LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Friday, December 4, 1992

The House met at 10 a.m.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

PRESENTING PETITIONS

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Maureen Klippenstein,Sandi Kauenhofen, Maureen Johnston and others, urging thegovernment of Manitoba to pass the necessarylegislation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning inthe province of Manitoba.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourablemember for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). It complies with theprivileges and the practices of the House and complies with therules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have thepetition read?

To the Legislature of the province of Manitoba

WHEREAS each year smoke from stubble burning descends uponthe province of Manitoba; and

WHEREAS the Parents Support Group of Children with Asthma haslong criticized the harmful effects of stubble burning; and

WHEREAS the smoke caused from stubble burning is not healthyfor the general public and tends to aggravate the problems ofasthma sufferers and people with chronic lung problems; and

WHEREAS alternative practices to stubble burning arenecessitated by the fact that the smoke can place some people inlife‑threatening situations; and

WHEREAS the 1987 Clean Environment Commission Report onPublic Hearings, "Investigation of Smoke Problems fromAgriculture Crop Residue and Peatland Burning," contained therecommendation that a review of the crop residue burningsituation be conducted in five years' time, including are‑examination of the necessity for legislated regulatory control.

THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the LegislativeAssembly will urge the government of Manitoba to pass thenecessary legislation/regulations which will restrict stubbleburning in the province of Manitoba.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

AND

TABLING OF REPORTS

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status ofWomen): This Sunday, December 6, marks the third anniversary ofthe tragic day when 14 women students were gunned down at theEcole polytechnique in Montreal. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that allmembers of this House will recall the shock and the horror we allfelt as the news of the tragedy became public.

Once again, we extend our condolences and our sympathy to thefamilies and friends of the women who lost their lives in thatsenseless violent attack. We mourn the loss of these young womenand of all those women in Canada who have been killed throughacts of senseless violence.

Mr. Speaker, our government has taken strong steps towardsdealing with violence against women and will continue to do so.Some recent initiatives that have been taken are the unanimousadoption by this Legislature of a resolution declaring Manitoba adomestic‑violence‑free zone, the creation and recent expansion ofthe family violence court to facilitate the expeditious andsensitive disposition of abuse cases, amendments to The FamilyMaintenance Act providing Manitoba women stronger protectionagainst harassment and abuse from partners‑‑this gives themfaster and easier access to nonmolestation orders and facilitatesquicker access‑‑an additional 10.4 percent or $500,000 allocatedthis year to the crisis shelter and resource centre systems forthe provision of follow‑up services and child counsellingservices.

Regretfully, Mr. Speaker, unhealthy and destructive attitudescannot be altered through government intervention alone. We allhave a role to play in raising awareness and changing attitudes.I ask all members of the House and all of the people of Manitobato work together with our government to make the changes thatwill allow all women to live free of fear and violence.

The anniversary of the Montreal massacre has been declared anational day of remembrance and action on violence againstwomen. On Sunday, December 6, let us all take time to rememberthe Montreal women as well as the Manitoba women who have beenvictims of violence. At 7 p.m. that evening, December 6, amemorial vigil will be held on the legislative grounds inremembrance of women who have been victims of abuse. I encourageall members to attend. Our government and our communities canand must continue to work together toward the common goal of asafer and healthier future for all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr.Speaker.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I rise as well onbehalf of the official opposition to speak out about the eventsof December 6, 1989, and the three years that have gone by theboard since that awful day. I think we all, as the minister hassaid, remember what we were doing and our feelings of shock,grief, horror, anger and dismay in 1989 and since then.

I think it is important for us to realize that while we willnever not grieve and not remember the women who died on that dayand the impact that it hopefully has had on all of our lives, thetime for grieving in its active form is past and the time foraction on behalf of all of us is well underway. We all haveparticipated and understand the white ribbon campaign that hasbeen undertaken last year and this year, Men Against ViolenceAgainst Women. I think we all agree that this is a very positivefirst step to be undertaken.

