all‑party approach to the deliberations going on, and would it not also be better for our province to continue on our tradition of an all‑party way that we led the country with and now other provinces are actually duplicating?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I remind the member that when we were dealing in the last round that he referred to, we were dealing with a specific proposal which was the Meech Lake Accord, which had a defined proposal on each individual issue, and we then came up with our response to that. We have the Manitoba position which has been defined by the all‑party task force, and that is the position that we take forward to the negotiations. Those are the issues that we are dealing with, and obviously when we come to a final issue, a final round, in which we are going to be putting forward, or expected to decide upon issues in a more final way, I have indicated that the consultations that I said would take place will take place before I go into those final meetings, but we are not at that point.

Mr. Doer: Again, and I say this in the greatest sense of unity in this Legislature, all opposition leaders have been invited to meet the Premier of Quebec; all premiers of western Canada will be meeting the Premier of Quebec. I think it is better for my discussions and my meeting with the Premier of Quebec to be 100 percent sure, not 99 percent sure, not 90 percent sure, that both myself and the Premier are speaking from the same voice with the same emphasis based on all the proposals that are at the table today, which are much beyond the Manitoba report.

I would ask again to the Premier: Can we have equal information and background information of what is going on? Can we be involved in some of the proposals that are being placed on the table by various delegations? Can we now, six months after the Manitoba task force report is out, pledge ourselves again to work in a co‑operative all‑party way so that Manitobans are served equally by all their elected representatives?

Mr. Filmon: That is precisely what this government has endeavoured to do. Each time the Minister for Constitutional Affairs, the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), has returned from one of these meetings he has given a full and complete report on the issues that were presented and discussed at those meetings. He has kept this Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues up to date on what the Manitoba position is and what is on the table.

This is the first that I have heard that the Leader of the Opposition does not know what the Manitoba position is or does not know what is on the table. All he has to do is read those ministerial statements that have been put forward for all parties, and he knows exactly what the position is.

St. Boniface Hospital

Bed Closures

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, for months we have been raising questions of this Minister of Health about the 250 beds rumoured to be cut at St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre. As recently as Monday evening in Estimates, or was it Tuesday morning, I asked the question again‑‑this question‑‑and he dismissed it as speculation and said any announcement would be part of an overall plan.

I want to ask the minister: Why, at the very time he was making that response to our questions, were meetings taking place at St. Boniface Hospital to provide information and explain a 150‑bed cut at the St. Boniface General Hospital?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, always during the Estimates process I try to provide my honourable friend with a response to her questions. We have spent almost 50 hours doing just that. I cannot account for discussions which are going on at board meetings across the length and breadth of Manitoba, not only at St. Boniface but many other hospitals.

For instance, Mr. Speaker, some year ago, at the Victoria General Hospital, the board was discussing the innovation of a new program in birthing for women for which I was at the formal initiation today. That discussion was going on for the improvement of health care and for improvement of service delivery, for instance, in child birthing at Victoria General Hospital. I would assume at board meetings all across the province discussions are ongoing about the challenge of meeting health care needs in the 1990s, and I welcome those kinds of discussions.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Would the minister at least tell Manitobans and patients in this city what he would not tell us after 50 hours of questioning in Estimates? What is the exact budgetary increase going to St. Boniface General Hospital? Why are they looking at cutting up to 150 beds in this year alone?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has posed that question. I have indicated to my honourable friend that in the budget process, we have indicated to all of the hospitals that in this year's budget, which has increased by $53 million over last year's budget, that I asked this Legislature to approve, all of the hospitals, and particularly the members of the Urban Hospital Council, are in the process of coming back to government with their operational plans for the next year or two years in terms of meeting the budget as presented within the $53‑million increase, the total of almost $950 million that Manitoba taxpayers are supplying to hospitals throughout Manitoba to deliver needed care.

Mr. Speaker, the plans are coming back, or are in the process of coming back, and will be analyzed and agreed to or disagreed to and further negotiated as the normal budgeting process takes place.

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Health Care Facilities

Bed Closures

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, that is the Minister of Health, and the buck stops there.

Will this minister do the responsible thing and tell all Manitobans his long‑term health care plan for this province and the impact of these kinds of bed‑cut decisions on patients?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, again, I remind my honourable friend that she is almost approaching an Ontario bed‑cut situation with glee.

