LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, December 15, 1992

 

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

 

PRAYERS

 

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

           

PRESENTING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Robert Desjarlais, Nelson Pruder, Sue Stirling and others, requesting the Minister responsible for MPIC to consider implementing no‑fault auto insurance and bringing in other recommendations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acting on.

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of W. Goodier, J. McKinley, R. Nemy and others, requesting the government of Manitoba to consider taking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system, to maintain its comprehensive and universal nature and to implement the use of the health smart card.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster):  Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dr. Christine Dearman, Frank Zamkotowich, Les Walterson and others, requesting the government of Manitoba to pass the necessary legislation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba.

 

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS

 

Mr. Speaker:  I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema).  It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.  Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

            To the Legislative Assembly of the province of Manitoba

            The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

            WHEREAS The principles of health care, namely the universality and comprehensiveness, should apply to the Pharmacare program; and

            WHEREAS the Pharmacare program's effectiveness is being eroded; and

            WHEREAS in the most recent round of delisting of pharmaceuticals, approximately 200 have been delisted by the government of Manitoba; and

            WHEREAS the strict submission deadline for Pharmacare receipts does not take into consideration extenuating circumstances which may have affected some people; and

            WHEREAS pharmaceutical refunds often take six weeks to reach people; and

            WHEREAS a health "smart card" would provide information to reduce the risk of ordering drugs which interact or are ineffective, could eliminate "double prescribing," and could also be used to purchase pharmaceuticals on the Pharmacare program‑‑thereby easing the cash burden on purchasers.

            WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to consider taking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system to maintain its comprehensive and universal nature, and to implement the use of a health "smart card."

           

TABLING OF REPORTS

 

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship):  Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report for 1991‑92 for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, the Office of the Queen's Printer and the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, in the tradition of open government, I would like to table the report of the Manitoba Health Research Council and the Annual Report for the Manitoba Health Services Commission for 1991‑92.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling, today, Annual Reports for the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, the Manitoba Police Commission and the Victims Assistance Committee.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance):  Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Volume 1 and Volume 2 of the Public Accounts for 1991‑92.  I would also like to table the Quarterly Financial Report fourth quarter for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation; also the six month report for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission; and under the Legislative Assembly Act, I would like to table, as required, a report of amounts paid to members of the Assembly.

 

* (1335)

 

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

 

Bill 211‑The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that Bill 211, The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'evaluation municipale), be introduced and read for the first time.

 

Motion presented.

 

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, the people from the Swan River area have long been concerned about the operating costs of their municipal airport which is jointly owned.  I have been asked by the town of Swan River, and surrounding municipalities, that this bill be brought forward to address their concerns.

            The Neepawa airport enjoys the privileges of having their airport exempt from school and municipal tax, and the Swan River people are asking that the same privilege be extended to them so their airport can continue to operate and service the area.

 

Motion agreed to.

 

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

 

Immigrant Investor Fund Project List

Tabling Request

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).  We had written the Premier in 1991 dealing with the Immigrant Investor fund, raising a number of concerns to the Premier of the province.

            We have seen a number of controversies arise in the province of Manitoba.  We have Bob Kozminski and the car wash projects. We have dealings with one Mr. Gobuty that has come to public attention.  Even the Premier's name inadvertently was in the material, I understand. [interjection] No, I mean that sincerely‑‑We have, further, the Lakeview Development corporation that has been involved in various projects.

            I have asked the government before for information on the Immigrant Investor fund's specific proposals.  I would like to ask the Premier today to table all the projects that his government has approved as part of the Immigrant Investor fund in Manitoba.  I would ask the Premier to table the principles of those various projects, and who approved those projects in the government of Manitoba.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, as the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), I am sure is well aware, the Immigrant Investor Program is a federal program, a program started back in 1986, when he was part of the government of the day.