I would like to echo the call of the minister and make it alittle more specific. I think that the actions of women's groupsand women individually and women's initiatives have gone a longway toward educating the population and toward making some stepstoward ending this scourge of male violence against women. Ithink it is now time for all of us men and women to urge the menin our society to take an even more active role as individuals,as members of groups, as members of churches, as members ofsocial organizations, as well as members of government, to beginto reflect on and take positive action against this problem,which is in its largest component male violence against women.

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I think it is time for us to work together, but it is alsotime for us to have men taking even more initiatives in theirdaily lives and in all of their public and private roles to endthis horrible scourge, as I have said, in actions against half ofour society.

As the President‑elect of the United States has said, we donot have any people, we do not have any individuals to waste, andright now in our society, we are wasting. One‑quarter of ourpopulation, one‑fourth of our population, women, have been abusedor will be abused at some point in their lives, and any oneinstance of that is a waste and should not be tolerated.

So I am urging all members of the House, in all of theirlives, to carry on this action so that we can at some point inour future pause and remark about December 6 and the positivethings that have come out of that awful day. Thank you.

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.Speaker, on December 6 three years ago, 14 women were gunned downbecause they were women, and that was the only explanation,because they were women, and because a man in a societydetermined that somehow or other the rights of women had becometoo enlarged, had become too powerful, and that he could not copeor exist in a society where women could share in some sense ofequity with the men of that society. It is really what violenceis so often about; it is about power, about how one individual,be he male or female, can in an act of violence say, I amsuperior to another human being. That is the fundamentalattitude that we have to change in our society, that we must beable to relate to individuals not in a power sense but in a humansense and an individual sense.

I join the minister in inviting everyone here as well asothers to attend the memorial service on Sunday night, and Iparticularly ask the men to attend, because it is your signalthat is so much more important than my signal or the minister'ssignal or the member for Wellington's (Ms. Barrett) signal thatyou want to effect this genuine change in the power structure,that you want to say that equality is really what it is allabout, because it is not just violence to women, it is violenceto members of visible minority communities; it is violencetowards aboriginal peoples, it is all part of the same morassthat we live in. It is all about power, and we have to changethe direction of that and recognize that under our skin, underour gender, we are all human and we must therefore speakeloquently to each other as human beings and stand tall as humanbeings in protection of one another. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, Iwould like to table the 1991‑92 Annual Report of the Departmentof Environment.

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INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill 9‑The Winter Roads (Miscellaneous Amendments) Act

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation):Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairsand responsible for Native Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Bill 9, TheWinter Roads (Miscellaneous Amendments) Act (Loi sur les routesd'hiver‑‑modifications de diverses dispositions legislatives), beintroduced and that the same now be received and read a firsttime.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 10‑The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, Iwould like to move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources(Mr. Enns), that Bill 10, The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment andConsequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur lapropriete agricole et apportant des modifications correlatives ad'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now receivedand read a first time. (Recommended by His Honour the LieutenantGovernor.)

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table His Honour's message.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 202‑The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded bythe member for Swan River (Mrs. Wowchuk), that Bill 202, TheResidential Tenancies Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur lalocation a usage d'habitation, be introduced and that the same benow received and read a first time.

Motion presented.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, the purport of this bill is toenable tenants to organize themselves into tenants' organizationswithout fear of intimidation or harassment by landlords. Manytenants do not know their rights or responsibilities andtherefore are at a disadvantage compared to landlords who canafford to hire lawyers.

The bill will make it easier for tenants to organize, whetherit is to band together to fight a rent increase, or to requestrepairs or heat, or any of the other numerous problems thattenants face for which the solidarity of a tenants' organizationis advantageous.

Motion agreed to.

Bill 8‑The Insurance Amendment Act

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and CorporateAffairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister ofFamily Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 8, The InsuranceAmendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les assurances, beintroduced and that the same be now received and read a firsttime.

Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests

Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attentionof honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us thismorning, from the Red River Community College, 22 EnglishLanguage students. They are under the direction of Ms. ShelleyBates. This English training school is located in theconstituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr.Hickes).

