Hon. Jon Gerrard, MLA for River Heights

Mr. Leonard Derkach, MLA for Russell

Ms. Marjorie Prince, Private Citizen

Ms. Diana Traverse, Private Citizen

Mr. Edward Pashe, Private Citizen

Ms. Sheila James, Private Citizen

Ms. Lorraine Elk, Private Citizen

Mr. David G. Newman, Private Citizen

MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION:

Bill 43–The Polar Bear Protection Act

Mr. Chairperson: Good evening. Will the Standing Committee on Law Amendments please come to order?

This evening, the committee will be considering the following bills: Bill 19, The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act; Bill 22, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Francophone School Division Governance Structure); Bill 32, The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act; Bill 33, The Private Vocational Institutions Act; Bill 43, The Polar Bear Protection Act; and Bill 44, The Provincial Police Amendment (Aboriginal Policing) Act.

We have presenters registered to speak to four of these bills as follows: Bill 19, Michael Anderson, Grand Chief Francis Flett and Ed Huebert; Bill 22, Claude Lemoine and Maurice Auger; Bill 33, Ken Penner; Bill 44, Marjorie Prince, Edward Pashe, David G. Newman, Diana Traverse, Sheila James, Lorraine Elk.

Is it the will of the committee to hear public presentations prior to consideration of the bills? [Agreed]

Before determining the order of the presentations, I would like to advise the committee that there are two registered presenters for Bill 22 who have asked to have their presentation made en français this evening.

If there are any other persons in attendance who wish to present in French, could you please make yourselves known to the attendant at the back of the room if you have not already done so?

We also have a number of out-of-town presenters in attendance this evening. As indicated by an asterisk on the speaking list, the out-of-town presenters are Claude Lemoine, Marjorie Prince, Edward Pashe, Diana Traverse, Sheila James, Lorraine Elk.

Considering this information, how does the committee wish to proceed in hearing presentations?

Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Chairperson, consistent with past practices, may I move that we hear representatives for 15 minutes and an additional 5 minutes for questions?

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Santos, we will consider time allocation in a second. I am trying to determine now if we wish to hear out-of-town presenters first and if we wish to hear the presenters in French at the–[interjection] Mr. Santos has moved that we hear the presenters in French first and then the other out-of-town presenters. All those in favour–[Agreed] [interjection] We will say it is the will of the committee. We did not really need a motion there.

So we have agreed that we will hear the presentations en français first, followed by the other out-of-town presenters, then the remaining presenters.

How does the committee propose to deal with presenters who are not in attendance today but have their names called? Shall these names be dropped to the bottom of the list? [Agreed] Shall the names be dropped from the list entirely after being called twice? [Agreed]

As a reminder to presenters, 20 copies of any written version of your presentations are required for the committee. If you need assistance with photocopying, please see the attendant at the back of the room. If there is anyone in the audience tonight who has not yet registered but would like to make a presentation to one of these bills, you may register with the attendant at the back of the room.

Is it the will of the committee to set time limits on presentations?

Mr. Santos: Monsieur le président, consistent with past practices in this committee, I move that we hear the presenter 15 minutes and an additional 5 minutes for questions from members of the committee.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. It does not have to be a motion, but if it is a motion it has to be in writing. Is it the will of the committee to follow these recommendations? [Agreed] Presenters will have 15 minutes maximum to make their presentation and 5 minutes to answer questions, if they so desire, from members of this committee.

How late does the committee wish to sit this evening?

Mr. Santos: I suggest again, Mr. Chair, that we stay as long as there is business to be done. When it is done, the committee rise.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been suggested that we stay until all the presenters have presented and all the bills have been passed clause by clause. Is that agreed? [Agreed]

* (18:40)

Mr. Chairperson: We will now proceed with the presentations beginning with Bill 22, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Francophone School Division Governance Structure); Loi modifiant la Loi sur les écoles publiques (structure de gestion de la division scolaire de langue française). M. Claude Lemoine, representing DSFM n^o 49, please take the podium.

Just before you begin, I would like to remind committee members that we have simultaneous translation. The devices are on the table in front of you.

Perhaps you could introduce both of the people at the podium and let us know who is speaking for the purposes of recording in Hansard.

Mr. Claude Lemoine (Division scolaire franco-manitobaine n^o 49): Bonsoir, chers membres du comité législatif. Je m'appelle Claude Lemoine.

Members of the legislative committee, good evening. My name is Claude Lemoine.

Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. I need to know if you are presenting together and if you are both representing the DSFM.

Mr. Lemoine: Just myself, moi-même. Seulement moi.

Myself. Just me.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, please proceed.

Mr. Lemoine: Alors, bonsoir encore. Je m'appelle Claude Lemoine. Je suis le vice-président de la Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine. Je suis accompagné aujourd'hui de M. Léo Robert, directeur général de la Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, ainsi que plusieurs autres membres de la Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine.

Est-ce que vous voulez les copies de la présentation? Nous avons seulement 14 copies.

Once again, good evening. My name is Claude Lemoine. I am the vice-president of the Franco-Manitoban school board. I am accompanied by Mr. Léo Robert, the superintendent of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, as well as several other members of the Franco-Manitoban school board.

Mr. Chairperson: We will make more.

Mr. Lemoine: Okay. Merci.

Alors c'est en octobre 1998 que la Division scolaire franco-manitobaine affirmait la nécessité de revoir sa structure de gouverne et recommandait au ministre de l'Éducation (M. Caldwell), de la Formation professionnelle et de la Jeunesse la mise sur pied d'un processus de révision de la structure politique et du processus électoral au sein de la division scolaire.

Mandaté par le ministre, M. Norbert Cenerini déposait en mai 2001 son Rapport de la revue indépendante de la structure politique et du processus électoral de la Division scolaire franco-manitobaine. Ce rapport présente une série de 11 recommandations visant à corriger certaines lacunes de la structure et du processus politiques de la DSFM et propose notamment des changements importants dans la nature du palier régional.

Le ministre nous a ensuite demandé de lui indiquer la réponse des élus au rapport Cenerini. La CSFM a établi un processus par lequel les commissaires, les représentants régionaux et les présidents des comités scolaires ont étudié à fond ce rapport lors de deux rencontres consacrées à cette fin, tenues les 13 et 14 octobre 2001 et le 30 novembre, 1^er et 2 décembre 2001. De plus, un groupe de travail formé de huit personnes parmi ceux-ci s'est rencontré les 9, 10 et 11 novembre 2001 afin d'approfondir la réflexion.

Les participants aux rencontres, chefs de file de la DSFM, proposent des améliorations au système actuel, basées sur l'expérience acquise et sur les nombreux apprentissages qui ont émergé au sein de la communauté et au sein de la DSFM depuis sa fondation. Les recommandations suivantes sont issues d'un large consensus parmi les élus et les présidences des comités scolaires de la DSFM durant les rencontres. Elles sont le fruit d'une réflexion approfondie s'inscrivant dans un processus qui s'est penchée sur plusieurs modèles possibles de gouverne pour le système scolaire franco-manitobain.

C'est donc riche d'une expérience de huit années de gestion du système scolaire franco-manitobain et fort d'une tradition hautement démocratique que la Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine se présente devant vous aujourd'hui pour partager ses réactions et recommander certaines modifications au Projet de loi 22.

Premièrement, le paragraphe 21.9(1) du projet de loi prévoit l'abolition des comités régionaux tels qu'ils existent présentement. Le paragraphe 21.9(1) tel que proposé se lit comme suit: "La commission scolaire de langue française peut constituer un groupe consultatif pour chaque région de la division scolaire de langue française."

La Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine recommande le maintien du palier régional de nature politique comportant des représentants élus à ce palier. Chaque comité régional serait composé d'un représentant élu par école de la région. La réalité franco-manitobaine, ainsi que la dispersion géographique de notre clientèle, requiert trois niveaux de gestion: local, régional et provincial. Il faut assurer un équilibre judicieux entre les préoccupations d'ordre régional et le bien commun du système francophone provincial, tel que préconisé dans le rapport Gallant.

L'existence des régions au sein de la DSFM est née d'un compromis entre la nécessité de répondre aux aspirations variables de chacune des régions et de chaque école à l'intérieur d'une région et la volonté politique d'agir en commun pour donner vie aux droits découlant de l'article 23. Il ne s'agissait pas d'une nécessité administrative. Certaines questions d'ordre régional sont de nature éminemment politique et demandent qu'un corps élu régional puisse s'y intéresser, chercher l'atteinte de consensus et formuler des recommandations avant que la CSFM en arrive à une décision finale.

Le maintien du palier régional élu permet une flexibilité importante au niveau de la délégation potentielle de pouvoirs. De plus, le palier régional permet de maintenir un lien beaucoup plus direct et efficace entre chaque communauté scolaire et la commission scolaire.

Le paragraphe 21.9(1) du Projet de loi 22 indique aussi que la commission scolaire de langue française peut constituer. Ainsi construit, le paragraphe permet l'établissement d'un groupe consultatif mais ne l'oblige pas. La commission scolaire recommande que le paragraphe soit modifié dans le but de créer une obligation de créer ces groupes consultatifs. La commission scolaire recommande donc d'enlever le verbe "peut" et le remplacer par le verbe "doit". Ce changement assurerait une permanence aux groupes consultatifs et assurerait aux parents un équilibre judicieux entre les préoccupations d'ordre régional et le bien commun de tout le système francophone provincial, tout en permettant un lien beaucoup plus direct et efficace entre les communautés scolaires et la commission scolaire.

Deuxièmement, le projet de loi prévoit l'élection des commissaires directement par l'électorat. La Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine se réjouit de cette décision et en recommande l'adoption. L'élection des commissaires par suffrage direct des parents est un principe auquel souscrivent d'emblée l'ensemble des élus. Les commissaires étant imputables aux parents électeurs de la région, les problèmes de reddition des comptes prévus au moment de la création de la DSFM dans le rapport Gallant ne se posent plus, puisqu'on élimine la séparation d'un palier qui existe entre l'électorat et les commissaires.