            Our responsibility, as a provincial government we brought in regulations back in 1990 at the time in terms of strengthening the program in terms of the economic impact on Manitoba.  We do an analysis in terms of the economic benefits to Manitoba, make certain recommendations to the federal government, who have the final approval in terms of any individual Immigrant Investor Programs, whether it is a project specific or a syndicated fund.

            The information that the honourable member is requesting, certainly information that is readily available, will gladly be made available.  There is certain confidential information that is provided to the two levels of government, obviously, that we cannot release, but any information that we can release without jeopardizing that confidentiality will in fact be made available.

 

* (1340)

 

Review Tabling Request

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  This charade that is going on between federal and provincial Conservatives on this project is becoming very questionable to us, Mr. Speaker.  We have correspondence signed by the acting deputy minister accepting or rejecting projects, acting deputy minister being one Mike Bessey, who of course is well known to members opposite in terms of his authority and his connections with the provincial government.

            So let the government not deny that they are not involved in accepting or rejecting various proposals.  In March of 1991, when we asked the Premier to review this material and review these projects, the minister said he will be conducting a full review of these projects.  In the fall of 1992, when again some controversy came to light, he said he will have a full investigation of these materials.

            I would ask the minister to table the two investigations that he conducted on behalf of Manitobans.  Mr. Speaker, this is a federal‑provincial program.  The federal government has tabled their federal report.  Why will this government and why will this Premier (Mr. Filmon) not table the material and the principles involved in their Immigrant Investor fund approval?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Going back to 1991, when some concerns were expressed and certainly myself being newly appointed to this portfolio, I had some concerns about certain aspects of the fund as it relates to the role that the federal government was playing, recognizing, as I have already outlined for this House, the rules and the regulations that do exist.  I, at that time, wrote the federal minister responsible in terms of expressing what I saw as our role and how I saw the federal government role and requesting them to clarify that that did in fact concur with what they should be doing.

            At the same time, we did an internal review of the Immigrant Investor Program, an analysis of all funds done at that particular point in time, but in light of the lack of action that I saw coming from the federal government, this year we instituted a private consulting group to come in and do an audit and a thorough review of the Immigrant Investor Program.  That audit is ongoing right now.  In fact, the House is fully aware of that. It has been carried through the media and so on.  The recommendations from that particular audit have not been tabled with me yet.

            I am told‑‑I have had conversations with the consultants that I can expect them very shortly.  As soon as I receive those recommendations, I will gladly table them, make them public, and we will deal with them, Mr. Speaker.  It is because of the concerns that we have had in terms of the role that the federal government is playing in terms of compliance on this program that we have taken the initiative to retain the professional assistance necessary to deal with that very important issue.

Application Approval Process

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  Well, Mr. Speaker, you will excuse us if we are a little concerned about the third review that this minister has promised us.

            I would like to ask the minister a very straight question. This is a federal‑provincial program.  He keeps throwing the hot potato to the federal government.  The federal Tories keep throwing it back to this government.  Does the province approve or not approve various projects that go ahead in Manitoba, yes or no?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism):  I have already outlined the procedure to the honourable Leader of the Opposition.  I will do so one more time.

            We make a recommendation on applications to the federal government after reviewing the economic benefits, as I have already outlined, the impact to Manitoba's economy in terms of job creation, expenditures in our province.  In terms of the ultimate, final authority of approval of any Immigrant Investor Program, it lies with the federal government.  We make a recommendation based on our analysis in terms of economic benefits.  The final approval of the project lies with the federal government.

            I should again remind the Leader of the Opposition, who was a part of this program back in 1986 and I believe at that time did not even bring in any rules, regulations and guidelines, we in May of 1990 tabled Immigrant Investor Program Manitoba guidelines.  We are one of the few provinces that at least have a program in place in doing an analysis of economic impact and benefits to our province, but the final authority lies with the federal government.  It is because of our concern that the job is not being done adequately by the federal government in terms of compliance that we have taken the action to call in auditors to review the Immigrant Investor Program, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

            Mr. Speaker, the province must approve it before it can go ahead, and the federal government must approve it.  I wish the government would be straightforward with the people of Manitoba. We have correspondence saying we do not approve this project, signed by Mike Bessey, so I think the government should be honest with the people.  If you read the Premier's Estimates from 1991, he acknowledges that.

            Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the Premier.  The government of Manitoba is involved with a new project dealing with one of the proponents, one of the developers at North Portage Corporation dealing with a proposed hotel utilizing the Immigration Investor fund.  This same developer and this same promoter has had a number of potential bankruptcies.  A number of properties have gone into receivership.  A number of Manitobans, a number of Manitoba families are potentially worried about losing their security, their income, their savings.

            I would like to ask the Premier, how can the government be approving one fund for the same developer where there are all these potential lawsuits and risks with the same developer in other projects in Manitoba?

 

* (1345)

 

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, again, I have to remind the honourable member‑‑and I would like to think that he would understand the rules and regulations‑‑of the fact that this was a program that he was a part of a government at the time when it was introduced.  The fact that when he refers to us approving or rejecting, we make that as a recommendation to the federal government.  They make the final decision whether or not to approve any Immigrant Investor Program, Mr. Speaker.

            In terms of the company that the honourable Leader is referring to, they are a part of this audit that is ongoing.  I have already indicated I will table the recommendations, and we will deal with the recommendations when that is available, Mr. Speaker.

            In terms of the larger concern that arose on Friday with the situation with the Sheraton, we have contacted the federal government.  This week, officials will be sent in from both the federal government and the provincial government to deal with that very company and the programs that are currently in place under the Immigrant Investor Program.

Mr. Doer:  Mr. Speaker, the minister has not answered any one of the four questions we have asked.  He has not made public the information of the project proposals.  He has not made public the principles of the project.  He has not told us who approves it. He has tried to throw the hot potato.  The hot potato is going from the Premier to the minister to the federal government‑‑instead of accepting any responsibility at all.

            Mr. Speaker, my further question to the Premier is:  The fund has approved the project at North Portage, the minister has not advised us of that status here today, but we have the minister being quoted in the media saying that they have, quote, approved buying Lakeview Sheraton shares with the Bison Fund.  Who approved that, Mr. Speaker?  Was there money approved, first of all, and who approved that purchase?

Mr. Stefanson:  Mr. Speaker, the original Bison Fund, which is a syndicated fund under the Immigrant Investor Program‑‑and I am sure the honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware there are two types of funds.  There is Project Pacific, and there is a syndicated fund.

            The Bison Fund would have gone through the process that I have already outlined once or twice‑‑I will not repeat it‑‑where it comes through our government in terms of my department in terms of the economic benefits to Manitoba and it goes onto the federal government for final approval of the syndicated fund.

            In terms of individual projects within a syndicated fund, they come into my department in terms of an analysis once again of economic impact, job retention, job maintenance, whether there are any capital dollars being expended, what the dollars are in fact being utilized for, Mr. Speaker.  That analysis was done on that particular investment, and at that time it met the guideline.

            I should point out to the Leader of the Opposition, with any syndicated fund the ultimate responsibility lies with the fund managers.  In this case, the Bison Fund would have an investment in the Sheraton.  They will have a series of other investments. Those decisions are made by a fund manager in terms of which investments they feel will get the greatest return for that particular fund.  We do an analysis on each individual application in terms of economic impact in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker.

 

Review Tabling Request

 

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition):  I have a final question, Mr. Speaker.

            We have the whole issue of the Kozminski projects and the Maple Leaf Fund, with directors of one fund being involved in decisions that are in their own companies.  We have allegations in the public arena dealing with Michael Gobuty.  We have all kinds of issues dealing with one proposal going forward in the Immigrant Investor fund at the North Portage site and other money being approved for the other site by the government, admitted to in this question.