On behalf of honourable members, I would like to welcome youhere this morning.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Federal Mini Budget

Manitoba Interests

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker,unfortunately, a Tory is a Tory is a Tory; economic failure iseconomic failure is economic failure. Unfortunately, today wesee in Canada the unemployment rate going up. It is now secondonly to 1983, the Liberal unemployment rate of 1983 nationally.The unemployment rate is going up in Manitoba againunfortunately, and yet we had a number of reports of meetingsthat took place between the provincial Conservatives and thefederal Conservatives yesterday in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker, in 1988 this government said, and the Premiersaid, it is an election promise, that he only had to pick up thephone and talk to the Prime Minister and federal‑provincialmatters would be resolved. He lectured us in the House, and Ihave Hansard quote after Hansard quote about how they would havemore positive relationships with the federal government becauseTories could deal with Tories better than the former government.We do not see a new core area agreement; we do not see the kindof ERDA agreement that was negotiated prior to this governmentcoming into office, and we see many items of federal‑provincialrelations that were negotiated in '87‑‑for example, the diseaselab‑‑without any results at all.

Can we hear today from the Deputy Premier what results ofthose discussions between the federal Conservatives and theprovincial Conservatives, what concrete results have we got fromtheir meetings that took place yesterday? We do not want to hearthe rhetoric anymore; we want to hear the bottom line results.

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Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, let me at theoutset say that one of the most positive outcomes of the meetingthat took place, not by telephone yesterday but directly, thatour Premier took to the Prime Minister of Canada, was the totaldissatisfaction of he and his government with the manner in whichwe were treated in the economic statement the day before as itrelated to Manitoba‑‑not by telephone but directly‑‑as did manymembers of his caucus take directly to the members of Parliamentthe same message of how disappointed we were in the treatment asto how Manitoba was dealt with in the economic statement of theday before.

I ask members opposite: What have they done to contact theirmembers of Parliament who represent Manitoba, to express in apositive way the interests of Manitobans? I believe, Mr.Speaker, that our Premier (Mr. Filmon) has taken the lead andshown the message that should be taken to the government inOttawa. What has he done other than to try and make somepolitical gains for him and his own party in this province?

Unemployment Rate

Provincial Comparisons

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wouldlike to thank the Deputy Premier for that challenge, because ourcaucus in Parliament this week called on the federal Conservativegovernment to resign and call a federal election. Have you donethe same? When you were breaking bread, when all your supporterswere breaking bread with their supporters, I wonder if you didthe same thing last night. I doubt it; I doubt it very much,because you have the same do‑nothing economic policies. Theyhave the same do‑nothing policies in this province as they havewith the federal Conservative government in Ottawa. That is whythe Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) gave us the hallelujahchorus about praise the Tories in Ottawa. Well, praise thosefederal Tories; they are following our do‑nothing course and thatis good for this country.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, why has Manitoba,after having the last place of all economic performance in 1991,why are we now in the first 11 months‑‑[interjection] Well, ifyou want to talk about 1992, we will be asking questions on it.Why, in 1992, with the unemployment rate that was announced,unfortunately, today, why does Manitoba now have in the first 11months of 1992 the highest unemployment rate for the first 11months of any year since we have been keeping statistics at about9.6 percent? Why has this government been in charge of anunemployment rate that is now the worst ever for the first 11months in 1992? What adjustments is this government going tomake to get people back to work again, to get Manitoba workingagain, to get our economy moving again instead of going downhillas it is right now?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, unfortunatelythe member does not tell the full story. The unemployment ratehas not increased in Manitoba. There are the same number ofpeople working this month over last month. What hashappened‑‑and it is a positive sign‑‑there are more people whoare entering the work force looking for employment. That is thefact, not the political rhetoric coming from the New DemocraticParty.

There are more people who are feeling positive aboutthemselves, who are feeling positive about the job opportunitiesin Manitoba, who are entering the work force. There are not lesspeople working, there are more people prepared to work and aretrying to enter the work force. That is what is happening, Mr.Speaker, and I would like the member to recognize that.

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Manufacturing Industry

Employment Decline

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Well, Mr. Seaker, hecannot tell us any specific projects that they have negotiated orhad an agreement with yesterday. They cannot explain why theunemployment rate right now is the highest it has ever been inthe province of Manitoba for the first 11 months in any year;they cannot tell us whether they have any plans to get peopleworking again.