Je tiens à souligner que plusieurs modèles de gouverne ont été analysés. Les élus soulignent que le choix d'un modèle résulte nécessairement de compromis entre les divers objectifs poursuivis. Tout comme l'a fait le Rapport Gallant en 1993, les élus ont eu à determiner parmi les limites inhérentes à chacun des modèles étudiés, lesquelles constituent des compromis acceptables en fonction de principes fondamentaux établis depuis les débuts de notre système scolaire.

En troisième lieu, la Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine tient à souligner son désaccord avec le paragraphe 21.37(3): Autres électeurs, du Projet de loi 22. Le paragraphe précédent, le paragraphe 21.37(2), définit clairement dans la loi les critères à rencontrer pour être habilité à voter dans l'élection des commissaires de la division scolaire de langue française. Par contre, le paragraphe 21.37(3) indique que "autres catégories d'ayants droit" peuvent être habilitées à voter simplement en modifiant les règlements. La Commission scolaire franco-manitobaine est d'avis que toutes les catégories d'ayants droit doivent être clairement identifiées et décrites dans la loi scolaire, et non pas laissées à une modification d'un simple règlement.

Nous voulons rappeler au gouvernement que la gestion scolaire par les parents francophones est tout de même un droit constitutionnel et mérite d'être protégée par la loi scolaire du Manitoba. Nous vous recommandons fortement d'éliminer le paragraphe 21.37(3) du projet de loi, puisque le paragraphe 21.37(2) définit clairement les qualités requises des électeurs.

* (18:50)

Finalement, la commission scolaire veut souligner sa grande déception face au constat que le Projet de loi 22 ne change rien dans la situation actuelle où rien n'empêche une division scolaire cédante d'établir ou d'offrir un programme français tel que défini dans la Loi sur les écoles publiques. Ainsi, les divisions scolaires cédantes qui sont responsables de l'éducation des élèves du groupe majoritaire viennent en somme s'interposer dans le droit de gestion de l'enseignement destiné à la communauté minoritaire. Même si cette approche a pu être une solution politique à court terme dans certaines régions, il n'en reste pas moins qu'elle ne saurait être une solution viable à long terme. Il appartient à la communauté francophone de gérer l'enseignement offert à ses enfants.

Dans le Renvoi manitobain portant sur la Loi sur les écoles publiques de 1993, la Cour suprême du Canada s'exprime de cette façon, et je cite: Il faut éviter toutes dispositions et structures qui portent atteinte, font obstacle ou ne répondent tout simplement pas aux besoins de la minorité; il faudrait examiner et mettre en œuvre des mesures qui favorisent la création et l'utilisation d'établissements d'enseignement pour la minorité linguistique. Par exemple, si la province décide d'offrir aux parents du groupe linguistique minoritaire un choix d'écoles où sera dispensée l'instruction dans la langue de la minorité, elle ne doit pas la faire aux dépens de services offerts par un conseil scolaire de langue française, ni empêcher ce conseil d'offrir des services reposant sur le principe d'égalité que je viens de décrire. De même, il ne serait pas loisible au gouvernement du Manitoba de délimiter les districts scolaires de façon à empêcher indûment un tel conseil d'attirer des élèves.

D'après nous, il est donc claire que la loi actuelle qui donne les outils nécessaires aux divisions scolaires anglophones pour s'ingérer dans l'enseignement destiné aux enfants de la minorité linguistique et culturelle ne respecte pas l'article 23 de la Charte canadienne des droits et libertés. Nous recommandons fortement au gouvernement du Manitoba de modifier sa loi scolaire afin de la rendre conforme à l'article 23 de la Charte canadienne des droits et libertés, ainsi qu'à toute la jurisprudence entourant cet article.

Je suis confiant que vous allez sérieusement considérer ces recommandations et je vous remercie de votre attention.

It was in October 1998 that the DSFM confirmed the necessity of reviewing its governance structure and recommended to the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr. Caldwell) the establishment of a process to review the political structure and electoral process within the school division.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Je voudrais vous remercier pour votre présentation. Une des questions que les gens me posent, c'est la question des représentants pour les petites écoles comme Saint-Lazare et Saint-Laurent. Je voudrais vous demander si dans les modifications qu'on voit dans cette loi, est-ce qu'il y a une représentation de façon satisfaisante pour Saint-Lazare et Saint-Laurent, par exemple.

I would like to thank you for your presentation. One of the questions people ask me is that of representatives for the small schools, such as those of Saint-Lazare and Saint-Laurent. I would like to ask you whether, in the amendments that we see in this act, there is satisfactory representation for Saint-Lazare and Saint-Laurent, for example.

Mr. Lemoine: L'inquiétude que nous avons avec le projet de loi tel que présenté, nous aimerions voir la loi un peu plus forte en s'assurant qu'il y a un représentant régional par école, qui assurerait que chacune de ces petites écoles aurait une représentation. Dans le présent projet de loi, quant à nous, la terminologie n'est pas assez forte. On dit qu'on peut. Nous autres, on demande qu'on doit avoir des comités régionaux, ainsi que, avec ça, des représentants régionaux pour chacune des écoles, ce qui va assurer une représentation pour chacune de nos écoles, les petites écoles.

Est-ce que je peux permettre à M. Robert aussi de répondre?

The concern we have with the bill as presented is that we would like to see the law strengthened a little by ensuring that there is one regional representative per school, which would ensure that each of these small schools would be represented. In the current bill, in our opinion, the terminology is not strong enough. It says "may." We are asking for obligatory regional committees and, with that, regional representatives for each school, which will ensure representation for each of our schools, the small schools.

Mr. Chairperson: We need leave of the committee to have the second person speak. Is there leave? [Agreed] And we need your name before you speak.

Mr. Léo Robert (Directeur Général, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine n^o 49): Léo Robert. Je pense aussi au point de vue des petites communautés, si les élections sont par les parents directement de certains commissaires dans les petites communautés, il est très peu possible ou probable que ces petites communautés-là puissent élire un commissaire à la commission scolaire à cause du nombre d'individus qui voteraient dans cette communauté-là.

Alors en maintenant les comités régionaux, on s'assure d'avoir une représentation élue pour ces petites communautés-là aussi bien que les grandes communautés qui ont plus de chances d'avoir des commissaires.

Léo Robert. I think also from the point of view of small communities, if parents directly elect certain trustees in the small communities, there is very little possibility or probability that these small communities can elect a trustee to the school board because of the number of people who would vote in that community.

Mr. Chairperson: I am sorry. The translator is having difficulty. I wonder if you could repeat your answer a little more slowly please, a lot more slowly. Thank you.

Mr. Robert: C'est un de mes défauts. J'ai tendance à parler trop vite.

Dans la structure actuelle avec l'élection directe des commissaires, les grandes communautés ont plus de chances d'avoir un commissaire qui les représente à la commission scolaire. Les petites communautés comme Saint-Laurent, Saint-Lazare, Laurier, Saint-Léon, ont beaucoup moins de chances à cause du nombre d'électeurs qu'il y aurait dans ces communautés-là, d'élire un commissaire qui les représenterait à la commission scolaire. C'est un des raisons pourquoi la Commission scolaire recommande de maintenir les comités régionaux pour assurer une représentation élue de ces petites communautés-là aussi bien que les grandes.

It is one of my faults. I tend to talk too quickly.

Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Merci. Un commentaire. Claude, Léo, merci pour votre présentation.

C'est un plaisir de travailler avec la Division scolaire franco-manitobaine dans le développement des écoles francophones du Manitoba. Vos avis ici nous sont très importants et la considération du comité–

Thank you. A comment. Claude, Léo, thank you for your presentation.

–will be managed carefully and reflectively. Merci beaucoup.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Lemoine: Merci.

Mr. Robert: Merci.

Mr. Chairperson: The next presenter is Mr. Maurice Auger, representing the Comité régional urbain. Not here. Okay, we will go to the next out of town–well, sorry. His name has been called once. We will call his name a second time later.

Mr. Chairperson: We are going to proceed to the other out-of-town presenters. The first name is Marjorie Prince, private citizen. Please come to the podium.

Ms. Marjorie Prince (Private Citizen): My name is Marjorie Prince.

Mr. Chairperson: Do you have written copies of your presentation?

Ms. Prince: My name is Marjorie Prince. I am the interim chief for Dakota Tipi First Nation. I was elected on December 3, 2002, to bring section 74 to Dakota Tipi. I am here today to talk about the policing services in our community.

Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. We are having difficulty hearing you. I wonder if you could just point your mike down a little bit or move it closer. Thank you.

Ms. Prince: I am here to talk about the policing problems we are having in our community. The previous chief and council had signed an agreement with the Dakota Ojibway Police Service without consent of the band members. This agreement was signed without having a duly convened meeting with the band members and there was no meeting to discuss whether or not the band members wanted to have the Dakota Ojibway Police Service in our community. Because of the numerous problems we have been having, and I had stated in August before an agreement was signed–I have a letter to follow it up–asking that we attend the meeting, and there was never a meeting held. We did not agree with Mr. Pashe's decision, the previous chief, and we wanted to have a say in that meeting.

* (19:00)

I would like to read a letter from a band member. He is a traditional healer. He asked me to read a letter on his behalf. This letter is to LERA.

He states: I am writing your agency to complain about the conduct of the Dakota Ojibway Police Service and several of its members and their actions that lead up to my arrest and detention on January 9, 2002, something that I believe was politically motivated and enacted upon by this policing agency with their full knowledge and understanding.

On January 9, 2002, at approximately 11:30 a.m., members of the Dakota Ojibway Police Service arrived at my place of residence on the Dakota Tipi First Nation. When I went outside to speak with them, I noticed one of them coming out of my garage. They approached me and said that they wanted to take me to their office for questioning. This is the same thing that they told my wife when she asked where they were taking me. They then took me to the Portage la Prairie RCMP detachment, where they placed me under arrest for the shootings that took place on Dakota Tipi First Nation on January 1, 2002.