There are no decisions being made around bed cuts. Discussions are ongoing around budget management in all of our hospitals throughout the length and breadth of Manitoba.

My honourable friend says the buck stops here. Yes, 53 million more of those bucks stop here and then go to the hospitals this year over last year. That is in sharp contrast to the slavish adherence my honourable friend has to budget cuts in Saskatchewan, where they received $50 million less this year than last year and some $70 million more across the entire hospital system of Ontario serving nine times the population.

I will put our record of funding, Mr. Speaker, as I have for 50 hours, in front of any Legislature and defend it as the best in Canada.

Constitutional Issues

Senate Reform

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we are always very concerned about the rules of order in this Chamber, but I would ask you, Sir, to investigate the decorum of certain members of this Chamber outside of the Chamber.

I mean, last night I have to tell you when the Premier literally pounced on top of me, albeit on stage, it caused almost heart failure in the Leader of the Liberal Party. It was done in great fun and in a spirit of co‑operation. It is in that spirit of co‑operation that I hope the Premier is meeting this afternoon, taking the message of the task force report of Manitoba's Legislature to the Premier of the province of Quebec.

Mr. Speaker, we are particularly interested in some of the discussions that have taken place in the western provinces, particularly in Alberta, where the Premier of Alberta seems to have given the impression, if not the fact, that for him he was willing to accept an equal Senate and perhaps a less‑effective Senate.

Can the Premier of the province of Manitoba tell this Chamber today what I think Manitobans want to hear, that an effective Senate is as important to them as an equal Senate?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I had not briefed my caucus on last night's events. I was hopeful that it could have been our own little secret. I will say that some have suggested that that might be the greatest example of real acting that anybody has ever seen.

I take seriously the question that the Leader of the Liberal Party has placed. Yes, this government does want to see a Triple‑E Senate that not only is elected, but equal and effective. That is one of the considerations that very strongly is on the table and is very important to Manitoba in the whole constitutional process. Where we get into the debate on effectiveness, of course, is on the ability of an elected equal Senate to hamstring a parliament that is also duly elected and representative of the people and country.

That is an area in which I might say that we have viewed many, many models, and even in my own discussions with Premier Getty, Premier Wells, and Premier Romanow‑‑proponents of a Triple‑E Senate‑‑there is going to have to be a great deal more work done whether or not we have a tie‑breaking mechanism, whether or not we have a method by which the sanctity of parliament's ultimate right to make decisions on behalf of the people remains and how it remains.

So that is the only area in which I can say that I see some flexibility, but it has to be effective and effective enough to be able to go and stop parliament from doing something that might clearly be against the best interests of a particular region of this country. With that very small caveat, there is no question that we want a Triple‑E Senate that is effective.

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Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the Premier of Quebec said yesterday‑‑if he has been quoted accurately in the media‑‑that his province will not return to the negotiating table until there is an agreement on Senate reform.

My question to the Premier is: Does he accept that stipulation, and if not, will he tell Mr. Bourassa in their meeting today that there is no question of even talking about anything but the full‑fledged Triple‑E model until Quebec is at the table and ready to negotiate seriously?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, my objective is to try and convince the Premier of Quebec that he ought to be at the table, that no final determinations of constitutional reform are going to be made in this country without Quebec at the table. Ultimately, there will have to be a time and a place that Quebec feels it is appropriate to come back to the table. I would hope that I could do everything within my power to encourage that to be sooner rather than later.

Rather than give him threats or ultimatums, I would rather try and persuade him that it is in his interest, as well as the interests of the people of Quebec, as well as Canada's interest, that all of the players be at the table when final decisions are made that are obviously going to affect all of us and result hopefully in a package that is acceptable to people right across the country.

Provincial Referendum

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, according to all the reports, the current talks have returned to the core elements of the Meech Lake accord. Clearly, there are some differences, but it is still unclear exactly whether those differences are just sugar‑coating or whether they actually address the fundamental flaws of the Meech Lake accord.