I would like to ask another question of the Deputy Premier,and I am sure he will not answer this question either.

Why have we gone from 63,000 manufacturing jobs in Manitobain 1988, when the former government left office, why have wedecreased by 23 percent in November of 1992, down to 49,000manufacturing jobs?

Where are the productive jobs in our economy that thisgovernment promised? Why are they failing just like theirfederal cousins are failing in terms of economic performance inthis province?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): The member wants to talkabout manufacturing and manufacturing opportunities in Manitoba.The projected capital manufacturing investment opportunities thisyear projected over last year is an increase by some 51 percent.Total capital investment, year over year projected, is up some3.3 percent; private capital investment up some 8.9 percent ofthe projected, Mr. Speaker. The investment is going to come.The economic climate has been created and developed in Manitoba.

Let us remember what the old‑think of the New DemocraticParty is, the old‑think, that you tax people higher, take theirmoney to do what, Mr. Speaker? Jobs? The Leader of the NewDemocratic Party himself was the biggest critic of the NewDemocratic policy as it related to the apple‑polishing jobs thatwere created under the previous administration.

This government believes in creating real jobs throughprivate investment in manufacturing, through public investmentwhich continues to lead the country in public investment, and itwill continue under programs of my colleagues of the TreasuryBranch and the leadership of Premier Filmon and this government.

Churchill Rocket Range

Government Position

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): In the last throne speech therevival of the Churchill Rocket Range was rightly noted as anachievement that could play a major part in assisting theeconomic recovery of this province, and we hear the DeputyPremier talk about jobs and jobs and more jobs, and here is apotential for at least 200 jobs.

In this throne speech, the rocket range was not evenmentioned, and the people in the North were shocked to hearthat. The port was only slightly mentioned in the throne speech.

My question is to the Deputy Premier: Why was the rocketrange omitted in the throne speech, and has the province decidedit is no longer a priority for their government?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, let me assurethe member who asked the question‑‑I guess would have liked tohave run in Churchill but the former member chased him out ofthere, and it appears now we may see a shift within the ridingsof which some of the members opposite‑‑this could be hisnomination ploy as it deals with the rocket range.

This government has fully committed to support any efforts todevelopment or the redevelopment of the rocket range inChurchill. A commitment has been made in financing to supportthe economic development board of Churchill, to further look fora market opportunity for the usage of that rocket range. Thisgovernment is fully committed to the further development ofopportunities in the Port of Churchill area.

Port of Churchill

Funding Commitment

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, if thegovernment is so committed to assisting the community‑‑there wasa meeting in Churchill a couple of months ago, when the ministerswere up there with the mayor and council and promised $75,000 tomatch the community's funding. To this date, the community hasnot received one penny. Why?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, the commitmenthas been made and will be lived up to, to support the community.That was a meeting which my colleagues and I participated in.There are other developments which the Premier (Mr. Filmon)yesterday raised with the Prime Minister as they relate toChurchill to further enhance the port utilization.

Mr. Hickes: Mr. Speaker, when will this government commit morethan press releases to supporting the Port of Churchill and therocket range? Empty press releases are not enough. Thecommunity is asking, when will that money come?

Mr. Downey: Again, Mr. Speaker, there is a process that has tobe gone through, and when the process is completed, then in factthe funds will flow to live up to that commitment.

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Infrastructure Renewal

Government Initiatives

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.Speaker, we were delighted that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) finallygot angry with the Prime Minister. That has got to be some goodnews, that he finally can admit that the phone line ispermanently disconnected. That did not, of course, stop some ofthe Tory members from attending a dinner last night which putdollars into the coffers of the federal Tories to fight the nextelection campaign. So we wonder how much sophistry is in all ofthis official anger that is being expressed, but there is a muchmore critical issue here.