            Will this government now table all the information?  He has conducted two reviews allegedly; will he table those reviews with the public, Mr. Speaker, with this Chamber?  Can we refer that information to one of our committees of the Legislature, the Economic Committee of the Legislature, so all members of this Legislature can ensure that the good name of Manitoba as a good place to invest for Manitobans and others will be protected and safeguarded and not be in jeopardy with the government . . .

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I wish just once that the Leader of the Opposition would listen to an answer in terms of how this program functions, that it is a federal program that applies not only to Manitoba but to every province within Canada.  We are a part of the process and I have outlined very clearly what our role is and what the federal government's role is.

            I have also indicated to the Leader of the Opposition that we had concerns that the federal government is not performing their function.  For those very reasons we called in professional consultants to do a review of the program, to make recommendations to us that we can forward to the federal government to get some action in terms of dealing with the whole issue of compliance.  That process is ongoing right now.  As soon as I receive the recommendations I will make them public and we will deal with them.

 

* (1350)

 

Social Assistance

Food Allowance

 

Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition):  Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health.  Yesterday I raised questions about a recent report called An Action Plan for Food Security for Manitobans.  The report very clearly indicated that the portion of social assistance received by social assistance recipients with infants was woefully inadequate.  It stated that the rate of $84 per month to feed an infant is significantly below what is required, which is $134 per month.

            Mr. Speaker, the minister's health care reform plan states, and I quote:  Many of the millions of dollars that Manitobans invest each year treating illness could be used more effectively and tremendous amounts of human suffering averted by more effective management of the key determinants of health.

            Can the minister tell the House in light of this stated belief with respect to illness prevention whether or not he has contacted the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to push for an increase in food allowances for infants?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question, because within the ministry of Health part of the educational program that we provide to Manitobans and in this case to mothers expecting to bring into the world their families, during their term of pregnancy, we provide the kind of information that we think is very necessary to avoid certain hazards such as smoking, such as drinking, to maintain their nutrition, and then after those mothers commence care in the home for their child, we attempt to provide probably some of the best nutritional guidance that is available in Canada through my Healthy Public Policy division in the ministry of Health.

            Mr. Speaker, the area that we are attempting to put increased emphasis on in terms of education is the group of young women that my honourable friend refers to, that being young single mothers and often on social assistance.  The initiative and the effort is to provide guidance on how they can make significantly enhanced choices around the nutrition of themselves and their child, and I see that as a significant effort which can achieve the results within the current budget, Sir.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, but you can give them all the nutritional guidance in the world.  You can teach them, you can instruct them, you can aid and abet their learning, but if you do not give them enough money for food, they cannot feed their children.

            Can the Minister of Health tell this House why it is acceptable to this government that infants get inadequate amounts of money to be fed in this province?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question because I reject the premise on which it is founded.

Mrs. Carstairs:  Mr. Speaker, since the study very clearly showed that it requires $134 a month to feed an infant, and the budget of this government for social assistance for a mother who has an infant child is $84 a month, how does the minister suggest she should in fact give a nutritionally sound diet to that child?

Mr. Orchard:  Through exactly the process of education, working with nutritionists, through the process that we have in place that we are enhancing and reinforcing.

            Now I realize that education is a laughable matter to the member from Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), but it is not in this government, and we intend to help wherever possible in providing information, counselling, guidance to individuals who need the kind of skills that allow them to within their budgets make proper and appropriate nutritional choices.  That may be a laughing matter to members of the opposition, but it is not a laughing matter to this government or the citizens of Manitoba, Sir.