I was charged with possession of a weapon, careless use of a firearm and mischief under $5,000. I was then allowed to contact a Legal Aid lawyer who advised me not to say anything once she heard what I was charged with. She then asked to speak with the arresting officer. The officer then told her that they were only going to question me, then release me. When I spoke with her again, she told me that they were going to release me once they had questioned me. She also stated that, since they were going to release me, her presence was not needed. I was then lodged in the RCMP cells for approximately 4.5 hours. They then took me before a magistrate to have me remanded into custody. I was not afforded another chance to talk to the Legal Aid lawyer, which I could not do anyway, because it was after business hours.

Once they had me before a magistrate, they told me that they opposed my release. They also told him that they had reason to believe that I would burn down several houses and there would be more shootings if released. The magistrate said that he would remand me into custody and also opposed my release the following morning, based on their testimony.

I was then lodged overnight in the cells at the Portage RCMP detachment. During my stay there, I was given a rotten sandwich for dinner. When I told the officer that the meat in it was actually green, he got mad and said that, if I did not eat it, I would not be fed anything else. I was also denied a blanket and forced to sleep in a cell that they kept turning the air conditioning on and off every hour until the morning.

After several hours of calling the local DOPS detachment, my wife was finally able to speak to one of the officers and find out what was happening to me. They told her that they had to speak with the Crown prosecutor, who said, based on the two statements from Gary Pashé and Kevin Pashé, that they had enough evidence to pick me up and charge me with the shootings. What they did not tell her was that the Crown had also instructed them to release me after questioning me.

In the morning, I was shackled hand and foot and taken to the courthouse. I was also led into the courtroom this way. Once my name was called, I was led into the courtroom and the charges against me were read. The Crown said he would not oppose my release providing I abide by a number of conditions. One of the conditions was that I not be able to return to Dakota Tipi First Nation.

A plea was never entered on these charges. The Crown later stated that he was very surprised to see me in custody. He also said that he had received a call from the chief of Dakota Tipi the morning of the court, demanding that I be held in custody and that he did not want me back on the reserve. The four people that were with me when the shots were fired went to the Crown and asked if they could give their statements to the RCMP because they did not trust DOPS to act on them. The RCMP agreed to take the statements at the request of the Crown.

On February 3, 2002, the Crown entered a Stay of Proceedings and all three of the charges against me. In an interview given later in the day, the Crown said that the charges are dropped because of some major credibility issues with DOPS witnesses. She further stated that her office had instructed DOPS to release me after arresting me. However, they chose not to comply.

A spokesperson for DOPS. said that he had asked the arresting officer why I was held so long. The officer said that it took some time to complete the paperwork, which was a pretty lame excuse. If they had any intention of releasing me that day, a promise to appear, or a recognizance would have been sufficient. According to the arresting officer, they had already spoken with the Crown a previous day and had plenty of time to prepare the paperwork prior to arresting me the following day. In total, they had me in their custody for probably six and a half hours before taking me before a magistrate.

A good officer, even better, a detachment commander, would have never let such a weak case out of the office, much less send it to court without further investigation. Do these officers not take any pride in their work? The only reason that the Crown was forced to act on it was because of the seriousness of the charges. The Crown was already familiar with the character of the two witnesses and stated that he was not very happy with the DOPS officers. I believe these officers knew exactly what they were doing and were reacting to the pressure from the reserve to charge someone. I also believe I was targeted because of my stand against the current chief and council.

There had been a number of incidents where DOPS has failed to follow up on complaints. The most serious of them is the burning of the recreation building. Several key witnesses have never been interviewed. Our people believe it is because the two people responsible for setting the fire are supporters of the chief. The first one is a band constable and the other being one of the two councillors for the reserve. As a result of the inaction of DOPS, the witnesses have taken it upon themselves to contact the Office of the Fire Commissioner who agreed to travel to the city of Portage la Prairie to take their statements.

DOPS have only been policing the Dakota Tipi First Nation for a period of six months and have already accumulated a number of complaints against them. The majority of the band membership believe that the only reason why the chief and council brought them into the reserve is because of their history of giving into the pressure of the chief and council that control them. Although they do not have a puppet police commission in place, they do have a puppet police commission in place. Ultimately, it is the chiefs that sit on the board of directors for the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council that decide its fate and that of its officers.

The decision to replace the RCMP with DOPS was never brought before the membership of the reserve and was something that the chief decided on his own. This happened after the RCMP charged him with numerous counts of spousal abuse. They also accused him of playing politics like he did in an interview after he was informed that the charges against me were dropped. He also accused the Crown of playing politics.

As a result of being charged, not being able to return to my home for approximately four weeks, both my family and I have suffered physically, emotionally and mentally. I cannot begin to even imagine what effect this event has had on my son and daughter, to see their father being taken away in the back of a police car and charged with a crime he did not commit, then having to watch him being led into the courtroom in shackles like some kind of animal. My wife is the one who has suffered the most. She is the one who had to shoulder most of the burden while I am forced to live off the reserve. My reputation as a traditional healer and spiritual leader has suffered as a result of those trumped-up charges.

Within hours of my being charged, people as far away as the west coast knew of my arrest, and within days it spread into the United States. Word travels fast on the Internet. I make my living as a traditional healer because I could not return to my residence where I practice the various ceremonies for the people. I could not make a living and I have suffered financially. People from Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario travel to my home for healing. I generally travel to Alberta, B.C. and the United States, if needed, because of the distance.

* (19:10)

I believe, because of the chief and council playing dirty politics, I was targeted to take the fall for the shootings. I also believe that DOPS was fully aware of the situation and acted on the false accusations knowingly. DOPS never had any intention of releasing me despite instructions from the Crown. If they did, they could have released me on a promise to appear, or on a recognizance, instead of taking me before a magistrate during the dinner hour when I did not have access to a lawyer; and two, they lied to the Legal Aid lawyer that I initially contacted; and three, they lied to the magistrate in order to have me remanded in custody.

They did not have enough evidence to make a real case in the first place. A firearm was never produced; there was never any proof that I owned or had access to one. All they had were the statements of two very troubled individuals that would tell anything for the right price; that because of the political situation on the Dakota Tipi First Nation, they are catering to the current chief and council in order to protect their funding; that despite knowing that the current chief has several outstanding warrants for his arrest, they will not act on them.

I would also like to know why, and how, they have managed to get hold of my criminal record. I applied for, and received, a pardon for the past convictions in 1992.

I do not believe they had the right to enter my garage without permission. I had different people search the garage and my yard, fearing they might have planted the evidence needed to make the case. One of their witnesses did produce a shell casing that he said he took from me. What happened to that? Will the two witnesses be charged for the false statements made against me?

Despite knowing that the band constable is one of the main suspects in the case where someone set the fire to the recreation building, he is still allowed to access their office and vehicles.

Although all of the charges against me have been dropped, DOPS officers are still trying to pin the shootings on me. They have now resorted to harassing my friends.

The people of Dakota Tipi have suffered under the leadership of a chief that used intimidation and violence to enforce his will against the people for more than 20 years. Then, they were subjected to the brutality of the Manitoba Warriors for four more years. Now, they are being further victimized by the same chief's personal police force, the Ojibway Police Service.

A band member said that he had seen several members of DOPS acting as the chief's personal security body guards at a recent Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs' meeting held in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in late January 2002. However, we have not had the time to confirm this as of yet. I have spoken out against the current chief and council–

Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me, Ms. Prince. I apologize for interrupting you, but you may not have been in the room when this committee agreed to time limits of 15 minutes for presentation and 5 minutes–

Ms. Prince: I am just about on the last paragraph.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, so we will just ask you to wind it up. Thank you.

Ms. Prince: I have spoken out against the current chief and council of the Dakota Tipi First Nation. I have encouraged the people of Dakota Tipi to put their complaints and concerns about the Ojibway Police Service in writing and to send them to the Justice Minister of Manitoba. Now I find myself being unfairly targeted in order to silence my opposition of the chief and council of Dakota Tipi and its personal police force.

All of the events leading up to my arrest and release are true to the best of my knowledge.

Sincerely, Keith Pashe, traditional healer for Dakota Tipi First Nation. Thank you.

I will turn the mike over to Diana Traverse.

Mr. Chairperson: Yes, can we get your name before you speak?

Ms. Diana Traverse (Private Citizen): My name is Diana Traverse. Good evening.

Mr. Chairperson: We are going to give you 15 minutes with a little bit of latitude for the two of you, so we have got less than 2 minutes left. Okay? We have also got two people that want to ask questions.

Floor Comment: She is on the list.

Floor Comment: It is separate.

Mr. Chairperson: If your name is on the list, you get 15 minutes entirely to yourself.

Ms. Traverse: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: But there may be questions of Marjorie Prince. I know that Mr. Gerrard had his hand up. Does Ms. Prince want to answer questions?

Ms. Prince: Yes.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Mr. Gerrard has a question.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Your presentation was a very moving one and very disturbing one. The bill that we are looking at would provide for the establishment of Aboriginal policing services. Clearly, you have raised some major concerns with the Aboriginal policing service as it exists in the Dakota Ojibway policing service. Do you think that this bill should not be proceeded with, or should it be changed in a major way so that the policing service can be more fair and just and effective?

Ms. Prince: I believe that the bill should be passed through all Dakota Tipi band members' involvement. It should be done through meetings and by vote by the band members. It should have a whole involvement of the band members of Dakota Tipi First Nation. That is why I am speaking on their behalf, that they have to be addressed also of what is going on with the policing on our reserve.

Mr. Gerrard: What I am understanding you to say is that the bill should include provisions which would ensure that there is a democratic vote in, for instance, Dakota Tipi to provide for the mechanism for setting up the policing service in the community.

Ms. Prince: Yes.

Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I, too, found your presentation very compelling to listen to. This bill that we are addressing this evening is a bill, as you know, that does put Aboriginal police officers on the reserve. Could you give us some input in terms of the proposed commission in the bill that is set up for the police service? What aspects do you think would be very beneficial to ensure that the police officers on the reserve are not tied in to the political side of the chief and council, and things like that?