The critical issue is that apparently the Premier got angrywith the Prime Minister for not putting new dollars ininfrastructure into the province of Manitoba. So I have a verysimple question. What new monies is the Finance minister of thisprovince committing to infrastructure so that he can do what hemust do to get the economy moving in this province?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Firstly, Mr.Speaker, I would not want to divulge budgetary decisions. Themember knows fully well, because indeed she has voted against ourbudget for the last four years, we are the only province inCanada that has maintained its level in capital expenditureinfrastructure renewal through the last four years. That hascaused tremendously difficult decisions to be made in a wholehost of areas.

This government so strongly believes that one areagovernments cannot cut back is in capital expenditure areas. Wehave been true to our word, and consequently $100 millioncontinues to be spent in the highways program.

One of the difficulties that we have had with the NationalHighways Program, because we were held at such a high base, oneof the difficulties that we have had in the discussion of tryingto get through to the federal government, that we have been heldin a negative position vis‑a‑vis other provinces which haveslashed their capital spending. So my answer to the minister isno province in Canada has maintained a level of capitalexpenditure equivalent to the province of Manitoba.

Employment Creation

StrategyImplementation

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.Speaker, they cannot have it both ways. They thought they couldin opposition, by the way; one of their members actually saidthey could. The reality is they cannot. They cannot complainabout the federal government not putting any money intoinfrastructure in the province of Manitoba and not be prepared tofind additional monies in this province for the same thing.Despite what the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) had to say, thereare 9,000 more people unemployed, from 493,000 in October of1992, 484,000 in November of 1982. That is 9,000 people in onemonth. What is this Deputy Premier and his Finance ministergoing to do about giving those 9,000 and all of the others somehope for the future?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, againthe Leader of the Liberal Party has it wrong. Eleven thousandmore people are employed in Manitoba today as compared to Augustof '92. That is an enviable record, given the fact that we aregradually coming out of this recession that we are obviously in,given that we are a smaller province, given the fact that withincertainly the Water Services Board, given within the area ofHealth capital, given within the area of Highways capital, givenwithin the area of capital within Government Services that wecontinue to hold our spending whereas other provinces,particularly to the West, and I dare say in Ontario, have slashedtheir capital lines, I say to you, we have done a remarkable jobunder the circumstances.

We will continue to try and hold those levels of spending,Mr. Speaker, because we fully realize that that is probably thelast area that one government should attack. I would hope then,when we do, if we are successful in holding those levels, thatthe Leader of the third party will support the budget, becausethat has been the essence of our efforts over the last four years.

Unemployment Rate

Provincial Comparisons

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.Speaker, we cannot support a budget this year, as we did notsupport it last year and the year before, because it is patentlyfailing the needs of the people of this province. He likes tocompare August of '92 to November of '92. Let us compareNovembers. Let us compare November of 1987, when Manitoba had4.08 percent of Canada's labour force. We now have 3.87 percentof Canada's labour force. If we had just maintained a steadycourse, there would be 29,655 more jobs in the province ofManitoba. How does the Minister of Finance explain that?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker,unfortunately, the Leader of the third party, who has never donethis in the past, is beginning to follow some of the shallowlogic of her critic, the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Themember uses 1987 as a base. Three provinces in all of the 10across Canada have had an increase in population. All the otherseven have had a fall since '87, but the member and the Leader ofthe third party does not include that in her decision. Why? Ido not know. Is it because we had the highest tax regime in thecountry in 1988? Is that the reason? Is that the reason thatthe member opposite would not support all the budgets in thisprovince when we were trying to reduce the taxation? Is that thereason? I do not know.

I do know one thing, Mr. Speaker, that the member oppositehas seen fit not to support one of the taxation reductions inthis province, and I say to her, if she wants to go back to 1987,this government is prepared to go back and compare figures to1987. In the same fashion that six other provinces in Canadahave not been able to maintain their population, I would say toher, we are part of that same group.

Fishing Industry

Lake Winnipegosis

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): My question is to the Ministerof Natural Resources.

We have heard much about the desperate situation thatfishermen are facing with difficult economic situation. Lastweek I wrote a letter to the Minister of Natural Resourcesregarding the desperate situation on Lake Winnipegosis. Close to100 fishermen are in trouble because of low stocks and poor salesfor mullet. They are going to pull their nets this week, many ofthem, and they will have no income and are not able to drawunemployment insurance.