 

Freedom Of Information

Interference

 

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

            We have been advised that the Premier's staff routinely censors and controls information requests under The Freedom of Information Act from the media and others.  Can the Premier indicate to this House why, contrary to the spirit and letter of the law, his political staff interfere in the freedom of information process?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier):  I reject categorically the allegation that was made by the member for Kildonan.  We have in place a Freedom of Information Act which this government proclaimed when it was left dormant for almost three years by the New Democrats.  We have obeyed and abided by that legislation to the letter of the law and I challenge him to prove otherwise.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, why would a designated information officer be writing to the Premier's press secretary, Barb Biggar, asking for her advice as to the information that was released?  I will table a letter to Barb Biggar from that information official indicating that.

Mr. Filmon:  A person can consult anyone a person chooses for advice on a matter.  The reality is that this government is abiding by the letter of the legislation absolutely and whoever asks whom about what matters are able to be released publicly, it is challengeable to the Ombudsman.  If you think something has been done wrong, challenge it to the Ombudsman.

Mr. Chomiak:  Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the Premier is:  Will the Premier now admit that this happens on a routine basis, and where does his press secretary derive the authority to be an intermediary under The Freedom of Information Act and to give advice as to information that is being released?

 

* (1355)

 

Mr. Filmon:  The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the letter of the law is being maintained, and if anybody‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.

Mr. Filmon:  The spirit of the letter‑‑if you do not believe that it is being abided by, you have methods of redress.  You simply take it to the Ombudsman and the Ombudsman will arbitrate. Dozens of cases have been taken there.  Unlike New Democrats, we abide by the law.

 

Child Tax Benefit

CRISP Program Recipients

 

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington):  Mr. Speaker, the Child Related Income Support Program, otherwise known as CRISP, is according to its own brochure a provincial income supplement program providing monthly benefits to low‑income Manitoba families to assist them with the cost of raising children.  Currently there are over 6,300 families and just under 15,000 children in the province of Manitoba taking advantage of this program.  The net income ceiling to earn the maximum benefit of $30 a month per child currently in legislation is $12,384 a year.

            My question to the Minister of Family Services is:  Will he confirm that by an Order‑in‑Council dated December 9, the definition of income now includes the child tax benefit from the federal initiatives Brighter Futures?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Family Services):  Mr. Speaker, the CRISP program was put in place to give additional funds to what is termed the working poor.  The CRISP program takes into consideration the income that working families have through their employment and through other forms of income that are made available to them.

Ms. Barrett:  Will the minister confirm that due to the change in this regulation, the definition of income will mean that upwards of half of the children of the working poor in Manitoba will get up to 50 percent less in CRISP benefits, because of the inclusion of the child tax benefit in the definition of income?

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, the regulations take into consideration the income through all sources that individuals who are accessing that program have.  If there is additional income that comes to that family either through employment or other sources, that is taken into consideration in determining the level of benefit that they will receive.

Ms. Barrett:  Yes, I thank the minister for confirming my second question.

            Will the minister now, in light of that confirmation that there is upwards of a 50 percent cutback in potential benefits, which are small enough as is, rescind the move made by himself and his government?  Will he guarantee that this is just not the first step in clawing back resources from the poorest Manitoba families, which this will in effect do, and that the social allowances recipients‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Mr. Gilleshammer:  Mr. Speaker, the member is clearly mixing her issues here.  The CRISP benefits are for people who are employed and whose income we consider in awarding those benefits.  The question that her colleague raised yesterday in regard to the child tax benefit is an issue that is before the government.  I have indicated very clearly in the House this week that we are analyzing the information coming from the federal government and will be making that decision in due course.

 

Health Care System

Surgery Waiting Lists

 

Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples):  Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.  Yesterday we received the report from the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation.  The report pointed out that some hospitals are more efficient than others with respect to length of stay.  From the study, the minister could draw the conclusion that more efficiency can allow more bed closures.  For some procedures the waiting period is currently too long and access is not good enough.

            The question is an important policy decision for this government.  Will this government use this policy of greater efficiency to justify more bed closures, or will they convert the greater efficiency to decrease the waiting period for many surgical procedures in this province?