Ms. Prince: I believe, once again, that we would have to work closely with the community. The aspects of the politics and the policing do not tie in, and it all goes back into the community and what they want. Right now, today, the Dakota Tipi band members do not want Dakota Ojibway Police Service on their reserve, presently. This is what I am hearing from them, that we do not want it passed on our community, the bill.

Mrs. Smith: So, basically, you are saying that the police service absolutely has to be independent of all these political constraints within the reserve.

Ms. Prince: Yes.

Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Thank you very much for that very moving presentation. I need to ask a question for clarification. What you told us in your presentation, as I understood it, is that the police force that is on the Dakota Ojibway reserve is now controlled exclusively by the chief. Is that correct?

Ms. Prince: Yes.

Mr. Derkach: Is it also true that there is some question as to whether or not this police force is independent and is, in fact, acting in the best interests of residents of the reserve?

Ms. Prince: Yes. I do not believe that it is acting on the best interests of the band members. There is a lot of unreported crimes that are going on that they are not investigating, so they are not acting in the best interests of the reserve.

Mr. Derkach: You are proposing that the legislation here be changed to allow for a referendum, if you like, on the reserve to allow the residents of the reserve to have a say as to what form the police force should take on the reserve.

Ms. Prince: Yes, that is what I would like to see happen. The band members should have a say in their policing.

Mr. Chair: We have time for one more. Mr. Faurschou?

Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Marjorie, have you registered the complaints which you have aired with us this evening with anyone?

Ms. Prince: Yes, we have made complaints to Al Brolly as Deputy Justice, Jim Cockburn [phonetic], to LERA and to the Aboriginal policing commission.

Mr. Chair: One last question. Mr. Faurschou.

Mr. Faurschou: Seeing the complaints have been registered, has there been any action to address the complaints to date?

Ms. Prince: No, there has not been.

Mr. Chair: Thank you. Your time has expired. We can ask more questions of the other presenters.

A point of order? Mr. Gerrard.

* (19:20)

Mr. Gerrard: Just one point of clarification which may be important in the context. The Member for Russell on my right asked about the chief having responsibility for the police force, but it is my understanding there is a dispute over who is actually the chief. Is that correct?

Ms. Prince: That is correct. He claims that he is the chief, but I say I am the chief because I was elected in by vote with the band membership.

Mr. Chair: Thank you for your presentation. As Chair, I have a dilemma. I think we have Diana Traverse at the podium. Is that right? And second on the list of presenters is Edward Pashe. What is the will of the committee?

We will hear from Diana Traverse. Please proceed.

Ms. Traverse: Thank you. We are just standing here in support for Marjorie Prince.

Good evening. As you know, I am Diana Traverse. I am from Dakota Tipi.

On July 17, we boycotted the Bingo Palace of Dakota Tipi, the VLTs. Since early this spring, we have tried to meet with Steve Ashton and Diane McGifford and Eric Robinson to discuss the accountability and transparency of the VLTs and the gaming, the Bingo Palace of Dakota Tipi. They refused to meet with the band members and our interim chief, Marjorie Prince.

We met with the Aboriginal gaming commission in Winnipeg several times. At one of these, we found out when we had met with these people that ten percent of the revenues went to them and ninety percent went back into the community. Based upon the agreement that was signed with the chief and council with the band, they did not have any questions asked as to what happened with the revenue that was generated from the gaming that occurred from the businesses. So, on July 17, we took it upon our hands, based upon the decision of our interim chief; we boycotted it, and we sat there.

During the day, on July 17, the manager of the Bingo Palace came into the palace, into the business, and he told Marjorie Prince that he would close the Bingo Palace down until elections occurred in November, and he was willing to give the keys over to Marjorie Prince. We were waiting for the media to discuss what had transpired between the two of them. During this time, the Bingo Palace manager, Arden Pashe, his children, vandalized several of the vehicles that were outside in the parking lot. One of those vehicles was mine. One of the things that the boys stated in the media–they have always firmly addressed to the media–that we have been very violent and that we have been drug addicts and alcoholics and that we did not want to work. I told the bingo manager that. I said to him you say that we are violent.

DOPS was very unco-operative with us. They were trying to have us charged by being there, by making our presence known, that we were boycotting it and we were picketing it outside. Basically, we closed the Bingo Palace down based upon his decision. They were trying to have us charged, and the Crown had contacted one of our lawyers, and based upon that, there was no basis for them to charge us. They were very rude, making comments to us, like saying that they are working, that we are not. When there were comments made, they would not act on them, if there were threats that were being made.

On Saturday, I was viciously attacked by the Bingo Palace manager and his daughter, as you can see in my face. The daughter of the Bingo Palace manager–he coaxed her on to beat me up. I was just trying to approach him to see when he was going to pay for the damage that he had done to our vehicles, because my father-in-law's was one of the vehicles that was damaged, and he cannot get his vehicle out of the garage. I was just trying to approach him regarding that, and I am being charged for that. I do not know why I am being charged. I tried contacting them on Saturday and they told me that they did not want to talk to me.

They came by Saturday evening, July 20, to my house, and he would not come into the house; the constable–Jonsky [phonetic] is his name–basically said that he had a warrant statement that he wanted to take from me. I tried to ask him what a warrant statement was and he would not explain it to me. We had a youth pastor there with us. The youth pastor told me not to make any statements to him because of the warrant statement. He told my mom to shut up, basically because my mom told him, why can you not do your job? I looked at the constable and I said, you know, like I want you to apologize to my mom. You know, because my mom was not out of context to tell him why do you not do your job, basically to investigate properly.

When I confronted him about the vehicles regarding the Bingo Palace manager's daughter, when she had smashed up the vehicles, he said to us that it was not a criminal matter, that it was a civil matter. Now, if I were to go someplace and smash somebody's window anywhere in Canada, or if I tried to gouge out somebody's eye, I would be immediately removed and immediately charged for that. It is very frustrating to live in the community when you are trying to be a law-abiding citizen, to try and to raise your children in a safe environment, to try and raise your children to be law-abiding citizens and to be dictated by these individuals when we have fallen under the dictatorship of this leader based upon the band members in the community of Dakota Tipi. For the past 23 years, they have been under his dictatorship. As of September 1 of last year, he has removed the RCMP and put in place Dakota Ojibway Police Service.

We have sent several letters to Al Brolly regarding this, that there were many concerns in the community regarding the policing service of Dakota Ojibway policing, because they are very biased. They are very politically involved with the chief and council and various communities in Manitoba, and we were very concerned of that.

There are a lot of safety issues for the band members. We have been beaten by the chief and council's supporters, as you can see from my face. One of the things that he had said, the Bingo Palace manager, Arden Pashe, to his daughter: Get her in the face, get her in the face. You know, for a 15-year-old girl to be doing that to me, and for me to be charged for something that I did not do to her, it infuriates me.

There are a lot of situations in the community like, as Marjorie Prince has given you one example, and I am giving you another example. I am the ex of Dennis Pashe. I have been beaten by Dennis Pashe. This is one of the reasons why Dennis Pashe has brought in the Dakota Ojibway policing service because he was charged for domestic abuse. I will not tolerate violence in any way, shape, or form, may that be to be told shut-up by anybody, or may it be poked by the member of the Dakota Ojibway policing service. You have no right to be touched by anybody if it is not allowed by you.

We are taking a stand as members of parliament. We are voicing out our concerns to each and every one of you to put a stop to this policing service in our community because we do not want them in our community anymore, and we are taking a stand against that, and we are crying out to you, as you can see by my face. I have no criminal record. I have tried to abide by the law. I am almost 40 years old and I tried to keep my record clean. For this, it is very devastating to find that I am going to be charged for something that I did not do, and for the other members in the community where they are being charged for stuff that they have not done, and they are being incriminated by it, and their voices are not being heard. It is the same dictatorship.

* (19:30)

Frank McKay. You have called Frank McKay on numerous occasions regarding our situation, and it has gone on deaf ears. With Diane McGifford, with Steve Ashton, with Eric Robinson, with various other members of parliament, we have voiced our concerns regarding the safety issues in our community. Is it going to take somebody to die in our community before somebody takes a stand, before something is done in our community? Our community is very small. This is Canada, and we have a right to voice our concerns. This is Canada 2002 where we have a right to say something.

I am a woman, and I am native, but I have no job and I am poor, but I am voicing out to you to have pity upon us to take action against this police force, because they are very politically involved in our community and something needs to be rectified. They need to be disciplined.

One of the agreements when they become a police officer is that they are to abide for peace in our community, to be able to provide law, to provide safety, and that is not being done.

That is all I have to say. Thank you.

Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Ms. Traverse, for this incredible presentation and confession. To do this in front of this group has to take a lot of courage, and, certainly, I think all members around this table would want to thank you for stepping forward.

I guess I want to ask you about the steps you took regarding the gaming commission. You took those steps because you felt that the monies were not going to the places where they were meant to go, in terms of the profits. Is that correct?

Ms. Traverse: That is very correct. There is no transparency; there is no accountability. When we approached the Gaming Commission in Winnipeg, when we met with Al Brolly and Bill Dexter and a lawyer that they had, they told us they did not care. That was their words. They did not care what happened with that 90 percent of the revenue that was generated from the Bingo Palace or the VLTs. That was very alarming to us because that money was to go back into the community to go into a poverty relief fund, and/or create programs for the community, or into a religious organization, and that was not being done.

We were questioning the chief and council and also for the gaming commission people that were involved in Dakota Tipi, and they would not respond to us.

Mr. Derkach: Ms. Traverse, today I asked the Minister who is responsible for the Gaming Commission whether, in fact, the Dakota Tipi gaming commission was in compliance with the agreement between the Province and the Dakota Tipi First Nation.

The minister repeated his answer from July 16, in which he said that the gaming commission at Dakota Tipi was, indeed, in compliance. That means that, according to him, the monies are accounted for in a proper fashion, but you are telling us something entirely different today. Can I ask you, then, do you have any knowledge as to what is happening to the money from the gaming commission?