I want to ask the Minister of Natural Resources whether he isprepared to meet with these fishermen, whether he has, and whatis he going to do to address this desperate situation?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, Icertainly would want to indicate to the honourable member forSwan River that I am always prepared to meet with Manitobanswherever they may be. It is my hope that perhaps before the endof this year, and as soon as this House rises, that I will havean opportunity to visit that part of the province up to The Pasas well, where there are some specific concerns that wereexpressed to us by some of the local government officials.

I cannot put fish back into Lake Winnipegosis. I know thatwe have done, as governments‑‑and the previous administration hadintroduced different programs including the total abolition ofany fishing for a number of years‑‑five years, I believe‑‑to seewhether or not that would not restore the stocks to satisfactorylevels.

In fact, the past summer season showed some fairlyinteresting and encouraging harvests for these same fishermen,but, Mr. Speaker, I will agree to meet with the representativesof the fishermen of Lake Winnipegosis to see what programs orwhat help can be provided for them.

Ms. Wowchuk: I look forward to that because they have beenwaiting to hear from him, but I am surprised that the ministerwould say he cannot do anything about putting stocks back in.There was commitment to put stocks back in. This year no stockwas put back in.

CEDF Interest Rate Moratorium

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I want to ask the ministerresponsible for the CEDF if they will consider lowering theinterest rate or putting a moratorium on the interest rate forfishermen for one year to help them through this difficult time,because they are going to be killed by the amount of interestthey have to pay on their loans while they have no income.

Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for and charged with theadministration of The Communities Economic Development FundAct): Mr. Speaker, let me assure the member that my colleaguethe Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) has done his utmostin working with the fishermen of that particular area to try toenhance the fish stocks to relieve some of the difficulties. Itis my knowledge there has been some positive results from thework that has been done by my colleague.

It would be my intention to take a look at the difficultiesthat are being created because of this situation, but I cannotmake a commitment that I can get involved in any way in theoperations of a Crown corporation which is separate fromgovernment. I can take a look at it, Mr. Speaker, but cannotassure her that anything can be done about the interest ratesthat are charged.

Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, by the time they decide to look at it,it is going to be too late for these people. They are going togo broke, and they are going to go on welfare.

Fishing Industry

Market Development

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I want to ask this Minister ofNatural Resources whether his government is doing any research tofind sales or alternative uses for mullet. Did anybody in hisgovernment, while they were on the trip to China and the Orient,look for markets, and did they have any success in findingmarkets for mullet and other rough fish?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): The honourablemember raises an issue that has long been a difficulty for theinland fisheries here in Manitoba. I can report to her, though,that last year the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation marketedmore mullet than in any other previous years, in the millions andmillions of pounds. Regrettably these are still not firm markets.

My advice is that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) did speak directlyand certainly to offshore markets such as in China and otherplaces that could potentially be a stable market, a firm marketfor the fish. That is by far the biggest challenge that ourinland fisheries face, the thousands, indeed millions, of poundsof what are now referred to as rough fish that to date have yetto find a secure market.

I know that the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation hasworked diligently in this area, regrettably they have not‑‑theyhave had some successes, but they have been spotty successes.Those are not the kind of situations that fishermen can depend onand certainly pay off their debts with, but I do not take issuewith the member's comments. They are a challenge for both theFreshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and for me as Minister ofNatural Resources.

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The Green Plan

Funding Reduction

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the federalgovernment under the Conservatives is offloading itsresponsibility for environment restoration and protection. It iscutting programs to fund initiatives. It is ignoring its legalresponsibility to do environmental impact assessments, plus, thefederal Conservatives and the Liberals are prepared to give awayour sovereignty over our natural resources and environment byagreeing to the NAFTA agreement. We are still waiting for thisgovernment's position on NAFTA which will ensure we have theability to conserve our resources.