           

* (1400)

 

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question because that report‑‑and I only want to correct my honourable friend modestly on one point.  It was not my recommendation that 150‑200 beds could be closed or retired from service.  That was the advice of the scientists who analyzed the data for the eight Manitoba hospitals.

            Mr. Speaker, what I suggest to my honourable friend is, that report offers us to do both that which my honourable friend talks about, because clearly in any system, and health care is no exception, if there is an ineffective use of resources within that health care system then it only follows as day follows night that those resources are not being used to provide resolution to the kind of problems my honourable friend addresses.

            That is why the progress and the process of reform and change in the health care system in Manitoba has the end goal, despite some critics who do not understand change, that the opportunity is there for Manitoba within the existing budget to provide better service and even, Sir, the opportunity to provide enhanced levels of services within the given budget, if we manage and take advice from scientists, from doctors, from nurses, from other professionals in the system who recognize where we can make better choices on use of the resource.

            So I suggest to my honourable friend that both initiatives can flow from implementation of the findings of this scientific study.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us, in the Health Action Reform Plan on page 32 there was a promise that on the waiting list management in orthopedic surgery, cardiovascular surgery and angioplasty, oncology and cataract surgery, we would have a report by the end of this month.  Can the minister tell us when we will have that report?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I cannot provide my honourable friend with that advice this afternoon, but I will endeavour to provide that advice to him possibly in tomorrow's Question Period, because that issue has been under review and study for the better part of seven or eight months now by the professional group that is hoping to give us advice on how we can proceed in resolution of some of those issues.

Mr. Cheema:  Mr. Speaker, can the minister now combine the inference from both studies, if he is going to table it tomorrow, and come up with the answer to decrease the waiting period for many surgical procedures that will enhance their policy of efficiency to cut the delay in surgical procedures?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, that may well be the initiative that we are able to undertake when we combine both studies and a number of others, but I cannot preclude the kind of advice that we may get from Dr. Naylor and the study group that is looking at the waiting list and the procedures that are mentioned by my honourable friend.

            I simply give my honourable friend this kind of an assurance, that when we have received sound advice from the professionals we have tended to try, to the degree possible, implementation of that advice into the way that we deliver health care, with the end goal being something I think all of us share, the preservation and protection of our health care system.

 

Fishing Industry

Lake Winnipegosis

 

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River):  Mr. Speaker, on December 4, I raised with the Minister of Natural Resources the issue of the problem that fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis were facing.  That situation has worsened, and fishermen are now pulling their nets and have no income.

            The minister said on December 4 that he would meet with these people.  I want to ask him if the date of that meeting is set and when he plans to be with fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis to address this serious situation.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):  Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to advise the honourable member for Swan River that it is my intention to travel to the community of The Pas and on my way back stop in at the community of Winnipegosis and others as well on December 21 and 22.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I hope that all fishermen are notified about that meeting and that they can all have input.

            The minister also said that he cannot put fish back into Lake Winnipegosis, however, there is a stocking program that is outlined in here.  I want to ask the minister why, since he is well aware of the situation on Lake Winnipegosis, his department chose not to put any stock back into Lake Winnipegosis, but chose to stock many other lakes when he knows that there is a problem on that lake?

Mr. Enns:  Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to take that question as notice and, certainly, in meeting with the fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis, I will have some fishery staff available or with me to answer some of these questions.

Ms. Wowchuk:  Mr. Speaker, I am appalled that the minister would not know that there was no stock put into Lake Winnipegosis after the number of times this issue has been raised.

            When is the minister going to take seriously the problem on Lake Winnipegosis, all of the issues that have been raised many times, and look at a way that these people can continue to make a living, or is he intending to make a welfare state of all of those people on Lake Winnipegosis?

Mr. Enns:  Mr. Speaker, it is that time of the year where we are all called upon to exhibit good will towards all persons, and I do not take any credit, but my department had a restocking program in place for Lake Winnipegosis fisheries.  It was stopped by her fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis.