Ms. Traverse: Where are the programs? We live in the community. Where is that money going? One of the things is that it is supposed to go back into restoring the roads, restoring whatever, or youth programs. There are no youth programs in the community.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Derkach, I have three more people on the speakers' list, so I will come back to you later.

Next is Mr. Gerrard.

Mr. Derkach: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, and I hope this is not eating into the time of other questioners. But I have one more question to ask. I am not asking for unlimited time here, but we have a human rights issue in front of us. We have a woman who has been beaten by people on her reserve for a stand that she has taken in the name of justice. This committee, if it cannot do anything more than to listen to the concerns of these people, and, indeed, act on them as legislators should, then I wonder what we are all about.

Mr. Chair, I am only asking for one more question of this individual before I let the mike to someone else, if you would at least accommodate that.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to give Mr. Derkach another question? [Agreed]

Mr. Derkach: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Traverse, I asked the question of the Minister responsible for the Status of Women today about the impact that the aggressive gaming advertising has had on women in our province. The minister told me that there was no impact from the gaming advertisements and the increase in gaming and the addiction to gaming on the women of Manitoba because she has not had any calls.

The secretariat of the Status of Women has never had any phone calls or any complaints about gaming and the Province of Manitoba. Have you, or any of your members, ever contacted the Status of Women secretariat or the minister? You had indicated you had contacted the minister to meet with her about this issue.

Ms. Traverse: On several occasions we have made attempts to contact Diane McGifford. We went as far as Ottawa to voice our concerns. So far, it has gone on deaf ears. That is why we did what we did on July 17. We will continue to voice our concerns. If it is regarding our community and many other communities in Manitoba, we will do that. We will take a stand because we do have our rights.

Regarding the gaming, it has severely affected a lot of native children in Manitoba, women and children. There are a lot of reasons as to why there is a lot of violence, a lot of alcohol, drug problems in our community. It relates to poverty.

Mr. Gerrard: Thank you for your presentation. Certainly, you are courageous to stand up and to come here and talk about the experiences you have been through.

I want to refer to one of the documents that Marjorie Prince brought in, which is a letter to Mr. Al Brolly, of July 19, 2001, which is a year ago. In this letter, Marjorie Prince says: I would like to express that our reserve needs full-time assistance from the RCMP at all times.

This bill that we are dealing with deals with establishing the framework for an Aboriginal police force. One either has an Aboriginal police force, or the RCMP, or a clear relationship between the two, so that, in fact, you would have protection from the RCMP, if necessary. So I would ask you what you feel would be the best solution for Dakota Tipi.

Ms. Traverse: The best solution that I feel that we have for Dakota Tipi as a band member and also as a supporter for Marjorie Prince, I feel that the policing service should be removed and that it should be disassembled altogether. If it is going to be intact as Dakota Ojibway Police Service, it should be severely, severely re-established as a policing service because they are very bias and very political. That needs to be rectified and they need to re-educated regarding this. Also their ethical conducts, that needs to be rectified. They cannot go on the way they are going on. They have no respect for the elders. They have no respect for the band members. They are only there for the chief and council. I am not speaking on behalf of Dakota Tipi and I am not speaking on behalf of any other community in Manitoba because I am the one that lives there and I am the one who sees them.

When you call them for assistance, they say, what do you want, what now, or they hang up on you, or simply they just do not pick up the phone and you end up calling the RCMP. The RCMP says we have no jurisdiction over Dakota Tipi. It is frustrating when you have a prowler running around in your yard or in March where I had a prowler who literally smashed my sunroom and walked in, 5:30 in the morning, walked right into my bedroom with my children and myself when we were asleep–5:30 in the morning. It took me a good half hour before I got a hold of anybody, a half hour. By that time I could have been stabbed, beaten, raped. When the cop did finally arrive at the house, he was half awake. He was half awake. Where is the service? Where is the protection? They are being paid with your own tax money, with the people's tax money of Manitoba. That money needs to be accounted for, just like our revenues that are being generated in our community, it needs to be accounted for and to be placed in the appropriate places where they need to be placed in, not in somebody's pocket.

* (19:40)

Mrs. Smith: As you know, this bill, The Provincial Police Amendment (Aboriginal Policing) Act, puts police officers on the reserve under the watchful, supposedly watchful eye of the chief and council. Are you aware of that?

Ms. Traverse: I am very aware of that.

Mrs. Smith: The Attorney General of this province I would assume has been kept apprised of what has happened at the Dakota Tipi location, Gord Mackintosh.

Ms. Traverse: I am sorry.

Mrs. Smith: The Minister of Justice, Gord Mackintosh, is well aware–I notice from some of my documentation here, some of my letters are addressed to the Attorney General or the Minister of Justice, Gord Mackintosh, so he was fully aware of what was going on at Dakota Tipi.

Ms. Traverse: We have sent him the letters. We have not received any. What we have been doing, a lot of time it has gone on deaf ears, and it is just very frustrating for us. You see last year, as of August 6 of last year, we were cut off from all services, right down to welfare. We were fired from our jobs. We were denied schooling, education, health care we were denied, because we took a stand against the chief and council. It goes back to the accountability and transparency. He told us that he was going to starve us out of the community.

Right from day one, we have been voicing out to various members of parliament. We had a protest march on August 1 of last year. We had called it a civil rights movement. When we came here–we left on August 1 from the Perimeter and we marched down all the way down Portage Avenue–we had passed various packages around members of parliament and also various women's organizations. We only had one member of parliament that came out to speak to us, and nobody came out to talk to us.

It is very frustrating when that happens, when you are trying to voice out, when you are trying to send letters to various members of parliament.

Mr. Chairperson: Last question goes to Mr. Faurschou.

Mr. Faurschou: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Diana, you live—actually it is three short snappers, Mr. Chairman—you reside on the reserve yourself?

Ms. Traverse: That is right.

Mr. Faurschou: Do the Dakota Ojibway Police Service personnel, do they reside on the reserve?

Ms. Traverse: No, they do not. Constable Derek Smoke lives in, I believe, Southport. Another constable, I forget his name, he lives right in town. And the other members, I do not know exactly where they live. But the main detachment is out in Sandy Bay, which is about an hour and half away from the community. The RCMP is only five minutes away from the community.

Mr. Faurschou: Diana, have you seen or observed any change in the conduct of DOPS personnel since the change in management or administration of the Dakota Tipi to third-party management from Dennis Pashe and council?

Ms. Traverse: Dennis Pashe is still pushing his weight around in the community. He still states that he is the chief of the community. There is no change of the police force. There is no change in their attitude towards us. It is very scary. Like for me, for example, I do not know if I am going to be charged. I have three little kids. I have a five-year-old, a three-year-old and a one-year-old. It just petrifies me because I do not want a criminal record, because I want to eventually provide for my children in a job where I can choose. With a criminal record, I will not be able to do that.

It is like as if they are dictating again. It is like as if they are suppressing us. They are pushing us down because of this leader. It is like as if we are being suffocated and there is nothing that we can do about it. That is why we are here today to voice out our concerns, for you to hear this. That is all I can say.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. The next presenter is Mr. Edward Pashe.

Mr. Derkach: Is there a written presentation, or do these individuals have written presentations for us?

Mr. Chairperson: Normally, they provide a written presentation when they come to the podium. Ms. Traverse did not have a written presentation.

Please proceed. Do you have a written presentation?

Mr. Edward Pashe (Private Citizen): No, I do not. Because of circumstances, events that happened late last night on the reserve, the majority of us did not have time to start working on our presentations until this afternoon. Too busy dealing with some of the issues.

My name is Edward Pashe. I am a member of the Dakota Tipi First Nation. I am a member of the community. I am also a former member of the Dakota Ojibway Police Service.

Since I have moved back to the community, as of December of 2001, I got involved with what was going on in the community as a result of the arrest of the medicine man. I have seen how unfairly he was picked up and treated and that he was actually being targeted because of his political beliefs.

Mr. Vice-Chairperson in the Chair

I tried numerous times to talk to Frank McKay, the Chief of Police for DOPS. The deputy chief, at that time, was Dave Scott. They would not acknowledge, they would not talk to me, return phone calls. Any form of communications with the officers, there was not any because they believed that if you were a member of the opposition or dissidents, as they called us, then they would not talk to us.

After the person who sat on the police committee for DOPS left our community, the interim chief and council appointed me as the member to replace and sit on that committee. It is only after that that I have been able to get some kind of communication going with DOPS as to say I am a member of their police committee.

One thing I would like to say about DOPS is that–or any native policing agency, people are talking about them–as long as the chiefs of Manitoba or any province and their political bodies have a say in how that police force is run, it is never going to work because of all our politics and their abuse of power, which, in Dakota Tipi, is pretty easy to see. When one man can replace an entire federal police force just because he got charged, and to replace it with what we believe to be an inferior police force to do his bidding, they will listen to him.

I worked on many communities while I was a member of DOPS, and, if you rock the boat too much, you charge the wrong person, your career is very short with them. You charge the wrong person, a member of the chief and council's family, you got removed from that community and were placed somewhere else. I worked when it was called just DOTC police. Then I came back years later in '96 and worked till '99 when it was then referred to as DOPS. That was about 10 years in between working for them, and they did not change.

I would like to talk about some of the incidents that have been going on in Dakota Tipi that I have been trying to get answers to. There have been a lot of major, I guess I call them major criminal acts committed against the people of Dakota Tipi. Yet, to this day, no charges have ever been laid against the people that have committed them.

* (19:50)

The first one Marjorie Prince made reference to is the recreation hall fire that was committed by the band constable and the former band councillor, Arden Pashe. The traditional healer of the community, Keith Pashe, tried to make a statement to DOPS about his knowledge of it, and they told him they did not have time, that they would come back and take it, and he is still waiting for them. So he took it upon himself to write the Chief of Police, Frank McKay, a letter stating the knowledge that he had of this incident. No action ever came of it. At a band meeting where Frank McKay was present, when he was asked about it, he denied ever receiving it. But later, after the meeting was over, he made reference to certain things that were included only in that letter.