My question is for the Minister of Environment: Does theMinister of Environment support the federal strategy announcedtwo days ago to spend $4.4 billion on military helicopters andcut $60 million from The Green Plan, and if not, what is thisminister prepared to do about this misplaced priority?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): There was an awfullot of innuendo and I am not so sure how much fact in thatquestion. The environmental responsibilities that we undertakeprovincially to look after our environment, our naturalresources, we have no intention of straying away from ourresponsibility and making sure that we adequately do the job thatis required and expected of us by the people of this province.

Atomic Energy of Canada

Environmental Grant

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): How much money is being lost toManitoba with the cuts to The Green Plan, and how is it going toaffect such things as water services on band reserves inManitoba, hazardous waste cleanup, river cleanup, the modelforest program, joint environmental impact assessments or, as weheard in the question by my colleague, fish restocking?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, interms of environmental assessment, particularly, which isprobably the most critical part of that multidimensionalquestion, I can assure you that we will continue to be doing thejob as is expected of us. To my knowledge there is no change inthe way we will be dealing with environmental protection from aprovincial and national basis.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House ifAtomic Energy of Canada Ltd. has had any budget cuts and what thegrant of $25,000 from this government to AECL is for, under theauspices of an environmental grant?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I think I could answer that question,but I might be taking a bit of a guess. I will research thequestion and bring the answer back to the House.

Unemployed Help Centres

Funding

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): The heartlessness of the PrimeMinister is sometimes matched by his cousins here, the honourablemembers across the way.

Mr. Speaker, three years ago, the Minister of Family Services(Mr. Gilleshammer) eliminated funding for the CommunityUnemployed Help Centres which helped people cut through red tapein acquiring their unemployment insurance. This government hasalso reduced accessibility to Legal Aid.

My question for the Minister of Family Services is: With thedraconian changes to unemployment insurance benefits, what doesthis minister and the government plan to do to assist people whoare unemployed, assist them in ensuring that they get therightful claim, or is he going to allow them to go on socialassistance?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.Speaker, as you are well aware, our department is responsible forthat safety net which provides basic support to individuals whohave no other means of support. We have consistently raised thatamount of money on an annual basis to match the increase in thecost of living. At the same time, within our Department ofFamily Services and within that division within our department,we spend some $12 million a year to put forth programs forunemployed people who are on social assistance. We will continueto do that.

Our success rate, through the Single Parent Job Access andthrough the Gateway program and through the HROCs, has beenfairly substantial in moving people from social assistance intoemployment.

Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, the minister has just indicated that heis quite prepared to have people go on social assistance and thenthey may try to get them jobs after.

My question for the minister is: Will he act today toreinstate funding to Community Unemployed Help Centres throughoutManitoba, including in rural Manitoba, to ensure that thesepeople get their rightful claims and that they do not have to goon social assistance? Be proactive.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I can assure the member that we make many,many efforts to be sure that people do not go on socialassistance. We have had a tremendous increase, not in theprovincial rolls of social assistance but in the municipal rolls,the employables. We will continue to operate with those programsto provide training. As well, other departments withingovernment are providing training through education, throughlabour and other programs to work with unemployed Manitobans toget them back to work.

Unemployment Insurance Reform

Impact on Women

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, with a final supplemetary to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women(Mrs. Mitchelson): Can the minister tell us today, given thatwomen are very much affected by these unemployment insurancechanges, has she presented a brief to her cabinet colleagues andlobbied so that there will be some support services for womenhere in Manitoba so that in fact they cannot go on socialassistance? Will she ensure that they can get some help so theycan receive unemployment insurance benefits?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status ofWomen): Mr. Speaker, we indeed are very concerned about theplight of women who are unemployed in the province. We makeevery effort, and we have made efforts and special announcementsjust in the very recent past to help women who are on socialassistance to gain better access to the work force with allowingthem to keep the Pharmacard that they have while they are onsocial assistance, as they enter the work force and as they moveinto training to help them get back into the work force.

So, Mr. Speaker, we have initiatives that we have justannounced. There will be more initiatives in the future, and wewill work very hard with the women of Manitoba to try to get themback into the work force and off social assistance.

* (1050)

Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation

Agents' Fees

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I am very pleased to rise bypopular demand. I have a question this morning for the ministerresponsible for Autopac.