 

Nutrition Counselling Services

Government Commitment

 

Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood):  Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health stands in this House every day and attempts to lead the people of Manitoba into believing that health reform is under control.  Today, he talked about his department giving the best nutritional guidance to single mothers and children.  To the unknowing he sounds convincing, but if you know what is going on in his department, we would be aware that in fact he does not have the staff resources to provide this type of service within his department because since he became minister, the number of positions available to do this type of work has been cut.

            Can the minister explain to the House today, how does he explain to mothers and children, how are they going to get this best nutritional guidance‑‑and I quote him from today‑‑if in fact he does not have the resources to carry out that important job?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Well, Mr. Speaker, I do realize that the ability to deliver that program was diminished as of the by‑election this fall.

            Mr. Speaker, through reprioritization of the services we provide to meet the most urgent needs, I think it is fair to say that in today's environments, the demands exceed the ability of any government anywhere in Canada to meet the needs and, therefore, we are into prioritizing, meeting the most urgent needs.  That is successfully being undertaken.

            I submit, Sir, that in this province we are legions ahead of others in terms of meeting targeted needs for various groups in society that need a better degree of educational support, of counselling and other initiatives which can contribute to their wellness and avoid and delay and permanently prevent their necessity to access our health care system, as fine as it is, Sir.

 

* (1410)

 

Ms. Gray:  Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) tell us why he insists that this province is legions ahead, when in fact that very food security report of which people who are part of that report are actually‑‑people in his department have suggested that Manitoba lags behind other provinces in providing nutritional services here in Manitoba, so I suggest that his information is incorrect.

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I guess that in some areas of investigation maybe that conclusion might be reached, but I would simply like to share with my honourable friend, because I know my honourable friend wants information, that here is a December 14, 1992, Canadian Press wire service out of Victoria.

            The topic is a Judith Korbin, who has been retained by the government of British Columbia to examine their health care system.  One of the things she says in here is that British Columbia has the third highest rate of growth in health care spending among all provinces, behind Manitoba first, Saskatchewan second.

            That is a different piece of information than the one my honourable friend has given today.

Ms. Gray:  Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard):  Can the Minister of Health tell us when he will actually put into place some prevention services, including nutritional guidance, for these mothers as part of his health reform plan?  Because in the initial documents and committees that were established, it was an afterthought, and it took people such as‑‑

Mr. Speaker:  Order, please.  The honourable member has put her question.

Mr. Orchard:  I hear ringing through my mind certain melodies. How does that go?  I forget the words, Sir.

            Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend that I very much valued her sincere and dedicated contribution to the ministry of Health, but, Sir, to say that she was the only one that ever made a positive suggestion is absolutely wrong.  I have thousands of caring professionals in my department who work diligently every day to provide guidance to this ministry, to provide progressive policies for the reform and change in the health care system, and, Sir, for her to take credit for it solely and singly is not accurate.

 

Hospital Boards Staff Nurse Representation

 

Ms. Judy Wasylycia‑Leis (St. Johns):  Mr. Speaker, last March at the Manitoba Nurses' Union annual general meeting, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) indicated support for staff nurse representation on hospital boards.  Since then, little progress has been made; few staff nurses have been appointed or elected to hospital boards.

            In fact, in one case, in Swan River Valley Hospital, staff nurses made such a request and this serious proposal was met with an anonymous letter from a board member saying:  In my view putting a union nurse on the board would be as beneficial as placing a fox to watch the chicken coop. [interjection]

            I hope the government members are laughing at the ridiculousness of that statement, and not because they support the attitude.

            I want to ask the Minister of Health if he will indicate to this particular board that he does not condone such a position, and that in fact he clearly supports the representation of nurse staff on hospital boards.

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health):  Mr. Speaker, I am troubled by those kinds of statements being made by my honourable friend which allege certain accusations by anonymous and unsigned letters.  I really do not think that I can react to an anonymous statement by some unsigned individual because one certainly does not know (a) the source of such comments, et cetera.