Another incident that happened concerned the former chief, where he used his vehicle as a weapon to run into a 16-year-old boy. After he knocked the boy down with his vehicle, he got out and tried to fight with him. The boy managed to get away and was taken to the Portage General Hospital. Dennis then went over to the DOPS office and spoke with the members who were present at the time. They came out of their office, got into their vehicles and left the community and did not return till the next day. No charges have ever been laid in this incident either.

Probably, the most publicized one is the stabbing of the two men. It happened on June 15. Dennis Pashe, his two boys, and several wannabe gang members stabbed two men and then proceeded to beat them with various sorts of clubs. Even though Dennis and his boys, his wannabe gang members, they are all on various types of peace bonds, recognizances to keep the peace and be of good behaviour. When DOPS showed up, nothing was ever done about it. Those people are still walking around in our community today, which is one of the reasons why some of us do not have the time to do a proper presentation, because of the events that were going on last night.

During that same incident, a young woman and her baby were also assaulted at that time, during that same incident, on June 15. Nothing has ever come of that yet.

On Saturday, July 19 or 20, one man was assaulted at what used to be called the Dakota Tipi gas bar. Dennis Pashe claims to have sold the reserve gas bar to one of his sons and one nephew. It now goes by the name of S & L gas bar. A man went over to purchase a pack of cigarettes early in the morning. He was assaulted by two men, one of the owners and his brother. When he tried to talk to DOPS about pressing charges, they told him that he could not press charges because it was a privately owned business. It was like their yard. We are telling him assault is assault. It does not matter where it happens.

To try and determine whether the sale of the gas bar was actually legal, we did ask him to open a file, an investigation. I took it upon myself to call the provincial sales tax to find out if there were any businesses registered under S & L. It turns out there is not, and they have no permits to sell gas or cigarettes. But they have been doing so for several months already.

I spoke to the deputy chief of DOPS this morning about the gunshots and the people running around last night, driving around, and asked him about what had been done about it. All he would tell me was that an officer did show up and speak with Dennis Pashe who told them that it was just a firecracker that went off. But all of us who live in the community have heard gunshots before, and that was no firecracker.

I think that is about all I have to say right now. I know I worked for DOPS before. I know what should and should not be done during an investigation. What these people are doing, you cannot even call it policing. They make so many comments like, we cannot charge the individual who assaulted you because this is a political matter. This is the type of comments we have to put up with from these people every day.

There is something happening on Dakota Tipi every day. We have been trying to settle everything down. We have been trying to work with the other side. But, every time they come up with a person who says they will work with us, something like last night happens where there is a carload of individuals riding around yelling and screaming at the houses saying you are all going to die tonight, and then gunshots go off. DOPS is never around. They are always either in Sandy Bay or Tim Horton's in town, in the city of Portage.

That is about all I have to say.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Edward Pashe, for your presentation. Are there any members of the committee who have questions? In my list are Mr. Derkach, Mr. Gerrard, Mrs. Smith and Mr. Faurschou.

Mr. Derkach is the first one.

Mr. Derkach: Thank you for the presentation. I want to ask a question about the monies that, I guess, are transferred from the federal government to the reserve for social programs and health programs. My question has to do with people who require those dollars for welfare. We have read in papers where people from Dakota Tipi have to come into Winnipeg to the soup kitchens, if you like, because they are not getting their money from the band for social assistance. Can you comment on that, please?

Mr. Pashe: Since I have come back to the community, back in December of 2001, the people on the reserve, mostly the women and children, were being punished by Dennis Pashe. They were not receiving any type of services from the community at all. They were not receiving any social assistance, hydro bills that normally would be paid were not.

He then came up with a reserve housing policy, forcing the people to pay rent and giving them, I would say, about a week to sign the order or face eviction.

Yes, and it is true that a lot of the people of Dakota Tipi had to come into Winnipeg to access the food banks. They even tried to stop this after a while.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Pashe, it is our understanding that there is a third party now put in place to manage the affairs, both on the INAC side and on the health and social services side. There are actually two firms that are now in place to manage those affairs. Has there been a change since Soaring Eagle, who, I believe, is owned by David Doer–has there been any change in the way that monies are now being administered for social and health services on the reserve?

Mr. Pashe: The only changes that have come about are that the people that were previously being denied social assistance are now receiving it. As for Soaring Eagle, no one has met this group yet. They refuse to meet with the interim chief and council. According to the terms of the agreement that they signed at medical services, they are supposed to be accountable to us and provide a monthly financial statement to us. The only thing we hear and that we know for sure is that they have hired Bill Traverse to work alongside them. He is also signing on our medical services account.

* (20:00)

Mr. Gerrard: My question to you deals with the bill that is before us, which is the Aboriginal Policing bill. It provides for a police commission for each First Nations police force, and one of the clauses deals for the provision of regulations which would specify the manner in which the police commission of the First Nations police force is to be composed, who would choose it, how it would be elected or what have you. I would ask your thoughts in terms of how one would set up the police commission, if that were the approach that were taken in Dakota Tipi, to make sure that the police force has a level of independence, integrity and authority that it needs to operate properly as a police force.

Mr. Pashe: I believe that, if the committee was going to work, the members would have to be either elected or picked from the grass-roots people themselves. Having band employees appointed to sit on such a committee has never worked, and never will, because they always will have their jobs hanging over their heads.

Mr. Gerrard: My next question deals with the commission and how one ensures that, if it were to be set up under the force here, what would be the relationship with the Aboriginal police force and the RCMP? If you have band members, for example, who are not able to get a call answered by the Dakota Ojibway policing service, should there be some recourse to the RCMP, or what should be the relationship between DOPS and the RCMP?

Mr. Pashe: Well, if there are going to be two police forces in the province, there should be some type of a level of communication and understanding; or, if one was not able to answer a call, if the other one was five minutes away, they should be able to take the call. Like in the incident that happened last night where one member of Dakota Tipi got assaulted and had a hockey stick broken over his back, even though DOPS was right there. It happened 10 feet off the reserve. They would not respond to it. They said it is out of their jurisdiction.

Mrs. Smith: Thank you for your courage to come here tonight and present to this committee. It is both shocking and compelling to listen to what you have to say. I am wondering if Bill Traverse is a member of the band.

Mr. Pashe: No, he is not.

Mrs. Smith: I am wondering. We have just gone over the fact that members of this Government knew full well about what was happening at Dakota Tipi, prior to this presentation tonight. Could you tell me why in the world would a bill, The Provincial Police Amendment (Aboriginal Policing) Act, come forward like this? What would be the reason that this Government would bring this forward, knowing that this situation, this dictatorship, is happening at Dakota Tipi and knowing that this bill would reinforce that dictatorship?

Mr. Pashe: I believe the only reason they would try and present such a bill would be to rid themselves of their responsibility.

Mrs. Smith: Quite obviously. I know, and I know the Justice Minister and this provincial government know that the mandate of a police force is to serve and protect. That is what the mandate is, and, tonight, listening to this, this definitely is not happening.

In your opinion, what would you like to see happen to this bill?

Mr. Pashe: Well, from what I have seen of it so far, I would like to see it die right on the table, the way it is now.

Mr. Faurschou: I was wondering, when did you see the change in ownership at the gas bar to S & L?

Mr. Pashe: I believe their signs came out in either March; I believe, they put up a sign saying S & L gas bar.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Faurschou, you have time for one more question.

Mr. Faurschou: So that I am clear on that, the fact is it came out prior to the third party taking over administration of the Dakota Tipi affairs, and I just want to ask about the amenities of the gas bar. The cigarettes, the gasoline, are they, to your knowledge, being delivered by reputable suppliers?

Mr. Pashe: Whatever they have by way of cigarettes and that, we do not know who their suppliers are. It has been rumoured when I have been asking around, trying to find out where it is, they say it is coming from the Mohawks in Ontario. But we have no proof of this. As for their gas, it has been closed down. The gas was being delivered from a company from Amaranth, but even that shut down after a while because the manager of the gas bar is addicted to cocaine and he spent the last bit of money on his habit.

Now, with this third-party manager, we believe that he applied for some kind of grant, a $5,000 grant, to go out and get himself started back up again. The third-party manager will not do anything about the gas bar because he says he is only accountable to INAC. The manager of this gas bar has a vehicle registered to the Dakota Tipi First Nation, and this is the one that was driving around last night threatening people and responsible for firing off the shots. We are trying to get that vehicle taken away, but DOPS will not do anything. The third-party manager will not do anything. The only thing left to do is take it back ourselves, and, as a result, we will be the only ones that get charged because of this.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. The next presenter is David G. Newman.

Oh, sorry, we have two more out-of-town presenters. Sheila James is next. Do you have a written presentation?

Ms. Sheila James (Private Citizen): No, I do not.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, please proceed.

Ms. James: My name is Sheila James. I am a band member at Dakota Tipi. I also was elected in as interim councillor. I just kind of wanted to talk to you about some issues that we are still facing out there. I want to go a little bit more into detail of the June 15 assault. At that time, we saw a lot of influence that Dennis Pashe had with the policing on the reserve. We saw that he was still calling the shots and that he was giving orders to people to beat up other people.

At that time, there was a young band member who was stabbed in the throat with an elk antler. His esophagus was ripped. He was taken to Portage District Hospital and then rushed to Health Sciences Centre. At that time, his wife was with him, took him to the Portage hospital, and she went outside to have a cigarette. At that time, let me just kind of go back a little bit, Dennis Pashe's son, Preston Pashe, also claimed that he was assaulted and went to the hospital too. But he was the assaulter on Terrence Richard who was stabbed in the throat.

* (20:10)

We even have witnesses. You know, there is a witness. No charges have been laid on Preston, but, okay, he was at the hospital and Dennis, when Terrence's wife came out for a cigarette, he was standing there with a DOPS officer and a couple of other of his wannabe goons, gang people, supporters, whatever you want to call them, some of whom are not even from the reserve. But he was standing there and he was ordering those people to get out of their car and beat that young woman up. There was an officer standing present, and when she questioned, why are you letting this man talk to me and make threats against me like that, that is when the officer, kind of, you know, pushed Dennis aside and told him, like, get out of here for now, you know. And she was still looked upon as being the bad person.