Yesterday the minister said several times in this House thathe would not want to limit or cap increases in Autopac agencyfees because the compensation package was now being renegotiatedwith the agents.

My question is: If that is the case, why did MPIC include aproposal to limit commission increases to 3 percent in itsoriginal submission to the Public Utilities Board and as referredto on page 21 of the Public Utilities Board order? ObviouslyAutopac was prepared to limit the increases to 3 percent until itwas overruled by cabinet.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration ofThe Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, itwas a regulatory proposal, a change in the regulations. Theprocess that was in place is as I have said, and the decision wasthat we would wait and see that process through.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, how can the minister justifyoverruling Autopac's decision to limit agency fee increases to 3percent when last week social service agencies, hospitals, schoolboards and other organizations received letters from this samegovernment saying they should expect no increase next year, oreven a cut?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, contrary to the way the previousadministration did business, this is a very open and transparentprocess. As a matter of fact, the PUB, in its response to theapplication of the corporation, indicated that as part of itsresponse and as part of its application next year, it willdemonstrate how it is that it will be mitigating any changes thatwould be as a result of this rate.

Mr. Leonard Evans: In this coming year, when a lot of people areasked to take a little less, will this minister explain to thepeople of Manitoba, why is there a difference in the government'sattitude towards hospitals and social service agencies on the onehand and the insurance agents on the other?

Why should agents get a 10 percent increase in commissionswhen health, education and social service agencies are gettingnothing?

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the rates did not change. This is incontrast, and I am sure one of the reasons the member is soupset‑‑I thought he was going to hurt himself the other day whenhe got up to ask the question‑‑is that they very clearly gotthemselves in a situation where they were behind the scenesmanipulating what was going on in the corporation. This is atransparent and public process, and very clearly everything is onthe table in terms of any changes that corporations think about.

Chris Davis

Wheelchair Purchase

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, Chris Davis,who has MS, was admitted to Victoria Hospital on May 7. At leastfive months ago doctors said he could be released pending thepurchase of a specialized wheelchair and suitable housingplacement. His unnecessary hospital stay has cost taxpayersapproximately $100,000 instead of $35,000, which includeswheelchair and housing, except for the fact that the Departmentsof Health, Family Services and Housing have been pointing fingersat one another and not taking responsibility.

Mr. Speaker, Chris has had on loan from the company involvedthis specialized wheelchair. That wheelchair will be shipped at5 p.m. today out of the province, meaning that Chris' delay interms of release into the community will go on for many moremonths and cost thousands of more dollars.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health who has takenresponsibility for health care reform, if he will show hiscommitment to that reform initiative and ensure that thewheelchair is purchased today and not shipped out of this country.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I, as youcan well appreciate, do not have all the details as described bymy honourable friend. I am prepared to take them from myhonourable friend, make sure that they are as presented and takewhat action I may be able to today.

Housing Placement

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, Chris andothers on his behalf have been working with all three departmentsinvolved and getting nowhere. I would like to know if theminister could give a commitment to the House and to Chris todaythat the wheelchair will not be shipped out of the province. Iwould like that commitment on Chris' behalf and that suitablehousing placement can be found immediately.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I gave ananswer to the first part of my honourable friend's question. Thesecond part of my honourable friend's question is a much longerprocess which this government, in co‑operation with FamilyServices and the ministry of Housing, has been proactivelyworking on‑‑resolution of those very special placement facilitiesfor Manitobans in that circumstance.

For my honourable friend to leave the impression that thisgovernment has done nothing belies the fact, because in fact thisgovernment is the first one in the history of the province, forinstance, to have a self‑managed care project for disadvantagedManitobans, disabled Manitobans to live independently in thecommunity under their own support and their own guidance andtheir own management. So my honourable friend ought not to saythis government does nothing. We have done substantial amountsin advancing the cause of those issues, those programs, thosepolicies, and to say we have not sort of does a disservice tothose professionals out there actively working on delivery ofthose kinds of programs.

Mental Health Care System

Reform Implementation

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is forthe Minister of Health.

This