            Let me deal directly with the issue that my honourable friend raised, as I have dealt directly with those members of the Manitoba Nurses' Union who have chosen to write.  Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to any citizen in Manitoba serving on a board of any of our health care institutions.  That opportunity, that freedom, that right is open to any citizen of this province, including staff nurses who belong to the Manitoba Nurses' Union. Nothing in the policies and legislation of this government prevents that membership, Sir.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, the minister should try imagining the hurt of nurses in Swan River Valley Hospital when they receive this kind of a note.

            I want to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) a very straightforward question.  Will he clearly send out a directive to all hospital boards indicating that it is a policy of this government to have staff nurse representation on all such boards?  Would he put a timetable to it and make sure that that action is followed up?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I guess my honourable friend, in the comfort of opposition, is now creating health policy for the NDP, I might say, health policy that when my honourable friend sat in cabinet and had the ability to send that directive to the boards, did not.  The question is:  Why not, when she had the chance?

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis:  Mr. Speaker, my question to this Minister of Health is why this minister can make rhetorical statements on one occasion and refuse to back it up with policies and directions or regulations.  I will ask if he can do at least as much as the provincial government of Alberta has done by sending out a directive to all hospital boards to ensure the election of a staff nurse appointed to those boards by a certain date with appropriate follow up from the provincial government.  Could he do at least that much?

Mr. Orchard:  Mr. Speaker, I intend to remain consistent with the policy that was in place when I walked into this office in May 1988.

           

Canadian Wheat Board

Barley Marketing

 

Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin):  Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay).  The Conservative government continues to implement deregulation philosophies and policies even while the world is falling down around them.  The latest casualty, it seems, would be Agriculture Canada and its agencies, including the Canadian Wheat Board.

            One of the specific recommendations that is being made by the federal minister in a report that was released recently was that the Wheat Board would employ a dual marketing system for barley. Barley would no longer be under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board, and that is of deep concern to us.

            Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he shares that concern with the proposals regarding the marketing of barley under the Wheat Board and what direct action he is taking to ensure that that concern is communicated and in fact that that will not be implemented by the federal government.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr. Speaker, we are talking about selling agricultural products out of western Canada into the United States, and we have been exceedingly successful in that in the last number of years, particularly since January 1, 1989, when articles are starting to come out like this:  Free trade is good medicine.  It interviews people all across Canada. In agriculture, we have been very successful in penetrating that market.

            Mr. Speaker‑‑[interjection] You have something against exports?

            We have built processing plants across western Canada based on selling into the U.S. market.  We have had free trade in agriculture for a long time.  It has just picked up in the last few years because there is a greater sense of certainty that we cannot be stopped at the border due to the dispute‑settling mechanism in the agreement.

            The member talks particularly about barley, and we have increased sales of barley to the United States in the last few years.  We know there are niche markets in the United States for more and more barley to be sold.  My understanding is the federal government is going to have a study done, determine what those niche markets are, have everybody who has an interest in those markets be present on the board, and an analysis will be done. We will be looking forward with interest to the results of that process.

Mr. Speaker:  Time for Oral Questions has expired.

 

* (1420)

 

ORDERS OF THE DAY

 

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader):  Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill 4, please.

 

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS

 

Bill 4‑The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act

 

Mr. Speaker:  On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act; Loi sur l'ouverture des commerces de detail les jours feries‑‑modifications temporaires, standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon.

Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon):  Mr. Speaker, this issue has, I guess, so many different aspects that have to be dealt with in the course of debate that I am afraid that I am going to take‑‑[interjection] As I was saying, this debate is such a controversial issue that I think it is going to require a very lengthy review of all of the issues that need to be discussed prior to implementing such a radical change for most Manitobans.

            I want to begin by saying that although the government has announced this as a trial period, and perhaps the minister responsible or some other