When Preston Pashe, who apparently was beaten up, went back to the reserve and then assaulted another band member's spouse. I mean, you know, this guy was stabbed in the head by Dennis Pashe. He was beaten with a metal rod and, you know, just kicked and fought, and yet those people who did that, there have been no charges laid to this date. We believe that he has really lost his mind in ways, that he is even ordering his own children to do these acts. Would anybody in their right state of mind ask their own children to go out and try and fight or put themselves in harm fighting for his cause?

That is what I wanted to say about that. I get really emotional, too, when I think about all these issues. That same night, that little baby Eddie was talking about, the mother is a terminally ill woman. She just came back from having chemo, and he grabbed that woman, and she is not a very strong woman, he grabbed her and he flung her down. Anyone of us as women can be just beaten up by this man at any given time, any place. That really scares me. It scares me a lot. I have small children, too, and I am going to have another baby. Is he going to come out somewhere because I oppose him and fling me around, assault me in front of my children or even hurt them?

I mean, there has to be something done. There has to be some form of policing that is going to be out there to protect us. We do not want DOPS in our community anymore. We want them out as soon as possible, but we feel that we have no one to turn to, and that is why we bring this to you. Maybe you can give us direction as to who to speak to next on this issue.

With the gaming, we have asked and asked and asked for someone to try and help us, to shut the palace down and the VLTs because we felt that the money was used as an incentive. You know, maybe they will buy them something or they will give them a little bit of spending money if they were to commit crimes against the people who are opposed to him.

It has just got to stop. Nobody would help us. We shut the palace down ourselves in a picketing way. We took direction from the elders, from the other band members when we did shut it down. Then he is coming out there intimidating us, and the police are right there. They are just sitting there and he is driving by and calling people down, but we are sitting there very peaceful.

Another thing that happened during our protest was that we had our children there. A lot of us are mothers or women with children. We had our little children there, and the DOPS officer came in with sirens blaring and lights flashing. You could hear their wheels squealing right across the parking lot. I went to go and approach one of the officers and ask him, could you please, when you are pulling in here and we are having a peaceful demonstration, could you please lower your speed, and he would not even talk to me. He would not even acknowledge that I was talking to him. What kind of a police service is that when they cannot even give the people that they are supposed to be policing the time of day? We just feel that we need some sort of help.

We want the Bingo Palace, the VLTs, closed until there can be an election. We do not want him using that money. Even the gas bar, we would like to find out who actually owns the gas bar. We assume that it is still band property. They are using the band trucks that are registered under the Dakota Tipi band.

We want everybody to be living fairly. We want to shut down all of the businesses and just let everything cool off and wait until after the election. Again, we ask for your help.

Mrs. Smith: Thank you once again for coming, Sheila James. It takes a lot of courage to come and present at a committee like this. It is extremely helpful to know the truth and to know what is really going on.

You mentioned gang members. You mentioned that there has been issues on the reserve that have to do with people on an and off the reserve. In your knowledge, are there any gang members that are known gangs that operate on the reserve other than the local people?

Ms. James: Yes, but the next speaker will take care of that issue regarding gangs. But, yes, I do know that there are gang members. I can tell one story without stepping on the next speaker's toes.

My own brother was living on the reserve. He had his house there, and they just all of a sudden moved in, gang members, into his house. He did not like this. He did not feel comfortable with the Manitoba Warriors president at that time and family living in his home. My brother is a very honest type. He is also kind of passive in a way too. He had really no say under the dictatorship of Dennis Pashe, who was to live at his house with him. It made him feel so uncomfortable that he moved away from the reserve. He gave his home away. Since then, for educational reasons, he has even had to transfer off the reserve, because he was denied education because of his decision not to help the Manitoba Warriors.

Mrs. Smith: Who is in the home right now?

Ms. James: Since then the house has flooded out really bad. The water table is very high at Dakota Tipi in some areas. But they are not there right now. The gang leaders are not in that house now.

Mr. Faurschou: How long have you resided on the Dakota Tipi reserve?

Ms. James: Let me clarify that. I do not exactly live on the reserve, but I do spend a lot of my time there. The reason I do not live on the reserve is because of the dictatorship of Dennis Pashe. I live in your area actually. I live off the reserve because of the fear of Dennis Pashe and his activities. I did not feel that I could live personally under that sort of dictatorship, so I am taking it as an off-reserve person, but I still am elected into council by the people.

Mr. Faurschou: For clarification for the committee's own knowledge, you are an official band member of Dakota Tipi First Nation.

Ms. James: Yes.

Mr. Faurschou: So in that capacity and now as elected to council on the interim board, how many persons do you consider band members for Dakota Tipi?

Ms. James: We have a lot of band members who are on and off the reserve. I do not have the exact numbers because I have to sit there and think about how many are adults. Approximately 300 band members all together maybe. That is adults and children.

* (20:20)

Mr. Faurschou: And estimated on and off the reserve?

Ms. James: Yeah. I would say both, on the reserve about 100, maybe 120 at the most, including children. I have not done a head count in a while.

Mr. Gerrard: Thank you for your presentation. It certainly describes a very troubling situation in Dakota Tipi. We have before us today the bill which would provide for establishing and running Aboriginal police services. We have heard from other presenters that probably the best circumstance might be to kill this bill entirely. I would ask you whether this could be amended so that there would be some Dakota Ojibway policing service which was responsive to the community and whether there is a possibility of having a service which really does what you need and what you want, which is an Aboriginal service. What do you think?

Ms. James: I think that there are a lot of politics on the reserve and off the reserve as well, I mean at the higher organizations. Now, I hate to step on anybody's toes, but over the years I have seen chiefs who do influence higher powers. I hate to say this, but the former chief used to do a lot of influencing at AMC and AFN and whoever else. It is very hard to say if it would work because the way I have seen things. I know it does not happen everywhere, but the way I have seen things, with Dennis Pashe, he had a lot of control at the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. He also had a lot of pull, at times, with AFN.

We have seen that first-hand, when AMC would deny to help us in our stand. They chose to help Dennis Pashe financially and they would not even give us a second look, yet we are the grassroots people who are crying out for help. These people are getting money that comes from Ottawa, and it is brought down to them and then stemmed out to us. They should be there helping us and I think that it is too political, I am sorry to say.

I think that the policing would, in our area–I cannot say for everybody because just the way I feel right now with what we have gone through, I would probably be almost in a biased situation to discuss that.

Mr. Chairperson: This is your last question, Mr. Gerrard.

Mr. Gerrard: What I hear you saying is if it was to be an Aboriginal police force, there has to be very solid guarantees that it would be independent, that it would not be subject to political influence, as is happening at the moment, and that there would have to be processes for, I do not know, review or appeal or the ability to establish links with the RCMP that would make sure that there was functional service to people in the community.

Ms. James: That is right, but at the same time I feel that it would be very, very hard to have this kind of service without political involvement, political insight from leaders.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Derkach, you have time for one question.

Mr. Derkach: Ms. James, your group of concerned citizens did take a position against the Bingo Palace because you felt that the funds were not being channeled in the right direction, as I understand it.

Were you aware that under the agreement between Manitoba Lotteries and the band, that indeed the minister has the power to terminate the agreement and actually close the casino, even without cause, but more importantly for a cause where monies, in fact, are not being channeled into the areas that they are supposed to be channeled into. Are you aware of that?

Ms. James: Yes. When we first started to ask for gaming at our reserve, that was so that we could put the money in towards where we had a shortage of funding, say towards medical or education. Before these other initiatives came out, like Healthy Communities, we were already asking for gaming to flourish these activities in our community, like, you know, little extras because where we live right now there is a plant located across the road that does not smell too well. We call it quality of life where we maybe have to give the people central air because they cannot go outside and enjoy the fresh air, sit around outside because it smells like something died, you know, with rot.

You know, this money was supposed to be put into the little extras to build our community, make our community a better place. At first it was, but in recent years we just have not seen where the money is going. We do not know where it is going. We do not know if, you know, this money is going–there could even be a hit out on me. Who knows. Maybe the money was funded through gaming. To my knowledge, we do not know where the money is going. We do not see it being put into programs. The children are being denied schooling, people who are opposed to the former chief and council. So, obviously, the money is not going towards helping their education. There is a low percentage at our big beautiful school.

So, you know, we do not have a medical there. There are different little things we could have that we just cannot see where the money is going. We maybe see it in the councillor's Harley Davidson bike or the chief's yacht, you know, like kind of things like that, driving a brand new Avalanche. Meanwhile, we are just hoping to get by on whatever little bits of money we can scrape up to get to meetings like this or to make presentations where we have to fax a lot of paper or make copies. They always call us drug addicts, drunks, lazy people. Well, all of us have been willing to give blood samples to prove that this is not the case. If we were so lazy, why would we be out here pushing and pushing and asking for help and doing this and that trying to get our points through. That is all I have to say.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. We have one more presenter on this bill from out of town. Lorraine Elk. Ms. Elk. Do you have a written presentation?

Ms. Lorraine Elk (Private Citizen): No.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, please proceed.

Ms. Elk: Hi. I am Lorraine Elk. I am a band member of Dakota Tipi First Nation, and I am here to speak about the gangs.

Back in 1996 is when Dennis Pashe had first brought in the gangs. They were hired as security guards for the reserve. These gangs had more privilege for jobs and education and housing than the real band members did. They just intimidated the people, harassed kids and elders and the regular band members, right to the point where they started beating up on band members like my husband and his brother.

Back in July 22, 1999, they attacked my husband and his brother, and they beat them up really good. To this day, that case is still in the courts. It got transferred to Winnipeg and was remanded until November 4, I believe, of this year. I was the only witness to this assault, and that is how I lost my job. I was secretary for Dakota Tipi School for seven years, and, because I showed up and testified against Dennis's goons, I lost my job. From there, my kids could not go to school on the reserve. I had to put my two older daughters in care just so they could go to school off the reserve. They now live in Winnipeg and they are going to school. They do not want to come back to the reserve because of all the political stuff that has been happening. They do not feel safe there. We had to drive our kids to school every day. I have two boys going to school in Portage and I drive them every day.