My question is this: The biggest flaw of the Meech Lake debacle was the callous and cynical exclusion of the people. Now, certainly, in this province we have a mechanism to reach out to some of the people but certainly not all of the people. Will the Premier tell this House today why his government will not say yes to all of the people by allowing for a provincial referendum on the Constitution?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, I suppose it is because of exactly the same reasons why the all‑party task force on the Constitution did not accept the referendum as being the best answer for Manitobans to express themselves and to be well represented at the constitutional table. I say with respect that the all‑party task force did consider the referendum as one of its options and did give a number of very serious reservations in its report and felt that ultimately this province has been the most open, the most democratic in seeking public opinion as the basis of its position and will ultimately have the people of this province be able to give their final comments on the matter when a proposal is struck that is available to be presented to the Legislature.

This Legislature will have to have its full and complete debate and will have to have full and open public hearings. That will provide for a very strong input by the public and ability to have the Manitoba population have their say before any final determination is made.

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Brandon General Hospital

Government Funding

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Health.

In the past year, the Brandon General Hospital has had a shortfall of funding of $1.3 million and had to lay off nearly 30 licensed practical nurses and has had to shut down the gynecology ward and scale back on the palliative care services. Now there are reports that the hospital is looking at another potential shortfall of a second $1.3 million in the current year.

Can the Minister of Health confirm that his department has advised the Brandon General Hospital that there will be no increase in the level of government funding this year and resulting in a potential shortfall?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm my honourable friend's allegations.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I am asking these questions on behalf of the people of Westman, who are very concerned and apprehensive about what is happening.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: How many more layoffs and bed closures does the minister expect to result at the Brandon General Hospital this year because of the proposed level of funding this year that, I understand, has been indicated by his department to that hospital?

Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend refers to the reorganization within the Brandon General Hospital that was announced, I think, maybe in January of this year. My honourable friend talks about bed closures, et cetera. Yes, there were some bed closures through consolidation of three wards: one occupied at approximately 51 percent; a second ward occupied at approximately 67 percent; and a third ward at 68 percent.

Mr. Speaker, the management of the hospital and the administration of the hospital and the board of the hospital believed that they could provide‑‑and they are right‑‑equivalent services in two wards so that rather than staffing three partially utilized wards, they staffed two more appropriately utilized wards. In the process of doing that, they have saved significant budget to the taxpayers without compromising patient care. They are able to do that because, since we have come into government, we have more than doubled the home care budget in the city of Brandon to allow more services to move from the hospital to the community in the very reasoned and informed approach to changing the health care system that everybody advocates but few are able to accomplish, Sir.

Service Reduction

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, well, I ask again on behalf of the people of Westman, who are very concerned and apprehensive about this matter: Just to what extent will the hospital have to scale back on service this year, given the fact that the word is out that there will be absolutely no increase in the level of funding for the Brandon General Hospital?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has terminal deafness when he hears answers that he does not agree with. My honourable friend just made an accusation of the Brandon General Hospital that they are going to be curtailing service deliveries and cutting back on services. The adjustments that were made in February or January of this year allow the Brandon General Hospital to maintain its service level.

Mr. Speaker, when my honourable friend, as an elected representative, stands up and makes the accusation that Brandon General Hospital, because of what decisions they made in February and January of this year, are going to cut back on services, is not telling the truth. He has an obligation to tell the truth, because the Brandon General Hospital Board said‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I very clearly heard the Minister of Health say that the member for Brandon East was not telling the truth. There was no doubt about the intention of the statement made by the minister. He was making an accusation on behalf of the member for Brandon East that there was some deliberate intent.

I would ask Mr. Speaker to review the comments which I believe are unparliamentary and also uncalled for, because the member has consistently raised concerns on behalf of the people of Brandon and should not be subject to this kind of abuse‑‑

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. The honourable Minister of Health, to finish his response.

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Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend does a disservice to the members of the Brandon General Hospital Board who, in a statement in February, said there will be no curtailment of services because they will consolidate the services of three wards into two, with outpatient surgery, with increased home care. The level of service delivery in the hospital will remain the same, not reduced, as alleged and fearmongered by my honourable friend around the February announcement.

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Northern Health Care

Transportation Fee

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I received today a copy of the 1990‑91 annual statistics from the Manitoba Health Services Commission. The statistics are quite startling.

In Winnipeg, the average person receives approximately 14 medical services annually provided by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. In northern Manitoba