* (20:30)

Things have been just happening when these goons were there terrorizing people. Since DOPS came on September 1 last year, I have seen these gang members back on the reserve sometimes, but not all the time. When I do see them, I will call the DOPS. By the time the DOPS come to the reserve from Sandy Bay, they are gone already. They said there was really nothing they could do, but there is a court order for these gang members to stay off the reserve right now.

There was an incident that happened December 24, 2001. We were just coming back from Winnipeg, and I saw one of the gangs at Dennis's house and I immediately phoned DOPS right away. He came out within 10 minutes, he was in Portage, but by then that gang member, he left. I do not know where he went to. I did not see him after that. But the DOPS took my statement of how I saw them and where I saw them. Then he ran a check on the guy, Clayton Flett, and he said the court order was lifted December 21. I said, well, how could that be because the case is still in the court system right now? He said, well, it was lifted and there is nothing we can do, and the gangs can come on the reserve if they want to. But I phoned Joyce Dalmyn, the Crown Attorney, and she told me there is a court order, to phone Chris Vanderhooft in Winnipeg to get the copy of that court order and give it to the DOPS. So I related that to one of the officers and he said he was going to do that, but he never told me if he did or not.

That is all I wanted to say about the gangs.

Mrs. Smith: Thank you. I know it is hard to speak to a committee and sometimes memories are not the easiest thing to relay, but thank you for coming. I certainly admire your courage for doing that.

Can you remember any specific names or any gang members that you have seen there recently, and have you seen any increased activity in that area?

Ms. Elk: Once I saw Michael Joe Flett, and I immediately phoned DOPS. By the time DOPS would come, they are gone. That incident there, December 21 2001, really I have not seen them around. If they do come around, they are really sneaky because they know there is a court order.

Mrs. Smith: What was the reason for you given? I understand you were secretary to the school for seven years and you lost your job, so I would assume that somebody terminated your employment and gave you a reason. What was that reason?

Ms. Elk: I never received a paper stating that your services are no longer needed. I never received anything. It was just verbal between Dennis Pashe and myself, and for two years he has been harassing me at work, wanting me to phone the Crown attorneys stating that I never witnessed no assault. I kept telling him I would, just to keep my job, and he kept telling me if you do not, you are going to lose your job, you are going to starve and all of this.

So right up until September 4 and 5, I was just about going to follow his orders, but then I thought, like, this is wrong. I should not let these gang members get away with this, and I showed up and I lost my job.

Mrs. Smith: Can you tell us what particular assault you witnessed and when you witnessed that?

Ms. Elk: Excuse me, I did not hear her.

Mrs. Smith: Can you tell me what particular assault you are referring to that Dennis Pashe wanted you to call the Crown Attorneys about and when did that assault occur?

Ms. Elk: July 22, 1999, the assault that happened at Dakota Tipi.

Mrs. Smith: That is the one with your husband and brother. That is the one that is still in the courts at this time.

Ms. Elk: Yes.

Mrs. Smith: Thank you.

Mr. Gerrard: Can you just help us understand a little bit the situation with DOPS? Sometimes they are at Sandy Bay and they cannot come to Dakota Tipi.

How far is Sandy Bay? How long does it take, and why are they at Sandy Bay and stationed so far away?

Ms. Elk: Sandy Bay is about an hour-and-a-half drive north of Dakota Tipi. I do not know why they are stationed over there. They should be stationed at Dakota Tipi where we need police service.

Mr. Gerrard: It seems to me that there needs to be something done on a very urgent basis to restore credibility to the police service in Dakota Tipi, given the circumstances you describe.

What would you recommend in terms of being able to provide an immediate answer, as well as looking at the question of what is a long-term solution.

Ms. Elk: Well, all the problems we have been having with Dakota Ojibway Police Service, a lot of people are not happy with their services. It seems they only listen to the former chief and council and his supporters, whereas our complaints, nothing ever happens.

I wish we had different policing for Dakota Tipi.

Mr. Derkach: Lorraine, I have a question with respect to the third party that manages the health and social services area, once again.

Now, this party was brought in to administer the affairs of the band, as a result of the chaos that existed under the former chief, as I understand it. Now that was put into place by the federal government, I would think. Has this third party acknowledged the interim council, or are they working with you as interim council members to administer the areas of responsibility that they have?

Ms. Elk: No, they do not recognize us as interim chief and council, just regular band members.

* (20:40)

Mr. Derkach: So let me get this straight. The federal government, under section 74, has given notice that the chief, Dennis Pashe, would be removed from his responsibilities as the chief on the Dakota Tipi reserve and that a third party, namely Soaring Eagle, would be put in place to administer the health and social affairs area of the band.

The people have chosen an interim council to act on their behalf. Even though the federal minister has sort of removed the present chief, Soaring Eagle still continues to deal with Dennis Pashe. Is that correct?

Ms. Elk: Yes.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Faurschou: You have been a lifelong resident or member of Dakota Tipi First Nation?

Ms. Elk: I have been a band member of Dakota Tipi for 17 years.

Mr. Faurschou: In those 17 years, are you aware of the police services changing from DOPS to RCMP and now back to DOPS again?

Ms. Elk: Yes.

Mr. Chairperson: One more question.

Mr. Faurschou: Could you elaborate as to the years when DOPS was policing versus RCMP versus DOPS?

Ms. Elk: We never had DOPS before. It was always RCMP. It just changed September 1, 2001.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Chairperson: We have an out-of-town presenter on another bill. We have Grand Chief Francis Flett on Bill 19. Is Mr. Flett in the room? Please take the podium. Do you have a written presentation?

Mr. Francis Flett (Grand Chief, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak): Yes, we do. We do have all the presentations that we are going to be handing out.

Mr. Chairperson: Please proceed.

Mr. Flett: Maybe I can start off, and thank you very much for the opportunity to address the Committee on Law Amendments. We are here to do a presentation on Bill 19, but I also want to make a statement before we actually get into the presentation.

Back in November 18, 1999, there was an MOU that was signed between Minister Mihychuk and MKO, that MOU is going to be a part of the package that is going to be presented to you. Some of the concerns that will be addressed through the bill have never really been addressed through the MOU.

MKO is a political organization. It is there to promote, enhance and protect the rights of First Nations people. The rights that I speak about are the treaty rights and the rights to resources. I just want to make it very clear that this is one of our intentions.

On May 8, 2002, Bill 19, The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act was introduced by Minister Mihychuk. Minister Mihychuk explained that Bill 19 will help to promote exploration and development, mining activities in Manitoba and to help enhance the quality and land tenure in Manitoba.

Of concern to the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak First Nation is that Bill 19 broadens and reinforces the free-entry system by proposing at section 52(3) of Bill 19 to grant mineral access rights, which would include the ability to enter, use and occupy Crown lands in order to carry out exploration activities.

In addition, MKO is not provided an opportunity by the minister to participate in the development of Bill 19. If you refer back to the MOU and the process that was chosen, to use that process to jointly work together in partnership did not happen. The free-entry system permits the mineral operator to enter lands where minerals are in the hand of the Crown and obliges the Government to grant exploration and development rights if the miner applies for them. In most cases a prospector licence or equivalent must be obtained first. But it has always been freely available.

If the applicant has met all the prerequisites for the claim or mining lease, the minister has no discretion, but instead has a duty to issue the disposition. The free-entry system, while always strongly supported by mining industry, in that it provides licensed prospectors with absolute title to minerals and typically an absolute right to mine is a reflection of the land-use plan and First Nations-Crown relationship that were in effect at the time of European colonization. The present Mines and Minerals Act reflects many of the basic principles of the free-entry system.

The free-entry system features expressed under Manitoba law are: upon the payment of $10 Manitoba will issue a lifetime, nontransferable, prospecting licence to any person over 18 years of age without other requirements. Licensed prospectors many enter, remain, travel upon Crown mineral lands that are operated for prospecting and staking out of any prospect, stake out and work on such land, including bringing into the land any vehicle, machinery, equipment, supplies, personnel or temporary accommodations as required.

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I am just going to skip part of my presentation. I will just start off on page 7, where it says the free-entry system as it affects the rights, interest and lands of the MKO First Nation is no longer appropriate within the MKO region. Whether as represented in the existing Mines and Minerals Act and as proposed to be reinforced in Bill 19 for at least the following reasons: the negotiations, promises and terms of treaties 4, 5, 6 and 10. The Constitution Act 1982 recognizes and affirms the Aboriginal and treaty rights of MKO First Nation.

The courts of Canada including the Supreme Court have clearly ruled that the provincial and federal government must first justify any infringements of the exercise of Aboriginal and treaty rights prior to the granting of any natural resources, related licences, permits or allocations. The courts have further ruled that the failure to justify an infringement will leave the permit, licence or allocation subject to challenge and Manitoba has entered into a binding commitment to the co-operation; plan, and manage the land and natural resources within the resource management area of the MKO First Nation, which signed December 1977 Northern Flood Agreement. In a December 15, 2000, ministerial statement, the Manitoba Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) declared the Northern Flood Agreement to be a treaty.

These matters have not been addressed by the minister or the Government during the first reading and debate on Bill 19. This commitment must ensure that the fiduciary obligations and binding commitments of Manitoba are adequately reflected in provincial mines and minerals legislation, including any amendments being proposed in Bill 19. Much of Bill 19 comes from the recommendations made by the Mines Legislation Review Committee. Following review and comment by trade and mines working group of officials from the Department of Industry, the Mines Legislation Review Committee was formed in late 1998 by the former minister and is made up of representatives of the mining industry, prospectors and heavy construction sector.

MKO initially participated in the Manitoba minerals guidelines process initiative by a former minister. The Manitoba minerals guidelines process was intended to bring together representatives from First Nations, Métis, northern communities and Manitoba miners industry to begin a relationship building process and to create mutually beneficial opportunities. During the process it has become clear that many of these issues affecting the relationship between the MKO Fi